Lack of apprentices..Why.

[Ean Austral]

I have always wondered about the reason that there seems to be a lack of tradesman and apprentices coming thru in Australia, and recently put this question to someone who does the engine work on our boat.

This guy is one of the best tradesman i've seen, done his time with detroit deisel and traveled to many places both remote and oversea's whilst working for them, and they still get him back to trouble shoot if they have a problem engine... he's mid 40's and works for himself now.

His reply was.. most people wont pay the hourly rate for 1 person let alone him and an apprentice..
He used to rebuild about 20-30 engines a year, from small truck engines to larger deisels in boats/ road trains etc, now people just buy low milage imported engines.so now rebuilds about 5 a year if lucky.
But what surprised me most was he said that most work places wont allow him to bring his own offsider, he has to use 1 supplied by them..

This linked to the red-tape and other things that he said about employing people and he decided to stay solo..

I am sure the same story is repeated everywhere, but what a shame that someone with such skill and knowledge of their trade isn't encouraged to pass it on.

I also would say that doing an apprenticeship is to low for some of the current generation also.

Cheers Ean

[Pedro_The_Swift]

and,, even if he did train say 4 apprentices every 20 years,, maybe two but probably only one of them will be as good as him,,

[Ean Austral]

and,, even if he did train say 4 apprentices every 20 years,, maybe two but probably only one of them will be as good as him,,

Yep, but 1 as good and 3 half as good are better than no-one learning at all IMHO..


Cheers Ean

[Blknight.aus]

because no-one wants to do the little basic crappy jobs that instill good work practices so you wind up with fully qualified guys doing the simple dirty bits and then having to redo the stuff that the appies wanted to do and got wrong.

no-one wants to pay for that.

[Tank]

I have always wondered about the reason that there seems to be a lack of tradesman and apprentices coming thru in Australia, and recently put this question to someone who does the engine work on our boat.

This guy is one of the best tradesman i've seen, done his time with detroit deisel and traveled to many places both remote and oversea's whilst working for them, and they still get him back to trouble shoot if they have a problem engine... he's mid 40's and works for himself now.

His reply was.. most people wont pay the hourly rate for 1 person let alone him and an apprentice..
He used to rebuild about 20-30 engines a year, from small truck engines to larger deisels in boats/ road trains etc, now people just buy low milage imported engines.so now rebuilds about 5 a year if lucky.
But what surprised me most was he said that most work places wont allow him to bring his own offsider, he has to use 1 supplied by them..

This linked to the red-tape and other things that he said about employing people and he decided to stay solo..

I am sure the same story is repeated everywhere, but what a shame that someone with such skill and knowledge of their trade isn't encouraged to pass it on.

I also would say that doing an apprenticeship is to low for some of the current generation also.

Cheers Ean
Most apprenticeships are done through Employment Agencies, they pay the wages, insurance, workers comp. and bill the "employer". The apprentice is on a 3 months trial, the employer gets a subsidy from the government and other gratuities for the first 3 months. The employer sacks the apprentice a week or so before the 3 months are up and the Employment Agency supplies another apprentice, it took my son 3 years to complete second year mechanic, not once in all that time did he get his $800 tool allowance (eligible after 3 months), most young blokes give up after a few sackings, the system flourished under the Fed. Libs, don't know if this practice still happens, Regards Frank.

[alexi]

I'm in the process of looking for an electrical apprenticeship here in Mt Isa, i can't believe how hard it is, everywhere seems to only be taking on uni grads and foreiners. SO much for the governments complaints about lack of skilled workers, i bloody want to be one and i can't.
Well thats my whine for the day.

[Ean Austral]

I'm in the process of looking for an electrical apprenticeship here in Mt Isa, i can't believe how hard it is, everywhere seems to only be taking on uni grads and foreiners. SO much for the governments complaints about lack of skilled workers, i bloody want to be one and i can't.
Well thats my whine for the day.

Keep trying your persistance will pay off..

The young fella i've got training as a marine engineer lost his electrical apprenticeship cause the company went under.He'll be bloody good if he sticks at it..

Goodluck,

Cheers Ean

[Lotz-A-Landies]

One of my mates, a mechanic and Landy Defender owner took on an apprentice. From the outset the apprentice knew it all, only wanted to work on his own rice burner and wasn't interested in the Land Rovers brought in which are a major part of the business.

My friend ended up having to stay back and go through all the apprentice's work and frequently re-do the apprentice's work lest he end up with a customer complaint. In the end he had to sack him and go back to a single mechanic shop because it wasn't worth it in either time or money.

It may have only been this one kid, but he has tainted it for everyone.

What is worse, all the major industries that used to have apprentice schools have closed up, at least when there is a employer based school, they could weed out the no-hopers from the good ones.

[D110V8D]

My "trade" isn't even recognized in Australia, which makes it very hard for me to put on an " äpprentice" because we get absolutely no support from the govt. I don't have the time to train someone, nor can I really justify footing the whole bill, just to have them walk away from it half way through.

In some ways it's a good thing because we basically have very, very little competition due to the fact that there hasn't been any formally trained scientific glassblowers in many years. The age demographic over here in Australia is mainly 50yrs - 60yrs old guys who are either on the edge of retirement or semi retired already.

I'm told I'm the youngest in the country at 36 years old.

So in the long run it's likely a lot of the work will go off shore (a lot of it already has) which is a shame for the future of a dying art in this country. All too common these days if you ask me.

The govt needs to broaden it's mind so to speak and back all skills, even if they are a small area of industry and support this country better into the future.

[Blknight.aus]

now glass blowing is something I've always wanted to have a crack at.

[2stroke]

I agree the apprenticeship companies are just cheap labour merchants, my eldest son went through one for his cabinetmaker apprenticeship and training certainly wasn't a priority. Back when I entered my electrical apprenticeship (1983) the govt departments used to train heaps of kids, Some time during the mid to late eighties accountants began to take over the world from the engineers who had run it so successfully up to that point, that's when economic rationality cut it all to the bone. These days the world seems to be run by lawyers but that's another rant.

[stig0000]

iv just come off been a app, and the reason i wouldn't do it again,, is the pay, its ****,,, no other word for it, and it still is, i wish i when to the mines and got 2-3 times what i get, and probly work half as much,

my GF works at woolies and gets $2ish less them me and what specialist training has she had!!

[incisor]

I don't have the time to train someone, nor can I really justify footing the whole bill, just to have them walk away from it half way through.

in my day it was very common that as soon as you finished your apprenticeship you were sacked and couldn't come back to that firm for a few years so you got other experiences.

also in those days a works manager made triple, at most, what a tradesman made, these days they demand 10 times a tradesman's wage or more and it goes on up the chain of command.

that soon eats up a lot of apprentice pay packets...

too much me me me and not enough common good, imho

[Tombie]

Go to Europe...

Tradies don't make the rates they get here by a long shot...

No $90/hr plumbers there....

And seriously young fellas... Get over it. You need to work and earn pay. Not start at the top.

[drifter]

Go to Europe...

Tradies don't make the rates they get here by a long shot...

No $90/hr plumbers there....

And seriously young fellas... Get over it. You need to work and earn pay. Not start at the top.


yup, yup, yup

exactly what I told my stepson after constantly hearing:

week 1: this is the best job I have ever had
week 2: the job's not bad but the pay is lousy
week 3: the boss is an idiot - I'm leaving - he doesn't know how to do {insert workshop task here} properly, I could run the place better

He went through 12 different workshops in one year! He has the honest belief that (without any formal training) he can do all the jobs and run a mechanical workshop.

I let him do the CV joints on his mothers car - and took it to a mechanic the next week to get it done properly.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

now glass blowing is something I've always wanted to have a crack at.:Rolling: Pun!

[Vern]

I have a young lady doing work experience with me at the moment, i'm thinking of offering her an apprenticship, she's actually keen and interested in the work, and very helpful.
Oh and most important, she bakes cakes for Matt and I for smoko:D

[Bigbjorn]

Place I once worked at, in the earthmoving, mining and construction business, started two Diesel HEE fitter apprentices every year for many years as did the other branches around the country. Head office ordered "no more apprentices, waste of money and time". We in Qld. were horrified. We had a problem attracting and keeping tradesmen because of the high incomes in the coal fields and felt we really needed to keep training. "Make a case" said HO.

So we managed to track down 22 former apprentices who had completed their indentures at the company. Three were TAFE teachers, one was a self-employed mobile fitter, two farmers, an insurance agent, a shop keeper, a clutch of public service clerks, a general fitter at a public hospital, two in gaol, another couple actually working as HEE fitters but with a government department, one was our workshop foreman and another was the service manager. The three TAFE teachers had also been our workshop foreman and service manager in turn and left to become teachers for much more money. So out of 22, two were still working at the company but not on the tools. another 4 were working as HEE fitters in the private sector. We didn't bother taking these results to head office. So no more apprentices at that shop.

