Defender Purchase Advice (300tdi vs td5)

[ThoBar]

Hi all,

New to the forum, but drive a p38a currently.

Looking to move to a Defender 110, but am not sure whether to go for a 300tdi or td5. I do prefer the drive of the td5, but really am after a bullet-proof vehicle for touring - possibly including O/S. I don't want to be scared of water, and if I'm remote, I'd like half a chance of getting help.

I've found a 94 tdi with upgraded pulley system, maxi-drives etc, but I am really unsure if I should go for this vintage or the newer td5 - which I'm aware has it's own set of issues (plastic dowels etc).

I guess I'm asking if the advantage off-road and touring for a vehicle that I'm not planning to tow with justifies the td5...?

I had a look around on the forum, but couldn't find much direct info. Apologies if I've missed it.


Cheers,
T

[VladTepes]

Given your intention to use it overseas (presumably travelling in remote places), your desire for water not to worry you excessively, then I think the Tdi would be a safer bet.

They certainly are no rocketships though.

[isuzurover]

Personally I would get a 4BD1(T). There are millions of them in trucks overseas, so parts are everywhere.

Given the choice of TD1 vs TD5 though, I would buy the latter and learn how to repair/troubleshoot it myself.

[rangieman]

Well very valid question which i have contemplated many a time :cool: I have owned both in Defers .

Now i could be shot down or called a Dinosaur for my answers to your questions but as they are first hand i dont care for some others so called thoughts :p ,

Of both the engines i loved the Td5 for performance , i never had any dramas with the Td5 , But the thought of some electrical engine management problem was all ways there which did concern me a lot if i ever did remote travel ,
Now we all know that electrical componets can give way at any time with out notice !:twisted:

Now the Tdi the only thing that concerned me was the silly timing belt , But if serviced at the right intervals there should be no dramas , The Tdi is a very basic engine that most can be repaired on the side of the road with the right knowledge , The Td5 is a complex engine that requires the right diaognostic equipment (electrical) at times to sort out problems ,

So my theroy is if you want simple that just about any tom dick or harry can fix any where the Tdi is your puppy

Sorry if ive insulted some of the technos out there , ill just crawl back into my (Tdi) cave now :p

[Psimpson7]

TD5 without any doubt if it was me.

The overall condition of the vehichle is more important that the engine in it in all honesty however.

For example there was a post somewhere on here yesterday I think with a guy in an Isuzu 110 who was in trouble because oil was pouring out of his transfer case.

The TD5 in the Defender is very simple. In fact in my opinion its far easier to work on that a Tdi.

It also has the stronger later R380 gearbox.

I would have no hesitation taking a good TD5 defender anywhere. Ive taken mine all over the place.

[d@rk51d3]

I'd go td5. Check the oil pump bolt, grab a nanocom and enjoy.

[ThoBar]

Personally I would get a 4BD1(T). There are millions of them in trucks overseas, so parts are everywhere.

Given the choice of TD1 vs TD5 though, I would buy the latter and learn how to repair/troubleshoot it myself. Hen's teeth?

Can't say I've seen one for sale yet. Are these a much more powerful engine?

[wally]

I've owned both. The Td5 is certainly better on the road but in certain off-road situations I prefer Tdis. Cost of parts and running costs will be a bit higher for a Td5 but you also don't have to worry about doing your timing belt every 70000km. I can't see why the Td5's electronics are all that relevant because they don't really cause too many problems, and they do aid in diagnostics, and allow use of a nanocom or similar device. For me it probably comes down to type of use. For predominantly highway running (and especially for towing) I'd probably lean towards Td5 (2002 onward if possible). If I was out bush and off-road often then I'd lean towards Tdi. But either way, it's more important to get one that's been treated well and properly maintained.

[ThoBar]

Answered my own question (re: 4bd1)... or rather another thread did. Yes, more powerful.

[Psimpson7]

Answered my own question (re: 4bd1)... or rather another thread did. Yes, more powerful.

I disagree.

[ThoBar]

I've owned both. The Td5 is certainly better on the road but in certain off-road situations I prefer Tdis. Cost of parts and running costs will be a bit higher for a Td5 but you also don't have to worry about doing your timing belt every 70000km. I can't see why the Td5's electronics are all that relevant because they don't really cause too many problems, and they do aid in diagnostics, and allow use of a nanocom or similar device. For me it probably comes down to type of use. For predominantly highway running (and especially for towing) I'd probably lean towards Td5 (2002 onward if possible). If I was out bush and off-road often then I'd lean towards Tdi. But either way, it's more important to get one that's been treated well and properly maintained.
Why the 2002 onward? What changed?

