Leaking Voltage?

[~Rich~]

Hi Guys,
I've been having this occasional problem for maybe 6mths now. Only occuring 3 times within that period.
Unable to start due to insufficient charge. :(

I have replaced the main battery 18mths ago.
I had the alternator replaced last year.
I also have a Traxide SC80 LR with a Optima Yellow Top battery which age I'm unsure of.
When starting first thing in the morning I get the special programs unavailable notice but this goes away within 10 sec of starting.

I've had both batteries and the alternator checked but all seem fine.
When I have the "Flat battery" I jump start it and only need to drive 10min and be able to restart the car no problem.

What is happening overnight? Why is my voltage dropping?

Yesterday I used an in car Makita 7.2v battery charger off the main batttery to charge a drill battery, this too was enough to drop the voltage enough to stop starting the vehicle.

Puzzled but want to sort it out - advice please. :confused:

[roamer]

Have you checked the negative connection to the chassis. :confused::confused:


Ken

[drivesafe]

As Ken posted, start with checking all power cable connections, both negative and positive cables.

A question or two.

How often do you drive and when you do, how long do you drive for.

Also, in the mean time, disconnect the SC80-LR at the plug on the driver’s side and see if your cranking battery goes flat more often and/or quicker.

BTW, do you have a multi meter?

[~Rich~]

I have been driving 750k a week!
So I think the charge should be there!
I've recharged both batteries with the link pulled apart and I'll leave it that way until I find the fault.
At least if they are not connected they both won't be at a sub starting level as they have done before. ( And I'll have a battery to start off!)
Yes I have a Multimeter.
Today I checked them when I could not start and they both where at 11.8v

I'll check the Earths, I know where the Aux battery one is but the Main one is?

[gps-au]

COLD morning ?

I noticed the other day that my Aux batteries was down under 12 Vdc.

Moved vehicle from garage to around the front into the sun. I noticed that no secondary charge was made (main was too low for that to occur).

Went out after an hour and secondary was back to over 12 vdc.

Reminds me of years ago when I had to place a heat source overnight, under the engine & another under the fuel tank in the old nissan when I was working up the snow & camping out every night for 3 months.

[~Rich~]

Sydney Northern Beaches does not get that cold and last night was about a min of 12 deg. In my garage I'm sure it was warmer than that so I don't think that is it seeing I had the prob 6mths ago as well.

[drivesafe]

I'll check the Earths, I know where the Aux battery one is but the Main one is?

Hi Rich, the cranking battery earth is in the same place as the auxiliary battery's earth, on the passenger side, but it can be hard to get at.

You can do an earth test with your multi meter, just measure the voltage difference between the cranking battery’s neg post and one of the earthing points just in front of the cranking battery compartment, in the side of the guard.

With the motor running, you should have a “0” reading if all is well.

[Graeme]

I had the alternator replaced last year.
Are the alternator bolts still tight? With the motor idling and with some extra current load (eg lights on), check for possible voltage difference between the alternator casing and the block.

[~Rich~]

Thx guys,

I checked for any voltage difference between the Earth point in front of the Main battery once started.
There was a 0.01 difference with the Multimeter set to 20v range.

I latter checked it again with my Multimeter set to 2v range with the engine off and found a 0.02 difference.

I then checked the Aux battery which is still unlinked to teh main and did not find any difference.

Would that be enough to cause the issue?

[drivesafe]

The small voltage difference is a good reading and shows there is little lose on the neg cable, and shows this is NOT your problem.

Keep on searching!

[~Rich~]

So that would prove my Earths are good, I guess I need to check the alternator mounts and connections next. Is the best way from above or below it?

[Wilbur]

~Rich~, you say you had your battery and alternator replaced recently. Was that done on spec to try to fix this problem, or had they actually failed?

I presume you have a D3 - petrol or diesel? How many k's? What year model? Are your 750 k's a week done by daily driving or just weekend driving?

Cheers,

Paul

[~Rich~]

2005 TDV6 HSE, 134,000 kms, that 750 is my work day week total for 5 days @ 150.
The problem has shown up months after the Alternator replacement and approx 1 yr after the battery was replaced. Both failed seperately.

[Wilbur]

2005 TDV6 HSE, 134,000 kms, that 750 is my work day week total for 5 days @ 150.
The problem has shown up months after the Alternator replacement and approx 1 yr after the battery was replaced. Both failed seperately.
~Rich~, when it fails to start, is that on a Monday after an idle weekend, or does it happen any old time?

[Wilbur]

.... and do you have any load regularly connected to the aux battery?

[~Rich~]

Nope

[drivesafe]

Hi Rich, and there is a known problem with the V6 D3s where their earth, between the motor and the chassis, breaks it’s bond at the chassis.

It’s not an easy job to fix as you need to take the front right hand wheel off and the wheel arch cover, to get at the chassis earth.

You can either do that and/or fit a new engine to chassis earth.

A little tip Rich and for anybody else, if this is the problem, it not only has the potential of damaging the alternator but it can also damage your starter motor.

[Graeme]

So check for voltage difference between the block and the chassis too, again with a load on the alternator.

