An Interesting illustration of Traction Control settings

[Tote]

Last weekend we went down to the snowys and did the Deddick trail, camped at Jacksons Crossing and Native Dog and then did Cobberas Track. On Monday afternoon not far from the end of Coberras we got one of the cruisers stuck on a rocky patch which my Disco made it up without too many problems.
Following us was a Disco 3 with 17"rims and muddies. He had several attempts at getting up the pinch that I had driven up without too many issues. After watching him have 4 goes and get ready to get his winch going I asked him if he was in Rock Crawl mode. He replied "No Its just on the standard setting"
After he set it to Rock Crawl I got him to have another go and he made it up with a minimum of fuss.
What I should have done was told him it was my 18" rims and grabbers that made it so easy and offered to swap rims and tyres:twisted:

Since it didnt happen without pictures here's a couple of my truck below.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Regards,
Tote

[WhiteD3]

So why was he in "normal" mode in the first place?

I always select an off road mode as soon as I leave the hard top; at the very least grass/gravel/snow.

[bbyer]

So why was he in "normal" mode in the first place?

I think most owners do not believe the knob does anything. It took me quite awhile to get used to using it. It was not so much that I did not believe that it worked, as I just tended to forget about it. As long as the 3 stayed on the road, well all was well.

What probably got me used to using it regularly in the winter was, well I must give the credit to the HP tyres. It was positively dangerous to drive on snowy roads in normal with the HP's. When one would attempt to cross a snow ridge, the 3 would suddenly jump into the next lane.

Once I tuned myself into using the "knob", I found that not only was the gas pedal remapped, but something else was as well. The 3 became quite manageable in winter driving even on the HP tyres.

I have since discovered that with a set of real snow tyres and the ruts program dialled in, that deep snow, well the more the better. It keeps cars off the streets and leaves most domestic and off shore 4x4's following a cloud of snow.

[Tote]

So why was he in "normal" mode in the first place?

I always select an off road mode as soon as I leave the hard top; at the very least grass/gravel/snow.

I suspect that he did not know how to use his vehicle properly. I'm involved with driver education at a club level and it is quite amazing the number of people who don't know what the traction control and other settings in their vehicle do. Although you would think that if you had gone to the trouble to fit a winch you would have read the owners manual........

Regards,
Tote

[WhiteD3]

Although you would think that if you had gone to the trouble to fit a winch you would have read the owners manual........

If you'd gone to the trouble of buying an $80k 4WD you'd think you'd read the manual as well :confused:

[rmp]

Could be he wasn't in low range. Rock crawl can make a differnece but that ledge doesn't look like it'll make the Disco run out of suspension travel so doubt that would be much of an issue. DSC may have been cutting in too, and it could also be the car was in Drive and had selected too high a gear for the situation. So, Rock Crawl would select a lower (perhaps better) gear, lock the ETC up quicker, force low range and reduce ESC intervention.

Could also be he finally selected the correct line!

The terrain response settings modify:

- throttle response
- auto gear shift points
- DSC sensitivity
- front/rear torque lockup
- ETC sensitvity
and more I forget. The biggest differences are grass/gravel/snow to rock crawl. Sand is also quite different.

[Presto]

I recently took my D3 off-road for the first time, but not after speaking with other D3 owners in the club. I was recommended to turn off DSC when off-road.
(hold down DSC button until you get a message it's off).

I also had a good play with some different terrain response settings on a 45 deg (rough guess) inclined with mix of hard mud and rock:

Low range, off-road height, std tyres.

No Terrain response - failed after 3 attempts
Set to 'Mud Ruts' - drove up first time

It was as though there was no CDL in when the terrain response is off (std setting).
I then tried something sligtly more difficult with a turn half way up and lumps/holes accross axles.

Set to 'Mud Ruts' - failed after 2 attempts
Set to 'Rock Crawl' (whilst at stuck postion) - drove out

I can't claim a different line was the reason, as I tried rock crawl from the stuck position, so it does seem to lock things up a little tighter!

Amazing what the 'knob' does!! :angel: ...but some scuffs on the alloys has left me searching for steel's and A/T's!

[Bushwanderer]

It seems to me that TR is for knobs.

Unfortunately, some knobs aren't even clued in for that. :eek:

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Duck's Guts]

Last weekend we went down to the snowys and did the Deddick trail, camped at Jacksons Crossing and Native Dog and then did Cobberas Track...

Nice country 'round them parts!