[isuzurover]

Hen's teeth?

Can't say I've seen one for sale yet. Are these a much more powerful engine?

The 4BD1 was fitted to land rovers sold in Au between 1982 and 1991. And also military 4x4s and 6x6s manufactured between the mid 80s and mid 90s.

The bodies and drivetrains of some vehicles are getting long in the tooth, but the engines do a million k's between rebuilds, and can be easily turbocharged. There are a few out there that have been well looked after or rebuilt.

Economy is about the same as a Tdi or Td5, but they produce much more torque, and last a lot longer.



I disagree.

Stock for stock, a Td5 has ~45 kW more than a 4BD1T, but the 4BD1T has ~50 Nm more torque...

However I would place money that a tweaked TD5 producing the same peak power and peak torque as a tweaked 4BD1T wouldn't last as long (plus the 4BD1T would have more torque down low - nomatter what you do to the TD5).

[Michael2]

Buy the 300 Tdi.

[1] Parts are cheaper (usually ex-UK).
[2] Less hoses, easier to access & replace
[3] Less complex parts (ie separate alternator / vacuum pump; no ECU, no EGR; no CAT; no in-tank fuel pump; no Fuel cooler...
[4] Easier to diagnose or bypass faults.

[5] Price - I've noticed 300 Tdi's are up on price from a year ago and TD5s are down, so not much difference in that.

I've got a 300Tdi Defender and a TD5 D2a. The TD5 hasn't been as scary to work on as I feared, and I'll concede the ECU in a 110 has less to deal with than the ECU in a D2. But the Tdi is easier and faster and cheaper to work on.

In a remote area, I'd be a lot more comfortable in the Tdi, there'd be less 'critical spares' to carry and they'd all be a simple fix.

The Td5s benefits over the TDi would be traction control.

Until the PUMA came out TDi were still made new for NATO, not sure since.

[JohnF]

if you do the timing chain or have receipts for it being recently done, a 300TDI is going to give you 50-70,000 km before you have to worry about it again. That is a lot of KM's. And no worry about the ECU, etc., of the TD5. I know what I would do,

But must add, I have never owned a TD5, but we have TDI's..

[Jeff]

I have had nearly 300,000 km out of my 300 TDi Defender, and it has had a water pump and an injector pump. The latter was leaking, so was a roadworthy fail and needed to be replaced for rego, it could have driven for longer if needed. Everything else has been reliable, my TD5 Disco on the other hand cost me a fortune as it spat a big end. The big difference was the D2 was second hand and I didn't know it's full history where I owned the Defender from new.

I would look for the best example for the money, with the best service history whichever engine.

Jeff

:rocket:

[wally]

Why the 2002 onward? What changed?

The early Td5 issues (plastic head dowels, oil pump bolt etc) seem to have been sorted by about then. After 2002 however you don't get a Salisbury rear.

[ThoBar]

Thanks for the discussion far.

There's a lot of good food for thought, and it's really helping flesh out what I want - but don't let that stop the discussion.

Cheers.
T

[nonimouse]

'03 to '05 have the weaker fuel galleries so you want an early to mid '02 or a post '05. Just avoid the last 6 month of manufacture as they are ones with all the body rot issues, shared by early TDC's

TD5 weak major spots: Loom,ECU,Injectors,EGR valve,Vacuum pump,Oil pump,Bottom end,Turbo,Exhaust manifold,Poor quality diesel (low calorific especially),Poor fuel economy. All issue experienced around the globe. However it's nice to drive, easy to drive, easy to tune. A great engine all in all if you look after it and know how to sort it out

300Tdi problems: Smaller water jacket than the 200Tdi, Head is not forgiving, errr...?
All the old probs on the 300Tdi have been fixed/found, the cam belt is a two hour job in the shade without even losing the coolant! If you want to travel the world then the 300 is your starting point, it will run on any form of derv all day long - just watch the EGT. A re-build is simple. CHeck the head if you buy an unknown and budget for a new one. Service the injectors very regularly as dribbling melts piston crowns

Obviously the 200Tdi is better still...

The Big Isuzu lump is a stonker but rarer than an honest politician anywhere out of the Southern Hemisphere and parts are very hard to come by. The 2.8 and 3.1 are much eeasier to find bits for North of the Equator.