[drivesafe]

So check for voltage difference between the block and the chassis too, again with a load on the alternator.

Hi Graeme and unfortunately NO.

you need to get a visual of the actual bond situation because the earth return can actually be via a different course all together.

This was a problem many years ago, where the earth cable was frayed or even missing and the earth return was via the starter motor or gear box mounts.

This would lead to the tips of the gear teeth being burnt and damaged and the first time I heard about it I was sure it was a truck load of horse do-do, but after I was told by people who were well aware of the problem that it was fact, and I got an education.

The problem sort of went away with better earth straps being used but this problem is starting to reappear because of the hugh current draw most new vehicles, particularly 4x4s, need just to operate their day to day electronics and such.

So in this case, a visual is needed.

[Graeme]

I would still expect to see a small potential difference due to the less than perfect earth path.

I chased a fault with the charging on my RRC and found it because of less than a 0.5V difference with headlights on, caused by an alternator mount bolt not absolutely tight which allowed corrosion to build-up over time.

I diagnosed a 2nd battery charging problem on a D2 (not mine) part of which was caused by the 2nd battery's earth being connected to the chassis instead of the body, where the earth path was via the steering box, steering box bearings, drag link ball joints, suspension ball joints, front tailshaft uni joints and sliding splines and gearbox bearings to the gearbox casing. The potential difference was almost 1V in this case. D2s don't earth the chassis.

A particular make of trucks use an alternator to which an extra earth post has been added by a 3rd-party supplier to overcome problems caused by a poor earth path between the alternator and the block that caused electrolysis in the engines. No amount of inspection would have revealed the poor earth path. BTW, the alternator manufacturer had not been aware until very recently of the fitment of their alternator to this engine nor of its modification.

However, an inspection will reveal any gross faults.

[~Rich~]

I'll spend a bit of time over the W/E looking at that Earth thanks Drivesafe & Graeme.

[~Rich~]

I still have not found a fault, I did however rechecked the Aux Yellow Top and after a week being disconnected it has dropped to about 11.4 volts.
Could this battery be dragging the Main one down when linked?

[drivesafe]

Hi Rich, and if you do not have anything connected to the Yellow Top, it should not be self discharging. An Optima can hold their charge for up to 12 months.

It sounds like the Optima MIGHT be faulty but before you consider replacing it, if you have a battery charge, take the Optima out of the D3 and charge it.

By taking it out of the D3, nothing other than the battery charger is connected to it so you guaranty nothing else is discharging it.

Once it is charged, see if it holds it’s charge over the next week.

This does not resolve the problem of your cranking battery going flat unless the SC80-LR is also faulty and you can send it to me if you want it checked.

[~Rich~]

Ok I've had the Yellow Top out of the D3 and on charge for 24hrs.
1 hr after disconnecting it was a 12.2 volts, 2 hrs latter it's at 11.8 volts. :(
I'll see what the charge is at 12hrs & 24hrs!

So my first thing it looks like is to replace that battery, then see if my problems continue.
But why is my Main battery being dragged down with it?

Thanks for the input guys. ;)

[Graeme]

But why is my Main battery being dragged down with it?
Because the SC80 is keeping the 2 connected down to a low enough voltage to cause the main battery to get too low, perhaps by design or because its not quite right.

[drivesafe]

Hi Graeme and the SC80-LR is designed to cut-out at 12.0v so if it’s cutting out at a lower voltage there is a problem with the SC80-LR.

Rich, the other thing to try is disconnect the main cable running from the cranking battery to the SC80-LR. This is easily done by separating the Anderson Power Poles near the SC80-LR.

This will turn the SC80-LR completely off and then see if your cranking battery still goes flat.

[~Rich~]

Yellow top @ 12hrs = 11.5v
@ 24hrs = 11.4v

[drivesafe]

Hi Rich and thats a bit strange.

After the initial voltage drop, I would have expected it to drop to around 10.5v, indicating a dropped cell.

It may still have some surface charge, could you try putting a load on it for a few minutes and see if it drops to 10.5v.

[bee utey]

Probably worth finding someone with another multimeter and comparing the two. 1/2 volt difference isn't uncommon with the cheap ones.

[~Rich~]

Well as most of you know I've been laid up for a while recovering from an operation. I wanted to get this issue sorted out before my op and as such I ordered a new Yellow Top which arrived 2 days prior from Optima Direct. ( I didn't see your offer Drivesafe until too late)
Unfortunately the new battery was cracked quite badly on top so I have had to get in contact with them about a replacement. :mad:

I've left the Traxide link between the existing batteries disconnected so I guess I will see in about another 3 weeks time if my starting battery has discharged much.

Time will tell.

[atr]

Hi,

I've got a similar situation to that posted originally:
1. Flat battery one morning. Jump started and car driven for 10 minutes. Restarted no problems.
2. A couple of days later after numerous trips of varying lengths, flat battery requiring jump start again.
3. Battery recharged overnight by CTEK XS7000 recharger, indicating not discharged at all, just needing a slight 'Absorption' charge.
4. Battery reinstalled and started well. Then, about an hour later was very sluggish to start.
Getting error messsages 'special programs not available'. I was tempted to buy a Traxide dual battery system and a Optima D34 battery, but now not so sure.

