Alternator Capacity

[640Newton]

Could someone please educate me on how much power the alternator on a TDV8 RRS can generate? How do I know if I am putting too much load on the alternator?

I have a dual battery fitted to the RRS - so it's charging two batteries in the car.
I have an Engel 40L compressor fridge in the boot - so it's running that.
I have a UFH radio installed - so it's running that.
I tow an camper trailer that has dual 105Ah deep cycle batteries being charged via an Anderson plug (the camper has a CTEK XS15000 charger) - so it's charging that.
Sometimes my daughter likes to watch a DVD in the back - so it's running that.
At various times we'll be charging phones, iPods etc etc.
How much can the alternator handle?

[Doctor W]

Could someone please educate me on how much power the alternator on a TDV8 RRS can generate? How do I know if I am putting too much load on the alternator?

I have a dual battery fitted to the RRS - so it's charging two batteries in the car.
I have an Engel 40L compressor fridge in the boot - so it's running that.
I have a UFH radio installed - so it's running that.
I tow an camper trailer that has dual 105Ah deep cycle batteries being charged via an Anderson plug (the camper has a CTEK XS15000 charger) - so it's charging that.
Sometimes my daughter likes to watch a DVD in the back - so it's running that.
At various times we'll be charging phones, iPods etc etc.
How much can the alternator handle?

I'm sorry that I can't give you a figure for the max. output rating of a RRS TDV8, it may be different for the Luxury model ( more electrical equipment), but I feel pretty safe in saying you're nowhere near its maximum draw....

The maximum output would be well in excess of 100 Amps, more in the mid-range between 100 and 200 Amps as a minimum I would think.

[640Newton]

Thanks Doctor W, that's what I was hoping to hear. I want to add two rear cameras, one for the car and one on the back of the camper trailer, but before I do it I wanted to make sure it didn't have further implications from a power point of view.

[drivesafe]

Hi newton, I’m not sure of the exact size alternator you have in the RRS, but it will either be the 140 or the 180 amp alternator.

In either case, you can not overload an alternator so it doesn’t matter how many or what size batteries you have and how low they are when charging them while driving.

Even with other accessories and a few driving lights thrown in, if you apply a current load higher than your alternator’s maximum output at that time, the alternator’s output voltage drops.

As voltage drops, so does the maximum current being applied to the alternator. Eventually, as the voltage continues to drop, the amount of current being applied equals the maximum the alternator can produce so the voltage stabilises.

As all your batteries charge, the current demand reduces and as such, the alternator voltage increases until the voltage rises back to it’s normal operating level.

So theoretically, you can add as much load as you need and your alternator adjusts it’s charging to accommodate the loads being applied to it.

[Blknight.aus]

the only time that becomes a problem is when your battery charging requirement drops the voltage output to below 10.5V and that shuts the ECU down.

IF you're dumb enough to let that many expensive batteries get that flat then best you install one of drivesafes management systems first. the later systems are not dumb as a post like the ones I knock in for about $30 (and I wouldnt install one on anything of better tech than a D1 Maybe a td5 deefer) and will drop off the aux charging when the main battery voltage drops too low That keeps the main battery alive, the ecu happy and the engine running till the alternator charges the main battery up and then it starts all over again untill theres enough oomph in the aux batteries to not suck the guts out of an alternator.

I did the cape with a 35A alternator running 2x n70ZZ an old engle fridge, UHF, car radio, charging a GPS phone, running up to 3 fuel pumps, driving my inverter occasionally and the mother of all 12v compressors as required I only needed to be tow started once due to dead batteries and that was because my glow plug relay welded itself shut and put a 90A draw on the batteries that I didnt work out till the next day when the batteries were down to about 4v.

[Wilbur]

DVD players, rear view cameras, GPS's, phone and camera chargers etc take absolutely stuff-all power from the battery or alernator. Any item that can be run portable with a carry-around battery will be virtually invisible to a car electric system.

Fit as many such gadgets as you want and there will be no problem.

The possible problem could be if all three auxiliary batteries are low in charge there will be a high current drawn from the alernator when the engine is started up, and this could go on for some time until the batteries are at least partially charged.

I don't know about modern alternators, but those fitted a few years ago would have their lives shortened considerably by this constant overload. I expect most of todays would also. I would be very surprised if the current rating is a continous rating, more likely a peak rating.

The very best thing you can do is to get a C-tek, Redarc, GSM or similar DC to DC convertor that will give you proper three stage charging for your 'house' batteries and limit the current that can be drawn from the alternator. The batteries will become more fully charged (by a BIG amount) and your alternator will be safe.

Cheers,

Paul

[drivesafe]

Hi Wilbur and sorry but that is absolute crap, put out by sellers of this junk as a means to try to justify why unsuspecting potential customers should part with large sums of hard earned money to buy something that does not work anywhere near as well as your good old alternator.

Furthermore in Newton’s case, with the number of batteries he has, one of these DC-DC devices would actually cause his batteries to be in a much, MUCH low charged state at the end of a days drive than what his alternator can charge them to.

These DC-DC devices can fully charge batteries but in almost every case, they require a much longer driving time to do so and when an alternator can do it better and in a shorter drive time and for a much lower initial set up cost, why would anyone want to waste time and money on a system that will not only take longer to charge batteries but will ultimately end up shortening the batteries life span.

One more point, it takes a VERY long time for constant high current loads to have any effect on an alternators operating life span and this includes old versions. You would need to drive all day every day over a long period of time with a constant high current before an alternator would fail.

[Blknight.aus]

I'll back drivesafe on that...

The only time I can think of that even a half aware tourer would want to setup one of those DC-DC chargers is

a, when hes got 240 plug in charging fitted to the tow vehicle and he never disconnects the trailer from the tractor

b, when hes got a trailer battery configuration that is higher voltage than the tractor (and even then Id still be trying to con him into fitting a seperate alternator)

[Wilbur]

Hi Wilbur and sorry but that is absolute crap, put out by sellers of this junk as a means to try to justify why unsuspecting potential customers should part with large sums of hard earned money to buy something that does not work anywhere near as well as your good old alternator.

Furthermore in Newton’s case, with the number of batteries he has, one of these DC-DC devices would actually cause his batteries to be in a much, MUCH low charged state at the end of a days drive than what his alternator can charge them to.

These DC-DC devices can fully charge batteries but in almost every case, they require a much longer driving time to do so and when an alternator can do it better and in a shorter drive time and for a much lower initial set up cost, why would anyone want to waste time and money on a system that will not only take longer to charge batteries but will ultimately end up shortening the batteries life span.

One more point, it takes a VERY long time for constant high current loads to have any effect on an alternators operating life span and this includes old versions. You would need to drive all day every day over a long period of time with a constant high current before an alternator would fail.

Yeah well, Hi Drivesafe, I am sorry too, but what I wrote was not crap. I fully support your right to be the expert, but nonetheless I will justify what I wrote.

1. The very best deep cycle batteries still have greatly shortened life span if discharged below 50%. Some AGM makers claim better, but they have not been justified yet.
2. Unless the house batteries are EXACTLY the same chemistry as the car battery and alternator are set up for, AND there is absolutely NO loss in the leads between the car battery or alternator and the house battery, the house battery will seldom get beyond a 70~80% charge level.
3. Assuming that one wants full life span out of the house battery and so will only discharge to 50%, then because one is only charging to 75% one can only use about 25% of the batteries capacity. Thus your 100 amp hour battery is good for 25 amp hours for example.
4. Fitting a proper three stage charger will allow the batteries to charge to close to 100%, even if there is loss from the leads between the alternator and the DC-DC charger.
5. You are quite right, in Newtons case, the DC - DC chargers I mentioned are all relatively low current devices, around 25 amps. At start-up, with the batteries well discharged, there will INITIALLY be a very high charge current when fed direct from the alternator. However, after a very short time that charge current, even for two 100 amp-hour batteries, will drop well below the 25 or so amps that the DC-DC convertors will supply. This will happen because the voltage is not high enough to allow the batteries to draw that much current once they begin to take on a surface charge. The DC-DC convertors give the extra voltage that allows the batteries to continue to take charge after their initial savage hunger is satisfied.
6. Anyone with an amp gauge in their vehicle can prove this to themselves. With the engine stopped, switch on your heqadlights for about a quarter of an hour, turn them off and start the engine. Note the very high charge current, which after a few minutes drops right back to a low level.