How was Cobberas Track & McFarlane Flat Track? Normally they are pretty cut-up & eroded at this end of the "roads open" season. I also consider them one of the harder 'main' tracks in this eastern part of the VHC. Any sections that you considered you would have difficulty driving back up again if you had to turn around?

[Presto]

It seems to me that TR is for knobs.


So you can drive everything without it?

[Celtoid]

When I had the Wranglers on, I found that they were next to useless in soft mud....slick instantly and start burrowing in. Even when Mud & Ruts was selected. I'd select Rock Crawl and the D4 would pretty much 'walk' out of most areas I'd be in.

On occasions since owning the car, I've gone on a few very easy tracks that have a few obstacles and just basically mucked around with the different settings just to see what the TC does and doesn't do.

Fitment of the Scorpions has made a huge difference but as has been stated before, the wrong line or incorrect speed and physics wins the arguement.

Of course, if I had the e-Diff, I'd have more cards in my hand.....LOL!!!

:)

[Tote]

Nice country 'round them parts!

How was Cobberas Track & McFarlane Flat Track? Normally they are pretty cut-up & eroded at this end of the "roads open" season. I also consider them one of the harder 'main' tracks in this eastern part of the VHC. Any sections that you considered you would have difficulty driving back up again if you had to turn around?

McfFarlane and Cobberas weren't as hard as the Deddick trail was on Saturday, we had to recover vehicles 3 times due mostly to being on the southern side of the hill on the way out and it being a bit damp. We had 5 vehicles, 3 with winches so we were reasonably well equipped.
I reckon Macfarlane would have been about as difficult as Coberras on the uphill. We had to recover an older 100 series with no traction control or lockers on the bit in the photos.

Regards,
Tote

[IGL002]

It is spectacular country. I did the Barry Way a couple of months ago in my Defender but was not impressed by the bare dirt camp grounds on the Barry and McKillops Bridge etc...

[gghaggis]

Just ran an extreme 4wd course this weekend (minimum requirement of AT tyres and underbody protection). On _very_ rough hill climbs and severe angles, you will especially notice the difference in car behaviour between Mud/Ruts and Rock Crawl. Cars with the rear eDiff show the difference to a greater degree.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Gordon,
I respect you greatly, but are you saying that TR overcomes driver incompetence? If not let's sheet the blame where it should be.

Best Wishes,
Peter

[gghaggis]

Hi Gordon,
I respect you greatly, but are you saying that TR overcomes driver incompetence? If not let's sheet the blame where it should be.

Best Wishes,
Peter

Hmm - if by 'incompetence' you mean the term in its general sense, then no, it doesn't. You still need to know when to apply the various TR and other settings to get the best performance out of the car.

If you mean lack of 4WD experience in general (which I wouldn't term 'incompetence' as such), then yes, TR will go some way to overcoming that, providing you know how and when to use it.

Clear as mud?

Cheers,

Gordon

[Presto]

Hi Gordon,
I respect you greatly, but are you saying that TR overcomes driver incompetence? If not let's sheet the blame where it should be.

Best Wishes,
Peter

TR is not a tool designed specifically for the inexperienced (also with reference to your "TR is for Knobs" earlier in this thread).

If you lift a wheel with TR off, you're not going anywhere without momentum, irrelevant of your experience! To me, it's like driving with open diffs.
In my opinion, in low grip conditions, selecting a TR setting is a minimum requirement, in the the same way as locking your centre diff in older Land Rovers.

[rmp]

TR overcomes driver incompetence in the same way as difflocks, long-travel suspension, mud tyres, low range gearing and a strong torquey engine.

[rmp]

One point about Rock Crawl - it is indeed all goodness, but runs the vehicles in very low gears which reduces the effectiveness of the quick-lockup traction control. Often you'll want to change up for less torque and thus wheelspin, so I select Command Shift to control the gears.

[Presto]

TR overcomes driver incompetence in the same way as difflocks, long-travel suspension, mud tyres, low range gearing and a strong torquey engine.

I agree that it makes it easy for anyone to jump in and have a go (surely this was LR's plan and resulted in many awards), but are you also saying that a good driver could tackle most terrain without any TR selected?

[Tombie]

I agree that it makes it easy for anyone to jump in and have a go (surely this was LR's plan and resulted in many awards), but are you also saying that a good driver could tackle most terrain without any TR selected?

I'd say that's correct...

People around the world have driven Land rovers everywhere for decades with open diffs front and rear!!!!