The best non LR lump for a world traveller would most likely be the Mazda 3.5TD or an Iveco 2.8TD. They don't eat boxes either

What else? Oh yes! Yer man who stated that only TD5's have R380's is wrong - all 300Tdi's have them. Nice box. Cultured. But when it dies it fails outright. Not so the LT77. When it dies it pretty much always leaves 4th working - means you keep going.

[Benny_IIA]

'03 to '05 have the weaker fuel galleries so you want an early to mid '02 or a post '05. Just avoid the last 6 month of manufacture as they are ones with all the body rot issues, shared by early TDC's

TD5 weak major spots: Loom,ECU,Injectors,EGR valve,Vacuum pump,Oil pump,Bottom end,Turbo,Exhaust manifold,Poor quality diesel (low calorific especially),Poor fuel economy. All issue experienced around the globe. However it's nice to drive, easy to drive, easy to tune. A great engine all in all if you look after it and know how to sort it out

300Tdi problems: Smaller water jacket than the 200Tdi, Head is not forgiving, errr...?
All the old probs on the 300Tdi have been fixed/found, the cam belt is a two hour job in the shade without even losing the coolant! If you want to travel the world then the 300 is your starting point, it will run on any form of derv all day long - just watch the EGT. A re-build is simple. CHeck the head if you buy an unknown and budget for a new one. Service the injectors very regularly as dribbling melts piston crowns

Obviously the 200Tdi is better still...

The Big Isuzu lump is a stonker but rarer than an honest politician anywhere out of the Southern Hemisphere and parts are very hard to come by. The 2.8 and 3.1 are much eeasier to find bits for North of the Equator.

The best non LR lump for a world traveller would most likely be the Mazda 3.5TD or an Iveco 2.8TD. They don't eat boxes either

What else? Oh yes! Yer man who stated that only TD5's have R380's is wrong - all 300Tdi's have them. Nice box. Cultured. But when it dies it fails outright. Not so the LT77. When it dies it pretty much always leaves 4th working - means you keep going.

nope it said td5's have a latter modle r380 witch is stronger.

suffix K i think but not 100% sure.

[PAT303]

I've got 440+thousand K's out of my 300Tdi and R380,all of them done by me so I have a real soft spot for them but I would not walk past a good Td5.Either way they are both good and all the issue's they have/had are well known and fix's are easy to find. Pat

[nonimouse]

Three suffixes of R380

J, K, L

J is the 'weaker' of the three. It's also the one which was prone to layshaft breakage (losing reverse and top) as well as mainshaft issues

K and L are pretty much the same; some of the bearings were beefed up, as were various lay shaft gears. The only visible difference is in the casting on the main box but I'm blowed if I can remember what it is

They run hot, in fact they run too hot if EU spec. Your RoW spec stuff should have an oil cooler. If not, fit one. Unless it loses oil like the Exxon Valdez then run the best oil you can (unlike on the LT77 which actually like cheapo oil but lots of changes!)

I think there are four types of R380 - A, B, C and D . Two are car spec, on eis P38 spec and the other is Defender/Disco

The Def/Disco ones differ in the way the gearstick mounts. Def is long stick and direct mount, Disco is short stick and remote linkage mount

[ThoBar]

So it seems...

-For pure "dumb" reliability and fixability, the TDi
-For performance, a TD5 preferably 2002 (is the oil in the loom still a prob?)
-Look for a regularly serviced one regardless.

One last question: If I'm looking at a 300, how well do they perform in soft sand? Is the lower torque and power (in std guise) an issue? -- I envisage a fair bit of soft beach work (fishing), as well as touring. I'm assuming it's not an issue, but would like to be sure.

I can possibly stretch the budget to a 2002, but have found what seems like a reasonably well sorted 94 tdi, and just need some opinions on how they handle the soft stuff.

Lastly, a local LR guy has told me that around the 150k mark, there's a good chance that the TD5s will need a lot of engine work (due to the dowels it sounded like), but the view here seems different. Have many td5 owners had to do much major engine work around this stage?

I know some of these questions may seem a bit trivial or redundant, but really want to be as sure as possible this time (the P38, while a brilliant vehicle, just isn't suitable for how I want to use it)

T

Thanks again for all the advice.

[5teve]

TD5 weak major spots: Loom,ECU,Injectors,EGR valve,Vacuum pump,Oil pump,Bottom end,Turbo,Exhaust manifold,Poor quality diesel (low calorific especially),Poor fuel economy. All issue experienced around the globe. However it's nice to drive, easy to drive, easy to tune. A great engine all in all if you look after it and know how to sort it out



Loom - yes but almost a service item now..