[loanrangie]

because no-one wants to do the little basic crappy jobs that instill good work practices so you wind up with fully qualified guys doing the simple dirty bits and then having to redo the stuff that the appies wanted to do and got wrong.

no-one wants to pay for that.

That and kids want to walk into 1K a week job without having to learn how to work for it, there is little to no work ethic with the current generation - they want it all and they want it yesterday.

[UncleHo]

Yeah! when I started work (as a spares clerk) I was getting 8 Pound 7 & 6 pence gross[$16.75], my school mate an apprentice downstairs (same Co.) got 4 Pound 2 & 6 pence [$8.25] :( and it was a 5 years apprenticeship from memory (motor mechanic)

[85 county]

started my time at 20% of a tradesmans wage. all my matesmade twice to 3 times as much.

whos laughing now.

[clubagreenie]

Another large issue is, an I know first hand is the lack of recogniotion for "mature aged" apprentices. I had a very well paid job, with great potential and got shot down medically unfit. So back to the scrap heap, have to tell you starting again at less than $8hr when you're used to $3K+ per week. And doing 3 times the hours, and qualified pay is only a few $$$ more. Sorry, I'm now a professional uni student earning twice that.

[digger]

My "trade" isn't even recognized in Australia, which makes it very hard for me to put on an " äpprentice" because we get absolutely no support from the govt. I don't have the time to train someone, nor can I really justify footing the whole bill, just to have them walk away from it half way through.

In some ways it's a good thing because we basically have very, very little competition due to the fact that there hasn't been any formally trained scientific glassblowers in many years. The age demographic over here in Australia is mainly 50yrs - 60yrs old guys who are either on the edge of retirement or semi retired already.

I'm told I'm the youngest in the country at 36 years old.

So in the long run it's likely a lot of the work will go off shore (a lot of it already has) which is a shame for the future of a dying art in this country. All too common these days if you ask me.

The govt needs to broaden it's mind so to speak and back all skills, even if they are a small area of industry and support this country better into the future.

You need to interest more people in the art.... maybe the list of applicants may be bigger if you make glass blowing the minor subject and herbology their major in college!!!


just a thought!

[Nero]

Talk to most of the current tradies, a lot of them go their start railways state electricity Telecom, state water etc etc. Since them most of these services have been privatised and streamlined a lot of tradies didn't get trained and now the private companies want skilled immigration to make up for their short sightedness.

[Bigbjorn]

Yeah! when I started work (as a spares clerk) I was getting 8 Pound 7 & 6 pence gross[$16.75], my school mate an apprentice downstairs (same Co.) got 4 Pound 2 & 6 pence [$8.25] :( and it was a 5 years apprenticeship from memory (motor mechanic)

A school mate and still a close friend became a boilermaker apprentice at ED's shipyard in 1955. During three months probation before entering indentures he was paid as a junior labourer. Upon becoming an apprentice his pay dropped by almost half to $5.50 per week.

[Homestar]

started my time at 20% of a tradesmans wage. all my matesmade twice to 3 times as much.

whos laughing now.

:) yep, ditto.

[UncleHo]

Yup! and that wouldn't even get you a Macca's now :(

[alittlebitconcerned]

Unless you live at home I don't know how anyone ever gets a apprentice when you take living costs into consideration

[Jeff]

Yeah! when I started work (as a spares clerk) I was getting 8 Pound 7 & 6 pence gross[$16.75], my school mate an apprentice downstairs (same Co.) got 4 Pound 2 & 6 pence [$8.25] :( and it was a 5 years apprenticeship from memory (motor mechanic)

That hardly compares to today's dollars. Petrol was not $1.50 per litre, rents were not massive, and beer was not $5.50 a schooner, you didn't need to pay for a licence to fish or shoot.

Jeff

:rocket:

[rovercare]

Talk to most of the current tradies, a lot of them go their start railways state electricity Telecom, state water etc etc. Since them most of these services have been privatised and streamlined a lot of tradies didn't get trained and now the private companies want skilled immigration to make up for their short sightedness.

That's it in a nutshell, even where I used to work, they wanted to replace the 2 apprentices with tradesmen as they are more viable an asset, to which we all blatantly refused and all banded together to walk if that's what they wanted, we're talking an electrical contract that had 12 people, 2 being the apprentices

[rovercare]

I have a young lady doing work experience with me at the moment, i'm thinking of offering her an apprenticship, she's actually keen and interested in the work, and very helpful.
Oh and most important, she bakes cakes for Matt and I for smoko:D

One of us might have too, helps that she is 23 and has had helpful family teaching her stuff in her life

Scones and cakes are a winner but!:D

[stig0000]

maby i was abit open with the trades,, but in my trade, a base wage of 19.phr is nothing this days,,, get alot more in other trades, and considering i work for 130$ phr labour rate??? some ones making alot of money and its deffs not me;)

[85 county]

In SA, skill and others are paying about 25-28 per hour Plus 25% casual

If you are any good ( over 40 and have a brain) you can get rates up to just under 40.
But if you are any good, the clients will slap a contract in front of you dam quick. Some will just do the math’s and say 25, but if they know what the game is like high 30s is the go.

This is Adelaide, ( home at night) normal 38 hrs ++ light factory stuff so you need a wide range off skills and a bit of admin.

[rovercare]

maby i was abit open with the trades,, but in my trade, a base wage of 19.phr is nothing this days,,, get alot more in other trades, and considering i work for 130$ phr labour rate??? some ones making alot of money and its deffs not me;)

I was offered two mechanical apprenticeships when I was 16, one with a group training mob I did my pre app with and another from a local ford dealer, as they couldn't belive I could get the car I was building running, although that was more for a tech role, that is exactly why I refused

More money being an Elekrisian:D

[Sprint]

who so few apprentices?

1: multi skilling
2: crap pay with so many jobs offering better money for less skills
3: the "know everything" generation makes potential employers unwilling to make the positions available
4: a lot of customers refuse to pay for an apprentice, so it becomes a potential financial drain on an employer

[V8Ian]

A mate of mine runs a one man paint and panel shop. Over the years he has gone through dozens of would be apprentices. They all followed the same pattern, starting off keen and obliging but totally lost interest by the third month. To a man, my mate could tell when they were about to pull the pin by the amount of rectification work he had to perform. By the time they had been with him for three to four months, they expected him to be the labourer for them, all they wanted to do was spray top coat. For the last two years he has reverted to working alone, wondering why he was paying somebody to do the work he had to redo. He now puts out the same amount of work, in less hours, cheaper. This situation is a 180° about face for a bloke who had a strong belief that every workshop should contribute to the training of future tradesmen.
When I did my apprenticeship, we were contracted for three and three quarter years after the three month probation. It wasn't a case of walking away if you didn't like it, it was difficult for either side to sever the relationship without good cause.

[Mikes defender]

Its now 9 yrs since i started as an apprentice as a Aircraft Mechanical Engineers. Around the lunch room table i was talking to the other blokes from my year. Out of the 7 that started 4 finished all still working for the same company although at different ports. Now the company has changed its the way it does business. All apprentices must have completed a pre- apprenticeship course first. Saves time money and shows a bit of commitment.

Any apprentice looking for work i should do a pre apprenticeship course first. Also we found people wanting to c/o work experience was fantastic for everyone. both sides new what they were in for. Not having to rely on referees. Work with any one for a week and you will know if there worth keeping on.

Around the lunch table we started to talk about how **** the 1st and 2nd year wages were and how we could afford steak on 3rd yr wage instead of mince! When a Malaysian trained college was amazed. He said that his parent mortgaged there house to pay for his 4 yrs of training! We do live in the lucky county!

[Sprint]

actually, to include the reason i didnt take the apprenticeship that i was offered when i was younger, it was because the place i was living was too damn cold and it was starting to affect me......

do i regret saying no? well lets see..... currently I clear $1350 a fortnight..... anyone know what the average marine engineer earns?

[Bigbjorn]

Talk to most of the current tradies, a lot of them go their start railways state electricity Telecom, state water etc etc. Since them most of these services have been privatised and streamlined a lot of tradies didn't get trained and now the private companies want skilled immigration to make up for their short sightedness.

A major corporation that did much work for railways had a Positions Vacant notice board at the gates of its Northgate plant. The bottom line read "Railways trained tradesmen need not apply"

I asked one of the management why. He said that railways apprentice training was very good but the rot set in after becoming tradesmen if they stayed at the railways. They had found that the railway workshops compartmentalised trade jobs. Boilermakers, say, worked as welders, or burners, or markers out, or plate rollers, or drillers, etc. and rarely practiced the broad range of skills they were trained in as apprentices. Other problems with ex-railways workers was lack of productivity. Simply put, railways work was a good bludge and ex-rail workers had never had to do a proper days work as demanded in the private sector. Further, they were immersed in demarcation, very militant, and cause of much industrial strife.

[Bigbjorn]

That hardly compares to today's dollars. Petrol was not $1.50 per litre, rents were not massive, and beer was not $5.50 a schooner, you didn't need to pay for a licence to fish or shoot.

