Anyone experienced water in diesel?

[solarstabi]

D3's & other modern diesels (ie all of them) die very expensively when water gets through to the high pressure fuel pump & the engine.
Manufacturers (incl LRA) deny warranty claim - it's owner cost which might be covered by your insurance policy.

Has anyone here got any personal experience of water-in-fuel damage to a D3/D4/RRS?

Fuel filter is not "user accessible". Service interval replacement on a D3 is every 24000 km or so, so it would be easy to "get a bad load of fuel" and not know about it until too late.

LRA and dealer also say fitting any other fuel filter (which has a clear inspection bowl, for example) voids warranty and they won't allow it.

Comments, anyone?

[isuzurover]

LRA and dealer also say fitting any other fuel filter (which has a clear inspection bowl, for example) voids warranty and they won't allow it.




What about fitting a 2nd fuel filter as a pre-filter?

Water is not your only problem. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/128747-fuel-filtration-commonrail-diesels.html

Your chances of getting water past your filter are higher if you use Bio. However all diesel can now contain 5% bio, and 10% won't be far off.

[Bigbjorn]

Get a Raycor filter/separator. These are the duck's nuts. They have a cyclonic pre-filter section like a Donaldson air cleaner which spins out water and solids.

[Neil P]

...
LRA and dealer also say fitting any other fuel filter (which has a clear inspection bowl, for example) voids warranty and they won't allow it.

Comments, anyone? Is this "void" for an addition ?

[TerryO]

The 2006 SsangYong Rexton we also have has two fuel filters, the first for catching water, it has a warning light and chime when it gets to a certain level.

To clear it is as easy as reaching under the first filter and turning the locking nut which then acts as a drain for the water. It only takes five minutes to drain the water.

If a SsangYong that most people laugh at can have a decent water filtration system then LR have a lot to answer for.

I will be looking into having a second water filter added in the not to distant future on our D3.

cheers,
Terry

[Duck's Guts]

Davis Performance Landies sells the same sort of add-on additioanl filtration system that you describe from a Rexton. DPL call it a 'Water watch trap assembly' - approx cost $350 fitted.

[PAT303]

The 2006 SsangYong Rexton we also have has two fuel filters, the first for catching water, it has a warning light and chime when it gets to a certain level.

To clear it is as easy as reaching under the first filter and turning the locking nut which then acts as a drain for the water. It only takes five minutes to drain the water.

If a SsangYong that most people laugh at can have a decent water filtration system then LR have a lot to answer for.

I will be looking into having a second water filter added in the not to distant future on our D3.

cheers,
Terry
Defenders have had the same set-up for years. Pat

[Naks]

Defenders have had the same set-up for years. Pat

Not anymore, i.e, there is no longer a warning light for the water level.

Obviously one should drain the fuel filter regularly, but the bad effects of water in diesel can be mitigated by adding 2-stroke oil in your diesel.

[Neil P]

....... or Castrol Fuel Doctor http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/3052_fuel_doctor.pdf
used it for years in the Kubotas 1ml per 1lt derv.

[unseenone]

The water settles in the bottom of the tank.

On a truck (tractor trailer), there is a drain in the bottom of the tank, so you can drain the water out. This is a routine procedure here, Particularly worsened because a hundred or more gallons and extreme temperature, bad fuel stations, etc. are common.

If there is a lot, it might be possible to drain it off, or pump out the bottom of the tank... just a couple of thoughts to consider. It will be whitish slimy stuff.

[RR P38]

Does a D3 not have a fuel cooler as the TD5 does?
The fuel cooler must surely act as a kettle with the heat build up in the fuel tank the water would be vapourised to some extent and vented off?
Just feel the heat in your fuel filter on a TD5 and she runs mighty warm.
Extra fuel filter and a water trap would appear to be the way to go even if it does void the warranty they wont pay out on water damage to an engine anyway.
In Europe i guess it is just taken for granted that fuel quality is high.Aussie is catching up slowly to Euro diesel specs.
Are state of the art diesels upto our operating conditions long term?
Sure these engines are not going to stop inside of 100,000k but what premature wear can you expect to buy into as a second hand purchaser of say a 150-200k vehicle.
Look at heavy industry diesels that are on a planned maintenance system and they have set services and replacements of parts (injectors) at a given amount of running hours. Most private vehicle owners run things until they fail or show obvious signs of failure or poor performance.