I fully accept your right to be the expert, you certainly do have the points on the board, but by a hasty reply to my post you have decimated the important part of what I wrote - that is, that low power devices can be used as much as one wishes without any risk to the car battery system. That really was the thrust of the original question.

No offence meant, and lets all still be friends.

Cheers,

Paul

[Wilbur]

I'll back drivesafe on that...

The only time I can think of that even a half aware tourer would want to setup one of those DC-DC chargers is

a, when hes got 240 plug in charging fitted to the tow vehicle and he never disconnects the trailer from the tractor

b, when hes got a trailer battery configuration that is higher voltage than the tractor (and even then Id still be trying to con him into fitting a seperate alternator)

Hi Blknight,

Well I'll back myself....

a, If he is relying on a 240 volt charging system, the dc-dc system vs alternator direct is completely irrelevant.

b, yes, a separate alternator would be ideal PROVIDED the alternator was matched to the battery chemistry AND that there were no appreciable losses in the leads. If either or both of these are untrue, then the DC -DC alternative would fix the problem.

Cheers,

Paul

[Blknight.aus]

dude, did you even read that before you hit the send button? (on the edit, actually that applies to both your previous posts)

explain to me how a dedicated alternator will not charge a set of batteries to the correct nominal full charge value.

explain to me how including an additional electronic component with its inherent losses is better than just wiring up the batteries directly to the charging source with the appropriat cabling.

[Wilbur]

Just to put myself in perspective......

I have posted many questions on this forum and have received invaluable replies, for which I am eternally grateful. I don't often get myself greasy, so on mechanics I don't have a lot to contribute.

Having spent all my life as an electronic engineer, with a particular and personal interest in automotive electronics, I can contribute on this subject, and will do so whenever I can, but I don't do so unless I am confident of my knowledge.

And yes Blknight, I do check my posts before sending, that is why they seldom have typos or spelling mistakes, thesaurus or no thesaurus.

Cheers,

Paul

[Blknight.aus]

just for poops and giggles...

now call me a fully qualified diesel/plant/heavy vehicle certified mechanic But I reckon that this thread nicely points out that you can actually do with just a dumb as a post dual battery charging system like what I setup what you're claiming cant be done unless you use an expensive DC/DC charger..
(http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/125625-dual-battery-connection.html)

Drive safes system does it even better because it allows you access to some of the RC in the main battery as well and includes some pretty good protection that my (and presumably the one in the above thread) doesnt offer, it relies on you being smart enough to look after the batteries yourself.

This thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/29343-jokes.html) is much more suited for talk regarding the use of 12v DC-DC inverters to charge multiple 12v automotive style (be they deep, start, hybrid, SLAB, GEL, marine, DIN, ISO, JIC, spiral wound AGM, AGM, vented or non vented flooded cell) batteries.

[Wilbur]

just for poops and giggles...

This thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/29343-jokes.html) is much more suited for talk regarding the use of 12v DC-DC inverters to charge multiple 12v automotive style (be they deep, start, hybrid, SLAB, GEL, marine, DIN, ISO, JIC, spiral wound AGM, AGM, vented or non vented flooded cell) batteries.

I could get personal right back, but that serves no-one.

If anyone needs an answer to what is being discussed in this topic, show this thread to a competent electronic engineer and ask them for an opinion.

[Blknight.aus]

funny, since this has been done to death before and since I happen to work in an environment that's lousy with electronics we happen to have access to some pretty good electrical engineers, I assume that an aviation electrical engineer is sufficiently qualified to work out how to best charge a battery...

the 3 areosprarkwranglers with camping setups I know run the same ignition controlled solenoid to charge their batteries.

the 2 of the 4 battery techs, as in guys whose sole purpose in life is looking after batteries, that go camping and have dual batteries run the redarc which when broken down is just a solenoid thats controlled by a VSR as opposed to the ignition directly.

ok my bad, you didnt have enough of a sense of humor when I poked a bit of fun your way, fair enough but you still haven't even attempted to answer my serious questions ..

I'll even cut it down to one for you.

explain to me how a dedicated alternator will not charge a set of batteries to the correct nominal full charge value.

and then when you've nailed that one down... I have another absolute pearler for you that relates to both that ^ question and the use of a computer controlled alternator to charge multiple batteries.

oh, just by the by as a while were at it kind of deal, what happens to a DC/DC inverter charger if you accidentally hook it up to an incorrect voltage battery, a completely discharged battery or inadvertently reverse polarity the battery its supposed to be charging on hook up and how do they go when they're required to not only supply the charging current to charge the batteries but also drive the nominal load that's normally drawn off of those batteries?

and please, if your going to quote me in a serious manner have the decency to address the whole post, not just the bits that suit you.

[drivesafe]

Hi Dave, and I just love that link. You truly have a warped sense of humour.

Wilbur, my apologies, I just re-read my first reply and while it sounds like I was calling your post as being crap, I meant your source of this information is crap.

I’m not sure where you are getting your info from but it is completely wrong.

For a starter, all automotive batteries are lead acid batteries and while some will have the ability to charge faster and/or be discharged to lower levels and so on, they are still lead acid batteries.

Next, mixing battery types in an automotive set up will have no effect on anything in that set up and using an alternator as the primary charge source is not only the most efficient means of charging batteries, even when the batteries are of different type and have different levels of charge when the starting the days drive.

Furthermore, an alternator will individually charge each battery in a set up at that battery’s optimum charge rate. None of these DC-DC devices or battery chargers can do that.

Wilbur, you need to look beyond the garbage the sellers of this crap use as adverting.

[Wilbur]

No, Drivesafe, my source of information is NOT crap, but it does come from the 21st century.

Blknight, there is no point in my putting lot of effort in answering your questions because your mind is already made up.

IF you are interested, read this book (Motorhome Electrics). It is not my source of information and I have not read it myself, but it is highly respected, and written by Colin Rivers, a highly qualified automotive and electronic engineer.

Must have books - CMCA (Campervan & Motorhome Club of Australia) (http://www.cmca.net.au/pages/motorhoming_information/getting_started/must_have_books/index.php)

I strongly advise any members of this forum who are using multiple batteries to pay whatever it costs to buy this, or a similar book. You will save it ten times over in longer battery life and better performance. We all know that info gained on the net and on forums is seldom peer-reviewed, and mistakes can happen. Proper textbooks are usually correct and can be relied upon.

[Blknight.aus]

now that sounds a little defeatist of you...

or do you mean that you cant actually answer the simple question of how a dedicated alternator wont correctly charge a set of batteries?


Im quite willing to proove(and have the gear to do so) that the simple dumb as a post hook em together with decent wire and a suitable relay/solenoid is the fastest and easiest way to fully charge batteries.

not only that.

I'll tip that I have a 15amp alternator running on a small diesel engine that would charge 100AH of aux batteries faster than what your 25A DC/DC inverter could do it.

[roamer]

Well, I'm only an electrician not an engineer :( but I'm going on practical experience. For over 3 yrs on the D3 I had a 100ah battrey as a second in the car and 220ah house batteries in the van charged thru a Traxide and never had an under charging problem (BEP meter readings going to 100%)

Now for 17mths with same Traxide system, in D4 run a 55ah Optima ( in the spot where it was going too be hot ) and house batteries of 315ah (BEP meter in van still goes to 100% SOC) with out any problems, I do have solar panels on the roof connected all the time,

And after 2mths when I did hook up to 240v, thru Projector 50a, 7 stage charger, it went into float stage after 15 mins (during that time it does a battery check).

I took particular notice of what was going on with battery charge because Kimberley Karavan were pushing DC-DC units (they like techy stuff)

So from that I can only assume that the alternator and charge system is up to the job all by it's self. It has been noted by a LR tech on this site that the D4 charge system is not your normal run of the mill .

Just what is actually happening with mine. :angel:

Cheers Ken

[drivesafe]

No, Drivesafe, my source of information is NOT crap, but it does come from the 21st century.