The ability to drive a clean line, good throttle and brake control, correct tyre pressures and an eye for the terrain will get you a very, very long way :D

TR assists further, and with articulation limits of some modern designs further improves this...

After all, motion is a simple equation.
Traction + torque = motion...
(very simplistic)

[rmp]

I'd say that's correct...

People around the world have driven Land rovers everywhere for decades with open diffs front and rear!!!!

The ability to drive a clean line, good throttle and brake control, correct tyre pressures and an eye for the terrain will get you a very, very long way :D

TR assists further, and with articulation limits of some modern designs further improves this...

After all, motion is a simple equation.
Traction + torque = motion...
(very simplistic)

Exactly right!!!!

A change of line by 50mm will often do more than any twisting of the TR knob.

[Presto]

...but if there's no line that keeps all 4 wheels in contact with some grip, you have to turn your knob to get out! ohhhh er .......:angel:

[Bushwanderer]

SNIP
are you also saying that a good driver could tackle most terrain without any TR selected?

Exactly. I'm glad that you were paying attention. ;)

[Presto]

Oh well, good luck on the rougher stuff! [thumbsupbig]

[Tombie]

Oh well, good luck on the rougher stuff! [thumbsupbig]

I will happily take that challenge.... :cool:

[Tombie]

Since it didnt happen without pictures here's a couple of my truck below.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Regards,
Tote

Seriously... A D1, D2 or Defender would have eaten that step...

:angel:

[Presto]

I will happily take that challenge.... :cool:

We would have to take your knob off you, to be sure you weren't 'cheating'!! :wasntme:

[TuffRR]

Seriously... A D1, D2 or Defender would have eaten that step...

:angel:

If i'm right, the reason the D3 didn't make it up was lack of traction. All things being equal, unless the D1 or Defender had traction control they probably would have not made it either.

[gghaggis]

Seriously... A D1, D2 or Defender would have eaten that step...

:angel:

Probably would, if the driver knew what he was doing. But so would a D3/4/RRS, which is the whole point. In the hands of an experienced driver, a D3/4/RRS will run rings around a D1/2/Defender

Cheers

Gordon

[Tombie]

Sorry but have to agree to disagree.

After being on a trip with multiple D3/RRS over broken terrain this was observed.

- The 3 and RRS ride nicer on rough roads/tracks.
- The D2 was simpler to operate
- The D3 suffered more underbody hits
- The D2 climbed cross up hill climbs with 4 wheels constantly on the ground whilst all the D3 and RRS picked up wheels requiring the TC and eDiffs to bail the vehicle out of every hole.
- At speed the later vehicles were quieter
- The D3s all caused the trip to be slower on the sandy tracks once we hit 50km/h :)

I have both available to use, for hard tracks the D2 wins hands down, a Defender even more so.
For faster trips and endless corrugations I'd go the D3 or later ;)
Would I want the D3 hitting objects a lot? No way, won't last long!

In the case posted above, a D1,2,Def with cdl activated would have just climbed straight over that little rock and keep going.... The D3 needed a knob twiddle to proceed. :D

[Presto]

In the case posted above, a D1,2,Def with cdl activated would have just climbed straight over that little rock and keep going.... The D3 needed a knob twiddle to proceed. :D

Isn't a D3 knob twiddle the equivalent of activating cdl!? ....I realise it does a lot more, but with TR off, doesn't the centre diff/clutch act as an open centre diff?

I have both a D1 and D3, and have to admit that driving the D1 is more fun and gives you more of a feeling of achievement. The D3 with TR is kinda cheating, it just does it all for you! :angel:

I'd def agree with the potential for damage to a D3 though, and it does seem to like lifting wheels! :cool:

[rmp]

Sorry but have to agree to disagree.

After being on a trip with multiple D3/RRS over broken terrain this was observed.

- The 3 and RRS ride nicer on rough roads/tracks.
- The D2 was simpler to operate
- The D3 suffered more underbody hits
- The D2 climbed cross up hill climbs with 4 wheels constantly on the ground whilst all the D3 and RRS picked up wheels requiring the TC and eDiffs to bail the vehicle out of every hole.
- At speed the later vehicles were quieter
- The D3s all caused the trip to be slower on the sandy tracks once we hit 50km/h :)

I have both available to use, for hard tracks the D2 wins hands down, a Defender even more so.
For faster trips and endless corrugations I'd go the D3 or later ;)
Would I want the D3 hitting objects a lot? No way, won't last long!

