A question for sparkies.

[p38arover]

My garage is currently (no pun intended) wired through this distribution board:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/1114.jpg

After some reconfiguration to put all the lighting on one row and the GPOs on the other (and some new GPO circuits added), I'd like to label all the lighting circuits and GPOs to indicate to which breaker they are wired.

How would one label them as one sees in commercial buildings, e.g., would it be Row 1 CB1, etc?

Of course this wiring will be done by an electrician.

[kaa45]

Just make sure the spelling and grammar are correct....you know what Ron's like
.....:D :wasntme:

[rovercare]

Why for? Row's and slots like a PLC if you wish, i.e. Row 1, Slot 1- 1/1

But whats wrong with littles stickers stipulating whats what and your only gonna reset whats tripped anyhow:D

[shining]

Hi Ron,

Normally label the Distribution Board first. If it is the only board in the building it would be "DB1". Most commonly after that the circuit breakers are numbered sequentially. Starting at (you guessed it) 1. The real value though comes in labelling the far end. It is easy to label power points ( eg DB1CB1) lights can be harder but I always write the CB # on the sheathing (that is hidden in the wall/ceiling). In a domestic situation it is also useful to label literally i.e welder, workshop power, outside lighting etc.
Good plan!

[scarry]

That board looks like it is labelled pretty well:D

Much better than most of the boards i see around the place:eek::)

[Mick_Marsh]

I wouldn't change the descriptions on the breakers.
The DB No. and CB No. are usually labelled on the GPO or equipment isolator.

Don't usually label rows. More likely to see them labelled CB1, CB2, CB3, etc.
Or, If you want to use Australian Standards -Q01, -Q02, -Q03, etc.

[p38arover]

Thanks gents.

I was thinking that all the lighting ccts would go through one main switch and the GPOs through the other main switch - seeing as there is one on each row.

The board is one I bought 20 years ago and had installed. It was overkill at the time but was installed with an eye for the future.

The switches and breakers were in it when I bought it secondhand from where I worked.

The garage consists of a double garage with a carport on the side. The carport was closed in 25 years ago and was my modelling workshop. In one corner of the garage is my electronics workshop. I want separate lighting and power feeds to each.

I need to get the supply from the house to the garage upgraded as I plan to install air conditioning into the garage and that draws 14A. As it is, whenever my air compressor is running, the fluorescent lights pulse.

I'll dig the trench and run the conduit from the house to the garage for the electrician. I'm not quite sure what cables he'll need to run, and whether it will be TPS or building wire. I have to burrow under the concrete apron in front of the garage and have the conduit come up inside the garage. I'll core drill through the slab.

I'm also thinking of re-running the telephone cable (and may install a Cat 5 cable for the computers). I hope I can run that conduit in the same trench as the mains.

Of course, I could just stay with WiFi I'm using now and use cordelsss phones.......

...... but I have this Commander PBX system in boxes in the garage and Krone blocks and stuff...... :D

[p38arover]

Or, If you want to use Australian Standards -Q01, -Q02, -Q03, etc.

I looked in my copy of AS/NZS 3000:2000 but must have missed that section. :(

Back to reading it again.

[Blknight.aus]

doesnt matter how you label it, its just going to break....

or did you get someone else to buy it for you?

[bee utey]

When I trenched to lay power on at my block the power went in at 600mm depth, then half back filled and the phone and water at 300mm. Was told this was fine. It was a 100m long trench you see and I was so glad not to do it twice.

[wrinklearthur]

When I trenched to lay power on at my block the power went in at 600mm depth, then half back filled and the phone and water at 300mm. Was told this was fine. It was a 100m long trench you see and I was so glad not to do it twice.
Hi bee utey

That does ring a bell for the depths, I believe that the conduit should be orange for power, white for phone and light grey for the cat 5. could be wrong though! please check with someone that has a current cableling licence.

Cheers Arthur

Blue paint for water

[p38arover]

Yes, my present conduits are orange for power and grey for phone. I doubt I can use the orange conduit for new wiring as it has a few sharp right angle bends - not the large radius bends one would expect. I'm not sure that we could pull new wire through it. The existing power conduit is also very close to the surface (less than 200mm) near the garage as I found this week whilst digging a trench for drainage - another reason I want to run new ones.