IF you are interested, read this book (Motorhome Electrics). It is not my source of information and I have not read it myself, but it is highly respected, and written by Colin Rivers, a highly qualified automotive and electronic engineer.

Hi Wilbur, and thanks for that letting me know where you got that CRAP from.

It is crap and the author of the crap is one of the biggest liars I have ever come across.

I have locked horns with Collyn Rivers on numerous occasions and contrary to your claim of him being an automotive and electronics engineer, he is nothing more than a journalist and not a very good one. The label he gives himself is an Automotive Research DOCUMENTATION Engineer, and this is just a fancy way of calling himself a secretary and he has NO engineering qualification what so ever.

His books belong in the fiction section of a library not the technical section and the info he print is based on other people’s hard work that he simply plagiarises.

The problem is that because Collyn does not have a hands on background in this field, when the material his plagiarising is wrong, he doesn’t know it’s wrong and copies it, calling it his own work, but it’s still wrong.

Read his book, in it you will often come across statements like “As backed by battery manufacturers”. The problem is that no matter how many times he has been asked to name just one of these manufacturers, he never does, because the statement is nothing but a lie and no battery manufacturer backs his lies.

Another example of Collyns expertise on this subject. On another forum, someone wanted to know how to run their 3 way fridge off the caravan’s house battery.

Collyn, trying to big note himself, when into great detail explaining how it is done and how long his fridge would work run off the house battery and so on.

Expert Collyn did not know that you CAN NOT run a 3 way fridge off the house battery without destroying the house battery, but he quickly got an education when heaps of caravan users jumped on his crap and warned the guy who asked the question to ignore Collyns reply.

BTW, Collyn tows a caravan and the clown doesn't even know how to wire it up. An expert in this field he is NOT.

This is not the first time Collyn has been caught out and it won’t be the last.

On another forum, one of the moderators posted up an OPEN PM to Collyn Rivers, for all to read and in the PM the moderator called Collyn a liar.

As I posted earlier in this thread, Wilbur you need to find another source for your info.

[Wilbur]

now that sounds a little defeatist of you...

or do you mean that you cant actually answer the simple question of how a dedicated alternator wont correctly charge a set of batteries?

.....



Okay. A modern deep cycle battery requires three stages of charging - bulk, which is a constant current until the volatge across the battery reaches a specified level, then absorption which is a constant voltage until the current drawn by the battery drops to a specified level, then float whereby the voltage acros the battery is reduced to prevent overcharging.

A typical automotive alternator gives out a constant voltage regardless of anything unless it is so heavily loaded that the voltage drops. This is quite adequate for the vehicle battery which is required to give only very short bursts of very high (cranking) current. While the vehicle is running, all the accessories are supplied by the alternator, not the battery.

The opposite is required of the house battery. It is required to give relatively low output current but for long periods. While a cranking battery may supply hundreds of amps it does so only for a few seconds. The house battery might cruise at 5~10 amps, but it does so for many many hours each day.

As to your 'tip' that your 15 amp alternator will charge a battery more quickly than a good 25 amp DC - DC convertor... if you live anywhere near Bega I am prepared to buy a DC-DC convertor (I need one anyway) and bring it to your place with two identical batteries and put it to the test. I would be delighted to have a little wager on the result if you are game......

As always, no offence meant.

Regards

Paul

[TerryO]

It is crap and the author of the crap is one of the biggest liars I have ever come across.



Now don't hold back why not tell us what you really think of the man and his work. :lol2:

cheers,
Terry

[Wilbur]

Hi Wilbur, and thanks for that letting me know where you got that CRAP from.


No Drivesafe, as I specified this is NOT where I get my information. I simply did a google on the subject and this seemed the one that would give the best laymans terms type of dissertation on battery management.

I can't remember where my info came from, it is just such basic knowledge. I am sure that blknight can't remember where he learned that it was bad for engines to put valve grinding paste in the sump, but I'll bet he knows it just the same!

Try asking a battery maker - Welcome to Fullriver! (http://www.fullriver.com) for example - what they think of the idea of connecting one of their deep cycle batteries direct to an automotive alternator.

If you want to go deeper, ask them for the correct charging regime for their batteries. You will find it very interesting.

The whole point is that battery technology has changed over the last few years and (unusually) it has changed for the better. However, these benefits do require a change in the way we manage our batteries.

Regards,

Paul

[drivesafe]

Wilbur, I think you need to learn a bit more about the different types of batteries and their intended uses because your misunderstanding what you're reading.

Fullriver make a large range of batteries, MOST were never intended for automotive use and as such, should never be connected “DIRECTLY” to the alternator. This means like a cranking battery, but Fullriver now make a few cranking battery type AGMs, and these can be connected directly to the alternator.

As for the rest of the Fullriver range of batteries, as long as there is a decent cable run between the alternator, usually from the cranking battery, and the AGM battery then there is no problem.

Standard AGMs like fullriver, do not tolerate high temperatures so by mounting them away from the engine compartment and the cable run, which will act as a quasi voltage/current regulator means you can safely connect them to any vehicle’s electrical system.

Now, your correct that battery technology is advancing but you need to understand what these advances are and how they fit into RV/automotive situations.

[Blknight.aus]

Okay. A modern deep cycle battery requires three stages of charging - bulk, which is a constant current until the volatge across the battery reaches a specified level, then absorption which is a constant voltage until the current drawn by the battery drops to a specified level, then float whereby the voltage acros the battery is reduced to prevent overcharging.

A typical automotive alternator gives out a constant voltage regardless of anything unless it is so heavily loaded that the voltage drops. This is quite adequate for the vehicle battery which is required to give only very short bursts of very high (cranking) current. While the vehicle is running, all the accessories are supplied by the alternator, not the battery.

The opposite is required of the house battery. It is required to give relatively low output current but for long periods. While a cranking battery may supply hundreds of amps it does so only for a few seconds. The house battery might cruise at 5~10 amps, but it does so for many many hours each day.

As to your 'tip' that your 15 amp alternator will charge a battery more quickly than a good 25 amp DC - DC convertor... if you live anywhere near Bega I am prepared to buy a DC-DC convertor (I need one anyway) and bring it to your place with two identical batteries and put it to the test. I would be delighted to have a little wager on the result if you are game......

As always, no offence meant.

Regards

Paul

sadly with bega being about 1400KM away, thats a bit far..

but if you're happy to go and get yourself an excide N70ZZ (which is a fairly typical cranking battery) and a century 89t (which is a fairly typical deep cycle flooded cell battery) find a 15 amp bosch alternator as fitted to a dumb as a post kubota lighting plant diesel 3 pot to charge them from you can do the experiment yourself.

drop the deep cycle battery down to 0v across the terminals (nominal bat temp 25degC nominal measured load 0A )
drop the starting battery down to 9.8v(same nominal battery temp and load)
start the engine
charge both batteries to their nominal max charge using the 15A alternator (10mm2 wiring from the alternator to the starter 16mm2 to the starting battery 16mm earth cable with a direct 20mm flat braid from the earth lug to the alternator mounting bolt) with say 10m of double insulated figure 8 16mm2 or better hooked terminal to terminal from one battery to the next including a 100A solenoid/relay in the wiring.

got a time?

cool.

Reset the batteries and remove the solenoid from that setup then install your dc/dc inverter in its place, IF you feel that you need to wind the size of the wiring back to 8mm2 so you can use the normal screw block terminals, the normal crimp splice or the normal recommended wire size for most of those DC/DC inverters feel free.

now repeat the test.

Last time I did it, the DC/DC inverter wouldn't even recognize the AUX battery until Id manually charged it to 9.8v

[Tombie]

I love these threads... :cool:

And lets go 5000km services, dance naked to Pagan Gods and see if we can sail to the edge of the world :wasntme:

[Wilbur]

Wilbur, I think you need to learn a bit more about the different types of batteries and their intended uses because your misunderstanding what you're reading.

...............................

Now, your correct that battery technology is advancing but you need to understand what these advances are and how they fit into RV/automotive situations.

