The Battery Posts: final warning

[rmp]

Of late there have been several threads about batteries which have dengerated into the sort of behaviour that is not tolerated on this forum.

A warning to all:

- do not bait
- do not reply to bait
- be civil

and no matter how wrong someone is that does not excuse an impolite reply or personal attack.

This is the final warning.

Infractions and immediate bans etc will follow with no more notice.

[drivesafe]

While this reply is a bit rich coming from me, one of the main protagonist in the arguments, but as this forum use to be a place where people could get HONEST info when trying to sort out problems, in this specific case electrical problems, RMP I wonder how does one get the honesty back into this subject?

[Jamo]

I thought this was going to be a warning about keeping battery terminals clean.:D

[TerryO]

Nope not dirty terminals ...just rmp adjusting a couple of lose nuts .... :bangin:



cheers,
Terry :angel:

[drivesafe]

Hi Jamo and if only it was that simple.

The problem is there are so many lies associated with automotive electrics, and I don’t mean by people and their posts on here.

The problem is the amount of dishonest advertising and this is what needs to be addressed because, in this instance, both Wilbur and RoverLander have unknowingly based their postings on misleading advertising and this has in turn lead to disputes.

Again, there needs to be a credible independent way of sorting wheat from the chaff.

[rmp]

Guys, it's very simple.

If you see incorrect information or an opinion you disagree with, correct it, but... W I T H O U T - B E I N G - R U D E. I honestly don't know how to explain it any better!!

It's not all that difficult. You just stick to the facts and do not comment on the other guy in any way at all, play the ball not the man.

Insulting people generally means you've lost control of your emotions or cannot mount a factual argument, so you resort to a personal attack. That devalues your views in the eyes of all others.

If you care about your reputation you'll keep your cool.

For the final time, there is no objection to correcting info or disagreeing. There is in how it is done.

Also, no more tolerance for bait posts.

This forum, like any other, will never be 100% error-free. It can't be while it is open to all and sundry, and that is both it's strength and weakness.

How about writing a FAQ entry and we just point people there.

[Wilbur]

The problem is the amount of dishonest advertising and this is what needs to be addressed because, in this instance, both Wilbur and RoverLander have unknowingly based their postings on misleading advertising and this has in turn lead to disputes.

Again, there needs to be a credible independent way of sorting wheat from the chaff.

Drivesafe, please don't make assumptions about other forum posters.

For the record, I have not based my postings on misleading advertising. I have based it on my first hand experience and theoretical knowledge. It seems likely that Roverlander is in much the same situation.

Agreed, there needs to be a credible independent way of sorting the wheat from the chaff. That is why when I posted my thread "Warning on Auxiliary Batteries" I requested that someone would have my post reviewed, and also suggested possible sources of reviewers.

I went to quite a lot of trouble writing that post. The argument that followed rendered the post useless. I would very much like to see that post independently reviewed and put into the FAQ if the reviewer approves it.

RMP, is there any way that I can make that happen?

[drivesafe]

For the record, I have not based my postings on misleading advertising. I have based it on my first hand experience and theoretical knowledge.

Tad of a problem here Wilbur. In one of your earliest postings on electrical matters, you specifically stated you got your info from one of Collyn River’s books. Ring a bell?

[rmp]

I would like to see this topic covered in the FAQ. The usual way would be to write up an entry and after a while, I'll add it.

However, in this case I see what'll happen - an entry will get written and then argued over. So, don't bother.

Drivesafe and Wilbur - if you two must argue, do so on private message not on public threads. This one is heading in a direction that will land you in grief.

[RoverLander]

It's a pity that the post I started and which I think contained a lot of useful information has degraded to this. I acknowledge my own contribution to degrading it and apologise for my last post and to Drivesafe.

I'd also like to see an answer to Wilbur's and my questions. There is a lot more I’d like to say but in the interest of moving on I’ll keep it to myself.