Jeff

:rocket:

Today's apprentices are rich compared to the 1950's-60's. My mate who grossed $5.50 paid $2.00 board to his mother, fares to work were $1.25, twenty cents to the social club for smokos, and a nominal amount of income tax. He says he ended up with about $1.50 left over for himself. Petrol was 40cents a gallon, 8.8 cents a litre. You don't buy much petrol or beer with $1.50, let alone clothing, social life, tools, etc. A tradesman grossed around $32 then. First and second year apprentices were pretty much dependent on their family for support. Country boys who had to board in Brisbane were paying around $8 to $9 for full board in a boarding house.

I still have a second year pay slip, God only knows why or how it was kept. Gross was 15/13/2 or $33.32 for a fortnight. There was a good bit of overtime and $2.50 "bonus". I don't recall what the bonus was for.

[UncleHo]

G'day Brian Hjelm :)

Yup! that sounds about right, I was about 9 or 10 when dad's pay went up to 22 pounds 10 shillings $45 per week as a married man with 2 children,as a qualified "Chair and Cabnet Maker" for the Dept of Public Works in Brisbane, who built and furnished all public buildings and offices in Qld,so it would have been around 1954-5, he retired from there in 1981 as their senior "Quantity Estimator" complete with departmental vehicle :) he passed away last December at 92.


cheers

[4x4_bugsy]

I used to work for a retail kitchen manufaturer as Production manager a few years ago and I had 4 1st years, a 2nd and a 3rd year working in my factory, with no tradesmen but myself...A the other tradesmen were onsite all the time.
When a guy is making $6.50 an hour as an apprentice, its hard to get motivated if their mate is pulling $12 or so an hour at macdonalds!
I used to dock their pay an hour if they showed up late to work (quite often) but they did not care saying 'its only $6.50, who cares?'.
Young people today expect to live the same lifestyle as their parents straight out of school, going into debt to purchase cars, phones, computers and clothes, while their parents generation was more likely to save and pay cash for these items.
The statistics of young people going bankrupt are staggering, with some pulling the pin for paltry amounts as $5000 so they can avoid a hefty phone bill.
I think part of the solution to this and many others facing our younger generation is to educate them on how to manage money, how to save money and to STAY OUT OF DEBT!
Just think of this, how often do we buy things we dont need, with money we dont have, to impress people we dont know or even like?

[Utemad]

Why do people complain about low paid apprentice jobs? If you think of it as training (which it is) and compare it to what you get paid to go to uni or TAFE then it is pretty bloody good pay!
Maybe apprentices should pay their employer many thousands of dollars per year and then work nights and weekends at a paid job in order to survive and we wouldn't have a tradesman shortage due to businesses having to cover the costs of people walking out on them.

[Bigbjorn]

G'day Brian Hjelm :)

Yup! that sounds about right, I was about 9 or 10 when dad's pay went up to 22 pounds 10 shillings $45 per week as a married man with 2 children,as a qualified "Chair and Cabnet Maker" for the Dept of Public Works in Brisbane, who built and furnished all public buildings and offices in Qld,so it would have been around 1954-5, he retired from there in 1981 as their senior "Quantity Estimator" complete with departmental vehicle :) he passed away last December at 92.


cheers

Uncle, he was very well paid by the standards of the time. A mates older brother finished an apprenticeship as a motor mechanic about 1958 and he almost immediately moved to a new job that paid "Over award" as his former master only paid award wages. He was going to get twenty pounds a week ($40) which we considered wealth beyond our dreams. Another bloke I knew in the era packed up his belongings, wife and two pre-schoolers about 1963-64 and went to Sydney for a motor mechanics job on $60 which you could not get near in Brisbane for a 5 day forty hour week.

[4x4_bugsy]

My old boss at the kitchen place used to explain the low wages as payment back to him for all the mistakes they were going to make, problem was that the jobs had been so badly deskilled that I could actually produce sufficient quantitly and quality with 1st years.
I pity those kids if they had to get a job elsewhere later on...

[Lucus]

when i was an apprentice times where tough, I had to walk up hill both ways to work in knee deep snow with only one shoe...........................

[isuzurover]

My "trade" isn't even recognized in Australia, which makes it very hard for me to put on an " äpprentice" because we get absolutely no support from the govt. I don't have the time to train someone, nor can I really justify footing the whole bill, just to have them walk away from it half way through.

In some ways it's a good thing because we basically have very, very little competition due to the fact that there hasn't been any formally trained scientific glassblowers in many years. The age demographic over here in Australia is mainly 50yrs - 60yrs old guys who are either on the edge of retirement or semi retired already.

I'm told I'm the youngest in the country at 36 years old.

So in the long run it's likely a lot of the work will go off shore (a lot of it already has) which is a shame for the future of a dying art in this country. All too common these days if you ask me.

The govt needs to broaden it's mind so to speak and back all skills, even if they are a small area of industry and support this country better into the future.

Can you please PM me your company details and the rates you charge. And do you work with Quartz?

[cartm58]

Apprenticeship wages have always beens set by the relevant trades awards and are therefore Union/Employer sanctioned and enforced by the Industrial Commissions Federal and State and reflect the relevant worth of an Apprentice in terms of their age skill knowledge and productivity of the relevant qualified trades person

Percentages over 4 years of apprenticeship usually go 45% to 80% of trades rates and is similar to rates for junior employees in non trades jobs compared to an adult wage.

Up to the mid 70's Award wages for women were again set as percentage of the male rate for that job and then they were awarded parity equal pay for equal work case.

Apprentices get paid less for historically good reasons based on the fact they are learning their job whilst they are working

Problem is that from mid 1950's the mind set of manufacturers and accountants was it was cheaper to replace a component or machine than fix it so we have moved to disposable products machine design.

Examples your power tool my dad 1960's black decker drill when its amartures bushes wore out they were replaced and it kept on being used now you go buy a new drill from Bunnings.

Carbies on cars were repaired now due to solid state ignition systems and EFI control injection the units are replaced

Household goods are replaced as cheaper to do so then repair

So when you replacing not repairing you don't need trades people, when you are running a business for a profit you don't need to train apprentices you hire qualified people as you don't need an apprenticeship supervisor and trade teachers eating your profits so large companies in the 70's and 80's closed down their apprenticeship intakes and instead employer organisations like chamber of commerce created group apprenticeship schemes and they hire out apprentices to small business and firms and do all the paperwork and admin and get millions for it from the Government in subsidies.

[blitz]

I left a labourers position earning about $400-00 a week in 1980 to go to an apprenticeship (which was indentured back then not a traineeship, big difference) to get in my first pay including overtime the princely sum of $56-00

Went back in the see the pay clerk as I thought it was a mistake and she said something to the effect (affect) of your an apprentice and they are scum.

Welcome to my next 4 years.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I started as an apprentice electrician in 1972, I was paid $28/per week for a 10 to 12 hour day. I got an extra $2/per week if I arrived at 05:30hrs and got all the worn out second hand Bedford bread vans running (most needed topping up with water several times a day). He required us to work 6 days per week and have a really good excuse for not working on Sunday as well. After 6 months, like the others who started at the same time he still hadn't indentured us and just wanted labourers on apprentice wages. I left and became a "chalkie" on the Sydney Stock Exchange.

I later heard that, my former boss, didn't have a licence and most of the tradesmen had lost their licences because of the general poor work of the company. Peter V, used to keep his company running by using the licence of the most recent tradesman who he employed. A tradesman friend decades later said he worked for Peter for a very short time and several years later found that they were still using his licence. This is an industry that now self regulates! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[alittlebitconcerned]

One thing I don't get how are these apprentices supposed to survive? We bag this new generation if they stay at home under mum and dads roof but I defy anyone to survive on an apprentices wage without financial support from somewhere. Basic tenants of survival are shelter and food, try achieving that in Sydney without help on an apprentices wage. It would be a very tough life indeed.

[Ratel10mm]

It used to be (probably a century or so ago) that as an apprentice blacksmith, your family paid the blackssmith to take you on for your first yeah or 2. Then you worked for free for another year or 2, and finally started getting paid by the blacksmith on a rising scale until you completed your apprenticeship. Often at that point you'd become a journeyman, literally moving between smiths learning all you could from them until you found a permanent position or started tour own smithy.

Apprentices today really DON'T know how easy a life they have of it.

That said, I'd find it really helpful to have a form of curriculum or guidines to judge how effective the training I'm providing actually is. I'm fortunate to have a really good mature apprentice who hates being idle & takes an interest in anything we do that he hasn't sussed out yet. But I'd feel better if I knew I was giving him a comparatively better start.

Edit: I must admit that I was very impressed with the apprentice system when I arrived in Oz. We don't have anything comparable in the U.K. anymore. Ok, if you're through an agency it can be extremely cut throat, but at least there is a system and a recognised training route to achieve. Back in the U.K. if you can find an employer to take you as an apprentice you hope they teach you well & send you on the NVQ, but it's up to your employer's discretion when you stop being the boy. Often to be treated as a man you need to move companies - so employers get pee'd off that they've invested in you only for you to move on, which is one of the things that make it difficult to get an apprenticeship.