Drivesafe, I have learned a LOT about the different types of batteries, and I fully understand what these advances are and how they fit into RV/automotive situations. I understand the chemistry (to an extent) and I understand why they need the charging regime that the manufacturers specify. I know how to design and build the harware to charge these batteries to the manufactureres specifications.

In the year 2011, I assumed that no one would use old technology batteries for the house batteries in a camper or motorhome. I still assume that, though there will of course be some who don't want to learn how to deal with new technology and will stick with the old tried and true system.

The old systems worked but if applied to modern batteries, the life of the modern battery will be greatly reduced. If properly handled the new batteries are very much better than the old ones. Haven't you wondered why there are so many multi-stage 240 volt driven chargers on the market? All the DC - DC convertors do is to offer this technolgy (multi-stage charging) for those who charge their batteries from their alternator instead of or as well as from 240 volts.

In 640newtons case, with a vehicle like that and the set-up he seems to have, I would be VERY surprised if he hasn't bothered to get modern batteries for the two in his camper. All he needs now is a proper charger. By modern batteries I don't mean cutting edge 2011 technology, just a plain ordinary AGM or similar, such as has been around for quite a while now.

Blknight, the less said about your "test method" the better.

In all honesty I think this thread has gone far enough - it really had been a hijack of 640newtons thread. I strongly urge anyone contemplating adding batteries to contact the battery manufacturer for instructions on which type of battery to use, and how to look after it.

Thanks for the sparring match, it has been fun - even if it is two against one!

Cheers,

Paul

[drivesafe]

Wilbur, enough is enough.

It is not two against one, you have absolutely no idea what your talking about and are doing nothing more than using some fancy phrases without out actually saying anything and you haven’t posted a single bit of info to back your claims.

For your info, the most advanced batteries on the RV and automotive market today are not AGMs, these will very shortly be nothing more than a specialised battery group.

The most advanced batteries of the market today a Calcium/Calcium batteries, these are, as you put it, OLD TECHNOLOGY batteries, better known as flooded wet cell batteries.

As I have posted, you read a bit of info but because of your lack of knowledge of the way everything works together, you have no idea of how things will be effected by other related situations in the systems these batteries will be used in.

Furthermore the very fact that you think a battery charger, whether it be a 240vac charge or a DC-DC converter can do a better job than an alternator can just shows you are doing nothing more than parroting what you have read on the side of some corn flakes packet.

There is NOTHING on the market that can beat an alternator when it comes to charging batteries while on the move, further more, the larger the capacity that needs to be charged, the greater the problems these DC-DC converters will cause, to the point where their use will actually result in the rapid shortening of the batteries life span.

If you what to believe the garbage that these snake oil pedlars are spinning, so be it, but don’t come here and make out you are an expert in a field you quite obviously don’t work in and also as obvious, you don’t understand.

Newton has asked some legitimate questions and he is after legitimate answers, not misleading advertising hype.

[Wilbur]

Wilbur, enough is enough.

It is not two against one, you have absolutely no idea what your talking about and are doing nothing more than using some fancy phrases without out actually saying anything and you haven’t posted a single bit of info to back your claims.

For you info, the most advanced batteries on the RV and automotive market today are not AGMs, these will very shortly be nothing more than a specialised battery group.

The most advanced batteries of the market today a Calcium/Calcium batteries, these are, as you put it, OLD TECHNOLOGY batteries, better known as flooded wet cell batteries.

As I have posted, you read a bit of info but because of your lack of knowledge of the way everything works together, you have no idea of how things will be effected by other related situations in the systems these batteries will be used in.

Furthermore the very fact that you think a battery charger, whether it be a 240vac charge or a DC-DC converter can do a better job than an alternator can just shows you are doing nothing more than parroting what you have read on the side of some corn flakes packet.

There is NOTHING on the market that can beat an alternator when it comes to charging batteries while on the move, further more, the larger the capacity that needs to be charged, the greater the problems these DC-DC converters will cause, to the point where their use will actually result in the rapid shortening of the batteries life span.

If you what to believe the garbage that these snake oil pedlars are spinning, so be it, but don’t come here and make out you are an expert in a field you quite obviously don’t work in and also as obvious, you don’t understand.

Newton has asked some legitimate questions and he is after legitimate answers, not misleading advertising hype.

I did say that I wasn't referring to cutting edge 2011 technology, just AGM's that had been around for years.

Anyway, you are getting nasty now, so I will sign off now and content myself with pointing out that it is YOU, not me, who has a vested commercial interest in promoting one technology over another. I have no reason to offer "misleading advertsisng hype".

[Blknight.aus]

ok wilbur, if you dont like that test lets do the same one with an 85A alternator.

both batteries setup as before but all equipment (I'll be nice to your batteries, you can have them outside) must be in a 75-80 degree environment.


But more simply no-one has yet bought to bare the most important reason to not have one of those DC/DC charging units. They add unnecessary complexity to a simple situation.

[Wilbur]

But more simply no-one has yet bought to bare the most important reason to not have one of those DC/DC charging units. They add unnecessary complexity to a simple situation.

At last, something I can agree with. I also dislike the added complication, but like many, I have very limited space, and with the DC-DC charger I can get away with less house batteries. Or I can have the same number of batteries and run a bigger beer fridge and do without something else......

However, having said that I will add that modern electronics are pretty reliable. Otherwise who would drive anything more modern than a 300tdi?

Oh and just a thought, if one was to accidentally leave the headlights on and flatten the car battery, the leads on the DC-DC convertor could be reversed to charge the car battery from even fairly well discharged house batteries. Could be useful.

Cheers,

Paul

[drivesafe]

I just re-read one of your earlier posts in this thread and again, Wilbur, you haven’t got a clew what your talking about.

Nothing is MATCHED to the BATTERY CHEMISTRY. Not alternators, AC battery charger or DC-DC converters.

You have just proven once again that you have read something but don’t have a clew what it means.

Please explain your claim?

[drivesafe]

Oh and just a thought, if one was to accidentally leave the headlights on and flatten the car battery, the leads on the DC-DC convertor could be reversed to charge the car battery from even fairly well discharged house batteries. Could be useful.

Actually, most will not work from another battery because most DC-DC devices are designed to shutdown automatically once the motor stops, and the voltage drop to a level just above or at the level of a fully charged battery.

If these devices didn’t do this they would flatten the cranking battery once the motor was turned off.

There are some exceptions like the Ctek that can be ordered with a special lower cutout voltage level but as this device does no longer knows when the motor is turned off, you have to add a conventional isolator or again, you risk having the cranking battery flattened.

[wrinklearthur]

At last, something I can agree with. I also dislike the added complication, but like many, I have very limited space, and with the DC-DC charger I can get away with less house batteries. Or I can have the same number of batteries and run a bigger beer fridge and do without something else......

However, having said that I will add that modern electronics are pretty reliable. Otherwise who would drive anything more modern than a 300tdi?

Oh and just a thought, if one was to accidentally leave the headlights on and flatten the car battery, the leads on the DC-DC convertor could be reversed to charge the car battery from even fairly well discharged house batteries. Could be useful.

Cheers,

Paul
Hi All

Guys ! its not April the 1st anymore, please calm down.

Ohms Law E = I x R, P = E x I

E = Voltage measured in Volts
I = Amperage measured in Amps
R = Resistance measured in Ohms
P = Power measured in Watts

Batteries, as they age, alter their internal resistance.
I say this as I now have cut the wiring to my dual battery smart? isolator, it was getting hot, both, the coil and the contacts that are rated at 200 ohms (new relay but I believe that it had tarnished contacts).

Both batteries were identical, except the one for the auxilliary was years older (maybe as much as five years), when coupled together I felt that the constant current drain was not good for the new Battery and would soon wreck it, hence the big snip !

I am quite capable of stuffing my own wiring up, so I don't get anyone else to do my own wiring, let alone pay them to do it.

Cheers Arthur

[drivesafe]

Hi Arthur, unless the old battery is actually stuffed and not holding a charge, then there should be no reason for a high current discharge from your new to your old other than that you have a low charged old battery, note not stuffed just low charged.

As to the Isolator being hot, it’s quite common for isolators and the adjoining cable ( the cable acts as a heat sink ) to be so hot you can’t hold them, so unless the isolator looked like it was about to melt, all should be fine.