In the case posted above, a D1,2,Def with cdl activated would have just climbed straight over that little rock and keep going.... The D3 needed a knob twiddle to proceed. :D

agree with this. A D3/D4/RRS does not run rings around a traction-control equipped Defender, and especially not one with a rear locker as well. In some situations the modern car it is better, but once you get into the real hardcore stuff the Defender still wins - clearance, gearing, ETC as well even if not quite as good. The modern cars run out of clearance real quick and are heavier. I know Land Rover are keen to say the Disco is better offroad but overall, I'm not convinced at all. Different strengths, the modern cars are really good an inching over things. While we're at it, they are not the best offroaders on the market either. That would be the Wrangler Rubicon.

Quite willing to take my Defender TD5 out and fail to drive somewhere that a D3 manages. Then we'll go do some rocky stuff ;-)

[gghaggis]

Quite willing to take my Defender TD5 out and fail to drive somewhere that a D3 manages. Then we'll go do some rocky stuff ;-)

Quite happy to take you on Robert ;)

Should we meet in the middle?

More seriously, I'll stand by my comments. With equivalent tyres, with an experienced Def driver and an experienced D4/RRS driver, with an equivalent ambivalence to damage, in most conditions the latter will get further. There will of course, be specific tracks that will suit one over the other. This is true even between the RRS and D4.

And yes, the Rubicon is brilliant off-road. Pity it's crap at everything else.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Celtoid]

Quite happy to take you on Robert ;)

Should we meet in the middle?

More seriously, I'll stand by my comments. With equivalent tyres, with an experienced Def driver and an experienced D4/RRS driver, with an equivalent ambivalence to damage, in most conditions the latter will get further. There will of course, be specific tracks that will suit one over the other. This is true even between the RRS and D4.

And yes, the Rubicon is brilliant off-road. Pity it's crap at everything else.

Cheers,

Gordon

I was wondering how long that gauntlet was going to stay on the ground….LOL!!!

What do you perceive as the differences between the RRS and D4 that you alluded to? 'Added in'...Should have mentioned, never even been in an RRS but thought that they are based on the same chassis as the D4.

I’ve been meaning to post the question…”Why did some owners choose the RRS over the D4?”

No interest in starting a wee’ing contest, just a genuine interest.

Cheers,

Kev.

[Tombie]

Wheelbase mainly :cool:

[gghaggis]

Yes, the RRS has a shorter wheelbase, which can make it a little more untidy on some rutted hill-climbs, but more maneuverable on others and gives a better ramp-over angle.

Despite what the LR quoted figures may lead one to believe, the 3 RRS's we've had on our trips (plus my one) at super-extended height have the same clearance as the D3/4 - when fitted with the same size tyres!

Cheers,

Gordon

[DiscoWeb]

I have both available to use, for hard tracks the D2 wins hands down, a Defender even more so.
For faster trips and endless corrugations I'd go the D3 or later ;)
Would I want the D3 hitting objects a lot? No way, won't last long!

In the case posted above, a D1,2,Def with cdl activated would have just climbed straight over that little rock and keep going.... The D3 needed a knob twiddle to proceed. :D

I think that is the point.

For most owners, and I stress most, the fact that your D3 or D4 might be just a little less capable (or they are not prepared to risk the damage on tougher tracks like that last pinch on the Coberras Track in the VHC) would be significantly out weighted by the comfort and refinement you would enjoy during the 500 km drive from Sydney or 250 km from Melbourne getting to that point, and how easily and accomplished they are on 99% of the rest of the off road terrain encountered on similar trips.

As shown by some, if you are prepared to stretch a D3 /D4/RRS and risk the potential damage then in the hands of an experienced off road driver they will go almost anywhere a defender D1/D2 will go.

If you really want a vehicle to throw are very hard stuff you would probably have a second vehicle for that type of trip anyway, which seems to be the way a few people go.

For the sake of turning a knob I am pretty happy with the D3.

The only other point some seem to make, which seems to be made more in the context of "back in my day there was none of this fan-dangled electronic traction stuff" is that they make it to easy. I think they call that progress.

There is an issue if as a novice, the fancy traction control lets you get in too deep to get out. But reality dictates that most people driving their newish $70+K 4WD will rarely get it in so deep in such remote country that it will cause them anything more than embarrassment when they need to be recovered. This goes as much for top end Toyota's and Nissan's as much as Land Rovers in my mind.

I know to date I have elected not to attempt things well before I think the D3 would have stopped or I have risked damaging it to point it would fail. Also know as "fear of angering wife" I think.