2008 TDV6 SE

[drivesafe]

Getting error messsages 'special programs not available'.

Hi atr, the problem in many of these cases is usually the Calcium/Calcium ( Ca/Ca ) cranking battery.

Unlike conventional flooded wet cell batteries, where they are good one day and dead the next, Ca/Ca batteries tend to die slowly and cause a number of unrelated problems until they finally give up the ghost.

Add to this the additional problem that a standard load test carried out on a failing Ca/Ca battery does not show a problem until the battery is near totally stuffed.

When the vehicle has one of my kits fitted, because of the way the SC80 works it can cause the failing battery to take longer to become apparent.

This is not the case in Rich’s case.

Whereas in your case, with the fault messages being displayed, one thing that has become VERY apparent, is the instant one of my kits are fitted, a number of different program fault messages no longer appear and this only occurs with the SC80 and not with other isolators.

Whether this is a good thing or not is up to the owner of the vehicle to decide but, not one person who had the messages displayed before the SC80 was fitted, has reported having any problems after the SC80 was fitted.

Again, while the way the SC80 works can disguises a failing cranking battery, all cranking batteries will eventually fail and one thing that is unique to the use of an SC80 is that most owners find they get a far better than average life spans out of both their auxiliary battery and their cranking battery.

This is not what is happening with Rich’s situation where there seems to be problems with both batteries, and this may very well be caused by his specific SC80-LR being faulty and this will or will not be ruled out as rich tests, but the designed operation of the SC80, after 20 years of use, is not only sound, but as it is in use in more than one thousand D3s world wide, if there was a specific problem unique to installing SC80s in D3s, it would have shown up way before now.

[Wilbur]

Hi,

I've got a similar situation to that posted originally:
1. Flat battery one morning. Jump started and car driven for 10 minutes. Restarted no problems.
2. A couple of days later after numerous trips of varying lengths, flat battery requiring jump start again.
3. Battery recharged overnight by CTEK XS7000 recharger, indicating not discharged at all, just needing a slight 'Absorption' charge.
4. Battery reinstalled and started well. Then, about an hour later was very sluggish to start.
Getting error messsages 'special programs not available'. I was tempted to buy a Traxide dual battery system and a Optima D34 battery, but now not so sure.

2008 TDV6 SE

A dual battery system can help when you have the main battery fail. Many dual battery systems have an over-ride switch that can allow the car to be started from the auxiliary battery. When you are in the middle of no-where, this can be a comforting thought.

Not all dual battery systems drain the starting battery - Redarc for example doesn't - and it does have the over-ride facility. It is currently on ebay for $88. SBI12 redarc DUAL BATTERY SYSTEM ISOLATOR SUIT 4X4 4WD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SBI12-redarc-DUAL-BATTERY-SYSTEM-ISOLATOR-SUIT-4X4-4WD-/220802440992?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3368d9df20)

I personally think that DC to DC convertors are the best way to go, though that is not a popular view on this forum. They are significantly more expensive, but over some years in my experience they pay for themselves with longer battery and alternator life.

As to your battery problem, as Drivesafe implies, it certainly sounds as though your main battery is shot. The C-tek is a multi-stage charger, so if the battery draws insufficient power, the C-tek will assume it is part charged and go into absorption mode. 2008 model - will your battery be under warranty?

Cheers,

Paul

[drivesafe]

Actually Wilbur, the way an SC80 ( SC80-LR ) works means it is far gentler on batteries than either a standard isolator or a DC-DC device.

So both Rich’s and atr’s batteries are going to last long when an SC80 is used than when either of your suggestions are used.

[Wilbur]

Actually Wilbur, the way an SC80 ( SC80-LR ) works means it is far gentler on batteries than either a standard isolator or a DC-DC device.

So both Rich’s and atr’s batteries are going to last long when an SC80 is used than when either of your suggestions are used.

Hi Drivesafe,

I understood that the more often an automotive battery was charged and discharged, the shorter its life became. (See http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/DCseriesbrochures.pdf ) Am I wrong in this?

I understood that the Traxide unit would discharge the car battery down to 12 volts when there was an auxiliary load. Am I wrong in this?

I understood therefore that the battrey life would be shortened by this increased number of charge/discharge cycles. Am I wrong in this?

I also understood that the Traxide unit would draw it's operating current from the car battery whenever the car battery voltage was above 12volts, regradless of whether there was an auxiliary load, or even an auxiliary battery connected. I couldn't find specs on this current on the Traxide website, but I would guess it would be low but significant. Am I wrong in this?

I know the Traxide unit gives great benefit in increasing the amount of power that can be used from the auxiliary battery by supplementing it with power from the car battery, but would that not give a trade-off in shorter car battery life?

Cheers,

Paul

[drivesafe]

Wilbur you are hell bent to trying to make out you know something about a field you quite obviously know nothing about.

And your last posts either confirms that you haven’t got a clue or it shows you will use any half truth or lie in a vain attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

Does cycling a cranking battery down to 50% shorten it’s life, YES but only if you cycle the cranking battery down to 50% SoC EVERYDAY.