If you want to play safe, leave the set up disconnected until you know you are going to be doing a longish drive, then connect everything up and let your alternator supply the current being pulled through the isolator so your cranking battery is not supplying any current.

At the end of the drive, turn your motor off and see if you still have a high current flow between the batteries.

[640Newton]

I didn't realise that there were divided opinions on auto electronics, but if nothing else this "healthy debate" highlights to troubles that consumers exerience when trying to seek guidance on the best/correct way to do things.

Auto electronics is an area where I'll happily admit that I have very little understanding but this means that I'm at the mercy of whoever I seek advice from and it is now clear that my end solution will be determined by whatever school of thought that person comes from.

The benefit of forums such as these is that the person seeking advice can take the opinions shared and choose which camp they want to be in or go off and do more research themselves. Thanks for all your input.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Wilbur,
In post No. 12 in this thread, you say "Having spent all my life as an electronic engineer, ... ". I'd be interested in knowing what your formal qualifications are in this area are (and from where). Further, I'd be interested to know of what professional institutes you are a member.

Looking forward to your reply,
Peter

[Wilbur]

Hi Wilbur,
In post No. 12 in this thread, you say "Having spent all my life as an electronic engineer, ... ". I'd be interested in knowing what your formal qualifications are in this area are (and from where). Further, I'd be interested to know of what professional institutes you are a member.

Looking forward to your reply,
Peter

Candidly it is none of your business. I offer knowledge, take it or leave it. Unlike other contributors, I have invited anyone reading my post to check with other experts.

I make this final post on the subject, in point form so it is easy to understand. It will also be very easy for anyone to verify, in the apparently unlikely event that you are more interested in science than in the fun of being offensive to someone trying to offer good advice.

1. Ctek, Projecta and a thousand other companies are not joined together in an almighty conspiracy to dump useless multi-stage chargers on the market.

2. Multi-stage chargers do give better results.

3. The DC - DC convertors refferred to simply work on 12 volts instead of 240 volts, just like you can buy a 12 volt television for your camper or a 240 volt television. They are multi-stage chargers just like the 240 volt versions.

4. Most car alternators deliver 13.8 volts. AGM and many other deep cycle batteries require around 14.4 volts to fully charge.

5, 13.8 volts will NEVER be able to fully charge an AGM battery.

6. If the alternator did put out 14.4 volts continously, it would cook the AGM because once an AGM is fully charged, it requires the voltage to be dropped to a float voltage of around 13.2 volts. Leave it at a higher level and the battery will over charge and reduce its life.


I simply do not understand what is going on here. I offer knowledge that unfortunately conflicts with the forum guru, and you are all too thick-headed to even try to find out who is telling the truth. It is very disappointing. I looked at this forum as one of the more reasonable and rational ones, but now I am very disappointed and disillusioned. Go burn your house batteries up after two or three years, it costs me nothing. Mine is still good after six years.

[drivesafe]

Wilbur, you have not offered on bit of info, you have shown you have the ability to read something and not understand what you’re reading.

Again, no battery charge yet can compete with the versatility that an alternator offers.

You claim most car alternators deliver 13.8v. The average alternator output is 14.0 to 14.4v on older vehicles and on newer vehicles, like Toyotas and Land Rovers, the voltage is as low as 13.2v, and they have no problem charging all types of 12v lead acid batteries at this lower voltage, and this is fact, not what you THINK happens.
Wilbur, you have not offered one bit of useful info, all you have done is show you have the ability to read something and not understand what you’re reading.

Again, no battery charge yet can compete with the versatility that an alternator offers, and if you worked in this field, you would know that.

You claim most car alternators deliver 13.8v. The average alternator output is 14.0 to 14.4v on older vehicles and on newer vehicles, like Toyotas and Land Rovers, the voltage is as low as 13.2v, and they have no problem charging all types of 12v lead acid batteries at these lower voltages, and this is fact, not what you THINK happens.

Furthermore, D3s and D4s will charge at up to 15v and this does not effect the batteries, or are you saying you know better than the vehicle manufacturers?

Next, find one battery manufacturer that states you CAN NOT fully charge a lead acid battery with voltages as low as 13.2v.

What battery manufacturers and the makers of battery charges, including DC-DC devices, state is that the “MAXIMUM” charge voltage for standard AGMs and Gel cell batteries is 14.4v.

Now Wilbur, just to clarify this so that you finally understand what you have been reading, 14.4v is the MAXIMUM charge voltage not the required charge voltage, and the setting for the different types of batteries are there to make sure you don't over charge different battery types with the wrong "MAXIMUM" charge voltage.

Flooded wet cell batteries, and this includes most Calcium/Calcium batteries, and automotive grade AGMs can be charged with 14.7v.

Furthermore keeping these battery at the levels shown above will not cause any problems as you’re inferring and again an example to prove the point. When most people leaving home on the first day of a motoring holiday, They will do so with fully charged batteries ( at least they should be fully charged ) right from the beginning of their day’s drive. If according to you, this will cook their batteries, why doesn't it happened.

Wilbur, I have no idea of what section of electronics you come from ( if you actually do ) but it sure as hell had nothing to do with batteries.

BTW, I think Bushwanderer's question is a valid one, so why don't you want to answer it.

[isuzurover]

I also think Bushwanderer's question is a valid one.

Btw - the (relevant) scientific literature I can find on DC-DC chargers:

A system for charging of dual voltage level batteries in automotive applications

Author(s): Bouallaga, K.; Darcherif, A.M.
Source: 2007 IEEE International Electric Machines and Drives Conference Pages: 107-11 Published: 2007
Conference Information: 2007 IEEE International Electric Machines and Drives Conference
Antalya, Turkey, 3-5 May 2007
Abstract: The aim of the paper is to present a new system for charging of dual voltage level batteries in automotive applications. The proposed system is built as an arrangement of in induction machine and a bi-directional converter. In a near future, two batteries with different voltages will coexiste on the automotive electrical system board. A first one for power hungry devices, start-up, alternator, auxiliary motors and a second with 14 V for digital, calculation or radio circuits. The two batteries are recharged using a single alternator. An initial solution for this consists of using two converters. Firstly, the alternator recharges the highest voltage battery using a rectifier or a switching mode converter. Then the high level battery recharges the lower voltage battery, through a separate DC/DC step-down shopper. Compare to this traditional solution, a more economic one would be a DC/DC chopper by recharging the two batteries through a single switching mode converter. This article studies the resulting device and simulates its functioning in the case of an induction generator. Only simulations results are shown, practical results will be published in a next paper.


Future system architectures based on the dual voltage electrical power system specification 42 V 14 V

Author(s): Schmidt F, Blumel R, Blauensteiner WD
Book Group Author(s): VEREIN DEUTSCH INGN; VEREIN DEUTSCH INGN
Source: ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS FOR VEHICLES Book Series: VDI BERICHTE Volume: 1415 Pages: 1117-1131 Published: 1998
Times Cited: 1 References: 0 Citation MapCitation Map
Conference Information: 8th International Meeting on Electronic Systems for Vehicles
BADEN BADEN, GERMANY, OCT 08-09, 1998
Verein Deutsch Ingn, Gesell Fahrzeug & Verkehrstech
Abstract: In order to be able to provide the amount of electrical energy needed in vehicles of the future, while, at the same time, reducing the fuel consumption, it will be necessary to redesign the on-board power supply. In working groups in Europe and the US, the specifications for a dual voltage power system have been defined, which will provide the basis for the development of the 42V PowerNet.