No more posts from me on this subject... I think amongst the various posts I’ve made my view on the alternate systems clear and hopefully balanced. I’ve learned a lot which has to be a good thing.

What is our next contentious subject? :)

Regards
Peter

[Wilbur]

Tad of a problem here Wilbur. In one of your earliest postings on electrical matters, you specifically stated you got your info from one of Collyn River’s books. Ring a bell?

No problem at all Drivesafe. This is what I actually wrote:-


IF you are interested, read this book (Motorhome Electrics). It is not my source of information and I have not read it myself, but it is highly respected, and written by Colin Rivers, a highly qualified automotive and electronic engineer.

This was on the thread "Alternator Capacity".

[drivesafe]

If you see incorrect information or an opinion you disagree with, correct it, but... W I T H O U T - B E I N G - R U D E.

Hang on there rmp, going on your specific guide lines, I saw incorrect information in Wilbur's post and I corrected.

I was not rude nor did I call him a liar, I just made reference to something he had already posted.

And for the records, the info I have posted relating to the way D3 electrics work and why they do so is based on info supplied to me in a number of confidential E-mails from LRA’s then boss of Technical Training.

This is the block who trained LR staff in Australia. I didn’t source my info from some two bit jurno's book or get sucked by grossly misleading advertising. I got my info direct from LRA.

[roamer]

What is our next contentious subject? :)

Regards
Peter





My 18" rims are better than your 19" rims, because they are :o:o :D



Cheers Anonymous :wasntme: :wasntme: :wasntme:

[drivesafe]

Wilbur, why on earth did you recommend people read a book you have not read, a book written by a journalist who, contrary to your claims, has NO AUTO ELECTRIC qualification or experience. Collyn Rivers is nothing more than a journalist.

This is exactly what I have been “RANTING” about, the misinformation being passed off as facts

[rmp]

Collyn Rivers is nothing more than a journalist.


Caravan and Motorhome Books - Collyn Rivers (http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/about_the_author.html)

how about people make their own minds up.

Drivesafe - communicate with Wilbur on this by PM. Wilbur, same for you.

No more.

[drivesafe]

Hi rmp, and all that trumpet blowing doesn’t alter the fact that Collyn hasn’t got the foggiest idea about the subject at hand and surprise surprise, I have locked horns with him on many occasions.

One of his favourite lines is that ”Cranking batteries will not be charged above 70% SoC by an alternator” and then he always follows this with the line “As backed by battery manufacturers”.

Sound familiar, and the same thing happens, no matter how many times Collyn is asked to name just one of these battery manufacturers that supposedly back his claim, no response.

He was also caught out on another forum about 12 to 18 months back when a newbie to caravans, posted up a question about how to run his 3 way fridge off his house batteries while camping.

For those not acquainted with this, running a 3 way fridge off house batteries is an absolute NO-NO but Collyn didn’t know this and went into explicit details on how to wire up the guys van and how long he could expect to run his fridge off fully charged house batteries and so on.

This is from someone who is only to happy to tell you how much of an expert he is, yet he went very quiet when a number of caravan owner posted up that Collyn had it wrong.

Running a 3 way fridge off house batteries for more than a short time, like while you fuel up and the likes, will destroy the batteries in no time flat.

Not only did the self proclaimed expert have no idea of the damage that would have been done to this guys batteries, had the guy not been given the correct advice, but Collyn actually tows a caravan.

And this is not the first time he has given completely erroneous advice and been corrected.

BTW, he use to post his title in his Signature as being an Automotive Research Documentation Engineer. He don’t post that anymore, not since it was pointed out that in plain english, it mean he was nothing more than a secretary.

As I have posted, what is needed is some HONEST INDEPENDENT scrutiny

[Outlaw]

Okay time to give this all a rest.

I suggest anyone who is unsure of the correct direction to PM those with the knowledge. With all the chatter on these, hopefully most have enough up top to be able to read between the posts and nut out what they need. And if in any doubt. Ask more questions of those doing the install or LRA directly.