I'm in 2 minds about the tool allowance they get here though. Having had to buy my own tools, I take pretty good care of them, which is an attitude I find extremely rare in the current generations of apprentices & not something I've been successful in teaching to any of them. >:(

[Lucus]

A tradesman friend decades later said he worked for Peter for a very short time and several years later found that they were still using his licence. This is an industry that now self regulates! :mad: :mad: :mad:


My father is a HV sparky who recently retired after 50yrs in the trade.

He worked for CET (College of Electricl Training) here in perth for 5 years teaching apprentices and assesing license holders who either allowed there license to expire or had infrigment issues by an inspector and had to reapply and qaulify for there license.

Some of the workmanshi(t)p was appaling, regs not followed short cuts taken left right and centre and workmanship was out and out dangerous.

Im a HD mech by trade with moderate exposure to electrical work through my Dad and I could spot the problems with the work these guys had done, and they where wiring up houses, business's, Hospitals:eek: etc etc.

Problem is once there license is revoked there no one to police them.

[incisor]

was no different in 71 when i started as an apprentice fitter

couldn't live anywhere else than home on the $12 before tax i got each week.

got married late in 3rd year and was getting $95 a week + overtime, paid $35 a week rent for 3bdrm house and was also working at night parking cars over the road from festival hall for kings car parks and was living well. tradesmans wage was $110 then.

in 75 i started doing shutdowns on BE draglines in central qld and was making $600 a week.

[Ean Austral]

Our eldest daughter who is now a nurse, did her time/training thru the uni in Darwin, as that is the nursing apprenticeship so to speak. Altho it was thru the uni it was 3.5yrs full time, and the 1st year did 3mths hands on training at the hospital, 2nd year was 6mths, 3rd yr 9 months..
During that time she recieve no income at all, even tho she was doing full shifts whilst training at the hospital.
If my wife and I couldn't have afforded to keep her and let her live at home rent free for that time she would have dropped out thru not being able to live day to day.

I went to see the uni co-ordinator and also our local member about it as it is just crazy to expect anyone to be able to survive that way, and the answer I recieved was that she can get aus-study or some crap to cover the course, thats all well and good, but working / uni full time for 3.5yrs, how does she live...I wont repeat my words when they said basically bad luck.

She is now qualified, and still at the Darwin hospital, but next time you read why there is a lack of nurses, that may help explain it.

Cheers Ean

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Our eldest daughter who is now a nurse, did her time/training thru the uni in Darwin, as that is the nursing apprenticeship so to speak. Altho it was thru the uni it was 3.5yrs full time, and the 1st year did 3mths hands on training at the hospital, 2nd year was 6mths, 3rd yr 9 months..
During that time she recieve no income at all, even tho she was doing full shifts whilst training at the hospital.
If my wife and I couldn't have afforded to keep her and let her live at home rent free for that time she would have dropped out thru not being able to live day to day.

I went to see the uni co-ordinator and also our local member about it as it is just crazy to expect anyone to be able to survive that way, and the answer I recieved was that she can get aus-study or some crap to cover the course, thats all well and good, but working / uni full time for 3.5yrs, how does she live...I wont repeat my words when they said basically bad luck.

She is now qualified, and still at the Darwin hospital, but next time you read why there is a lack of nurses, that may help explain it.

Cheers EanEan

This is something I know a lot about. I am a hospital general trained nurse and that was essentially an apprenticeship, university training is not an apprenticeship. My salary as a first year nursing student in 1974 was $45/week while I had been earning $95/week as a chalkie the year before. University graduates used to start their professional nursing career on a salary higher than an hospital trained nurse who had been in the workforce for 8 years.

While the university based nursing qualification is difficult and shifts have to be attended at times in hospitals for no money, is it any different to a geology student who has to do time in a mining camp or a law student who has to spend months in the law library and in law practices for nought or even the medical student who also has to spend time doing shifts in hospital. This is part of professional education at university.

By the way I also did a science degree at university full time and have a masters degree in nursing.

[RoverP6B]

Employers (I don't know what percentage) are a large part of the problem. They will take apprentices who are doing their trade studies at T.A.F.E, accept the Government payment to take them, and then use them as cheap unskilled labour rather than actually training them.

The apprentice does not learn the practical skills that he or she is supposed to.

Ron.

[Ean Austral]

Ean

This is something I know a lot about. I am a hospital general trained nurse and that was essentially an apprenticeship, university training is not an apprenticeship. My salary as a first year nursing student in 1974 was $45/week while I had been earning $95/week as a chalkie the year before. University graduates used to start their professional nursing career on a salary higher than an hospital trained nurse who had been in the workforce for 8 years.

While the university based nursing qualification is difficult and shifts have to be attended at times in hospitals for no money, is it any different to a geology student who has to do time in a mining camp or a law student who has to spend months in the law library and in law practices for nought or even the medical student who also has to spend time doing shifts in hospital. This is part of professional education at university.

By the way I also did a science degree at university full time and have a masters degree in nursing.

I do not have any problem with people doing hands on training, but for a period of 6 mths or more, in a single year and still be attending fulltime study, I thought was a bit hard for people to cope with. As I said, my wife and I basically supported her for the who time, sure she got casual work in her holidays to suppliment her spending $$$, but find it a shame that someone can sit on their arse on the dole, or get single parents income, but someone who is trying to get a career and not be a bludger on the system basically couldn't without the help and support we provided.

Why not let them have a payment similar to the dole.

She had no other option other than the uni path as the hospital doesn't take apprentice nurses.

Well done on your degree's

Cheers Ean

[JohnF]

Firstly I wanted to do general Nursing in the late 1960's, when only 3 hospitals in Sydney trained male general nurses. I passed the Entrance exam at Prince Henry hospital, but was told by them that the wages were so poor I would not find accomidation nearby for the money they paid me. Told me to come back when I was 21 when my wages would be a bit higher. Became a pathology technician instead.

My son has just finished his apprentiship as a welder, 75km from home. Duruing his first year, after paying for Fuel in our RR, he only got $25 left--we did not charge him board that first year, but had to provide his own clothes and protective gear. He spent a bit more than his $800 tool alowence on tools.

His boss wants to fire him now but cant as he is on workers compo--broke his hand at work when a powerdrill jammed. Boss says it costs him too much to employ my son, $50 per hour--most of that being insurance and business tax. My son is getting under $1000 per week.

My son does not care. He is planning on leaving the industry. and working in another field--that may involve some 4WDriving.

[Tote]

When I did my apprenticeship in the 1980s I started when I was 16, living at home and my social life and car running expenses were subsidised by my parents.
I had a special licence to drive the 40KM to work and back until I was old enough to get my P plates and I earned less than all my mates who were working as labourers.
I was 18 when I moved out of home and in the 3rd year of my apprenticeship.

Most kids in this "smart nation" are encouraged to stay at school until they are at least 18 hence at the time they start their apprenticeship they are 2 years behind where I was at the same age.
If we want to train tradesmen either the wages have to rise to the level that a 18 year old could earn elsewhere or we need to stop keeping kids who have not got a desire to go to university in the education system until they are 18.

I dont believe the "Gen Y dont want to work" line , there were plenty of hopeless apprentices in 1982 as well. ( and the tradesmen of the time complained about them as well)

Regards,
Tote

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I do not have any problem with people doing hands on training, but for a period of 6 mths or more, in a single year and still be attending fulltime study, I thought was a bit hard for people to cope with. As I said, my wife and I basically supported her for the who time, sure she got casual work in her holidays to suppliment her spending $$$, but find it a shame that someone can sit on their arse on the dole, or get single parents income, but someone who is trying to get a career and not be a bludger on the system basically couldn't without the help and support we provided.

Why not let them have a payment similar to the dole.

She had no other option other than the uni path as the hospital doesn't take apprentice nurses.

Well done on your degree's

Cheers EanEan

The problem is the means test on Austudy (or what ever it's called these days) if a full time student needs to go on clinical placements away from home, then they should be entitled to it.

It used to irk me that with a full time science workload, I have to work part-time weekend night duty in a hospital to fund my studies and yet my flat mate's boyfriend was part time arts degree student, doing the minimum study requirements to still qualify for his dole.

In relation to nursing, I sure wouldn't want to be a patient in a hospital and have a new graduate nurse who had never done a day's experience in a hospital.

The system is wrong and I agree with you that it needs to be fixed, so we can train this country's kids instead of importing supposedly skilled migrants.

Diana

BTW: I think the remote area nursing courses done in Darwin, make some of the most competent nurses we have.

[V8Ian]

I do not have any problem with people doing hands on training, but for a period of 6 mths or more, in a single year and still be attending fulltime study, I thought was a bit hard for people to cope with. As I said, my wife and I basically supported her for the who time, sure she got casual work in her holidays to suppliment her spending $$$, but find it a shame that someone can sit on their arse on the dole, or get single parents income, but someone who is trying to get a career and not be a bludger on the system basically couldn't without the help and support we provided.