The average cranking battery can be cycled down to 50% SoC about 400 to 500 time before it starts to have an effect on the battery’s life span. A Calcium/Calcium type cranking battery has an even higher number of cycle rates before the battery starts the loose capacity.

So Wilbur, while you might cycle YOUR cranking battery down to 50% every night and then charge it everyday, and as such, you can expect your battery to have no more than a 1 to 1.5 year life span.

But for the rest of us, where the battery would be lucky if it was cycled down to 50% SoC 50 time a year, AT THE VERY MOST, then we can only expect our cranking batteries to last about 8 to 10 years.

But hang on a minute, the average natural life span of a cranking battery is only 2 to 4 years and as many D3 owners, with one of my SC80-LRs fitted, are getting 5+ years out of their cranking batteries, so Wilbur can you explain why they are getting such longer life spans if you reckon they will damage their cranking battery?

Another one of your many ill-informed theories shot down.

BY the way Wilbur, if you don’t believe what I have posted, have a look at the same link you have just posted. The cycle rates are in that too.

[Wilbur]

Wilbur you are hell bent to trying to make out you know something about a field you quite obviously know nothing about.

And your last posts either confirms that you haven’t got a clue or it shows you will use any half truth or lie in a vain attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

Does cycling a cranking battery down to 50% shorten it’s life, YES but only if you cycle the cranking battery down to 50% SoC EVERYDAY.

The average cranking battery can be cycled down to 50% SoC about 400 to 500 time before it starts to have an effect on the battery’s life span. A Calcium/Calcium type cranking battery has an even higher number of cycle rates before the battery starts the loose capacity.

So Wilbur, while you might cycle YOUR cranking battery down to 50% every night and then charge it everyday, and as such, you can expect your battery to have no more than a 1 to 1.5 year life span.

But for the rest of us, where the battery would be lucky if it was cycled down to 50% SoC 50 time a year, AT THE VERY MOST, then we can only expect our cranking batteries to last about 8 to 10 years.

But hang on a minute, the average natural life span of a cranking battery is only 2 to 4 years and as many D3 owners, with one of my SC80-LRs fitted, are getting 5+ years out of their cranking batteries, so Wilbur can you explain why they are getting such longer life spans if you reckon they will damage their cranking battery?

Another one of your many ill-informed theories shot down.

BY the way Wilbur, if you don’t believe what I have posted, have a look at the same link you have just posted. The cycle rates are in that too.

Please Drivesafe, I am NOT telling half-truths or lying, and I have no fight with you or your product. There are some drivers who may not like their car battery to be discharged while using auxiliary equipment, and all I am trying to do is to point out that there are options that don't discharge the main car battery.

As to your last point, yes, I did look at the Fullriver data I posted, and it shows clearly that their batteries will accept over 1500 charge/discharge cycles at 30% depth of discharge and only 700 cycles at 50% discharge. That is why I couldn't understand your claim that the Traxide system made the car battery last longer. If you can explain that in a technically robust sense, I will of course be happy to acknowledge same.

Let's keep all this friendly this time. It is an interesting topic, and one that is relevant to probably most Land Rover owners. I think it is a good thing that all options are available to owners for consideration.

Cheers,

Paul

[~Rich~]

Settle guys please!

Drivesafe I tested my main battery after the car has not been used for 2 weeks.
It was down from 12.3v to 11.9v but it was enough to start the car but with some faults showing and then disappearing. ( Special Programs unavailable)
The main battery was not linked to the Traxide system.

[drivesafe]

Settle guys please!

Drivesafe I tested my main battery after the car has not been used for 2 weeks.
It was down from 12.3v to 11.9v but it was enough to start the car but with some faults showing and then disappearing. ( Special Programs unavailable)
The main battery was not linked to the Traxide system.

Hi Rich, those voltages can mean anything but I suspect when you last measured your cranking battery, your battery probably had some surface voltage.

With the long break, the battery has settled and you got a more accurate voltage measure just before you started the D3.

The fact the battery has not discharged points more to having a problem with your SC80-LR control module.


If your new Yellow Top has not arrived yet, do you want to send me your SC80-LR to check it out or do you want to wait and see what happens with your set up once the new battery arrive.

If you are not in a hurry, I would prefer you hook up your existing set up and see what happens first.

I’ll leave it you to you.

Cheers, Tim.

[~Rich~]

I'm awaiting the Optima rep to get back to me re the replacement battery, I've got a month before I'm allowed to drive following my operation 2 weeks ago so I'm probably better off actually sending you the controller to inspect for me as I can't drive around to test the system myself.
Does that seem Ok to you Tim?

[drivesafe]

Just post it off to me and I’ll test it and let you know what I find.

If it proves to be fault, I’ll get a new one off to you and if I can’t find anything wrong, I’ll send it back so you can see whether it is the problem or whether it was the batteries.

[atr]

Hi all

I've had the original battery replaced with another genuine LR battery and the problems have disappeared, so now I would be happy to proceed with a dual battery setup. Previously I was not willing to introduce a dual battery setup into a suspect electrical system.