George

[gghaggis]

Also know as "fear of angering wife" I think.

George

A well-known medical condition - especially around my household :wasntme:

Cheers,

Gordon

[Presto]

A well-known medical condition - especially around my household :wasntme:

Cheers,

Gordon

I 3rd that! ...she's even managed to wangle her own plates onto our D3, complete with pink flowers.... :mad:

[rmp]

All good points!

The RRS has slightly smaller diameter tyres which accounts for a slightly lower clearnace. The difference is tiny and would be erased by non-standard tyres or even differing inflations. LR's figures are very precise, more so than anything we'd typically do. The shorter wheelbase is a boon, personally I reckon it's fine on hills and if it isn't, then what of the Defender 90???

No question the D3 is the best all-round, but this was about offroad capability only. I do not accept the D4 etc runs rings around a Defender. I do agree in a given situation one or other will have an advantage but that is likely to be slight.

The real deal is as Gordon said, ambivalence to damage or another way, acceptance of risk. That makes the bigger difference. I am far more cautious with the D3 than Defender offroad.

Any real car offroad comparison is quite involved and needs precise control of the environment and removal of the drivers as factors. Going on a random drive is fun of course and provides talking points but doesn't prove a great deal either way. The choice of line should be restricted, but to certain degrees only; one major D3 advantage is a very tight turning circle allowing it to take lines the Defender cannot. Therefore, restricting both cars to the same line is in some cases unrealistic. But in other cases it would be valid as often there is no choice, the ledge is the ledge and either you have clearance or not.

The Wrangler does fun very well as well as offroad. Apart from that, well, yes its talents are quite limited.

Traction control getting you further in - same argument given to lockers, muddies, winches...doesn't really matter either you're in or not.

As I said before ETC is for novices in the same was as twin lockers. They're just driving aids, although ETC is very easy to use.

The Disco is practical, the Sport is more fun. Personally, I'd rather drive a Sport. I drive the D3 instead because I have to, not because I want to over the Sport. That is why I occasionally have a potshot at Sport owners, I'm jealous! Except of that pink stupdity belonging to that ball-kicker.

[101RRS]

Tote, - I drove past you on Hindmarsh at Symonston early this afternoon - gave you a toot but you still ignored me:(.

How can you ignore a great looking car like a RRS?:D

Garry

[gghaggis]

All good points!

No question the D3 is the best all-round, but this was about offroad capability only. I do not accept the D4 etc runs rings around a Defender. I do agree in a given situation one or other will have an advantage but that is likely to be slight.

The real deal is as Gordon said, ambivalence to damage or another way, acceptance of risk. That makes the bigger difference. I am far more cautious with the D3 than Defender offroad.

Any real car offroad comparison is quite involved and needs precise control of the environment and removal of the drivers as factors.

Well if your going to get all serious about it ............ :p

I must admit that my "run rings around ..." comment probably relays a sense of a greater advantage than really exists. There are quite a few situations though, where the difference is a little more than "slight". Having had the luxury of owning a D3 that was primarily a comp car, I'd say that when pushed hard, it is overall the better off-roader. We've beaten the Wranglers, as well as the Defer's and D1's within our class and the one above, and it certainly wasn't because I'm more skilled than other competitors. It was overall ability of the vehicle. This was on precisely controlled tracks where everyone must take the same line, although admittedly I had the optional rear eDiff.

In terms of competition work, where the D3/4 is let down is by it's ramp-over angle. Where it shines is its TC/TR, torque and lack of hanging diffs. On tight, steep tracks, you can't overstate the advantage the TC/TR gives you in full maneuverability whilst maintaining traction. Locked diffs don't do that.

Cheers,

Gordon

[rmp]

Totally agree re D3 analysis.

Restricting the line will start to favour one car over another. Locked rear definitely helps, and I did qualify my statement about ETC-equipped Defenders only. My own TD5 Defender also has a locked rear.

BTW I don't think the D1/D2 is as good as the Defender offroad - too small wheel diameter, lacks clearance.

I have seen really capable cars being driven really badly ;-)

[Tote]

Tote, - I drove past you on Hindmarsh at Symonston early this afternoon - gave you a toot but you still ignored me:(.