This article briefly describes the motivation for changes in the on-board power supply and describes the guidelines for a dual voltage power system. Based on the approaches for a 12V system, a multilevel converter will be presented as an example for new power electronics in the alternator. In order to implement the guidelines, new criteria far the power distribution to individual consumers will be defined and in the context of sizing converters the issue of "central or decentralized DC/DC converter" will be discussed, after having looked at the basic conditions pre-defined due to available battery technologies, an architecture with an extended concept for converters will be presented, which will meet the requirements of reducing the voltage range, while, at the same time, achieving optimum battery charging voltage.
Document Type: Proceedings Paper
Language: German

more to come... I note none are for 12V/12V systems


Capacitive DC-DC Converter for Electric Vehicle Applications

Author(s): Pelczar, C.; Zirn, O.
Source: Proceedings of the International Exhibition and Conference for Power Electronics, Intelligent Motion, Power Quality. PCIM 2010 Pages: 686-91 Published: 2010
Conference Information: International Exhibition and Conference for Power Electronics, Intelligent Motion, Power Quality. PCIM 2010
Nuremberg, Germany, 4-6 May 2010
Abstract: This paper deals with the design and implementation of a capacitive DC-DC converter. We examined phenomena that influence the performance of DC-DC converters, e.g. capacitor charging losses, parasitic inductance, and switching frequency. The performance of the converter was tested over a range of loads and switching frequencies. The comparison of measurement results as well as design parameter studies elucidate the simulative design options as well as the achievable power and efficiency.
Accession Number: 11448029
Document Type: Conference Paper
Language: English


Interleaved 3 Phase DC/DC Converter for Automotive Applications

Author(s): Cornea, O.; Muntean, N.; Gavris, M.
Source: 2010 12th International Conference on Optimization of Electrical and Electronic Equipment (OPTIM) Pages: 589-94 Published: 2010
Conference Information: 2010 12th International Conference on Optimization of Electrical and Electronic Equipment (OPTIM)
Basov, Romania, 20-22 May 2010
Abstract: The paper presents an interleaved 3-phase step-down converter that can be used to charge the 12 V battery and to feed the corresponding loads from the 42 V bus, in automotive dual voltage system. The converter has a maximum 3 kW output power and efficiency above 93% at full load. The simulation results show good responses under various input and output conditions.
Accession Number: 11431607
Document Type: Conference Paper


New energy-storage unit for heavy-duty vehicles encompassing cold-weather starting

Author(s): Schupbach, R.M.; Balda, J.C.
Source: 2004 IEEE 35th Annual Power Electronics Specialists Conference (IEEE Cat. No.04CH37551) Pages: (Vol.4) 2786-91 Vol.4 Published: 2004
Conference Information: 2004 IEEE 35th Annual Power Electronics Specialists Conference
Aachen, Germany, 20-25 June 2004
IEEE Power Electon. Soc
Abstract: A standard light ignition (SLI) battery, the vehicle energy storage element, must deliver maximum energy and maximum power. These design requirements are self-excluding; consequently, compromises must be made in the battery design. Increasing energy demands of the vehicle electric accessories are moving this technology towards its limits. New SLI battery designs are not providing the required energy density and cold cranking capabilities (i.e., maximum power) at temperatures as cold as -40 degrees F. This paper explores a solution that uses an ultracapacitor pack in parallel with the starter motor and a unidirectional dc-dc converter allows optimal charging of the pack. The service battery could contribute a portion of the starter motor power using the converter. Lastly, load levelling of the vehicle electric accessories, and hence improved voltage regulation, can be provided to the vehicle power system at a cost by adding to the converter the bi-directional power flow feature
Accession Number: 8206019
Document Type: Conference Paper
Language: English

This one seems promising:

A novel battery charger for automotive applications

Author(s): Vrankovic, Z.; Nasiri, A.
Source: 2006 IEEE Vehicle Power and Propulsion Conference (IEEE Cat No. 06EX1295) Pages: 6 pp. Published: 2006
Conference Information: 2006 IEEE Vehicle Power and Propulsion Conference
Windsor, UK, 6-8 September 2006
Abstract: In this paper, a new power electronics topology is introduced for battery pulse charging. The topology is based on a bidirectional isolated Cuk converter. The charging method provides positive and negative current and resting periods. This charging method results in less generated heat and longer battery life cycle. Different operating modes of the system and its small signal analysis are presented. The small signal system has been modeled using MATLAB. Simulation results are also provided to validate the mathematical analysis
Accession Number: 9486520
Document Type: Conference Paper
Language: English
Author Address: Vrankovic, Z.; Nasiri, A.; Power Electron. & Motor Drives Lab., Wisconsin Univ., Milwaukee, WI, USA

[Braddo]

G'day guys, this is my first post so please be gentle with me. I read with interest the debate on automotive electrics. Gee some of you blokes get on your horse at the drop of a hat don't you. That Drivesafe dude smacked Wilber around like a red-headed step son. I'm glad I don't bring Blknight's sixteen year old daughter home late. He goes like a hungry Staffy on a bone. I love it!
Anyway, as an aside, I own a '76 FC 101 ex Rapier recovery vehicle with a 4.4 Terrier donk, 4.7:1 diffs, rally seats and some rust. The clutch, brakes and hand brake don't work which makes it interesting to drive. The rag top is shot and she's been out of rego for about 15 years. I also have a list of spares which I couldn't even remember. I was just wondering if it is worth anything or if any one would be interested in it. I have been out of the scene for a long time now and have pursued other hobbies. Kindest regards Braddo.

[THE BOOGER]

Plenty of people will be interested but I think you would be better in the markets section not the firing range:D

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

"At the end of the drive, turn your motor off and see if you still have a high current flow between the batteries".[/QUOTE]

Yes, still had a high current flow, (actual amount not measured yet and sparks are scarey near charging batteries !!! :o).


"Hi Arthur, unless the old battery is actually stuffed and not holding a charge, then there should be no reason for a high current discharge from your new to your old other than that you have a low charged old battery, note not stuffed just low charged".

The old battery is near its end of working life, the physical sign of this is that the cells are gassing before getting the measurement of 13.6 volts at the terminals. ( using a Fluke 73 multimeter )

"As to the Isolator being hot, it’s quite common for isolators and the adjoining cable ( the cable acts as a heat sink ) to be so hot you can’t hold them, so unless the isolator looked like it was about to melt, all should be fine".[/QUOTE]

Was warm to touch, first thing in the morning, before starting the motor!

"If you want to play safe, leave the set up disconnected until you know you are going to be doing a longish drive, then connect everything up and let your alternator supply the current being pulled through the isolator so your cranking battery is not supplying any current".[/QUOTE]

Could do, but I am going to add another 10 amp relay to control the voltage source to the 'smarts' on the isolator, first operated by a switch near the volt meter on the dash and then wired to an accessory terminal controlled from the ignition switch.
The original 200 amp relay I will be replacing with another relay as I suspect is faulty from new and the contacts are possibly sticking.

Now, to look again at the original question that 640 Newton asked.

"Could someone please educate me on how much power the alternator on a TDV8 RRS can generate? How do I know if I am putting too much load on the alternator?".[/QUOTE]

If He asked, How do I know if I am putting too much load on the battery, The whole response in this thread would made a lot more sense.

Cheers Arthur

[Blknight.aus]

G'day guys, this is my first post so please be gentle with me. I read with interest the debate on automotive electrics. Gee some of you blokes get on your horse at the drop of a hat don't you. That Drivesafe dude smacked Wilber around like a red-headed step son. I'm glad I don't bring Blknight's sixteen year old daughter home late. He goes like a hungry Staffy on a bone. I love it!


Mate thats cause I'm really good at differentiating between actual facts and marketing wankspeak. Couple that with my natural tendancy to fight stupid with sarcasm, you get the idea.

IF I had a 16yo Daughter, you wouldn't get the chance to return her late, I'd already be hunting you down.

[640Newton]

If He asked, How do I know if I am putting too much load on the battery, The whole response in this thread would made a lot more sense.

Cheers Arthur

I appreciate that would have been an easier question to answer, but that is not the area of concern that I have/had. My concern was not around whether I was getting excess/sufficient/insufficient charge to the batteries, it was more a concern that the alternator would not be able to cope with charging 4 batteries plus a number of other electrical accessories.

Correctly or incorrectly I have operated under the assumption that the auto electricians who installed the dual battery system in my RRS have installed an appropriate system to charge and maintain the batteries correctly (this work was done by a Sydney based Land Rover specialist).

I have also assumed that the auto electrician who installed the dual battery system and associated Anderson plug for my camper trailer have done so on the basis that it is the most appropriate for my vehicle based on the existing setup (this work was done by a specialist who installs the electrics for this particular brand of camper trailer day-in, day-out).