2008 TDV6 SE

[~Rich~]

Hi all,
Thanks Tim for checking over my Traxide controller box for faults, which it came up clear of.
While I was having my front air suspension valve block replaced I explained my voltage issues to my mechanic. They dropped my car off to an auto electrician to look for the fault they had the car for 2 nights and found that the Amp was somehow staying on and the info screen was also taking a long time to go off.
My mechanic then updated the software to 5 modules which fixed these issues and so far all seems good again.
I also think that it was also that the Optima second battery was contributing as it was not holding charge and I have replaced this battery.

Another interesting thing I found was the "Hidden diagnostic screen" has a self test option which runs a live test where ever the key is positioned.
My screen would quickly fill up with 40 + items.
I thought this must be normal but since the software updates nothing comes up!
My mechanic explained this a being software unused tails that where simply not removed whilst the programs where set.
In the latter versions these have been cleaned up so they do not occur any more.
Technology! ;)

[Mike&Loz]

2005 TDV6 HSE, 134,000 kms, that 750 is my work day week total for 5 days @ 150.
The problem has shown up months after the Alternator replacement and approx 1 yr after the battery was replaced. Both failed seperately.

This has started happening to us recently as well. Well not "us" as I haven't had it happen to me but SWMBO has had it occur twice now in the past week. We have the same model spec and eerily about the same kilometreage, is that a word? We've only had the car a few weeks and looking back over the docs it had the alternator replaced about a year ago. Has the a Sidewinder dual battery system (isolator but nothing inside the cabin) with the same auxiliary battery.

The first time it happened was about a week ago. She had driven the car through the day and parked in the driveway. A couple of hours later it was a no go and came up with the "Transmission Fault" error message and wouldn't turn over. I left it overnight and tried again in the morning and there was no change including the error message. A call to LR and a chat with the service dept was met with "You need to have it transported in for further analysis." I was pretty sure Ned Kelly would greet me at the door so I rang Lifestyle 4WD here in Perth and they said to try a jump start first and then if that doesn't work to "have it towed". I tried paralleling the auxiliary battery with the same result.

Jump start from the Triton worked fine and no problem until yesterday. Missus drove it up to the school and then rang me to say it wouldn't start again. Now this is only a 10 minute drive with wait time of about 5 minutes for the grandkids to get sown to the car so there was no long overnight sub-zero wait between stop and restart. A quick trip and jump start and away we go. Started fine this morning as well.

Loz is vertically challenged so the seat would be in different position and that is about the only difference.

Check the alternator output and it pumps out 14.6V. :question:

Regards

Mike

[Wilbur]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/133707-alternator-failure-without-warning-can-anything-else.html

[drivesafe]

Jump start from the Triton worked fine and no problem until yesterday. Missus drove it up to the school and then rang me to say it wouldn't start again. Now this is only a 10 minute drive with wait time of about 5 minutes for the grandkids to get sown to the car so there was no long overnight sub-zero wait between stop and restart. A quick trip and jump start and away we go. Started fine this morning as well.


Hi Mike, are you doing lots of short trips or are you driving for more than 20 minutes at a time on most trips?

[ADMIRAL]

Hi Mike& Loz,

I had the same problem, and after discussing it with Tim ( Drivesafe ) accepted that my wife does not drive it for long enough each day. ( hence Tim's question about how long you drive it for ) Mine averages probably 10-15 minutes per trip. If it then sits in the garage over the weekend, there is good chance the battery will eventually not have had sufficient charge. I use a good smart charger every second week, to belt the main battery up. No more problems.

[Mike&Loz]

Hi Mike, are you doing lots of short trips or are you driving for more than 20 minutes at a time on most trips?

Loz only drives it occasionally but it is the "family car" now and since we are both retired we don't do the daily grind too and from work. Generally the trips are just down to the local shops about 10 mins each way, the school about the same or to the major shopping centre about 20 mins each way. But as we both do the driving on different days it just seemed strange, or just plain bad luck, that it has happened only to her.

I checked out the batteries and whomever installed them has not indicated when they were purchased or installed so they could have been in there for the last 3 or 4 years. I'm going to put it into Lifestyle 4WD here in Perth to completely check it over in case some of the mods were done someone not quite up to speed but I can't do that until their mechanic gets back in a week or two.

It's a bit of a worry if it can't sit in the garage for several and not be able start afterwards. The Triton sometimes sits for a couple of weeks and kicks over first time with a 3 year old battery. I'll go through each of the posts in this thread and check out what I can first though.

Just hope I haven't bought a lemon that's going to stitch me up for more than I can afford just to keep it running.

Mike

[drivesafe]

Just hope I haven't bought a lemon that's going to stitch me up for more than I can afford just to keep it running.

Hi Mike and no it doesn’t sound like you have bought a lemon.

It sounds like your Landy is suffering from "Shopping Trolley Syndrome", where you are just not driving it enough to fully “replace” the amount of power used both while starting and, something most people are not aware of, the amount of power your Landy uses when shutting down.