How can you ignore a great looking car like a RRS?:D

Garry

Trying to run Little girls around to get their plaster off along with attempting to buy goodies for the upcoming trip must have had all my attention...... I'll try harder to ignore you next time:D

Regards,
Tote

[Tote]

Just to add another angle to what is a very interesting debate.......
The vehicles on the trip were as follows:
Petrol 100 series Cruiser. No traction Aids, Cooper AT Tyres
Diesel 100 Series Cruiser. Front and rear lockers 33" Mud Tyres mild lift
Prado. Rear locker and agressive ATs ( not sure of the brand but more agressive than my Generals
Patrol. Muddies lifted 33" muddies. Factory rear LSD 4.2 Turbo

My disco was consistantly better than the petrol cruiser in all conditions. In the real wet clay the diesel cruiser was the best but we had to winch it up one section where we used a strap to get the other vehicles up. There wasn't much between the rest of the vehicles and what difference there was could be put down to driver experience. All these vehicles are tourers and not modified for "hard tracks".

All in all an excellent weekend and the takeaway for me was that if only Nissan would put a decent engine in the Patrol (and not increase the price by $30K) it would be a very strong contender.

Regards,
Tote

[Tombie]

Thanks for this thread people.

A good balanced discussion IMO.

[gghaggis]

I have seen really capable cars being driven really badly ;-)

:eek: Hopefully you didn't get any video of me at that 2004 comp! :eek:

[101RRS]

I agree - when Landrover put in TR in the vehicles it really was so that dummies like me did not have to think about things - in snow then select GGS - on sand then select sand etc and then off you go invincible.

However - of course that is not the case - you also need to know to turn DSc off but you also need to know that it auto activates when you change TR mode. Also most people (and I am one) do not know exactly what happens to the car with each TR selection - does CDL acticate or not, do you auto go into low range, does height change, is TC reduced, does engine power change etc etc etc.

I think this is the knowledge you need to know to get the best out of the D3/D4 etc. However this information is very hard to find out - I have found some of it but a lot is still white man's magic.

Personally I do not think TR which automatically changes things is a good idea - however if I could change the settings that TR control manually I would be a lot happier and a better driver.

Garry

[Celtoid]

Well if your going to get all serious about it ............ :p

I must admit that my "run rings around ..." comment probably relays a sense of a greater advantage than really exists. There are quite a few situations though, where the difference is a little more than "slight". Having had the luxury of owning a D3 that was primarily a comp car, I'd say that when pushed hard, it is overall the better off-roader. We've beaten the Wranglers, as well as the Defer's and D1's within our class and the one above, and it certainly wasn't because I'm more skilled than other competitors. It was overall ability of the vehicle. This was on precisely controlled tracks where everyone must take the same line, although admittedly I had the optional rear eDiff.

In terms of competition work, where the D3/4 is let down is by it's ramp-over angle. Where it shines is its TC/TR, torque and lack of hanging diffs. On tight, steep tracks, you can't overstate the advantage the TC/TR gives you in full maneuverability whilst maintaining traction. Locked diffs don't do that.

Cheers,

Gordon

I just though you meant they had a better turning circle.... ;)

[Owl]

I had another illustration of how well Traction Control / Terrain Response works on my D3 recently.

Over an extended Easter break, we were in far west NSW heading home with the camper trailer in tow and looking for a morning break. Found a big shady tree about 100m off the road up a dry creek bed - other vehicles had been up the bed, so followed in their wheel tracks. I'm guessing the difference between me and the previous vehicles up this creek bed was that they probably weren't towing a camper trailer! The sand was softer than I expected with a particularly soft bit about half way between the road and my intended stopping point. We made it (engine working hard) OK to the tree and had a pleasant, leisurely break.

On restarting, I hit DSC off and took a longish U turn around the tree in order to build some momentum for that really soft patch. It didn't work! The car buried itself to the axles (if that's where independent suspension D3's bury themselves too!) within a car length of the soft stuff.

In the short time I sat there, my thoughts were:
1/ unhook the camper
2/ let some air out of the tyres
3/ some shovel work. Hopefully enough to get the car out. Otherwise...
4/ winch the car out
5/ winch the trailer out
6/ hook up the trailer
7/ pump up the tryes and I'm ready to go again.

What I did was
1/ select Mud Ruts on the terrain response
2/ turn off DSC (again)
3/ drive out

Unbelievable!! The car climbed out of that hole it had just dug for itself and pulled the trailer with it. I started laughing. By the time I was half way back to the road, I was giggling like a school girl. SWMBO thought I had gone mad - she had no idea we might otherwise have otherwise have been there for hours. I didn't even get out of the car.

Ask me again if I love this car!!