[JohnF]

It's a pity that the post I started and which I think contained a lot of useful information has degraded to this. I acknowledge my own contribution to degrading it and apologise for my last post and to Drivesafe.

I'd also like to see an answer to Wilbur's and my questions. There is a lot more I’d like to say but in the interest of moving on I’ll keep it to myself.

No more posts from me on this subject... I think amongst the various posts I’ve made my view on the alternate systems clear and hopefully balanced. I’ve learned a lot which has to be a good thing.

What is our next contentious subject? :)

Regards
Peter

well I have been waiting a while for someone to start a thread on Evolution :)

[Blknight.aus]

if its needed I can run an off vehicle simulation I now have a small diesel engine thats sole purpose in life is to run an alternator and a compressor.. I also have 2 identical capacity batteries that are currently running in parallel.

Im happy to run a real world worse case scenario test with my existing direct parralell hookup as the control providing both parties are happy to provide one of their units to replace the parralleling wire.

the basic test would be done with both batteries at 3v starting point checked with a meter and a hygrometer the engine started then tested every 15 minutes until the second battery reaches an agreed charged voltage/capacity.

more to follow if people are interested and the respected parties want to come play.

[drivesafe]

more to follow if people are interested and the respected parties want to come play.

Go for it Dave!

[roamer]

if its needed I can run an off vehicle simulation I now have a small diesel engine thats sole purpose in life is to run an alternator and a compressor.. I also have 2 identical capacity batteries that are currently running in parallel.

Im happy to run a real world worse case scenario test with my existing direct parralell hookup as the control providing both parties are happy to provide one of their units to replace the parralleling wire.

the basic test would be done with both batteries at 3v starting point checked with a meter and a hygrometer the engine started then tested every 15 minutes until the second battery reaches an agreed charged voltage/capacity.

more to follow if people are interested and the respected parties want to come play.





But is it a LR D3\D4 charging system,because it's the varying voltage that is somewhat at question.


Cheers Ken

[eddomak]

No offense to all, and I have stayed out of these threads because I cannot contribute in anyway, but how many threads are there now on basically the same topic? Couldn't you keep it all in the original thread and let me and others just ignore one thread rather than many?

[Blknight.aus]

But is it a LR D3\D4 charging system,because it's the varying voltage that is somewhat at question.


Cheers Ken

The alternator is the bit that does the voltage varying, I can get my hands on a d4 alternator and rig that up without excessive hassle, if it doesnt perform as expected during the control then I'll have to work something else out. I have my feelings about how the test will go anyway but dont want to post them up incase it goes ahead and people percive that I have a bias (I Do, nothing beats my DBS when it comes to getting amps back to batteries) that will skew the testing procedure.

[drivesafe]

Hi Dave, personally I wouldn’t worry about getting to finicky with how the voltages may or may not vary.

Why not just set up to do a worst case scenario and then any body wishing to use the test results as a reference point, can do so knowing they are the worst likely outcome.

I’ve already been doing some testing but they are unlikely to be viewed as unbiased and are more for the benefit of my customers, but it will still be interesting to compere the end results.

[Blknight.aus]

the question was asked and in honesty it was a point that I hadnt considered.

given that the majority of the disputing is about the multivolt alternators charging through various means then thats what should (if feasable, Im not going and ripping a complete brain and harness out of a d3/4 just to run the alternator properly) be tested.

If not its going to be a case of some random 100A alternator from my pile chucking amps at batteries.

[drivesafe]

Hi dave and here is some info based on observations I made of the operation of the D3 alternator.

After the first start of the day, the alternator voltage will by up around 14.4v to 14.9v ( the highest voltage I recorded and this was common ) for 30 minutes. This is a form of bulk charging.

The voltage then drops back to ( on average ) 13.6v and remain there. The lowest voltage I ever recorded was 13.2v and this was rare.

If the motor is stopped and then started again, even with a time gaps of 4 hours or more, between stopping the motor and then starting again, the alternator will again run at a bulk charge voltage but only for 10 minutes, then the voltage again drops.