[Davehoos]

we replace filters at 12 months on road going trucks.these only get 10K/yr.
im getiing crud out of the hiluxes at 10K and most of the time i relace the filter.the filter base must be removed and cleaned.the drain gives no indication of whats inside.the isuzu/toyota floats system you mostly find the traped in slime.
then the orings must be replaced as the expand.so i mostly throw on a new element.

fire trucks we do every 2 year due to very low milage and never seen any that needed replacement.the fire pump has a inline filter in or after the pump and a cav.since ive been doing this ive reverse flowed the filters and thrown the prefilter [these block up quickly] the perentie has the sedimenty fitted reversed.and i had a discusion with a gent that thought the engine fitted filter was adequate.

now we get slime at 12month service in the glass bowl that whould havecloged the element.

I have never understood the drain on factory filters.most of these ive used to bleed the filter when held upside down.only the mazda truck with a drain top and bottom to allow the fuel to run out and then used a vac pump to draw the fuel through.

dads pajero we fitted a racor kit and we had to drain it regulary.the original i never saw rubbish in it.i swap a comodore to nissan diesel.for a filter i got a racor to suit 13liter +.in 8 years i never replaced the fiter,i then replaced it as the case rusted trhough from outside.

the toyota is common rail as is the johndeer and isuzu/hino.
the large john deer have spinons and ive never seen crud in these.they use about 500L per week.the trucks have a large strainer that looks racor,i often have to unscrew the plastic bottom and clean.they have a red ring thats suposed to float but it gets stuck on the bottom with crap.

[solarstabi]

In late May my car died on the way home from Birdsville Track with sudden onset of errors which led to death of engine:
2 sets of bogus "warning messages" (1. suspension fault, limited to normal height, 2. transmission fault, limited gears available), followed within minutes by amber engine warning light ("engine problem") then complete stop.
Roadside Assist got us home and car to dealer.
Diagnosis "water and dirt in fuel killed high pressure fuel pump". Your fault. Your cost. Not warranty. Complete new fuel system from tank to injectors. $15,000.
Claimed on insurance; paid excess. Sent fuel receipts in to claim excess back if fuel company/retail outlets admitted to dirty fuel.
5 weeks in workshop waiting for Cat Logistics (who do LR parts worldwide) to get a fuel tank from UK to here (not allowed to clean out and refit original plastic tank, according to dealer on LR's advice).
Got car back, went back to Birdsville track & back. Works fine now but I'm less than happy with a fuel filter which has a sensor (apparently) to notify the ECU of "water in fuel", but doesn't do anything.
Fuel filter is under car, behind 6 bolts/panel, next to transmission.
Not easily replaced by ordinary person, especially in the field.
LR Australia strongly advised me "fitting 2nd fuel filter voids warranty".
Dealer wouldn't fit one or support me if they saw one fitted when they serviced it.
My research found that 2nd fuel filter can (but might not) reduce fuel pressure to HP fuel pump, generating an ECU error. Toyotas sufffer from this too, apparently. Only engineeringly-valid option is "Water Watch" type product which doesn't reduce fuel pressure but "spins" water out of fuel into in inspectable clear bowl under the bonnet. But dealer & LR Australia don't support fitment and say (extended) warranty is void if fitted.
Only practical solution is to replace fuel filter frequently, with great cost and/or inconvenience.
When will these people learn that this is Australia, where dirty fuel is common?
No gripes about the Disco itself and how it performs. But LR Australia and Cat Logistics - words fail me!

[Ean Austral]

Not good to hear of your dramas.

I am curious to read that adding a 2nd filter can (but may not ) effect the HP fuel pump...How can this be so?...Where did your research find this ?

I fail to see how a fuel delivery system can be effected by any amount of filters, unless it restricts the fuel before the pump.

Isnt the HP fuel pump in the tank of the D3, same as on the D2, or do the V6 have a engine driven fuel pump?


Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Not good to hear of your dramas.

I am curious to read that adding a 2nd filter can (but may not ) effect the HP fuel pump...How can this be so?...Where did your research find this ?

I fail to see how a fuel delivery system can be effected by any amount of filters, unless it restricts the fuel before the pump.