Why not let them have a payment similar to the dole.

She had no other option other than the uni path as the hospital doesn't take apprentice nurses.

Well done on your degree's

Cheers EanI thought that was what Aus-study was Ean. I think it's marginally less than the dole, not sure if it's means tested. I don't have any issues with these trainee/student nurses being unpaid, provided they are not being used as replacements for unqualified, paid staff.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I thought that was what Aus-study was Ean. I think it's marginally less than the dole, not sure if it's means tested. I don't have any issues with these trainee/student nurses being unpaid, provided they are not being used as replacements for unqualified, paid staff.Ian

I don't know about Darwin, and the 3 1/2 year course puzzles me, but the usual practice is that undergraduate nurses do placements under the direct supervision of Graduate Nurses and in most places are removed from the bedside during the day for some form of support/education. They do not replace the workforce as the graduate nurse supervising is responsible for everything that the undergraduate student does. From a nursing workforce perspective it is costly because the patient ratios are reduced for the supervising RN.

Some institutions were offering their 2nd year undergraduate nurses the opportunity to sit the enrolled nurses exams and therefore be enrolled by the state board. This allowed them to work part time as an enrolled nurse. There is also a clause in the NSW Nurses award where undergraduate nurses can be employed as assistants in nursing.

Diana

[cartm58]

When nurses were hospital trained they were paid a wage as part of the nursing workforce except when absent doing clinical education the Nurses Union wanting to be recognised as Professionals like all other health professionals demanded that Nurses be University trained and get Bachelor of Science so in the 1980's they ceased working on the job and went to school and did clinical placements and stopped being paid a wage.

Can't eat you cake and have it as well is the saying that covers the nurses

[RoverP6B]

Austudy is only paid to persons 25 years of age and over, studying either full time at a tertiary institution or undertaking a full time Australian apprenticeship.

The maximum paid to a single person is $388.70 per fortnight! You can earn through working a maximum of $236 per fortnight before they start deducting 50 cents in every dollar of your Austudy payment.

Almost forgot, they base your payment on your assets too. $10,000 in the Bank is the maximum allowed before they start reducing your Austudy too.

Ron.

[Chucaro]

That hardly compares to today's dollars. Petrol was not $1.50 per litre, rents were not massive, and beer was not $5.50 a schooner, you didn't need to pay for a licence to fish or shoot.

Jeff

:rocket:

In 1969 the wages for a fitter were $ 52 per week and the rent for a unit was $ 24 per week.
The big diference back then was that was easy to get many jobs options in one week alone.
During the weekends, I used to look on the blackboars in the factories on the Botany Bay area and have more than 5 jobs to choose by the end of the following Monday. Now it is not that easy I guess.
The local plumbers here do want to take apprentices because they cost money and time to train and once they finish they leave to work on the mines.
The small business pay for the training and the big companies get the benefits :(

[Jeff]

I did a Fitter/Machinist apprenticeship in the late 80s, after I finished my time I left the trade and did not return. I wanted to do an Army apprenticeship, but at the time you had to sign up for 9 years, the Navy was 12 years, so being 16 years old at the time I saw it as a very long time and didn't do it. I later changed my mind after a year doing a civvy apprenticeship, but when I applied I was told I was six days too old for tgheir next intake. I always wondered if it would have been better or worse doing a defence force apprenticeship, as you would be there to learn not being used as cheap labour.

Does anyone have experience of Army or Navy apprenticeships? Are they still any good?

Jeff

:rocket:

[rick130]

[snip]

Does anyone have experience of Army or Navy apprenticeships? Are they still any good?

Jeff

:rocket:

Dear old Dad had business when I was growing up where he employed something like 12-14 people and had at least two apprentices, sometimes more on at any time.

He also did 'work experience' training for the Army and RAAF, I can't recall exactly but I think they either worked for him for either six weeks or three months to broaden their training.

A couple of them were very good, he poached at least one who was an instrument fitter that had done a Journeymans RAAF course in Refrig/air conditioning and he always said he'd employ a tradie that had done their time in the ADF as they'd been taught properly, no corner cutting on their education/work practices as a lot of private firms do.

[rick130]

A couple of quick notes on pay while an apprentice.

There's a good reason the pay in first and second year is crap, mostly the individual is an overhead, they are often incredibly unproductive and can be quite costly in work related stuff ups.

Having said that, it's still crazy that I was initially employed as a Trademans Assistant until put on the spot after a month of working "what are you going to do ?"

On becoming a first year apprentice my pay plummeted from $300/week (beginning of 1983, I was doing a lot of OT) to $95 :eek:
That hurt, considering my job didn't change.
I was in effect site foreman (without the title) on contract jobs we were doing with experienced labourers working directly under me, organising the other trades on site and I was only a pimply faced 17 YO straight out of year 12.

[ScottW]

Everyone I know who has done an appretiship has complained about how bad the pay was. Always seems to be the biggest complaint.

So I simply tell them no matter how bad their appretiship pay may seem, my uni pay was worse.

[stig0000]

Everyone I know who has done an appretiship has complained about how bad the pay was. Always seems to be the biggest complaint.

So I simply tell them no matter how bad their appretiship pay may seem, my uni pay was worse.

but at the end off the app the pay is still no good,, and the uni will have a way higher pay, well seems that way from what iv seen???

[B92 8NW]

Everyone I know who has done an appretiship has complained about how bad the pay was. Always seems to be the biggest complaint.

So I simply tell them no matter how bad their appretiship pay may seem, my uni pay was worse.

I agree. Uni pay is far far worse. There's no way the "independant" Youth Allowance/AUSTUDY payment of $388.70 a fortnight can get accommodation, food, bills etc (ie indepedant living as the name suggests)... but the argument from those who don't go to uni is that by going uni, you're setting yourself up for higher than average salaries for the rest of your life. I don't necessarily believe this is true.

[B92 8NW]

but at the end off the app the pay is still no good,, and the uni will have a way higher pay, well seems that way from what iv seen???

Not necessarily. You start working with a huge debt to repay and if you've done something that 1000s of others have like arts/commerce/business etc you'll probably find it damn near impossible to get a job. Plenty of grads can't get a job and end up stuck in their menial **** job that they were doing whilst studying, like retail or working at restaurants etc. Becomes pretty soul destroying too, being treated like crap in an arse end job when you've got the qualifications to be elsewhere.

At least with an apprenticeship you have a normal working week and weekends, get paid at least something for what you're learning and usually have better than average job prospects at the end.

[blue_mini]

I regret going to uni. Not so much because of the money, if you need more money you just work harder.
The holidays as an apprentice would be so much better. I have had maybe 4 days off in 3 years of uni. Thats a full day where i can get away from everything and do nothing. Even through holidays its been working or looking for vac work, even getting a jump on assignments.

Makes a fitting and turning apprenticeship look so much better.

[clubagreenie]

My current irk is I'm sure that the uni is renting out the "student" accomodation to others as people are coming and going at working hours and are certainly not students.

[cartm58]

Taken from a Enterprise Agreement for a major contractor working on the Pluto project in WA pay rays for Apprentices are based on the Tradesmen CW5 rate currently $1400 for 36 hour week so a 3rd apprentice roughly on $29 for 36 hour week and 4th year on $35 hour for 36 hour week and they usually work 45 to 52 hours week on the project.

However percentages reflect Award requirements as a percentage of tradesmen wage weekly rate

APPRENTICES WAGE RATES
(7) Apprentices shall be paid the applicable percentage of the CW5 wage rate as set out below:
Four Year Term
% of CW5 Tradesperson Wage Rate
First Year
42
Second Year
55
Third Year
75
Fourth Year
88
Three and a Half Year Term

First six months
42
Next Year
55
Next Year
75
Final Year
88
Three Year Term

First Year
55
Second Year
75
Third Year
88
(8) Adult apprentices (over 21 years of age) shall be paid a wage not less than the ordinary wage rate prescribed for an Employee classified as CW1.

[Ratel10mm]

Lucky beggars! I'm on roughly a 3rd year's rate with 20-odd year's experience! :O

[Bigbjorn]

Another barrier to the employment of apprentices is the "block release" for TAFE training. Block release is where apprentices are released from their employers for blocks of six weeks at TAFE. This is no doubt beneficial from the teaching and college utilisation viewpoint. Block release started in Queensland about thirty years ago.

Ask pretty well any employer about block release and you will find that employers generally resent it. As one guy said to me "It seems as if you never see the young buggers, just pay them." He pointed out that his firm works a nine day fortnight and apprentices whilst at college are entitled to normal conditions. So they return from college and are owed three days off, and another day at the end of the first fortnight back on the job. In eight weeks he has seen his apprentices for six days. He and many others would prefer a return to the previous system where the apprentices went to college half a day a week in the employers time and two evenings a week in their own time.