600mm trench depth as mentioned by Bee Utey sounds familiar. I think I need to go an hire a machine. I just don't want to hit the sewer which runs across the yard and under the garage (There are two sewer access points in the garage floor).

I suppose I now need a licenced cabler for the phone, etc. Mine was done when I was a Principal Technical Officer in the telecomms business and one didn't need an Austel licence.

[p38arover]

Why for? Row's and slots like a PLC if you wish, i.e. Row 1, Slot 1- 1/1

But whats wrong with littles stickers stipulating whats what and your only gonna reset whats tripped anyhow:D

It's more an issue of knowing what needs to be operated to isolate a circuit.

Years ago, I was in charge of a maintenance workshop in OTC Head Office. The electrician in Head Office was one of my blokes but he was a bugger for NOT maintaining wiring records. His method of finding live circuits before I took over the section was to just cut the cables with his pliers (Crescent brand). Live circuits blew the cutting jaws away. He soon stopped that when I refused to replace his pliers. He still wouldn't maintain wiring records, though.

At least my electricians when I managed the OTC Paddington and Broadway international telecomms buildings did do their job properly.

[Mick_Marsh]

I looked in my copy of AS/NZS 3000:2000 but must have missed that section. :(

Back to reading it again.
Different standard no. AS1103 Item Designations. May have been replaced by an IEC no.
You won't find that info in AS3000 Wiring Rules.
Wouldn't worry about it. CB1 is just fine.

A little hint, Install the cables as you lay the conduit. Its much aesier than pulling the cable after.

[Blknight.aus]

A little hint, Install the cables as you lay the conduit. Its much aesier than pulling the cable after.

seconded and that also lets you get the cable through some seriously bent up routes. just go one section of the conduit at a time, a bit time consuming but less consuming than if the cable jambs and you snap the pull through.

[Vern]

power needs to be 600 deep in H/D conduit, you need to install underground power line marking tape at 300 deep on top of the power conduit. Comms stuff in comms conduit at 300 is fine.
Your sparky by law has to label the switchboard anyway, but more than likely he will just put power stickers under the power circuits and light stickers under the light circuits. If you were to label it CB1, then you should label all the applicable power points CB1 etc...
i'd run 6mm2 TPS minimum to your shed, good for 32Amp, possibly 40A depending on how its run.
14A is a big split sytem, or an old one

[p38arover]

Different standard no. AS1103 Item Designations. May have been replaced by an IEC no.
You won't find that info in AS3000 Wiring Rules.
Wouldn't worry about it. CB1 is just fine.

A little hint, Install the cables as you lay the conduit. Its much easier than pulling the cable after.

Ahh. I don't have AS1103. I may have to go back to where I used to work to download it.

I have a spring steel coiled pull through. I want to have as much prep work done for him as possible (whoever it ends up being).


power needs to be 600 deep in H/D conduit, you need to install underground power line marking tape at 300 deep on top of the power conduit. Comms stuff in comms conduit at 300 is fine.
Your sparky by law has to label the switchboard anyway, but more than likely he will just put power stickers under the power circuits and light stickers under the light circuits. If you were to label it CB1, then you should label all the applicable power points CB1 etc...
i'd run 6mm2 TPS minimum to your shed, good for 32Amp, possibly 40A depending on how its run.
14A is a big split sytem, or an old one

Whoever wired the garage up before we bought the house didn't bury it very deeply and didn't put tape above it.

The labelling on the board is what I did a few days ago. It's temporary until the job is done then they will be replaced with computer generated and printed labels. The original labels done by the sparky were just as you stated.

The aircon is the old WeatherWall that I removed from the front of the house a couple of months ago (it was replaced by a ducted system). I either install it or find a way to get rid of it.

I'll open up the junction block to see what wire is currently used for the feed-in. I suspect smaller, possibly 4mm2, because of the pulsing lights when my 13CFM air compressor is running.

[Basil135]

I have just connected the shed up to power.

I ran all of the cables internally myself, and also a 6mmTPS to the main box. This is 800 - 900 underground in orange hd conduit, 300 cover, then cat 5 & alarm cables in another conduit, another 300 cover, warning tape, 200 cover and then more tape just under the surface. This is mainly so that I know where it is when I start to run the irrigation pipes, and know if I hit the first tape, I still have a bit of distance before hitting the next one.