You can use a digital multi meter to do some simple tests to see if you are charging the battery or if it’s continually being under charged.

If you want to keep an idea of how your battery is holding up, let me know and rather than hijack Rich’s thread, I start a separate one.

[Mike&Loz]

Hi Mike and no it doesn’t sound like you have bought a lemon.

You can use a digital multi meter to do some simple tests to see if you are charging the battery or if it’s continually being under charged.

If you want to keep an idea of how your battery is holding up, let me know and rather than hijack Rich’s thread, I start a separate one.

Thanks Drivesafe. Very interested in doing some of the tests myself so I would appreciate any help in that area. I've got a DVM and used it to check the alternator output voltage, 14.6V, the first time it happened. I've got a clamp meter somewhere but they are only useful for AC measurements.

[Wilbur]

Thanks Drivesafe. Very interested in doing some of the tests myself so I would appreciate any help in that area. I've got a DVM and used it to check the alternator output voltage, 14.6V, the first time it happened. I've got a clamp meter somewhere but they are only useful for AC measurements.

Altronics do an AC/DC clampmeter - very, very useful.

Altronics - Your One Stop Audio Visual & Electronics Supplier (http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=Q0966)

[Mike&Loz]

Altronics do an AC/DC clampmeter - very, very useful.

Altronics - Your One Stop Audio Visual & Electronics Supplier (http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=Q0966)

Thanks Wilbur. I am sort of at a loss as to how a clamp meter would measure DC current. My understanding is that it measures AC due to the EM flux expanding and contracting and cutting the inductive coil in the "clamp" and therefore measuring the current. Still I am not up to speed with all the latest technology so it might just be possible.

Mike

[bee utey]

Thanks Wilbur. I am sort of at a loss as to how a clamp meter would measure DC current. My understanding is that it measures AC due to the EM flux expanding and contracting and cutting the inductive coil in the "clamp" and therefore measuring the current. Still I am not up to speed with all the latest technology so it might just be possible.

Mike

Hi Mike
DC clamp meters measure direct current using a magnetic hall effect sensor. I bought one but its not very accurate at low currents as any stray field can set them off. Good for current changes though.

[Wilbur]

Thanks Wilbur. I am sort of at a loss as to how a clamp meter would measure DC current. My understanding is that it measures AC due to the EM flux expanding and contracting and cutting the inductive coil in the "clamp" and therefore measuring the current. Still I am not up to speed with all the latest technology so it might just be possible.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Bee Utey is right, they use a hall effect device which measures static (DC) magnetic field strength. As he says, they are not terribly accurate but still very useful.

I think you will find your battery is on the way out. A good battery will likely take 50+ amps from the alternator when a bit discharged, so ten minutes driving puts in about 8~10 amp/hours. That should be enough to make up for the small static drain while the car is idle for a few days.

A failing battery will only take a few amps from the alternator so that 10 minutes driving may only put 1 or 2 amp/hours into the battery, not enough to make up for a couple of days of static drain.

Cheers,

Paul

[drivesafe]

Mike, as soon as I have the time to set out a few test for you, I’ll post them up so you can see whats happening with your battery(s).

BTW you don’t need a clamp meter to test if your battery is good or not but you do need time because Calcium/Calcium batteries are a little tricky to test.

Wilbur, a good cranking battery, even when in a half discharged state will NOT draw anything like 50 amps and a fully charged cranking battery will only pull a few amps after the motor starts and the energy used to start the motor is replaced.

[Wilbur]

Wilbur, a good cranking battery, even when in a half discharged state will NOT draw anything like 50 amps....

Mine does.... 2011 D4, original battery.

[drivesafe]

And how did you measure the voltage and the current?

[Wilbur]

And how did you measure the voltage?

I didn't measure the voltage, I measured the current (there is a difference) with my DC clamp meter which I had previously calibrated against a Fluke 19 Digital multimeter.

[drivesafe]

You still didn’t answer the question, one would hope you used some form of map meter, but where did you get your reading from?

[Mike&Loz]

Mike, as soon as I have the time to set out a few test for you, I’ll post them up so you can see whats happening with your battery(s).

Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

[drivesafe]

I didn't measure the voltage, I measured the current (there is a difference) with my DC clamp meter which I had previously calibrated against a Fluke 19 Digital multimeter.

You still didn’t answer the question, one would hope you used some form of map meter, but where did you get your reading from?

Well folks, while wilbur is scratching his head, trying to work out if it’s a trick question or not, a 50 amp reading is about what I would expect.

I often get as much as 47 amps readings and wilbur,s 50 amp reading confirms my claim that the cranking battery only draws a few amps while replacing the energy it supplied for starting the vehicle.

What good old wilbur has done, is measured the amps in the cable running from the alternator to the battery, and for DIYer or the likes, this would be seen as a normal way to get a reading.

The problem is that this location does not give the battery current draw, it gives you the total vehicle current draw.

When the motor is started, you have the compressor pulling up to 20 amps, the fuel pump and normal vehicle electronics will pull around another 20 amps. Not much left being pulled by the battery.

The only way to check how much current is being pulled by the battery after starting, is to first remove the positive terminal from the cranking battery.