Isnt the HP fuel pump in the tank of the D3, same as on the D2, or do the V6 have a engine driven fuel pump?


Cheers Ean


Fuel pressure is monitored and adding certain extra filters can cause an increase in fuel line pressure that can be picked up and a fault registered - however there a many filter systems that do not cause any issue.

My local mechanic has fitted the "Waterwatch" water catch system to D3s and he says he has had no issues with faults being registered.

While I am sure L/R has said adding another filter will void warranty - like all mods it will be up to Lr to show a second filter caused issues in a court. This public policy could come back to bite them - if I had asked LR to fit an appropriate filter to my vehicle and they refused and documented that the addition would void warranty - and then I did get dud fuel I think a very good case could be made against landrover.

Remember Landrover have said that just about any after market accessory not provided by them will void warranty - Bushido

Garry

[Ean Austral]

Fuel pressure is monitored and adding certain extra filters can cause an increase in fuel line pressure that can be picked up and a fault registered - however there a many filter systems that do not cause any issue.

My local mechanic has fitted the "Waterwatch" water catch system to D3s and he says he has had no issues with faults being registered.

While I am sure L/R has said adding another filter will void warranty - like all mods it will be up to Lr to show a second filter caused issues in a court. This public policy could come back to bite them - if I had asked LR to fit an appropriate filter to my vehicle and they refused and documented that the addition would void warranty - and then I did get dud fuel I think a very good case could be made against landrover.

Remember Landrover have said that just about any after market accessory not provided by them will void warranty - Bushido

Garry

I was under the impression that we would be talking of full flow fuel filters, and not adding say a 1/4" filter to a 3/8 line, but I understand your point.

So is the HP fuel pump in the Tank of the D3?..

As a matter of interest the Waterwatch filter system you speak of, is it an off the shelf product, or a specialty ordered system from overseas.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

As a matter of interest the Waterwatch filter system you speak of, is it an off the shelf product, or a specialty ordered system from overseas.

Cheers Ean

My mechanic had a display on his service desk - runs and all and you squirt some water in and the alarm goes off. When I asked about it he said it was about $800 fitted but when he asked what car and I told him he said in the order of $1300 for a D3 - he had done one the week before and said it was a pain to install but it did work Ok, not causing any issues in the D3.

Cooma Diesel Service - Water Watch (http://www.coomadiesel.com.au/4980/Water_Watch/)

Responsive Engineering | Water Testing System | Diesel Filtration | Water Watch - Water Watch System (http://www.responsiveengineering.com.au/6308/Water_Watch_System/)

Garry

[ch2503]

I Filled my new Defender up in Darwin,got 40kms out of town the vehicle just died.
$7000 worth of damage, water in the fuel system.Needed new injectors and fuel pump.LRA wont cover this as warranty is void.
Luckily my insurance have payed for the repairs.
The garage kept a sample of the fuel and my insurance sent out their own inspector to assess the damage.
Still have not got my Defender back yet to really notice if thre is any change in the motor.

[jonesy63]

So is the HP fuel pump in the Tank of the D3?..


There is an electric low pressure/high volume fuel pump in the tank. The high pressure fuel pump is belt driven, at the back near side of the motor. The outlet to the rail is at the front of the HPFP - so when it fails, it dumps diesel all over the turbo. Don't ask me how I know.

Cheers,
Rob

[CaverD3]

solarstabi, what year model was your D3?
There was a recall for some HP fuel pumps on the D3, certain Vins but later extended to cover more other faulty pumps. Jonesy I think will know the details. :angel:

[superquag]

The 2006 SsangYong Rexton we also have has two fuel filters, the first for catching water, it has a warning light and chime when it gets to a certain level.

To clear it is as easy as reaching under the first filter and turning the locking nut which then acts as a drain for the water. It only takes five minutes to drain the water.

If a SsangYong that most people laugh at can have a decent water filtration system then LR have a lot to answer for.

I will be looking into having a second water filter added in the not to distant future on our D3.

cheers,
Terry

... Even my Gen. 1 Pajero has a water alert, and a draining device under the filter.

Why does LR persist in NOT doing this, - and more importantly "forbidding" the owner to ensure his engine is fed a diet of clean, DRY fuel ?

- Planned obsolescence ?