[ScottW]

but at the end off the app the pay is still no good,, and the uni will have a way higher pay, well seems that way from what iv seen???

Depends what apprentiship or uni course you do. Grease monkeys don't get paid well fullstop. Arts degrees either.

Engineers, welders, plumbers, sparkies, chippies etc (If you are competent) do better.

[RoverP6B]

ScottW wrote,...
Depends what apprentiship or uni course you do. Grease monkeys don't get paid well fullstop. Arts degrees either.

Engineers, welders, plumbers, sparkies, chippies etc (If you are competent) do better.

Hello Scott,

All of the above are trades except for the Engineers who by definition must obtain a University degree from 4 years of full time study or the equiv part time/sandwich. I realise that a lot of people use the term Engineer, and many quite wrongly, so these days Professional is used in front of Engineer so as to separate the true Engineers from those people who actually don't have the educational qualifications to back it up.

A graduate Engineer with 12 weeks industrial experience obtained during 3rd and 4th years while at University, will, depending on the branch of Engineering studied, start on a salary ranging from typically $50,000 to $80,000 per year.

Ron.

[Bearman]

I have a young lady doing work experience with me at the moment, i'm thinking of offering her an apprenticship, she's actually keen and interested in the work, and very helpful.
Oh and most important, she bakes cakes for Matt and I for smoko:D

Sounds like a smart young lady with her head screwed on the right way:D:D:D

[Graz]

I have always wondered about the reason that there seems to be a lack of tradesman and apprentices coming thru in Australia, and recently put this question to someone who does the engine work on our boat.

This guy is one of the best tradesman i've seen, done his time with detroit deisel and traveled to many places both remote and oversea's whilst working for them, and they still get him back to trouble shoot if they have a problem engine... he's mid 40's and works for himself now.

His reply was.. most people wont pay the hourly rate for 1 person let alone him and an apprentice..
He used to rebuild about 20-30 engines a year, from small truck engines to larger deisels in boats/ road trains etc, now people just buy low milage imported engines.so now rebuilds about 5 a year if lucky.
But what surprised me most was he said that most work places wont allow him to bring his own offsider, he has to use 1 supplied by them..

This linked to the red-tape and other things that he said about employing people and he decided to stay solo..

I am sure the same story is repeated everywhere, but what a shame that someone with such skill and knowledge of their trade isn't encouraged to pass it on.

I also would say that doing an apprenticeship is to low for some of the current generation also.

Cheers Ean

The lack of apprenticeships is particularly noticeable in General Aviation (GA) aircraft maintenance. There must be too many brick walls plus the very narrow margins of GA profitability for a lot of businesses to consider going through the process. The average age of the aircraft engineer (LAME) is in the region of 56 years. Confine those figures to GA (and not the airlines) the age profile is significantly higher.
Both State and Federal Governments must stop and look at this issue and do something real to and rapid to prevent serious degradation of GA, from the commencement of an aviation apprenticeship to a qualified and affective LAME takes may years.
If it wasn't for the ex military aviation maintenance personnel working in GA organisations, be it short term in most cases, GA would be in deep trouble.
Then there is the mining industry to compete with when attracting (potencial) skilled personnel .

[Vern]

Sounds like a smart young lady with her head screwed on the right way:D:D:DI just wonder if you can get Bikini's in high vis for those hot days:p.
Nah to be honest, she's the best work experience person i've had, keen and not affraid to do the work. And she helps to keep the peace between Matt and I:)

[RR P38]

The primary reason for the shortage of tradesmen and apprentices emanates from the Howard govts removal of training incentives during the 90s.
Chronic shortages take 10-15 yrs to manifest them selves as we are seeing currently within industry as older tradesmen retire.
The retirement of trades people is just gathering more pace, one only needs to look at the aviation industry to see the lack of skilled workers (trades).
I work offshore, so desperate are we for qualified personnel that you can be fast tracked and be qualified in 2 years whereas a decade or 2 ago it would have taken 5 years.
Most companies dont want to PAY to train skilled workers and neither does the Govt this comes at their and our nations cost.
We only need to look at the growth in wages in the mining industry to see this.Chronic shortages lead to wages pressures end of story.
So bad is the situation within the Australian shipping industry that the MUA are self funding the upskilling/training of its own members.Yes thats right workers are paying out of their own pockets for the training that employers require for a safe productive work place.
Just look no further than the "skilled migration" intake 100,000 people a year?? yes these people come here with qualifications we need but to the detriment of local workers who cant afford to PAY for their own traning as say an apprentice fitter, mechanic,electrician. The other down side is they all want a house and we all know how much it costs to buy a house.Similar costs are migrating into the skills base of local born workers who will be resigned to menial tasks within the work place.

[Chucaro]

That hardly compares to today's dollars. Petrol was not $1.50 per litre, rents were not massive, and beer was not $5.50 a schooner, you didn't need to pay for a licence to fish or shoot.

Jeff

:rocket:

It is not how much cost the petrol or cost of living now and before, it is about the percentaje of the wages.
Never was easy and those who made it was because pure determination of being something in the future.
It was easy here compared with other countries, I did not got pay for doing my apprentiship and have to have a job on the side.
Then again, the apprentice back then at home, was not a cheap labour, he have a full time tradesman with him teaching the trade.
I remember one of my first jobs was to rebuild Detroit engines, 6 of them. I done the job and the fitter was looking and given directions.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The primary reason for the shortage of tradesmen and apprentices emanates from the Howard govts removal of training incentives during the 90s.
Chronic shortages take 10-15 yrs to manifest them selves as we are seeing currently within industry as older tradesmen retire.
The retirement of trades people is just gathering more pace, one only needs to look at the aviation industry to see the lack of skilled workers (trades).
<snip>Yes - whatever happened to the QANTAS apprentice school over in Roseberry? It used to turn out hundreds of tradesmen (and women) in all the aviation trades.

[ScottW]

ScottW wrote,...

Hello Scott,

All of the above are trades except for the Engineers who by definition must obtain a University degree from 4 years of full time study or the equiv part time/sandwich. I realise that a lot of people use the term Engineer, and many quite wrongly, so these days Professional is used in front of Engineer so as to separate the true Engineers from those people who actually don't have the educational qualifications to back it up.

A graduate Engineer with 12 weeks industrial experience obtained during 3rd and 4th years while at University, will, depending on the branch of Engineering studied, start on a salary ranging from typically $50,000 to $80,000 per year.

Ron.

I was referring to an engineering degree being useful, as compared to an arts degree, which isn't. I forgot about workshop engineer connection :D

[keith73]

When i did mine apprenticeship many years ago 1st year and 2nd wages was pathetic you could not live on it and i think thats why poeple are turning away from it (thats why i had to sell my S3 land rover:().But one thing they dont realise is when is you finish your apprenticeship your in high demand and the wages get alot higher.

[clubagreenie]

Yeah but the reason you're in demand is only 1/3rd of the apprentices survived their time on pitiful wages. So they're in demand due to lack of surviving numbers.

[Bigbjorn]

A major problem with being a skilled tradesman in Australia is the poor career path and the public perception of tradesmen as blue collar workers one step up from a labourer.

You do an apprenticeship, gain your trade qualifications, maybe an advanced trade certificate or two, and work for award wages or a modest over-award payment unless you are prepared to go to work on major projects or in the iceholes of Australia on mines and other operations. Perhaps you become a leading hand or foreman. To rise above this level means you go into management and go off the tools and your skills are removed from the work.

I was a fitter-machinist 1st. Class long ago. Here we are regarded as greasy fitters. In the USA a 1st. Class machinist is regarded as a skilled technician, also in Germany.

[slug_burner]

Apprentices and would be apprentices, get over it. You will have to live at home while you train. If flipping burgers at Maccas pays more and that is what you want to do for the rest of your life, go do it.

[JDNSW]

......... To rise above this level means you go into management and go off the tools and your skills are removed from the work.
........

This is a major problem with our society, and not just with tradesmen. In any field where skills are involved we have the same situation. The only advancement available above at most one or two steps is to move into some form of management, and as you say, "go off the tools". Now if the organisation's best skilled workers are also the best managers, this may have some advantages - but this is by no means always or even usually the case. And even if it were, you have just lost your best skilled worker, which is hardly a help to the organisation.

I have seen this myself in my own field (geoscience) and in related fields, including in academia, and I have no reason to think it is any different in any field. And I don't have an answer to the problem.

John

[woody]

just going to throw this one out there...

Is there any correlation with the decline in trade union based industries and the training of skilled skilled tradesmen?????

[B92 8NW]

Apprentices and would be apprentices, get over it. You will have to live at home while you train. If flipping burgers at Maccas pays more and that is what you want to do for the rest of your life, go do it.