Ian

[Celtoid]

I agree - when Landrover put in TR in the vehicles it really was so that dummies like me did not have to think about things - in snow then select GGS - on sand then select sand etc and then off you go invincible.

However - of course that is not the case - you also need to know to turn DSc off but you also need to know that it auto activates when you change TR mode. Also most people (and I am one) do not know exactly what happens to the car with each TR selection - does CDL acticate or not, do you auto go into low range, does height change, is TC reduced, does engine power change etc etc etc.

I think this is the knowledge you need to know to get the best out of the D3/D4 etc. However this information is very hard to find out - I have found some of it but a lot is still white man's magic.

Personally I do not think TR which automatically changes things is a good idea - however if I could change the settings that TR control manually I would be a lot happier and a better driver.

Garry

I've been in situations when the TC doesn't appear to be doing anything at all.....it's reaction/input is inpercievable in some cases and in other less satisfying circumstances, almost non-existant.

The latter case being when you have no forward motion and very low grip....you sometimes have to give it a bit of a jiggle to wake it up. I've sat in mud and at the buttom of sharp gravel inclines wondering when the other wheels were going to do something.

I'm certain that with the eDiff, this would occur faster, or maybe you wouldn't need as much other TC input..

When moving though....even very slowly, the TC just seems to sort issues very quickly and effectively.

[bbyer]

I had another illustration of how well Traction Control / Terrain Response works on my D3 recently.

SHMBO thought I had gone mad - she had no idea we might otherwise have otherwise have been there for hours. I didn't even get out of the car. Ask me again if I love this car!! Ian

I had about the same experience this winter. I was not paying attention and drove into a bit of snowdrift on the side of the road and came to a halt. My wife was just about to blast me for being careless but she hesitated a bit as she did notice me fiddling with the round knob.

Snow ruts etc, and it just lurched ahead, well actually rearward and then out. I could see her actually deflate and later she mumbled something about the "truck" being not all that bad. In this case, she did notice, and figured she was were there for hours.

[Bushwanderer]

Gees guys,
I think that this is the first time that I've turned off a D3 thread before reading it through. My apologies to those of who's posts I missed

I think that we need to have a group BBQ.

[ozscott]

Gees guys,
I think that this is the first time that I've turned off a D3 thread before reading it through. My apologies to those of who's posts I missed

I think that we need to have a group BBQ.


I will bring the D2 and the rump steak/beers...I will climb to the top of a tall mountain and anyone who makes it up in a D3 will get a beer too:D

Cheers

[gghaggis]

I will bring the D2 and the rump steak/beers...I will climb to the top of a tall mountain and anyone who makes it up in a D3 will get a beer too:D

Cheers

Better bring a lot of beers ..............and a fridge :cool:

Cheers,

Gordon

[Presto]

I will bring the D2 and the rump steak/beers...I will climb to the top of a tall mountain and anyone who makes it up in a D3 will get a beer too:D

Cheers

Are we allowed to use TR?? :D

[ozscott]

I love it. You aren't a bad bunch, even if you like playing with your knobs:D

Cheers

[Graeme]

I will bring the D2 and the rump steak/beers...I will climb to the top of a tall mountain and anyone who makes it up in a D3 will get a beer too:D

Cheers
I went to a dealer's demo day in a disused quarry when the D2s were first released, as I had ordered one a few days earlier. The salesman scrambled the D2 up the slope sending gravel flying, showing off what it could do. I stopped my stock RRC at the bottom, idled off in 1st low, stopped half-way up then took-off again in 2nd low. My wife, who stayed with the crowd, later informed me about the Freelander charging up behind me when I stopped.

[ozscott]

I went to a dealer's demo day in a disused quarry when the D2s were first released, as I had ordered one a few days earlier. The salesman scrambled the D2 up the slope sending gravel flying, showing off what it could do. I stopped my stock RRC at the bottom, idled off in 1st low, stopped half-way up then took-off again in 2nd low. My wife, who stayed with the crowd, later informed me about the Freelander charging up behind me when I stopped.


The ones without CDL did tend to be pretty impressive at firing rocks...


Cheers

PS. Did the Freelander stave in its front end on your RRC?

[Graeme]

The first ones had the unconnected CDL, so definitely no CDL for the demo.

I wasn't aware if the FL so no, it didn't. Non-thinking salesman chasing a vehicle up a slippery slope was asking for trouble though.

[TerryO]

There are a few put down comments in this thread about incompetent drivers etc as if anyone using TR is not a real 4 wheel driver.