[TerryO]

... Even my Gen. 1 Pajero has a water alert, and a draining device under the filter.

Why does LR persist in NOT doing this, - and more importantly "forbidding" the owner to ensure his engine is fed a diet of clean, DRY fuel ?

- Planned obsolescence ?


How does it feel to be Aulro's ongoing number one Mitsubishi owner and supporter Superquag? ...:lol2:

cheers,
Terry

[jonesy63]

... Even my Gen. 1 Pajero has a water alert, and a draining device under the filter.

Well, that is a tractor - and farmers have to be careful about their machinery... :wasntme:

[Ean Austral]

Has anyone looked into whether a different fuel filter with a water trap can be fitted instead of the existing fuel filter..

I havent payed much attention to the filter , but knowing how many different versions of filters there are available for our boats engines it could be worth a look..

ie, will a TD5 filter fit

Just a thought.

Cheers Ean

[Bigbjorn]

Has anyone looked into whether a different fuel filter with a water trap can be fitted instead of the existing fuel filter..

I havent payed much attention to the filter , but knowing how many different versions of filters there are available for our boats engines it could be worth a look..

ie, will a TD5 filter fit

Just a thought.

Cheers Ean

Ean, see Post#3 this thread. I swear by Racor Filter-Separators. They are the best yet for wet and dirty fuel.

[Ean Austral]

Ean, see Post#3 this thread. I swear by Racor Filter-Separators. They are the best yet for wet and dirty fuel.


I use Racor fuel filters on the boat and this was along the lines I was talking, the Racor system you use, does it replace the main D3 fuel filter or is it added in-line as an additional filter ?

I was just thinking of an easy alternative to save on an expensive fitment of a proper water seperator type set-up. There are plenty of filters available (similar to the TD5 filter) that has an inbuilt water seperating system.


Cheers Ean

[superquag]

How does it feel to be Aulro's ongoing number one Mitsubishi owner and supporter Superquag? ...:lol2:

cheers,
Terry

Fantastic ! :D ... One should always keep the enemy very close to one, so that One knows what they're up to, so One can do better....

- Which is what the Wilks brothers did when Maurice decided to build an improved version of his worn-out farm Jeep. Supply problems meant he could'nt economically source spares...and a replacement would be equally stuffed.- If he could get one.

Somewhere between the Range Rover Classic and today, LR management have, IMHO, forgotten Maurice's basic philosophy...

I'm in pretty good company though, its surprising the number of AULRO members who admit to owning one or more of the Dark Side !

Cheers,
Grumpy Old Curmudgeon.

[superquag]

Just a suggestion regarding extra filtration/water removal without upsetting the many ECU's that get stroppy over flow-rates etc...

Back in the Dark Ages when it was sort-of legal to make Backyard Biodiesel, I put two CAV-type filters in PARALLEL on my Other 4WD.

The idea was that the fuel had a choice... flow rate through EACH would be halved, so there was less pressure to push the tiny boulders through and most importantly, more TIME for the glycerin to drop out.

Worked well with water-removal when I changed to fully washed bio-D

Cheers,

James

[Ean Austral]

My main point in trying to see if another filter would fit in-place of the original, was to eliminate trying to fit another filter/housing to the system..

I must admit to not having studied the TDV6 fuel system closely, but would think it may be abit of a mission as to where to fit it, even fitting a simple inline filter from my long range tank to the original was a skin of the knuckle removing expierience..

Something I may look into when I get back to dry land.

Cheers Ean

[Bigbjorn]

I use Racor fuel filters on the boat and this was along the lines I was talking, the Racor system you use, does it replace the main D3 fuel filter or is it added in-line as an additional filter ?

I was just thinking of an easy alternative to save on an expensive fitment of a proper water seperator type set-up. There are plenty of filters available (similar to the TD5 filter) that has an inbuilt water seperating system.


Cheers Ean

I have a County Isuzu. The Racor is fitted in place of the CAV sedimenter. I also have a CAV filter with glass bowl before the Isuzu spin on filter. There is never anything in the CAV glass bowl except bright clean fuel. The Racor takes all the crap first.

Yes, belt and braces, but it works. I had four line haul trucks with Detroit 8V92TA's and got sick of cleaning out dirty fuel problems from rural fuel distributors. Hence the excess of filtration. I really think all that is necessary is the Racor, but, what the hell, I had the others in place on the County, so left them there.