Having read the various responses in this thread, I "think" I have drawn the conclusion that the alternator is up to the job. However, it again raises some doubts in my mind about whether auto electricians simply install solution X because that is what they sell (and get paid for) or whether they take the time to assess and install the most appropriate solution based on the clients particular needs.

[bbyer]

However, it again raises some doubts in my mind about whether auto electricians simply install solution X because that is what they sell (and get paid for) or whether they take the time to assess and install the most appropriate solution based on the clients particular needs.

I think that this discussion shows the value of the Forum. Certainly in Canada, a Land Rover is so obscure that even with the dealer, one sometimes wonders.

With modifications, or anything not in the Land Rover option book, I think one best have a good idea of the results one would like to see and then canvas about the various shops as to how they would do whatever. The guy that sounds closest to what you think should be done becomes the guy to chance.

Later this week, I am having a transmission filter / oil change done. My dealer is good, but $2,000.00 for a oil filter etc, (shop rates and all), is not much fun. As such, I spent a couple of weeks talking to various transmission shops. Bottom line, I found a place that knows the 3's tranny is similar to a 2005/6 Lincoln Navigator SUV, and better yet, one of their off shore shop persons is a Land Rover guy - hence they will not try to prove I would have been better off with a Toyota.

And yes, with any shop, and any problem, you will most likely get the solution that they are most familiar with, which just might work out for you too - hence the need for the Forum.

I have the Traxide dual battery system in my 3 and choose it as at least they understand Land Rover, (certainly more than I do); as to the 4, well even more so, at that charging system is so different as to be virtually unknown here in North America, (and perhaps elsewhere).

[THE BOOGER]

Just a related question is the traxide unit the only dual battery setup that LR will accept while the car is under warranty?:)

[Bushwanderer]

Candidly it is none of your business. I offer knowledge, take it or leave it. Unlike other contributors, I have invited anyone reading my post to check with other experts.
SNIP
I simply do not understand what is going on here. I offer knowledge that unfortunately conflicts with the forum guru, and you are all too thick-headed to even try to find out who is telling the truth. SNIP

Hi Wilbur,
As I stated in my previous post, "I look forward to your reply".

Unfortunately, your reply is not unexpected.

You were the one to offer your qualifications in order to validate your argument. On that basis, it is reasonable to ask what those qualifications are. (It is interesting that I can remember only two occasions when people have used their quals. in order to support an argument. In both cases, the person said they were an "electronics engineer" (or have you also done this on another thread?).)

Regrettably, I think that your credibility is approaching zero with many people reading this thread (and the wider forum?).

Oh dear,
Peter

[bbyer]

Just a related question is the Traxide unit the only dual battery setup that LR will accept while the car is under warranty?:)

I think that may be so with the D4 but verification is best left to one of the Australians here on the Forum.

With my LR3, it was the only controller I would chance given that so little is known about Land Rovers in the New World. In fairness however, the 3's electrical system is fairly common so most other multiple battery controller units will not actually destroy the 3's electrical; they just will not split the charging perhaps as well as could be desired.

That brand with the display with all the lights had appeal, but I decided that I would instead, purchase a tyre pressure monitoring setup with lots of coloured digits and LED's - get my fix that way, and hence I installed the boring but efficient, Traxide dual battery controller.

[gghaggis]

Just a related question is the traxide unit the only dual battery setup that LR will accept while the car is under warranty?:)

Technically, there is no system "approved" by LRA for the D4 - all dual battery systems are a breach of warranty.

In practice, it seems most dealers will give it the nod over others, and it seems to be the one that works best/interferes the least with the D4's generator system.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Blknight.aus]

there is a "dual battery" system that you can install in your "any flashy car you like" without voiding your warranty.

However all it has in common with a proper dual battery system is that yes, it has a second battery in it. These are also marketed as a "battery tank" or "portable 12v power source" most of these are little more than a 12v SLA battery out of something like an emergancy exit light or in the more expensive models cases an electric wheelchair and have a cheep and cheery cigarette to cigarette socket cable to charge them and usually come with the proviso that, no you cant charge them and draw power from them at the same time.

I'll admit to have had a couple of these and found them usefull for running small lights or 12v accessories for a short period (matress inflators, phone chargers, dvd players, the shower water pump) but the ones that are nice and easy to carry around generally dont have the legs and the bigger ones that have a really useful charge span are just to big to be lugging around for small jobs.

[drivesafe]

Wilbur, if your not going to back any of your claims, so be it but keep on subject or go elsewhere.

[Blknight.aus]

ok, now Im curious.

[Wilbur]

Keep your replies on subject.

You is de man, you got da power!

[Wilbur]

ok, now Im curious.

Quite simply, drivesafe used his power to remove my post that he didn't like. I hope you get to read this before he again exercises his power of censorship.

If you would like to know what I posted, please PM me (assuming drivesafe doesn't also block that) and I will send you a copy. Anyone else may also PM me if they want to see the post.

Rgds,

Paul

[Blknight.aus]

actually, I just read your original post...

I never called you stupid, I just said that sarcasm is my defence against stupid.

I've also just re-read the thread. I mentioned humour in one of my posts towards you (and at the time actually ment it as just that)

The fact that you drew the conclusion that you were called stupid was your own perception.

potentially the most insightful thing you put in this thread. I just regret that the original post was deleted so no-one else can witness you conducting a SPWOSO

[drivesafe]

Take care Wilbur, your on thin ice and while others have seen your post and recommend you be band, I’ve given you one warning.

Your post had absolutely nothing to do with this thread and was nothing more than intended abuse.

Your post was way off what is acceptable/tolerable on this forum.

Again, Wilbur be warned.

OK folks, back on subject!

[RRV80]

If dc to dc chargers were better at charging, surely a d4 or rrs would already have one lol :wasntme: i have a n70 in the disco that is very old, a very tiny deep cycle which is also old, i use a redarc and never had any problems, and the battery in the van is always charged to, it is run from the second battery, dunno if i have it hooked up right but it works like a treat running 2 fridges all the lights and gizmos in both the car and van

[isuzurover]

Quite simply, drivesafe used his power to remove my post that he didn't like. I hope you get to read this before he again exercises his power of censorship.

If you would like to know what I posted, please PM me (assuming drivesafe doesn't also block that) and I will send you a copy. Anyone else may also PM me if they want to see the post.

Rgds,

Paul

Paul/Wilbur... You main argument seem to be that there are a number of (reputable) companies that sell DC-DC chargers, so they must be needed.

If we take that argument, then reputable companies would not manufacture/sell devices such as "performance" air filters; turbo timers or other such devices which have no practical benefit on a road vehicle or 4x4.

You have posted no evidence to support your claims.

All the engineering papers I can find on DC-DC converters are for 12-14/40 volt systems (bar 1 which does not list voltages). There are plenty of happy customers out there with conventional chargers. Maybe their batteries only have 94% instead of 98% charge, but would they know or care???

Most of the members of this site have no allegiance to drivesafe, but we do generally have good BS meters.

How about posting some evidence??? (if you wish to be taken seriously).

[isuzurover]

double post...

[Wilbur]

Take care Wilbur, your on thin ice and while others have seen your post and recommend you be band, I’ve given you one warning.

Your post had absolutely nothing to do with this thread and was nothing more than intended abuse.

Your post was way off what is acceptable/tolerable on this forum.

Again, Wilbur be warned.

OK folks, back on subject!

Duly chastised and remoreseful, I offer this comment, which I belive to be fully relevant to the topic.

1. Ctek, Projecta, Redarc and a huge number of other manufacturers are producing multi-stage chargers. It is a world-wide thing, multi-stage chargers are becoming the norm.

2. My 1996 Jaguar has a multi-stage charger, so this movement has had plenty of time to be discredited, should discrediting be appropriate.

3. I don't know, but I would be very surprised if the D4 doesn't have a multi-stage charger. I take delivery of a new one in 4~5 weeks, and if I am not banned, I will let the forum know the answer to that.

4. Any vehicle that has a multi-stage charger requires special precautions when adding ANY auxiliary loads. Failure to do it correctly can result in anything from reduced car battery life, to mysterious bouts of flat starting battery to even having the on-board computer log a fault situation. This is true whether the auxiliary load is a driving light, a winch, a simple solenoid controlled dual battery system or a multi-stage DC-DC charger.

