F111 fighters stripped and scrapped

[pfillery]

Saw on the news last night that all the retired F111 (with the exception of 5 of them) are being torn apart and scrapped at Amberley. Not sure how many tonnes of ally on an F111 but at 60cents a kilo or so, who wouldn't chip in for a great garden ornament?

Not sure why they wouldn't sell them like the old Migs to collectors and enthusiasts, and why they need the US to give permission to keep them? Will cost over $1million per aircraft to make them "safe" for display, what about donating them as is or for scrap prices to RSL or other interested parties like they did with the retired tanks, seems like such a waste.

If it was worth $5k in scrap I'd buy one. Park it in the front yard and intimidate the neighbours!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

AFAIK, its because the USA gave them to us,,,

interesting you saying that 5 are NOT to be scrapped,,,

am quite happy to pay the 5 mill if we get to display them publically,,

[fatcat]

that would be so cool to have one for 5 grand, i would rig the play station up and play air combat. The kids would love it.

[VladTepes]

You can read about QAM's efforts to obtain one here:
QAM - F-111 (http://qam.com.au/aircraft/f-111/most-faq.htm)

and PLEASE sign the petition.

[JDNSW]

........, and why they need the US to give permission to keep them? ........

They were designed as a nuclear capable delivery system, and this was one of the conditions of the sale. I can not imagine, however, that this permission would not be forthcoming. But worth noting that there is no current aircraft with the same capabilities, and it is likely that they have some structural or system details that are still secret.

John

[85 county]

well look what the poms did with a couple of mothballed Vs

[Bushie]

AFAIK, its because the USA gave them to us,,,




I seem to remember a LOT of money was paid for this gift :o:o:eek:


Martyn

[VladTepes]

They were designed as a nuclear capable delivery system, and this was one of the conditions of the sale. I can not imagine, however, that this permission would not be forthcoming. But worth noting that there is no current aircraft with the same capabilities, and it is likely that they have some structural or system details that are still secret.

John


The -G's are nuclear capable (or were, at any rate) not the -C's.

The USA would be very unlikely to make exceptions on that sort of thing as they won;t want to set any sort of precedent.

Aust Government stated reason include asbestos risk... so I guess there musn't be an asbestos brake pads on those land rovers they got rid of eh ?

[drowell]

There's a lot of history to these stunning aircraft. I'd give my right nut for a ride in one. I'd kill for one in my front yard!
They were on a hiding to nowhere when the SAC and USN were told to come up with a single aircraft. They deliberately put up specs that meant no single aircraft wold ever work - still the Grumman F111 did the job. The most exciting aircraft ever built.
Got to stand inside the bomb bay of one once (with a RAAF mate) before the guy with the guard dog arrived and ordered us to move away.
Gotta love the TFR.
I have a book called Flight of the Pig...a fantastic book of the history of the F111 in the RAAF.

[3toes]

It has been a standard clause in all USA defence equipment contracts going back many decades that they retain the right to decide what happens to the kit once the purchaser has finished with it.

They never used to be concerned with it except in special circumstances however over the last decade USA government have become very active in enforcing this clause.

There is a very active (paranoid) USA government department which now exists just to enforce this. If you can obtain permission to keep the kit the associated paper work goes on as they can say where you keep it and what you can do with it.

Is now enough of a problem that the Canadian government has a clause in their latest naval contracts that USA sourced kit is only to be specified where there is no non USA equilivant available.

[JDNSW]

The -G's are nuclear capable (or were, at any rate) not the -C's.

The USA would be very unlikely to make exceptions on that sort of thing as they won;t want to set any sort of precedent.

Aust Government stated reason include asbestos risk... so I guess there musn't be an asbestos brake pads on those land rovers they got rid of eh ?

I don't think it makes any difference whether it is a -G or -C; That is why this clause was in the contract. I think the US would approve any approach by the Australian government - but the Australian government is very unlikely to use any of its political capital with the USA on this; as far as politicians are concerned it is simply unimportant.

Asbestos risk is simply an excuse. It applies to virtually anything of that vintage! And would be pretty minor anyway, compared to most WW2 aircraft/vehicles.

John

[pfillery]

I seem to remember a LOT of money was paid for this gift :o:o:eek:


Martyn

Not to mention the billions spent upgrading and keeping them going for 30 years! To rip them up and scrap them is just the same as pushing jeeps and tanks off the side of ships rather than bring them home after WW2 etc. Such a waste!