All well and good if you come from a functional family. There's a hell of a lot who don't and how will they be able to better themselves so that they don't end up like their alcoholic/drug addict parents who never wanted them in the first place?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This is a major problem with our society, and not just with tradesmen. In any field where skills are involved we have the same situation. The only advancement available above at most one or two steps is to move into some form of management, and as you say, "go off the tools". Now if the organisation's best skilled workers are also the best managers, this may have some advantages - but this is by no means always or even usually the case. And even if it were, you have just lost your best skilled worker, which is hardly a help to the organisation.

I have seen this myself in my own field (geoscience) and in related fields, including in academia, and I have no reason to think it is any different in any field. And I don't have an answer to the problem.

JohnIf someone is really good at a job, the management promote them, they keep getting promoted until they are hopeless, at which point they stop getting promoted. The corollary: if someone would make an excellent manager or CEO but enter the company on the shop floor and turn out to be a hopeless sweeper, they'll never get promoted to management.

The Peter Principle. "A person is promoted to their level of highest incompetence."

Diana

[rovercare]

So to those that say apprentice rates are poor, who do you propose tip in the extra coin? the employer? well noone will want an apprentice if they have to shell out the extra coin for an inexperienced employee, what about the gubiment? so up goes your tax rate again, so I wanna know how you propose to fix it?


Maybe people are better of heading to uni for 4 years, no pay and earn themselves a hecs debt:p

Suck it up, make do and get your trade, its only 4 years, 2 of those with pay that's hard to live off, not much in the grand sceme of life really....if you need more money, get a second job, everyone wants something for nothing:(

[rovercare]

just going to throw this one out there...

Is there any correlation with the decline in trade union based industries and the training of skilled skilled tradesmen?????

Privatisation is the huge killer, so many apprentices came through places like old uncle SEC, these days private companys have to train up apprentices, the good ones leave for better pay, then they get stuck with the dead wood

[Pierre]

Don't start me...

Rant on

In the power industry in Victoria, the SEC was almost the sole trainer of linesmen and the complementary and associated trades. After privatization, power companies just used the well of trained people to fill the jobs needed. Nearly 20 years on, the youngest of the SEC trained linesmen are about 40, and more than 70% of the 1993 workforce has either retired or left the power industry.

No matter what you might think of government privatization of essential services - power, water, gas, rail, public transport - the ONE thing common to all of the selloffs is that lip service was paid to the training of personnel to replace natural attrition in the workforce.

The outcome is imported linespersons in the power industry, some good and others not so good. In other trades, we are bemoaning the fact that "we can't get a tradesman' and that scarcity is driving the cost of tradesmen's services up.

The question is really one about forethought in government. Even we knew that apprentices would not be employed in the new regimes post 1993, and we were just 'dumb linies'. The workforce planning of utilities like SEC, even with all the associated faults, provided an ongoing, upgraded and in the best cases, motivated workforce of well trained tradespeople.

Too late, our industry has come to realize that the training associated with tradespeople MUST be shouldered by the trades themselves. If the all mighty buck is going to be the overarching driver of what happens everywhere, then trades which do not realize this self evident fact will decline and our nation will sink FAST towards the soft bellied 'service provider' nation we seem to be approaching and embracing, because it's easy!

Leadership provided by government and peak trades representatives has been stunted by the maxim that 'it's all too hard'. Malcolm Fraser was bloody right!

Rant off.

Pete

[rovercare]

Don't start me...

Rant on

In the power industry in Victoria, the SEC was almost the sole trainer of linesmen and the complementary and associated trades. After privatization, power companies just used the well of trained people to fill the jobs needed. Nearly 20 years on, the youngest of the SEC trained linesmen are about 40, and more than 70% of the 1993 workforce has either retired or left the power industry.

No matter what you might think of government privatization of essential services - power, water, gas, rail, public transport - the ONE thing common to all of the selloffs is that lip service was paid to the training of personnel to replace natural attrition in the workforce.

The outcome is imported linespersons in the power industry, some good and others not so good. In other trades, we are bemoaning the fact that "we can't get a tradesman' and that scarcity is driving the cost of tradesmen's services up.

The question is really one about forethought in government. Even we knew that apprentices would not be employed in the new regimes post 1993, and we were just 'dumb linies'. The workforce planning of utilities like SEC, even with all the associated faults, provided an ongoing, upgraded and in the best cases, motivated workforce of well trained tradespeople.

Too late, our industry has come to realize that the training associated with tradespeople MUST be shouldered by the trades themselves. If the all mighty buck is going to be the overarching driver of what happens everywhere, then trades which do not realize this self evident fact will decline and our nation will sink FAST towards the soft bellied 'service provider' nation we seem to be approaching and embracing, because it's easy!

Leadership provided by government and peak trades representatives has been stunted by the maxim that 'it's all too hard'. Malcolm Fraser was bloody right!

Rant off.

Pete

Exackery!

[DiscoMick]

Private employers are never gunna pay for apprentice training, it just won't happen, and govts. have cut apprentice numbers too.
Maybe the only answer is to have a contract between the apprentice and the employer and under that deal the apprentice could run up a Fee-Help (HECS) debt like uni students and get Austudy for the whole period and in addition the employer pays the award rate while the apprentice is at work, but not when they're away training. Then, when trained and working and earning above the cutoff point, the new tradesperson pays back the debt to the government.
This scheme controls the cost to the employer, the govt. is helping produce tradies the same as it helps produce uni graduates and the apprentice should have enough money to get by with the combination of the award pay from the employer plus Austudy.
One thing is for sure, unless the govt. steps in its not going to improve.

[Vern]

A major problem with being a skilled tradesman in Australia is the poor career path and the public perception of tradesmen as blue collar workers one step up from a labourer.

You do an apprenticeship, gain your trade qualifications, maybe an advanced trade certificate or two, and work for award wages or a modest over-award payment unless you are prepared to go to work on major projects or in the iceholes of Australia on mines and other operations. Perhaps you become a leading hand or foreman. To rise above this level means you go into management and go off the tools and your skills are removed from the work.

I was a fitter-machinist 1st. Class long ago. Here we are regarded as greasy fitters. In the USA a 1st. Class machinist is regarded as a skilled technician, also in Germany.sorry Brian but i think thats a load of BS, i earn 10x what i did as an apprentice, because i got off my ass and took a risk to work for myself, its bloody hard work, i've had no kick backs, and personally i think i'm above those levels of management type. If/when i put on an apprentice, i'm doing it on my own back and going to try help them to be the best and most useful tradeperson for my business that i can make them, as its all about my business otherwise i wouldn't put them on. There's tradesmen and then theres risk takers, unless your prepared to take the risk, you'll only be one step up from a blue collar worker. You obviously know this being in your own business, this is just my perspective on it being a poor career path. Its not about hand outs, its about hard work and commitment:)
my2c

[imatt]

There is no doubt that privatisation has killed off many trade apprenticeships, and poor wages is an excuse used all too often, yes trying to live out of home on apprentice wage is near impossible without support from somewhere but can be done, I myself have done it with two young children in my mid 20's, but most times apprentices drop out because the job is not for them. So many school leavers these days and probably always don't know what they want to do, so they will try many jobs until they are happy, this can usually be decided by how much they are paid. There seems to be huge pressure in this day and age to have everything eg. mobile phone, computer, new car, new clothes, effectively keeping up with the jones's. Just go to any tafe nowadays and see what cars the young people are driving, they are generally all newish and have fancy stereos, wheels you name it. I found when looking for an apprenticeship when I was 24 that most employers only wanted to employ teenagers, I was lucky that my company required an aptitude test before interviews, and I was lucky to score high enough to get an interview and show my determination. I'm amazed today at how much the new apprentices earn at my work, when I started it was $7.90p/h, there was no adult apprentice wage but I managed to get paid at a year above until fourth year, nowadays they start at about $16p/h, I started my apprenticeship in 2003, my fourth years rates were $19p/h. I think more needs to be done to expose young people to future careers so that they can make informed decisions when they leave school so that they are not jumping jobs from early on.
Cheers Matt

[Chucaro]

All well and good if you come from a functional family. There's a hell of a lot who don't and how will they be able to better themselves so that they don't end up like their alcoholic/drug addict parents who never wanted them in the first place?

Why always is an excuse :(
I was 23 years old when come to Australia and have a wife and 2 babies to support, rent to pay (30% of my income) and set up the home.
I used to work as a fitter during the day and as an aircraft cleaner for TAA in Sydney during the night.
Why a young lad can no do the same?
Willing power I guess or spoiled by the Australian conditions.:(

[scarry]

I did my apprenticeship 30yrs ago,got $60 a week,lived away from home as my parents lived out of the city, i worked in the city.Used the pushy a lot until i borowed the money to get an old ute in my second yr.I also had a second job working for a guy who just fixed fridges,which helped me making ends meet & also gave me experience that i wasn't getting as the govt. entity i was apprenticed with did mainly larger commercial ref & a/c.

At the end of my apprenticeship i was sacked,as they did to all apprentices & had to find my feet & get on with life.

Twenty yrs ago i then became self employed,& have had many apprentices.I have found most of them have been good,the best ones are the older one's that have already worked for a while ,usually in a different industry.They seem to be keener & have a better work ethic than the ones straight out of school.Sure,some i have had to pull into line or had a good talking to,but they have all become good tradesman,some very good.Two were also my son's.