Then you need to make up a short but thick bridging cable ( 35mm2 ) and bolt bridging cable between the battery’s positive terminal and the battery’s positive clamp.

You can now get an exact current reading for the battery.

[Mike&Loz]

Hi Mike
DC clamp meters measure direct current using a magnetic hall effect sensor. I bought one but its not very accurate at low currents as any stray field can set them off. Good for current changes though.

Yep, completely forgot about Hall Effect and I used to teach it. Must have put that brain cell to sleep. :D

[Wilbur]

Well folks, while wilbur is scratching his head, trying to work out if it’s a trick question or not, a 50 amp reading is about what I would expect.

I often get as much as 47 amps readings and wilbur,s 50 amp reading confirms my claim that the cranking battery only draws a few amps while replacing the energy it supplied for starting the vehicle.

What good old wilbur has done, is measured the amps in the cable running from the alternator to the battery, and for DIYer or the likes, this would be seen as a normal way to get a reading.

The problem is that this location does not give the battery current draw, it gives you the total vehicle current draw.

When the motor is started, you have the compressor pulling up to 20 amps, the fuel pump and normal vehicle electronics will pull around another 20 amps. Not much left being pulled by the battery.

The only way to check how much current is being pulled by the battery after starting, is to first remove the positive terminal from the cranking battery.

Then you need to make up a short but thick bridging cable ( 35mm2 ) and bolt bridging cable between the battery’s positive terminal and the battery’s positive clamp.

You can now get an exact current reading for the battery.

Nonsense. I said I used a clamp meter and I simply put it on the battery negative lead close to the battery. Foolproof and correct.

Drivesafe, if you don't stop picking on everything I post, and stop making bull**** claims that I have done this or done that, I will tell everone on this site how much current your Traxide unit takes from the battery, 24/7 until the battery(s) is half flat. I will advise them that this current is drawn REGARDLESS of whether there is any load on the auxiliary battery, or even if there IS an auxiliary battery.

[drivesafe]

Wilbur, your obviously getting some help, because you sure as hell couldn’t work that one out by yourself.

For the benefit of everyone else, the SC80-LR draws 280ma while on and less than 15ma when isolated.

Thats less than 7 amps a day or at least a week before the isolator turns off and the cranking battery is still at 50% SoC. Which is heaps enough to start any vehicle.

Now add the fact that most will have an auxiliary battery and now it’s 2 week, WITHOUT STARTING THE MOTOR at any time during that 2 weeks, before the SC80-LR isolates.

Now as there are over a thousand D3s and quite a few D4s and not only does my SC80-LR work better than any other DBS, it actually improves the operations of the D3 and D4.

None of your suggestions do!

SO WHATS YOUR POINT?

[Wilbur]

Wilbur, your obviously getting some help, because you sure as hell couldn’t work that one out by yourself.

I don't need any help. I told you, I am an electronic engineer.


For the benefit of everyone else, the SC80-LR draws 280ma while on and less than 15ma when isolated.

Thats less than 7 amps a day or at least a week before the isolator turns off and the cranking battery is still at 50% SoC. Which is heaps enough to start any vehicle.Seven amp-hours a day....seven amp-hours a day... seven amp-hours a day... WOW!!!

... and that is on top of anything the car and it's systems use!!

My Alpine car radio draws 270mA at low-moderate volume. Having a Traxide is just like leaving your radio on all the time. Clever, that.




SO WHATS YOUR POINT?Drivesafe, a deal. You stop picking on everything I post, and I promise not to mention Traxide. But I do want the right to offer technical advice without you heaping abuse at me.

[drivesafe]

I don't need any help. I told you, I am an electronic engineer.

First off, it’s an electronic"S" engineer, but then again, you might be correct and your nothing more than a piece of electronic junk!


Drivesafe, a deal. You stop picking on everything I post, and I promise not to mention Traxide. But I do want the right to offer technical advice without you heaping abuse at me.

Why wilbur, your not going to stop lying so why should I stop warning readers about your crap.

Last but not least, you originally posted up a load of bollocks but when you were corrected, you got your nose out of joint and have done nothing but try to make out your an expert in a field you quite obviously don’t have a clew about in an attempt to discredit my gear.

Sorry to disappoint you but every time you have one of your rants, more people learn about my gear, so thanks for the advertising.

Your biggest single problem wilbur ( besides your mouth ) is that not once have you post up a single bit of credible evidence to back ANY of your hysterical claims.

While on the other hand I have thousands of satisfied customers. I wouldn’t still be in business if I lied to my customers the way you post up lies here.

[Wilbur]

Sorry to disappoint you but every time you have one of your rants, more people learn about my gear, so thanks for the advertising.

So hurling abuse at me hasn't shut me up, and you think that you can shut me up by telling me that I am helping sell your product?

Desperate.....

[drivesafe]

I don’t care if you shut up or not and contrary to the garbage you keep posting up, which is of no benefit to anyone, but the time I'm spending correcting your rubbish is of benefit to those wanting to know more about the how their vehicle’s electrics really work.