5. If I find that the D4 does in fact have a multi-stage charging system, and I can support this with the documentation that comes with my vehicle, I will post this here along with any warnings given by Land Rover Australia - again assuming that I am not banned, or that my posts won't be deleted.

6. I have no vested interest in any automotive products whatsoever, other than a personal love of Land Rovers.

7. Many of you have demanded that I quote reference for everything I say. It will take work to find those references as they have accumulated over many years - and are still accumulating. If I am to do this, I would be grateful if others posting here would be required to do the same.

8. I would especially be grateful if Drivesafe would quote his references for his asserion that "as low as 13.2v, and they have no problem charging all types of 12v lead acid batteries at these lower voltages,"

9. I have been asked to list my professional qualifications in electronics. If I decide to do so, can I be confident that Drivesafe and Blknight will also reveal their qialifications in electronics? Indeed, will anyone giving opinions on this site be required to list their relevant qualifications? I can't recall any such information being given to date.

[Wilbur]

actually, I just read your original post...

I never called you stupid, I just said that sarcasm is my defence against stupid.

I've also just re-read the thread. I mentioned humour in one of my posts towards you (and at the time actually ment it as just that)

The fact that you drew the conclusion that you were called stupid was your own perception.

potentially the most insightful thing you put in this thread. I just regret that the original post was deleted so no-one else can witness you conducting a SPWOSO

Semantics, you know perfectly well that you inferred I was stupid.

What does SPWOSO mean?

[Blknight.aus]

DC DC charge couplers started out as a basic way of running 12v items on 24v and 24v items on 12v dc. considering just the running of 12v stuff....

the most basic was little more than a diode rectifier with a ballast on one side to act as a dummy load, good for stuff that didnt require good voltage control (say +/-5v on 12v)

next in line was your basic regulated power supply like the ones that you used to use to charge phones from cars better on voltage regulation not so hot on constant current.

then they went switch mode.

now if you have to jump a major voltage bridge, and you cant faff with your alternator to jig it for freakyness the most efficient way of achieving the change is through a switchmode power supply.

thats why we have them...

DC-DC for 12V charging from an alternator is basically a WOFTAM. your alternator is designed to charge 12v to start with, why not let it do its job directly as opposed to through an additional device that burns up power doing it?

The main basic advantage to DC-DC chargers on 12v is they limit the current flow, great for some types of SLA batteries and allowing you to run smaller cabling because you dont have to shunt the current, but really if you want to do that you just parallel a self resetting circuit breaker and a form of current limiter in series between the positive terminals of the batteries. a little math to pick the size of the breaker and the current limiter ( I normally use a headlight bulb) and ta-ding, you've got a sub $10 steam engine tech current limiting charger Perfect for protecting wiring and slow charging SLA type batteries without removing the max voltage topping ability of the alternator.

[Blknight.aus]

Semantics, you know perfectly well that you inferred I was stupid.

What does SPWOSO mean?

Actually I didnt, I was backing the you're poorly informed or wrong line... thats a leap you made yourself...

SPWOSO...

from MISPWOSO, the Maximillion Institute of Slowly and Painfully Working Out the Surprisingly Obvious

[Wilbur]

If dc to dc chargers were better at charging, surely a d4 or rrs would already have one lol :wasntme: i have a n70 in the disco that is very old, a very tiny deep cycle which is also old, i use a redarc and never had any problems, and the battery in the van is always charged to, it is run from the second battery, dunno if i have it hooked up right but it works like a treat running 2 fridges all the lights and gizmos in both the car and van

As I have posted, I believe that the D4 most likely does have multi-stage charging. I will advise in due course, if I am not banned.

Please understand that a DC - DC convertor is needed in order to provide multi-stage charging to an additional battery in an aftermarket situation. The important point is that multi-stage charging IS required. The vehicle alternator can be set up (by the manufacturer) to provide multi-stage charging FOR THE CAR BATTERY without the need for a DC - DC convertor. I believe the D4 / RRS will have done this, because LR understand the need for multi-stage charging.

[isuzurover]

As I have posted, I believe that the D4 most likely does have multi-stage charging. I will advise in due course, if I am not banned.

Please understand that a DC - DC convertor is needed in order to provide multi-stage charging to an additional battery in an aftermarket situation. The important point is that multi-stage charging IS required. The vehicle alternator can be set up (by the manufacturer) to provide multi-stage charging FOR THE CAR BATTERY without the need for a DC - DC convertor. I believe the D4 / RRS will have done this, because LR understand the need for multi-stage charging.

A whole pile of assertions but no facts!?!?!

We know that D1s and D2s definitely don't have multistage chargers, so why is one suddenly needed for the D3 or D4??? - which despite all the extra electronics isn't all that different.

If a 2nd battery is added, why is a multi-stage charger suddenly needed???

I am starting to believe you might sell these devices???

[drivesafe]

Wilbur, don’t make yourself a martyr, both Dave and myself work in this field and have had plenty of hands on experience with batteries and how they work.

From your posts and you have stated as much yourself, you base your wealth of knowledge on what you have read, which is mostly advertising hype.

You have also continually posted up info you had misunderstood, as being fact.

What you have not done is post up any info that actually relates to the real world.

Read all you want, but until you actually understand what your reading, and this is not a shot at you, but you continually use info claiming one thing, when it means something totally unrelated, so your replies have to be continually corrected.

A perfect example was your reference to the different voltage setting on battery chargers. You read about it and got it completely wrong.

Again, while you continue to post up erroneous info, it’s going to get corrected.

By the way, D3, D4, RRS and RR alternators all have VARIABLE voltage operations, THIS IS NOT MULTI STAGE CHARGING and the voltage variations are again for something totally unrelated to battery charging, but this still does not stop ALL TYPES of 12v batteries from fully charging.

This is based on hands on experience and loads of feedback from many, MANY customers.

But once again, you have read something and got the reason for why it is done totally wrong.

So if your happy to be sucked in by the advertising hype that is used to sell these devices so be it, but don’t go making out people who own and/or work with these vehicles and see what REALLY happens, don’t know what they are talking about when we explain why the ad hype you have been reading is nothing but BS.

[Blknight.aus]

just another thought...

why would you want digitally set staged charging when you could have analog variable charging?.

what happens if you go outside the parameters of the Staged charging system?

[Wilbur]

I give up. You hurl so much abuse at me that a newbie, Braddo, page 5, comments on it, but when I try to fight back with a little of my own nastiness, you delete my post. You demand that I back up anything I say, yet you do not do so yourself.

This is no longer the forum I thought it was, so I will be leaving and post no more. You can now say what you like about me with no fears that I will respond.

[TerryO]

Come on guys no need for it to get to this stage that people are throwing rocks hard at each other as has been happening and has led to old Wilbur feeling like he needs to leave for good.

How can a discussion over a bloody silly charging system get this out of shape.

What is it with the D3/4 section, recently Grumdriva got smashed for not agreeing with the locals now this has gone to far as well. No other section on this website has so many disagreements that end in people feeling like they should quit the website.

Drivesafe hate to say it but telling Wilbur that what he was saying was crap was what started this all going pear shaped. This website works well because of friendly and good hearted banter and the occssional ribbing between its members not people insulting each other.

Its one thing to point out that someone might have got it wrong but I think it went to far and then Wilbur felt like he needed to defend himself and the whole thing just went on from there.

So come on Mods how about calming this all down and getting everyone back on the same page and lets not lose another long term member as well as scaring the crap out of potential new members reading all this nasty tripe who then decide not to sign up because they don't want to be a member of a site with so much aggro.

cheers,
Terry

[rmp]

Sorry, been slow into this thread. I am closing it now because it has got out of hand.

TerryO is spot on.

It doesn't matter how wrong someone is, you can still be polite.

And if you want to remain on this forum, subsitute "must" for "can".

I will PM Wilbur and see if he'll come back. I think he's learning a lesson, and I hope others will too.

If users troll deliberately we can ban them, but there's a world of difference between ignorance, over-enthuisasm and deliberate intention to create havoc.