Note, the transition from the initial bulk charge voltage to the operating voltage is almost instantaneous, taking no more than a second or two to change voltage levels.

[Blknight.aus]

yep, IVe noticed it but not because of any specific testing just one of those "huh thats odd" type observations.

I suspect that the change down point is as much draw related as it is computer controlled to conserve energy so if that theory is correct if you dump a decent load on once the output of the alternator goes past the trigger point it should push the volts back up to help deal with the load.

one of the tests I've always wanted to do on the electrical system of a D4 is to get it up and running till the voltage drops to its low charge voltage then whack a honking great load onto it without turning the engine off and measure the amps and volts on the back of the alternator.

[drivesafe]

Hi Dave, I’ve done a few tests on 3Lt D4s and they have a totally different operating protocol.

The main difference is the way the voltage rises when ever the load is removed from the motor.

I have not had a chance to do what you’re talking about, checking the current load.

Will have to do that one day when I can get a local D4 owner with some time to spare to oblige.

As for the D3 ( + the 2.7Lt D4 ), no matter what the load is, it has no effect on the voltage change.

[Blknight.aus]

I first found out about the variable voltage thing when one came in with an intermitant alarm on the inverter that had been fitted in the rear, turned out to be a dodgy earth connection that was dropping the voltage enough that when the alternator went to low charge mode the inverter was beeping off its low voltage protection.

simple fix, made the earth something decent and then instructed the owner to not leave the inverter on if he wasnt using it.

[drivesafe]

Dave was the earth originally connected to the cranking battery’s neg terminal?

This is going to be a problem in the future with these vehicles. The common connection for a properly set up dual battery system is normally to connect the negative cable to the cranking battery’s neg terminal.

Unfortunately, and as has been shown here, people are already trying to use the cranking battery terminal as the neg return.

This is something I have never done in either a D3 or D4 as both vehicles have earth studs, as does the RRS and RR Vogue, so maybe the manufacturer is trying to tell us something.

Having this info hidden away in the Owners Manual is not enough. There needs to be some form of a clear LARGE warning notice placed near the cranking battery’s neg terminal to protect against both the owner doing the wrong thing and more importantly when trades people or service people are working on them.

[Blknight.aus]

nope, tech screw into the floor. no star washers or anything, I just cheated wire brushed the area and put in some star washers, lazy I know but it worked.

[roamer]

Hi Guys,
What Tim said about 3lt multi charging is spot on, I have been checking my (via on board screen).
However I disconnected my aux battery, (to confirm faulty crank battery) and stupidly forgot to turn fridge off, (aux down to 11.7v). :(

Dealer replaced crank battery (what a great guy),but with the flat aux reconnected the votage went to 14.7v and stayed there constantly, no variation with motor load,until the battery was recharge (about 4hrs). :confused:

Now every thing back to normal. :cool:
Optima\ Traxide.

Not sure if I,ve helped or hindered. :angel:

Cheers Ken

[Blknight.aus]

nope no hinderance there, the info conforms what I suspected, the charging voltage is draw controlled.

if you up the draw from the alternator above the nominal expected load the increased draw will make it think that the battery is low (its the only serious variable in the electric load chart) so the system bumps the voltage up to charge the battery effectively.

[drivesafe]

Thanks roamer, thats the sort of feedback I’ve got from a few D4 customers.

As long as the neg return is not connected to the cranking battery’s neg terminal, there is no problem recharging auxiliary/house batteries.

With your Optima at that low a voltage when you started, you would have been pulling as much as 60 amps initially.

I’ve measured as high as 68 amps and this is with the Optima with an SoC of 11.5v, mounted in the rear of the wife's D4.

I read where one guy in the UK report that when he measure the current going into his very low Optima, he got a current draw of 97 amps and that’s in a D3.

[Redback]

Hi rmp, and all that trumpet blowing doesn’t alter the fact that Collyn hasn’t got the foggiest idea about the subject at hand and surprise surprise, I have locked horns with him on many occasions.