BTW if you are an electronic”S” engineer, why do you not know there is a difference between a voltage surge and a voltage spike. You sure as hell didn’t learn much in your “electronic” school.

[outasight]

For the benefit of everyone else, the SC80-LR draws 280ma while on and less than 15ma when isolated.


Hi Tim,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "while on" and "when isolated".
Under what conditions does the SC80-LR behave in those two states?
At this point of my understanding it seems like the obvious question is "Would it not be beneficial to have an ignition powered relay to put it into "isolation" when the engine(ignition) is off?'

Regards,

Les.

[outasight]

Seven amp-hours a day....seven amp-hours a day... seven amp-hours a day... WOW!!!


You quoted Tim saying 7 Amps a day(that's 7A derived from 280mA x 24hrs).

So where & how do you suddenly get 7AH(7 Amp Hours) from? You do understand the difference between plain Amps & Amp Hours don't you?

Regards,

Les.(A lowly Advanced ElectronicS Certificate holder ... :cool:)

[Tombie]

The SC80 is more than just a simple isolator.
It can keep the 2 batteries linked for longer utilizing some of the power from the main battery to enhance the aux battery life.
At a certain cut off it then isolates both.

Being an intelligent unit it will draw a tiny current for the monitoring functions.
The opposition products also do this, at what current I don't know.

Using a relay would waste the benefits of the SC80.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Tombie]

Les,

Wilbur is always trolling and was proven wrong by Drivesafe and has a bug up his arse over it...

Cheers

(Former ATC/ATWL - R.A.N)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[drivesafe]

Hi Tim,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "while on" and "when isolated".
Under what conditions does the SC80-LR behave in those two states?
At this point of my understanding it seems like the obvious question is "Would it not be beneficial to have an ignition powered relay to put it into "isolation" when the engine(ignition) is off?'

Regards,

Les.

Hi and thanks Tomie.

Hi Les, and continuing on from Tomie's post, most isolators cut-in ( turn on ) when the motor is started and cut-out or isolate ( turn off ) when the motor is turned off or shortly there after.

While the SC80 and SC80-LR on like other isolators, they do not isolate the cranking battery form the other batteries until the common voltage of all the batteries reach 12.0v ( 50% SoC ).

All cranking batteries have a huge reserve of unused capacity and the SC80 and SC80-LR use this cranking battery capacity to extend the operating time of accessories running off your auxiliary battery(s).

Because all vehicles can be started from a battery with 11.75v and most can be started with cranking battery voltages down as low as 11.5v so there is still heaps of power left to start a vehicle.

The SC80 has been working in this way for over 20 years and while the initial intention was to make use of the unused capacity of the cranking battery, there is a whole range of advantages in the way the SC80 works over how other isolators work.

One primary advantage is that because your alternator can charge two ( or more ) batteries at the same time, the SC80 means you replace far more used battery capacity in a short drive time than any other DBS can do.

Another is that because you are spreading the load over two batteries, by halving the load, you are not as harsh on the two batteries as you would need to be when you only use one and this means your batteries will have a longer life.

There are quite a few other advantages but this will give you the basics and more importantly, I’ve highjacked Rich’s thread and it’s time to give it back to him.

Sorry for all diversions Rich.

[Wilbur]

Les,

Wilbur is always trolling and was proven wrong by Drivesafe and has a bug up his arse over it...

Cheers

(Former ATC/ATWL - R.A.N)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Nonsense Tombie, Drivesafe CLAIMED I was wrong, he did not PROVE it. There is a difference.

I admire the loyalty you all show to Drivesafe and I know I become a pariah for daring to question his product. That doesn't take away the truth of what I post, and if Drivesafe and Blknight hadn't attacked me so visciously when I first posted, I probably would never have been following posts on this subject.

Anyway, now there are more facts available about how the Traxide unit works, so that any of you with an open mind can make a fair judgement. Those with closed minds should ask yourselves why Drivesafe nees to defend his product so violently, and why he hasn't posted full details of his product on his website.

Oh and outasight, 7 amp/hours is the correct terminolgy. 7 amps is meaningless in this context.

[bee utey]

Sorry Wilbur, A/h isn't correct either. It is AMP-HOURS or Ah, a product of amps times hours. An electronic person should know that.

[incisor]

okay, i have just about had a gut full of this!

if you pair want to continually try to screw each other over i suggest you go get a room somewhere and have it out like men.

i am sick to death, and so are many of the users here, of being subjected to it on a continuing basis.

wilbur, sorry, i don't know you from a bar of soap, but to be frank, you are making your self look like an utter goose in some of these posts, i don't know how else to put it. the 7amp hour post is a prime example

tim, it isn't anything approaching a professional look, your doing yourself more harm than good trying to reason with someone that clearly has an agenda, be they right or wrong.

several posts by BOTH of you, either breach or come very close to breaching the terms and conditions of access of this place.

this is a notice to cease and desist or i will take action.

this is the last warning

anything deemed a personal attack by myself or the moderators will incur an infraction which may see you banned for a period.

i don't want to see this occur to anyone, but i will not hesitate if it continues.

You would BOTH be well advised to put each other on your ignore list.