All the internals in the shed were run inside conduit, and each GPO is numbered, and on its own circuit.

[p38arover]

I've measured the cables to the garage.

From the main switchboard at the front of the house to the rear (about 18 metres) where there is an external GPO, the cable is 2mm dia solid wire in TPS. That computes to 3.14 sq mm.

From this GPO to the garage (about 12 metres of cable to the distribution board, it's 7/0.9mm building wire. That computes to 4.45 sq mm. I can't find a listing for that size wire, just 7/1.04 which is 5.94 sq mm.

Late edit: I just found the General Cable catalogue on line. The cable to the garage is probably 7/0.85 or 4 sq mm. which is, in my opinion, too small although General rate 4 sq mm at 30A in conduit in air. They rate 4 sq mm TPS at 40A buried in a duct buy I don't know if building wire is higher rated in a buried conduit.

[blitz]

Hi Ron
when looking at cable size there are 3 factors that need to be considered, current draw, voltage drop and short circuit.

Your best bet would be to talk to an electrician and seeing what they are happy for you to do. minimum standard for underground AS/NZ3000:2007 is 500mm no need to go any deeper

Work out what your max load will ever be i.e. a/c and air comp and then how many gpo's you want or have, how many lights and what sort, then the cable size can be worked out - rule of thumb add 10% extra current for safety margin

[warren9981]

Easiest way to get a cable through after the conduit is laid is to tie a plastic shopping bag to a builders string line shove it into the conduit and stick a vacuum cleaner in the other end. When the bag comes through use the string as a draw cable.
It is fine to run cat 5e (better to put in cat 6 though) in the same conduit as telephone cable. Make sure you use outdoor cable (black sheath) and not indoor cable (beige sheath). Also, put in a communications pit at each end to make life easier for yourself.

[p38arover]

Hi Ron
when looking at cable size there are 3 factors that need to be considered, current draw, voltage drop and short circuit.

Your best bet would be to talk to an electrician and seeing what they are happy for you to do. minimum standard for underground AS/NZ3000:2007 is 500mm no need to go any deeper

Work out what your max load will ever be i.e. a/c and air comp and then how many gpo's you want or have, how many lights and what sort, then the cable size can be worked out - rule of thumb add 10% extra current for safety margin


Thanks Blitz. Yep. Will do. I just need to find an AULRO eleccie! The previous work was done a long time ago and I can't remember which of my then electrician friends did it.


Easiest way to get a cable through after the conduit is laid is to tie a plastic shopping bag to a builders string line shove it into the conduit and stick a vacuum cleaner in the other end. When the bag comes through use the string as a draw cable.
It is fine to run cat 5e (better to put in cat 6 though) in the same conduit as telephone cable. Make sure you use outdoor cable (black sheath) and not indoor cable (beige sheath). Also, put in a communications pit at each end to make life easier for yourself.

LOL! I like that idea. My existing phone cable is black outdoor stuff. I have a roll of Cat 5e so I'll probably use that. I had better look into domestic comms pits. I didn't know they were available. To be honest, it would be easier to go cordless phone and WiFi - except the cordless phone is struggling with range in the garage.

Where I made a mistake is in that my yard used to have a swimming pool. When it was dug out about 3 years ago, I should have laid new conduits during the backfilling of the hole - ready for future use.

I'm digging 20 metre long drainage trench at the moment and I keep having to use a crowbar owing to the large amount of broken earthenware pipe in the fill. I'm not looking forward to doing another trench for cables. I don't want to use a machine as I am not sure where the existing cables and sewerage lines are.

[warren9981]

I have in some locations Cat 5e running Gig ethernet so it can be done. Just need to be really careful when terminating the ends.

Comms pits can be purchased from most electrical wholesalers. I get mine from Lawrence & Hanson here in Lismore. But check out your local.

If you need a good cordless, get an Engenius. They are a commercial cordless and have a range of about 5kms over open ground. I have a few in wrecking yards and they work when crawling around inside a huge stack of vehicles down the back of the yard.
They are a bit pricey though at around a grand.
Link is here. EnGenius Durafon longe-range cordless phones (http://www.aristel.com.au/engenius.html)
If you get 2 of the handsets you can also use them independently of the base as a two way radio on your own private digital channel.