One of his favourite lines is that ”Cranking batteries will not be charged above 70% SoC by an alternator” and then he always follows this with the line “As backed by battery manufacturers”.

Sound familiar, and the same thing happens, no matter how many times Collyn is asked to name just one of these battery manufacturers that supposedly back his claim, no response.

He was also caught out on another forum about 12 to 18 months back when a newbie to caravans, posted up a question about how to run his 3 way fridge off his house batteries while camping.

For those not acquainted with this, running a 3 way fridge off house batteries is an absolute NO-NO but Collyn didn’t know this and went into explicit details on how to wire up the guys van and how long he could expect to run his fridge off fully charged house batteries and so on.

This is from someone who is only to happy to tell you how much of an expert he is, yet he went very quiet when a number of caravan owner posted up that Collyn had it wrong.

Running a 3 way fridge off house batteries for more than a short time, like while you fuel up and the likes, will destroy the batteries in no time flat.

Not only did the self proclaimed expert have no idea of the damage that would have been done to this guys batteries, had the guy not been given the correct advice, but Collyn actually tows a caravan.

And this is not the first time he has given completely erroneous advice and been corrected.

BTW, he use to post his title in his Signature as being an Automotive Research Documentation Engineer. He don’t post that anymore, not since it was pointed out that in plain english, it mean he was nothing more than a secretary.

As I have posted, what is needed is some HONEST INDEPENDENT scrutiny

I was one of the dopes that read this from Collyn, firstly on ExplorOz, then again on the Campertrailer.org Yahoo site:twisted:

We only left it on for 4hrs in Innaminka while we went to the pub for tea, of coarse when we got back the battery in the car was dead as a door nail, to say I was not impressed was an understatement:mad:

I guess his info wasn't all bad, I did learn not to do it again and he was a bloody knob:MileStone:

I am going to do my own test, I am having a few battery/fridge lasting problems at the moment, so I am going to see what is causing the it, whether it's the battery or batteries, the fridge or the SC40.

Also my EMS1 is reading the voltage wrong from the batteries, according to the EMS1 when I turn the ignition on and leave it for about 1min (without starting the car) the voltage reading is 11.5/6, which sets off the low voltage alarm in the EMS, I then get my volt meter and test the voltage only to find it's actually 12.4 to 12.7 depending on how long the car has been sitting around and that's both batteries(normally the main starter is the lower of the two if sitting overnight or longer.

Any advice would be good if someone has any for this test I'm about to do.

Baz.

[unseenone]

I think the general outcome of this thread, was that the original thread deteriorated into a, let's say less than desirable exchange of ideas. This thread was an attempt to stop it "or else". The result was furthering of discontent, so everyone finally abandoned it.

Seeing as you might have missed some of the previous stuff, consider yourself informed at this stage.

The resulting conclusion is start a new topic, rather than continue to rub salt into the wounds. That said, your point is well taken, I don't have a dog in this race, and decided not to even PM my suggestions for fear of furthering the situation.

[Redback]

I think the general outcome of this thread, was that the original thread deteriorated into a, let's say less than desirable exchange of ideas. This thread was an attempt to stop it "or else". The result was furthering of discontent, so everyone finally abandoned it.

Seeing as you might have missed some of the previous stuff, consider yourself informed at this stage.

The resulting conclusion is start a new topic, rather than continue to rub salt into the wounds. That said, your point is well taken, I don't have a dog in this race, and decided not to even PM my suggestions for fear of furthering the situation.

Will do:D

Baz.

[incisor]

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Thank you for your time.

[Collyn]

I refer specifically to the following post from Tim Sanderson (Drivesave).


My responses are inset in red (and references in blue)


"Hi rmp, and all that trumpet blowing doesn’t alter the fact that Collyn hasn’t got the foggiest idea about the subject at hand and surprise surprise, I have locked horns with him on many occasions.