[solmanic]

Saw on the news last night that all the retired F111 (with the exception of 5 of them) are being torn apart and scrapped at Amberley. Not sure how many tonnes of ally on an F111 but at 60cents a kilo or so, who wouldn't chip in for a great garden ornament?...If it was worth $5k in scrap I'd buy one. Park it in the front yard and intimidate the neighbours!

Reminds me of this classic Jeremy Clarkson moment... clipping from Wikipedia

His known passion for single- or two-passenger high-velocity transport led to his brief acquisition of an English Electric Lightning F1A fighter XM172, which was installed in the front garden of his country home. The Lightning was subsequently removed on the orders of the local council, which "wouldn't believe my claim that it was a leaf blower", according to Clarkson on a Tiscali Motoring webchat.

[85 county]

Not to mention the billions spent upgrading and keeping them going for 30 years! To rip them up and scrap them is just the same as pushing jeeps and tanks off the side of ships rather than bring them home after WW2 etc. Such a waste!

Most of the F111 are not that old. We got a free Bunch when our neighbor was looking hard at our back yard. A sort of sorry from the US after they had agreed to sell them a bunch of F18 or F16? and the factory to build them. which they latter backed out of.

personally, yes it seems a waste but the millions spent is much cheaper than learning to eat rice and speak a different language while living under a forren dictator.

they did there job, but a few for the museums should be the way.

[85 county]

I seem to remember a LOT of money was paid for this gift :o:o:eek:


Martyn

or is it? A lot of money was paid for our defence?

[85 county]

I don't think it makes any difference whether it is a -G or -C; That is why this clause was in the contract. I think the US would approve any approach by the Australian government - but the Australian government is very unlikely to use any of its political capital with the USA on this; as far as politicians are concerned it is simply unimportant.

Asbestos risk is simply an excuse. It applies to virtually anything of that vintage! And would be pretty minor anyway, compared to most WW2 aircraft/vehicles.

John

I think you will fined the yanks all paranoid about this.
As I posted earlier look at what the poms did and how long it took them to get a couple of Vulcan’s out of museums and bombing a runway 8000 klms away.
secondly they feel that there past leniency was a bused a bit. Things like RNZAF still flying mustangs until some yank came for a visit.
Lastly it’s what they view as a security thing. You cant even get the math’s for s P51 wing ( or a spitfire for that matter) its just there way, illogical as it may seem.

[VladTepes]

You cant even get the math’s for s P51 wing ( or a spitfire for that matter) its just there way, illogical as it may seem.

Um, what ?
You can get complete plans for one if you so desire.

[85 county]

Um, what ?
You can get complete plans for one if you so desire.

Yes you can, which someone has reproduced from a wing. But you can not get originals

[JDNSW]

I think you will fined the yanks all paranoid about this.
As I posted earlier look at what the poms did and how long it took them to get a couple of Vulcan’s out of museums and bombing a runway 8000 klms away.
secondly they feel that there past leniency was a bused a bit. Things like RNZAF still flying mustangs until some yank came for a visit.
Lastly it’s what they view as a security thing. You cant even get the math’s for s P51 wing ( or a spitfire for that matter) its just there way, illogical as it may seem.

Along those lines, the technology put forward by Captain Cochrane for a chemical warfare attack on the port of Brest in 1813 was only declassified in the 1960s......

But on the other hand, the basic theory behind the Atomic Bomb was published by the US government less than a month after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

John

[clubagreenie]

Yeah, you can build the bomb. But not get the plans to build the plane to delivery it.

[85 county]

Along those lines, the technology put forward by Captain Cochrane for a chemical warfare attack on the port of Brest in 1813 was only declassified in the 1960s......

But on the other hand, the basic theory behind the Atomic Bomb was published by the US government less than a month after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

John

The bomb is a bit like a jet motor
Very simple when you look at a drawing or read an explanation of how it works, but in practice it is a lot more complicated than that.

In addition getting the materials to build a bomb is not quite the DIY thing.

But then again as you said the Basic theory. What was publish amounts to the same as saying, an airplane has 2 wings a motor and a pilot sits in the middle.

I am not saying it correct but!

[JDNSW]

.......

I am not saying it correct but!