I would ask those who make these comments how well they themselves drove off road when they first got into 4 wheel driving seriously off road?

Skill and knowledge is something learned from experience not something passed down magically from a parents jeans. We all started some where and I bet all of us have made our fair share of daft mistakes and have looked and sounded pretty stupid occassionally while gaining that experience.

Personally I'd like to meet the perfect person who knows everything and can do everything well and who has not blundered along the way.

cheers,
Terry

[oldsalt]

Personally I'd like to meet the perfect person why knows everything and can do everything well who has not blundered along the way.

cheers,
Terry

perhaps you could try the Tasmanian "Greens" as they seem to fit your description, they are pretty good at telling everybody else in the world how to live their life - what sort of vehicle to drive - where NOT to camp - how much "power" we should use (and how it's generated).....just a thought :twisted:

[TerryO]

Well Oldsalt you got me there with those pearls of wisdom ;)

...talk about taking a subject right off topic. :eek:

cheers,
Terry

[oldsalt]

Yeah .... sorry about the "rant" but a few years ago my wife and me did a "camping" trip in Tassie and were amazed at the forest of "No Camping" signs we struck - and one sunny day as we were harmlessly parked in the main street of Strahan (spending tourist dollars) we were told how "unfriendly" (eco wise) or vehicle was by a dreadlocked hippie who then proceeded to get into his very old Tasmanian rego'ed VW and drive off in a cloud of smoke - the smoke was that bad I almost missed seeing the "save the planet" stickers on the rear bumper !!!!
Ah well.. it takes all types to make a world,

cheers

[roamer]

Was the smoke coming out of the windows :cool::cool:
If so it could have been brother

[Ivan]

Agree 100% with Terry. Many years ago when I came to Australia the first time, I went snow driving in Victoria. Didn't know much about 4WD Driving but I had a Discovery (3.5V8i). Anyway I was having real trouble going up the hills, kept slipping off the track etc. When we got to the top one of the guys asked me what range I was in. I replied that I was in high range with the diff locked!!! They were quite surprised I got as far as I did. I assumed driving in the snow would be like driving in the sand (i.e. momentum and power). Once I put it in low range I had no further problems. I would never have known unless someone had told me (no internet in those days).

Ivan

[Presto]

There are a few put down comments in this thread about incompetent drivers etc as if anyone using TR is not a real 4 wheel driver.

I would ask those who make these comments how well they themselves drove off road when they first got into 4 wheel driving seriously off road?

Skill and knowledge is something learned from experience not something passed down magically from a parents jeans. We all started some where and I bet all of us have made our fair share of daft mistakes and have looked and sounded pretty stupid occassionally while gaining that experience.

Personally I'd like to meet the perfect person who knows everything and can do everything well and who has not blundered along the way.

cheers,
Terry

Well said Terry!

Comments like "TR is for knobs" really **** me off......

[jonesfam]

Well said TerryO, but
I am sure you have forgotten that all 15 year olds both know every thing & can do every thing.
It is only once you have turned about 20 & have to live a real life that you seem to loose the amazing abilities & knowledge you have as a teenager.:)
Jonesfam

[Tombie]

I think people miss the T.I.C comments some put here...

Perhaps a slightly thicker skin could be considered.

I think the thread overall is a good open discussion on TR and it's benefits in the modern LR range.

Does this make it superior?
Does it make it easier?
Does it replace driving ability?
Or the ability to 'read' terrain and drive appropriately?
Does it remove the requirement for correct tyre pressures?

Sorry, but the D3+ owners do tend to come across a little precious some times when their machines are challenged...

I'm sure you are all great people, so how about kicking back, having a scotch and let's talk about these great vehicles and their features.

Thankyou to the OP for his thread, it's been most appreciated.

[PAT303]

I had to relearn how to drive when I got the L322,thats the way it is.At least we have people posting thier experience so we aren't all re-inventing the wheel. Pat

[Graeme]

I've just had a pleasant experience where the Disco kept on going, having found myself in a matrix of deep, wet and slippery uphill ruts. Grass/gravel/snow had already been selected due to being slippery on the flat but I'm sure my previous D2a would have needed the tractor. The independent suspension, e-diff, height already at +30 for enough clearance and more open Yoko AT/S LT tyres (D2 had Pirelli ATR LT) all contributed I'm sure. I didn't hear or see any indication of TC operating although I was concentrating on not getting stuck so may have missed it. Anyway, some permagrin!