One of his favourite lines is that ”Cranking batteries will not be charged above 70% SoC by an alternator” and then he always follows this with the line “As backed by battery manufacturers”.

Sound familiar, and the same thing happens, no matter how many times Collyn is asked to name just one of these battery manufacturers that supposedly back his claim, no response.

He was also caught out on another forum about 12 to 18 months back when a newbie to caravans, posted up a question about how to run his 3 way fridge off his house batteries while camping.

Please provide the reference for the above claim re 'another forum'.

For those not acquainted with this, running a 3 way fridge off house batteries is an absolute NO-NO but Collyn didn’t know this and went into explicit details on how to wire up the guys van and how long he could expect to run his fridge off fully charged house batteries and so on.

This is from someone who is only to happy to tell you how much of an expert he is, yet he went very quiet when a number of caravan owner posted up that Collyn had it wrong.

Running a 3 way fridge off house batteries for more than a short time, like while you fuel up and the likes, will destroy the batteries in no time flat.


The Camper Trailer Book has since about 2006 stated: (re three-way fridges) 'These fridges are intended to be run from the alternator whilst driving, and the auxiliary battery only for short periods - such as lunch stops. They are intended to run on gas or 230 volts ac during all other times.'

Solar That Really Works states 'Three-way fridges run from the vehicle's 12 volt system whilst driving, 230 volts when available, and gas at all other times. They draw far too much energy (10-25 amps) to run from solar'.

Caravan & Motorhome Electrics states: 'Often known as 'three-way' the RV variant usually runs on 12 volts whilst driving and for short roadside stops, and on mains electricity or gas at all other times.

Several articles on my own website confirm the above - some have been there since 2004.

Not only did the self proclaimed expert have no idea of the damage that would have been done to this guys batteries, had the guy not been given the correct advice, but Collyn actually tows a caravan.

I do not own a caravan.

And this is not the first time he has given completely erroneous advice and been corrected.

BTW, he use to post his title in his Signature as being an Automotive Research Documentation Engineer. He don’t post that anymore, not since it was pointed out that in plain english, it mean he was nothing more than a secretary.

This is one of a series of totally fabricated claims made by Mr Sanderson since 2004. At no time have I ever used a signature such as Automotive Research Documentation Engineer.
The claim is legally defamatory and damages my integrity.

I was a Test Engineer with Vauxhall/Bedford at the Chaul End Research Centre and was responsible for the design and construction of a great deal of the testing and measuring equipment used. Textual and photographic evidence for this is at: http://vauxpedianet.uk2sitebuilder.com/vauxhall---chaul-endh-engineering-research-test-centre (http://vauxpedianet.uk2sitebuilder.com/vauxhall---chaul-end-engineering-research-test-centre)

Re my background in electronics, it includes being a ground radar engineer in the RAF, design of power system for guided missiles, Application Engineering Manager Natronics Pty Ltd, and then founder and managing editor of Electronics Today International - that I managed to build into the world's largest (with editions in Australia, UK, Holland, Germany, Canada, Indonesia and India. It was awarded the title of the World's best such. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronics_Today_International



As I have posted, what is needed is some HONEST INDEPENDENT scrutiny.

I suggest it is indeed so.

Having now shown independent evidence of my background I request that you retract your legally defamatory statements (relating to me on this forum).
An apology would not be out of order.

(I thank Dave for the opportunity to respond).

Collyn Rivers

[drivesafe]

Hi Collyn and I have no idea what you are trying to prove, raising issues with a 6 year old post and I have no intentions of playing your games.


But be warned, from the first time you threatened to take litigation action against me all those years ago, for what I might add was doing nothing more than posting up the truth, but from that post to this one, I have made a copy of every interaction we have ever had, and that includes copies of threads that no longer exist.


And please note Collyn, these are not links to the those posts, where you may have a new Signature, I have copies of the original posts, showing the signature you were using at the time.


So I do not need to make any statements, I can just post up copies of your own replies to show who is actually telling the truth.


Have a nice day Collyn.