No, but I know what you mean. Knowing how the bomb works, even in considerable detail does not really help very much - in 1945, the USA was probably the only country with the economic resources to actually implement the technology (something a bit different to theory!). The Manhattan Project, which produced exactly three bombs, was the largest single industrial project ever undertaken (it may still be!). There was no chance of anyone building a bomb without duplicating a lot of the technology that was invented in that project. Today it is much easier, as some cheaper technology has been developed, but it still represents many years of work and huge investments for countries such as China, India, Pakistan (Britain and to a lesser extent France got information from the USA that cut a lot of corners - and so did the USSR, albeit not by intention of the USA).

Just to give an example of a possible reason why the USA might not want any F-111s lying about - one of the key problems that delayed production was the wing carry-through structure. The problems were finally solved with some very special metallurgy. If one continues to exist, it is possible to analyse the steel it is made from to duplicate the alloy. Something that the USA probably would prefer to keep to themselves.

News item just now - an F-111 went through Dubbo today on a truck, headed to Point Cook for display.

John

[Galoop]

when the seppos sold us the F-111s they were single seater aircraft, the australians made them into dual seaters and the eletronics were upgraded for RAAF use and a large majority of the aircraft was aussie engeneered and built, all we basily bought was the frame and chassis.
they should be spread around the country for display, whats 5 not even 1 for every state snd terratory, what a croc.
sorry getting carried away this is not 'the soapbox' section i was a loadmaster in the RAAF in the late 90s and i did a bit of work with them.
the F/A-18s are remarkable aircraft by any speck 20 years ago but as with the F-111 we bought 20yrs old at the time the aussies will make this aircraft truely our own.

[rick130]

when the seppos sold us the F-111s they were single seater aircraft, the australians made them into dual seaters and the eletronics were upgraded for RAAF use and a large majority of the aircraft was aussie engeneered and built, all we basily bought was the frame and chassis.

[snip]

All F111's have always been a pilot and nav with side by side seating, it was designed that way ;)


Design phase
The F-111A and B variants used the same airframe structural components and TF30-P-1 turbofan engines. They featured side by side crew seating in escape capsule as required by the NavyGeneral Dynamics F-111 Aardvark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-111_Aardvark)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

its special,,, ;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/05/5.jpg

[VladTepes]

when the seppos sold us the F-111s they were single seater aircraft, the australians made them into dual seaters and the eletronics were upgraded for RAAF use and a large majority of the aircraft was aussie engeneered and built, all we basily bought was the frame and chassis..

Poppycock !

[mowog]

The -G's are nuclear capable (or were, at any rate) not the -C's.

The USA would be very unlikely to make exceptions on that sort of thing as they won;t want to set any sort of precedent.

Aust Government stated reason include asbestos risk... so I guess there musn't be an asbestos brake pads on those land rovers they got rid of eh ?

The C's were delivered with the Nuclear consent panel. We had to cover the things for public display. They were later removed during an avionics update.

[mowog]

There are far greater risks in the F111 than asbestos. They have depleted uranium and beriliumn (cant spell it) both these are very toxic to people.

They also have the dubious honor of killing more of its maintainers than enemies. I think the last thing the Govt wants is civilians crawling around inside the things poisoning themselves.

Mind you it was ok for them force RAAF techo's into them to be poisoned.

I spent to many years working on the Pig to miss it. I was helicopter man in an Airforce without helicopters and ended up back in the F111 World.

I would love the chance to drive a wrecking ball into one.

[VladTepes]

I hardly think there will be too much need for civilains to be crawling around inside an F1-11's fuel tanks in a static exhibit somewhere mate. I think you are overstating the risk. In published reasons as to why they were not going to release these aircraft for display the gov't highlighted asbestos risk but I haven;t see any mention of those others - depleted uranium etc.

+1 on the fact they didn't worry about the people they forced into those fuel tanks though. Poor bastards.

[mowog]

I was one of the poor bastards forced to work in the tanks.

People have been known to do some pretty silly things in the past and it isn't hard to open the fuel tanks. Do you honestly think the Govt would publicly talk about the depleted uranium?

There are a wide range of toxic products and metals in the F111 trust me when I say asbestos is the least of the potential hazards.

F-111s Out of Service (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/pigs-mightnt-fly-again-but-thats-no-defence-20100925-15rg6.html)

[VladTepes]

There is no reason the government wouldn't advise of depleted uranium being a hazard in this context.