There are many reasons why there are not many apprentices around these days.Many leave the trade because of there own reasons,either don't like it,or think they can do better elsewhere.

Economic reasons are also an issue,many of our customers do not want to pay for an apprentice who in there eyes doesn't seem to be doing much.Some jobs we need two people,but not all jobs.So at times the apprentice is not chargeable & then becomes an overhead.

Pay rates are also an issue,but if they increased the apprentice pay rates,there would be less around as company's could not afford them.

An apprentice is an investment in the future,they may have a low rate of pay for 4 yrs or so,but once qualified,a good trady can get a job anywhere,and also may eventually be self employed & make some very good money.

It is also a shame that many apprentices are not trained very well,as many of the tradesman around are also not very good.Bad work ethics & workmanship are passed on to the apprentice.In some company's they also seem to spend a lot of time doing the **** work.The college our apprentices go to has teachers no where near the quality of the teachers we had 30 yrs ago:( In fact my youngest son had an electrical teacher who had done nothing else than run cables on a building site,couldn't even draw a simple wiring circuit for a 3 phase cold room.

[B92 8NW]

Why always is an excuse :(
I was 23 years old when come to Australia and have a wife and 2 babies to support, rent to pay (30% of my income) and set up the home.
I used to work as a fitter during the day and as an aircraft cleaner for TAA in Sydney during the night.
Why a young lad can no do the same?
Willing power I guess or spoiled by the Australian conditions.:(

I'm surprised I even raised that point to begin with. Since when am I a compassionate person?:D. Personally if someone refused to work and was on drugs/alcohol instead I'd send them to a Gulag to be worked to death.

[DiscoMick]

When I started work my pay was so low I didn't actually pay any tax.

My son was lucky to find a boss who kept him on thru a carpentry apprenticeship and then after for a while, but now he's just gone out alone and is struggling to get enough work, but I'm confident it will come together as he has a good reputation.

I thik there should be expanded trade training in schools, as in Europe, so kids can get a taste of several trades berfore leaving school, and maybe some initial knowledg which could help them get into a trade. High school seems too focussed on the academic for me, as many people really don't want to go to university. We should give trade training the same resources we put into higher education.

Our son is smart, but was bored at school and asked to leave in year 11 and get an apprenticeship. We said he could leave if he found an employer to take him on. He had to move away from home to Brisbane to find one, but he did it and stuck at it, so I really respect that. He and his wife have just bought their second property and I fully expect him to be better set up financially by 40 than I was.

[cartm58]

For all those posting on apprentice pay rates can l gain point out that those rates have been the same for the last 50 years or more as set percentages of the relevant tradesman wage rate prevailing at the time.

What you got was relevant to the pay of tradesman and their wage was relative to cost of living at the time so a 1960's apprentice is no better off or worse off than a 2011 apprentice in terms of payment as a percentage of trades rate.

Yes there has been a decline in Australian manufacturing industry and therefore a decline in opportunities for apprentices in the last years

Yes the large employer apprentice schools across industries have closed down and been replaced by group training and Yes there has been changes in quality of apprenticeship training from Trades Schools to TAFE colleges.

Yes today we more readily replace whole units rather than rebuild or repair but that is reflective of a change in manufacturing and technology rather than a change in apprenticeship standards.

Australia always has had a skills shortage in trades, my dad worked at TAA from the early 1960's and as ex RAF boy apprentice was only one of a few tradesmen actually trained to work on jet engines and he had to train ex motor mechanics and fitters to work on jet engines at Essendon Hangers.

As for lament over of trades skills in decline l have been reading since the 1970's employers media statements about falling education standards and aptitude of young people working for them and the lack of work ethic so nothing new there either

[RoverP6B]

cartm58 wrote,...
As for lament over of trades skills in decline l have been reading since the 1970's employers media statements about falling education standards and aptitude of young people working for them and the lack of work ethic so nothing new there either

Falling education standards is right. Many T.A.F.E courses have been modified (dumbed down) so as to ensure students are able to pass. If the standards remained as they were 20 or 30 years ago, very few would pass, courses would be largely empty and the state governement would close the courses completely.

The attitude of many students is appalling, no respect for the teachers, no desire to study, they expect because they attend they should be given the qualification.

Ron.

[clubagreenie]

Dumbed down isn't wrong.

A couple of years back I started (gave up due to dumbness) fitting/machining as it was a pre-req for another course. At 37 years old, "this is a screwdriver, a flat blade is flat, a phillips blade is a cross. You can match the correct tool to the appropriate screw by making sure it fits"

Not ****ting you, quoted direct from the text.

[DiscoMick]

Sadly some people might not know that so they have to include it to make sure.

[clubagreenie]

Sorry, buit if I was teaching and I had to dumb it down, it wouldn't be. They'd be failures. Guess that's why I'm a terrible teacher of anything. You can watch once, ask the next time when you're doing it for yourself. Then your on your own.

[98_Defender]

G'day,

As someone who finished school relatively recently, i just thought i'd share this,

when we were in high school a couple of my friends and are i got in trouble and were dragged before the headmaster (can't recall exactly what i'd done but it certainly wasn't the first time we'd been dragged in there) :D, anyway after a severe lecture about the errors of our ways we got a threat that "If you keep on this path, you'll probably only end up as tradesman! is that something you want??"

At the time the idea of a trade seemed great,(anything to get out of school) but it goes to show not just the attitude of younger generations towards apprenticeship but the opinion of the education systems and there lack of encouragement towards trades for school leavers.

charming isn't it...

[DiscoMick]

Clubagreenie, the idea of training is not to assume any knowledge, but to ensure everything is covered, even if it seems obvious. You can't test someone on something if you haven't first taught it. Once taught, even if its only 'Read this for homework and ask me questions tomorrow', then its fair game for testing. Competency-based training requires competence to be proven through the person demonstrating that he/she can actually do it, not merely know about it from reading stuff.

[Ean Austral]

G'day,

As someone who finished school relatively recently, i just thought i'd share this,

when we were in high school a couple of my friends and are i got in trouble and were dragged before the headmaster (can't recall exactly what i'd done but it certainly wasn't the first time we'd been dragged in there) :D, anyway after a severe lecture about the errors of our ways we got a threat that "If you keep on this path, you'll probably only end up as tradesman! is that something you want??"

At the time the idea of a trade seemed great,(anything to get out of school) but it goes to show not just the attitude of younger generations towards apprenticeship but the opinion of the education systems and there lack of encouragement towards trades for school leavers.

charming isn't it...

When I got expelled from school and started work on the trawlers, I went back to the school 2 years later to see my younger sister and met the teacher that I had got into alot of trouble from and he asked me what I was doing ( think he expected me to say I was on the dole )..I told him I was working on the trawlers as a fisherman, and he said
" OH, 1 step below a tradesman".. So its been around awhile..

27 years later and im still working my trade, I still Love the job, its just the politics that come with it now that put it down.

To be honest I have not met alot of people that seem to judge someone by their chosen career,
But a wise man once told me to never judge a person by the car they drive.

Something I have never forgotten.

Cheers Ean

[DiscoMick]

We'd still be living in gunyas without tradies.

[Vern]

funny thing is i bet i earn double what the school teachers earn:D

[Ean Austral]

funny thing is i bet i earn double what the school teachers earn:D


I just wish I got as many holidays as they seem to get..:wasntme:


Cheers Ean

[BigJon]

I am a mechanic by trade. I haven't worked fulltime as such for about 8 or 9 years. However I am now in the process of purchasing my own business to run and work in, so I am now back on the spanners. I don't feel lower class for being a tradie. I am sure I will make more money in this stage of my career than any other stage.

[Utemad]

98_Defender, my Dad is a mechanical engineer and I was always told if I didn't do well at maths/physics etc I'd just end up a mechanic and not an engineer.
Well I didn't do well at maths etc but I'm not a mechanic or an engineer as I didn't want to do either so I guess won that one.

[slug_burner]

funny thing is i bet i earn double what the school teachers earn:D

And probably double that earned by many of the students that teacher thought were going on to a good future.

It is all down to what you make of your situation not what others think.

[Bigbjorn]

Dumbed down isn't wrong.

A couple of years back I started (gave up due to dumbness) fitting/machining as it was a pre-req for another course. At 37 years old, "this is a screwdriver, a flat blade is flat, a phillips blade is a cross. You can match the correct tool to the appropriate screw by making sure it fits"

Not ****ting you, quoted direct from the text.

The course is really for 15-16 year old pre-vocational year students or first year apprentices of similar age, not 37 year olds. Many of these kids are from families living in city apartments or other situations where their families either have no need or little need for tools or don't have or use tools.

These kids have to be started with the basics. Plenty of high schools don't offer any form of industrial training. State education departments are usually loath to fund extensive and expensive machine shops or fabrication shops at high schools.