ECU?? - i bet few and far between re failures...or do you mean its a weak point it has one? - alot would disagree... but its an opinion..

Injectors? - really? not heard of many issues?

EGR valve.. not major issue but they fall off easily ;)

Vac pump? again not heard of this... puma definitly..

oil pump BOLT - yep apparently fixed 2002 on... but check it anyway as both my 2002 ones were not loose.. not tight and had no loctite...

bottom end? i thought this was the 300tdi's weak point not the td5?

Turbo.. - same as any vehicle.. few issues where they have failed, but generally isnt it something else that causes them to fail? ie massive egts?

exhaust manifold - not on all of them but a very common well documented issue.. and one that i havent yet encountered... (touch lots of wood)

From what i have read will run on any old deisel you throw in there veggie deisel can cause issues with pipes and filters etc tho...

poor fuel economy? only my opinion.. but my disco has been as low as 8.8l/100k's and my defender can be around the 10.5 (except its not doing it at the mo... and i'm chasing why :) ) ihave seen lots of people that get as good as the 300tdi.. puma seems to chew more tho..

Anyways... another view point just to confuse you :) lots of people hear lots of things... doesnt matter what you buy you can always get a lemon (ask ron) or a diamond.. all luck of the draw...

Steve

[Michael2]

My 300Tdi D110 is great is soft sand, with no performance mods, and running 235/85R16 tyres. If it's struggling, it'll be a tyre pressure thing, not an engine problem. I was at Robe a few years ago, it was a 40.C day and very other car (jeeps, patrols, cruisers) were all over heating. The 300Tdi Defenders in our group went without issue.

As for TD5 issues, I bought an '03 D2 because I thought they had them sorted by then. I replaced the head gasket a few weeks ago at about 170K and it had plastic dowels :mad::mad::mad::mad:

The longer I own a TD5 the more I love the Tdi.

[PAT303]

ThoBar,don't take all this as whats going to happen to you,honesty on this forum is greater than any other I've ever delt with and no one on here will pull the wool over your eye's over problems our vehicles have.Look at both models and buy the best one you can find,they are out there and a sorted one of either model is a good buy and neither model has any issue's that can't be fixed. Pat

[ThoBar]

ThoBar,don't take all this as whats going to happen to you,honesty on this forum is greater than any other I've ever delt with and no one on here will pull the wool over your eye's over problems our vehicles have.Look at both models and buy the best one you can find,they are out there and a sorted one of either model is a good buy and neither model has any issue's that can't be fixed. Pat


Have no fear Pat, I'm not assuming these things will happen to me (though most likely ones seem to be happening with my p38 :mad:), but I'm using this as a guide as to what's most likely to happen and what to watch for. It's good to see a pragmatic debate about issues likely to occur, and how likely the issues are.

I'm leaning toward a particular 300Tdi at the moment, as it seems to have had a fair bit of preventative / rebuild work done on it, and it fits my budget. Although I'm not intending to rush, there's not a lot of choice over here right now, so it really is the best of whats available. That said, there's a couple over east that I'm not afraid to fly over for and drive back - if they check out.

T

[nonimouse]

Loom - yes but.................. all luck of the draw... Steve

No worries old lad. These are just a list of major components I've had fail more than once on a number of different vehicles in various far flung places; as well as issues that have occured in a similar vein.

The fuel thing has caused many issues, many times. Obviously in diesel quality varies, as does calorific value. I cannot reccomend draining a tank and purging a fuel line in -25C (-13F). Poor diesel jellifies (great word) so you need to throw in some petrol/vodka. Decent EU diesel doesn't. Veg oil is just mush. Take that poor diesel and add the fact that it is 10 years old, 20% water and has more rust in it than Scapa Flow. A 300Tdi has no issues - just change the filter...Not so the TD5

[ozscott]

Deefers and sand are a good thing. I saw one of my brothers with his County pulling 2 tonns through deep soft sand with a 3500 and a blown head gasket and skinny stock MT's...gotta love it.

Cheers

[Offender90]

ThoBar,

For remote touring I would be inclined to go the Tdi as well (if chosing between Tdi and TD5). My reasoning? - Simpler to understand, all mechanical, easier to troubleshoot and easier to fix in remote areas (for someone of my bush mechanic capabilities/limitations).

It does have less power/torque and is less refined than a TD5, but is well geared and will get you there in the end. It would be a price I would gladly pay for a peace of mind that I'll be able to deal with most things thrown at me on the road. Especially if you've got a line on a well sorted one with some desirable accessories fitted.