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

Tackling the fuel problem before you fill the vehicles tank, is the only way to avoid the majority of fuel contamination problems.
By installing a filter / separator in the delivery line between the storage tank and the vehicle, as most farmers do, stops most of the contaminates before they enter the vehicles tank.

This will not help if the vehicle has little use over a long time span, as condensation does occurs when a fuel tank is left near empty and water can then accumulate.
With the water caused by condensation, rust and / or algae will grow, developing another set of problems, being the blockage of the filters, fuel lines and possibly rendering any sensors inoperable.

Another way water can get into a tank besides condensation, is when a warm tank that has low fuel level, is suddenly cooled, during a heavy fall of rain or by crossing a water course. With water flowing around the tank, the air contracts causing a partial vacuum, drawing water in through any open, joints, cracks or breathers.

Has it rained in the outback lately?

Is there any type of device that can successfully be placed into the fuel inlet on a vehicle, so that when filling with a nozzle, is capable of separating out any contaminates?

Cheers Arthur

[Greatsouthernland]

:spudnikwhat:

Bump...

Did this get brought up since the above discussion? Seems like a good suggestion...

[AndyG]

In another post the mr funnel product was mentioned, but to me it looked awkward esp into a defender recessed filler.

I ask my rep at LRA about pre filters (cav) and got the official line of no mods. I then got a phone call (he is ex LR mechanic) and told me the best place on the chassis rail to mount it, in front of the existing gear.

If damaged by water, no warranty, so what is their to lose?

[rar110]

Does the D3/D4/RRS have a sedimenter to separate water and large particles?

[AndyG]

I see Racor also have a filter funnel. Prob a good idea if you think the fuel is dodgy, but would you use it every time. Their water seep raptor filters have a 2, 10, 30 micron versions, am thinking 10 micron.

[rar110]

I see Racor also have a filter funnel. Prob a good idea if you think the fuel is dodgy, but would you use it every time. Their water seep raptor filters have a 2, 10, 30 micron versions, am thinking 10 micron.

I substituted the standard Lucas separator with a racor filter/separator on the 110. As a primary filter it worked too well using 2 & 10 micron filters, as they both blocked causing a breakdown. The particles where rust from the fuel tank and oil residue from a jerry can. The Lucas unit does a good job picking up larger particles. I've put the Lucas unit back on, but will run the Racor 10 micron filter after the Lucas unit.

[AndyG]

I saw one product CAV ? With two filter housings in one assembly, I wonder if that is to run two different micron elements?

[Davehoos]

I wonder if that is to run two different micron elements

They can be 2 in parallel or series.

often the in series housing have a small drilling to allow fuel to bypass the first housing.

few different housings. one housing the centers are joined,-the first filter fuel comes in the outer clogs it up the water collects and is passed on to the center of the second housing that has a water drain or sedimenter.

we have a fiat here with a CAV filter and sedimentor under the housing and a screw on filter on top with a bleed scew-both filters are in parallel.

[phl]

I have a roof mounted Boab 55L spare fuel tank which is gravity fed via a hose to the filler. What's a good in-line filter for that purpose? Will the CAV filter work or is there something more compact?

[isuzurover]

Commonrail diesels have much higher specifications for fuel filtration and also much higher fuel flow (recirculation) than do old-tech diesels.

That said, most filters do not meet the specs when tested in real-world conditions.

Most of the old-tech (e.g. CAV type) filters and sedimenters are either not large enough or not fine enough for commonrail engines. However that said - if they are sized correctly they can work well as a pre-filter to protect the $$$ main filter.

[rar110]

Commonrail diesels have much higher specifications for fuel filtration and also much higher fuel flow (recirculation) than do old-tech diesels. That said, most filters do not meet the specs when tested in real-world conditions. Most of the old-tech (e.g. CAV type) filters and sedimenters are either not large enough or not fine enough for edcommonrail engines. However that said - if they are sized correctly they can work well as a pre-filter to protect the $$$ main filter.

Ben, do you thing a Lucas sedimenter would have sufficient fuel flow. Or is adding something like this unnecessary. After my substitution with a Racor filter/sedimenter I'm more inclined to stick with the OEM setup.