It's hardly a state secret if you're happy to post it on a public forum, is it !

[clubagreenie]

They're not telling you about the depleted uranium so you don't think it's a big deal but they know as much as you do that it is a big deal and need time to work out how to deal with it. So they mention asbestos because everyone freaks about that to take everyone's mind off the depleted uranium.

In the meantime while we've been worrying about asbestos and the government has been worrying about the uranium which doesn't exist some third world country with only enough knowledge about these things to be dangerous has stolen not only the uranium but the whole plane with plans they got from some government oversight committees website on how to hotwire a F-111 and are currently on the way to crash their dirty plane into the nearest target.

[dhc4ever]

Guys,
I stopped working on the F111 in late 2009, at that time there was NO depleted uranium left on the aircraft. It had all been removed during the avionics update in the late 80's early 90's.
The fuel tanks are not an issue either, once drained and vented they're just a hole. None of the chemicals used in the early deseal program are present, the sealeant is still in there, but that wont be a problem unless someone wants to eat it. Or someone gets the reverted sealeant on them.
Yes there is asbestos in the aircraft, usually incorporated into gaskets and seals.
A large amount of the time and money spent on breaking one up is the removal of the ejection system and explosive cutting lines for this throughout the airframe and removing fluids and venting tanks and cleaning and removing exotics like beryllium.
The C models came complete with nuclear capability, the wiring was still there a few years ago, the control boxes were not.
Australia had little to do with the design of the F111 while it was being conceived and built, we did how ever specify a heavy duty under carriage and a 2 ft extension to each wing, thats what differed our C model from an A model, that and a heavy duty wing carry through box(the big bit the wings attached to). WE did have some design into the avionics upgrade and after 1995 we were the design authority for these aircraft as we were the only country still flying them.

I believe there are 9 earmarked for display, or there was when I left.

Mowog, which chopper SQN were you in, 5, 9 or 12? I did 6.5 years in 5sqn.

Cheers

[mowog]

Guys,

Mowog, which chopper SQN were you in, 5, 9 or 12? I did 6.5 years in 5sqn.

Cheers

Ok didn't know the depleted uranium had been modded out.

Venting the tanks is difficult even with the right equipment. AVTUR by itself is pretty toxic and it is the subject of an upcoming study.

Chopper world...

Started life at Canberra Rotary Wing fight at 3AD doing E Serv's on Canberra's about 2 months later the old girls were removed from service.

Went over to R4's on Chinook and Iroquois thankfully ended up full time on Iroquois R4 and only helped the chook guys when they got busy.

From there I was only one of two guys to go from 3AD to the Sinai While I was there it was mainly a 5 Sqn crew that were there. I was on the last rotation and came home on the Galaxy with our 8 birds.

From there I went to 35 Sqn and sadly was there when our Iroquois were sent to the grunts.

I was also there when we sent 4 Iroquois to PNG...

A2 509 on its way to PNG

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/06/956.jpg

[VladTepes]

All you RAAF types whinge about losing rotary wing aircraft to the Army but I'm SURE you would have gotten a nice backpack or bivvy as a trade ! :lol2:

[mowog]

The transfer of Rotary wing to Army was one of the dumbest things done in this country.

[VladTepes]

That's a hell of a thread tangent so.... go here....


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/flight/130771-when-rotary-wing-aircraft-went-raaf-army.html#post1499626

[Mudguard]

There's a lot of history to these stunning aircraft. I'd give my right nut for a ride in one. I'd kill for one in my front yard!
They were on a hiding to nowhere when the SAC and USN were told to come up with a single aircraft. They deliberately put up specs that meant no single aircraft wold ever work - still the Grumman F111 did the job. The most exciting aircraft ever built.
Got to stand inside the bomb bay of one once (with a RAAF mate) before the guy with the guard dog arrived and ordered us to move away.
Gotta love the TFR.
I have a book called Flight of the Pig...a fantastic book of the history of the F111 in the RAAF.

Lol... I was a very lucky Airman who got a ride over Penang, Malaysia in 07 and i didnt have to give my right nut, however i did donate my lunch to a bag....i distincly remember that the fried rice didnt taste anywhere as good the second time.

[VladTepes]

My previous boss was an ex-RAAF guy (mechanic I think) and he got to go up TWICE.

As he was happy to keep reminding me, the bastard !