That's why I drive an 4BD1 / LT95 powered 120 (which I turboed and intercooled). It's not the most comfortable, or the quietest car on the road, but is the most reliable for remote area travel.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Having owned Tdi's and TD5s and travelled various parts of the world in both Id say this:

1. Buy the best example you can find / afford.
2. Service records are crucial
3. Go with your gut feel when you inspect, not just the vehicle but the person selling it also - question them heavily about use and their life with the car.

Seriously, on a well looked after and preparred vehicle neither will give you major issues.

My personal choice would be a TD5 (2002 onwards), but if I found a corking 300Tdi and an OK TD5 Id buy the 300TDi.

Jon

[isuzurover]

The Big Isuzu lump is a stonker but rarer than an honest politician anywhere out of the Southern Hemisphere and parts are very hard to come by. The 2.8 and 3.1 are much eeasier to find bits for North of the Equator.


Sorry, but that is incorrect.

4BD1(T)s and 4BD2(T)s are everywhere all over the world, and parts are just as easy to find in the northern hemisphere as the south (many of us buy our big ticket items in the US).

The 4BD1(T) and 4BD2(T) appeared in the GMC4000 and the Isuzu NPR truck in the US.
http://www.equipmentready.com/upload/products/jumboauto/large/10351_PIC1.jpg

And - shock - here is a company in the UK who specialise in isuzu truck parts Croft Brothers | Commercial vehicle repair and maintenance service in Slough (http://www.croftbrothers.co.uk/) I am sure they would have all the bits you need.

The isuzu powered landies are basically a 110 CSW V8 with an engine conversion. 99.99% of the parts are either stock 110 CSW V8 parts or stock isuzu truck parts.

[nonimouse]

Isuzurover

I hear what you are saying but in reality it's not the case.

I know Croft Bro's, nice people with scarey prices. The reason I know them is when a client of mine (who owned a 3.9 conversion) needed parts he suggested I go there to scource them. I could list three or four other places in the UK that 'specialise' in that sort of stuff. But they are all 'Police Watch' for handling stolen vehicles. You could go a year here and not see an Isuzu light truck, same goes for France. Those that do exist are kept as long as possible then flogged to the truck markets in North Africa. As for Eastern Europe - forget it

So I'm sorry old lad but I am correct. If I wasn't I wouldn't have a 200Tdi in my 110!

I do however agree that they are available in the good old US of A; but that's just the states - the bit the other side of the Atlantic is a lot bigger and a lot more interesting to drive round.

I just a had a quick sweep on the European engine rescource - 1 engine in Chicago for $2500!

Add to that if you travel in France or Spain (and one or two other EU countries) and have the joy of being stopped, you will be driving an illegal vehicle in there eyes. Even if the conversion has been approved in the country the vehile is registered in...

I could go on but I won't as I am now rambling like an old man

[isuzurover]

Isuzurover

I hear what you are saying but in reality it's not the case.

I know Croft Bro's, nice people with scarey prices. The reason I know them is when a client of mine (who owned a 3.9 conversion) needed parts he suggested I go there to scource them. I could list three or four other places in the UK that 'specialise' in that sort of stuff. But they are all 'Police Watch' for handling stolen vehicles. You could go a year here and not see an Isuzu light truck, same goes for France. Those that do exist are kept as long as possible then flogged to the truck markets in North Africa. As for Eastern Europe - forget it

So I'm sorry old lad but I am correct. If I wasn't I wouldn't have a 200Tdi in my 110!

I do however agree that they are available in the good old US of A; but that's just the states - the bit the other side of the Atlantic is a lot bigger and a lot more interesting to drive round.

I just a had a quick sweep on the European engine rescource - 1 engine in Chicago for $2500!

Add to that if you travel in France or Spain (and one or two other EU countries) and have the joy of being stopped, you will be driving an illegal vehicle in there eyes. Even if the conversion has been approved in the country the vehile is registered in...

I could go on but I won't as I am now rambling like an old man

Lol...

Last I checked, not only was the USA and canada in the northern hemisphere, but also mexico, ALL of central america, some of south america, most of africa, asia, india... (EU starting to look small yet?). So your argument is a bit tenuous, as I have travelled in most of the above list of countries and seen HEAPS of isuzu engined trucks driving around... Plus I know people who have travelled in the above countries in isuzu-engined landies...

Next you will argue that it is illegal to import isuzu parts from the US or Asia into the EU :angel::D:p