D3 brakes shuddering

[400HPONGAS]

My D3 TDV6 has developed a strange shudder whilst braking from anything above 60kph (worse when braking from 110-100 )down to around 50KPH . Cant feel anything back through the brake pedal or the steering wheel . Its sort of vibration that goes through the whole car , especially bad under medium to hard braking , until the speed gets down around the 40-50k mark then everything is normal .the brakes still feel very efficient and theres no loss of braking power . Seeing its done 150,000 K Ill being doing a complete brake disc and pad change allround . A quick visual of the discs and pads show nothing abnormal ,front disc almost downto changeout time ,with all the pads just over half worn ,no trace of oil/fluid anywhere .
If I had a warped disk , wonder why the vibration dissapears below 50KPH , which leads me to the wheel bearings or possibly (some sort of "knock off" issue perhaps)balljoints/bushes ? Any ideas on where this vibration/shudder may come from , as it only appears under medium to heavy braking ?

[connock]

Hi 400HPONGAS

I would do your brakes as planed and the vibration will more than likelly be gone, my money is on rotors.

connock

[Mully]

Interesting that you feel nothing through the pedal... makes me wonder about another cause of the shudder apart from the rotors. Everytime I've experienced warped rotor(s) I've felt it through the pedal but the D3 is an unusal beast so it 'could' be possible it's rotors.

At 150 thousand k's (same here), I'm thinking possibly front end issues. I wouldn't think wheel bearings as braking 'normally' stops the wobblies etc in most cases.

Be interesting to see what resolves the issue... hope it works out ok for you. Do you have knocking ball joints etc in the front?

Cheers.

[400HPONGAS]

Mully , the front lower bushes and balljoints have been done , it still steers and tracks well . (come to think of it ,it also brakes straight and true as well !!)no abnormal tyre wear . I think ill run a dial indicator over the rotors . I hate the brain dead way of replacing bits until something works !!!
Now , wheres the best place to get a set of rotors and pads ?. Ive seen rotors going from $80 each to $160 each , Pads from $60 a set to $150 a set . Id love a set of slotted rotors and some soft pads the brake well ,but dont kill the rotors , (just dreamin !!)

[Mully]

Good job... did you change wishbones at the same time? Got the lose front end here and am curious... :)

It all sounds pretty good so have to then wonder about the pads. A shudder is pretty serious so there is something pretty good causing it. I just changed the front pads after 30 thou and the rotors need a swap out next pad change as they are heavily lipped now.

Wonder if it's some weird ABS thing or moisture in the brake fluid? Being 150 thou, has it had a flush? Pistons ok? Calipers need an overhaul? Overheating?

Cheers.

[400HPONGAS]

Yep Mully, the only way to do them is service exchange with new ones with bushes properly fitted . Its almost impossable to just change the bushes without the Factory push/pull tooling kit that worth over $1000 .The perplexing bit is that it only shudders when braking from the higher speeds (anything over 80KPH) yet it doesnt pull or grab ,sort of saying whatever it is ,it isnt coming from 1 wheel/brake/pads , so maybe somesort of ABS fault . Wish I could do 100KPH in Reverse and see if did it then LMFAO !!Dont think water or Brakefluid contamination could cause it unless it was doing something to the ABS valve block.Might try it with DSC off if it will let me !

[bbyer]

Id love a set of slotted rotors and some soft pads the brake well ,but don't kill the rotors , (just dreamin !!) The link below is to a Brembo page for discs for the V8 D3.

It shows drilled, but not slotted rotors, and here in Canada, the list price is similar to Land Rover OEM. There is nothing showing for pads, but I was considering putting the Brembo rotors on with the stock Land Rover Ferodo pads. Other than black dust, the OEM Ferodo pads do not seem to make any noise and to date, have stopped the 3 as desired.

It may be that you could shut the ABS systems off by pulling the various fuses. That may give you an idea of where to look as whenever I have a warped rotor problem, it is felt thru the brake pedal and at slow speeds as well.

Brembo - Discs Catalogue (http://www.brembo.com/CatalogoHP/Templates/SearchHP.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b63F2F2F3-F471-4D3D-BD56-7D10C1FD4F7D%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fENG%2fHighPerformance-Brakes%2fCarsSportLine%2fsearchDisc%2ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest)

[Mully]

Hmm... have to start wondering about pad/rotor wear.... over 80kph 'possibly' highlights the actual cause due to the higher rotation speed I'm thinking...?? Maybe the pads are that worn that the pistons are so extended they wobble. Of course this would be ignoring the wear indicator and the fact you'd be metal on metal by that stage. :)

Time to rip the wheels off!

Did you do the wishbones yourself? I've been quote $1100 for full front end fix up but didn't question if larger wishbone/ball joint swap outs were included.

Cheers.

..forgot to add that I paid about $130 for front pads and sensor last week from TRS in Lonsdale SA.

[400HPONGAS]

Heres how you do them on the cheap , Buy them from USA fleabay when they come up
Upper Control Arm LR3 384946 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Upper-Control-Arm-LR3-384946-2005-2006-2007-2008-2009-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem519980370cQQitemZ35046 7667724QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries)

LAND ROVER FRONT SUSPENSION CONTROL ARM RH LR3 OEM | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LAND-ROVER-FRONT-SUSPENSION-CONTROL-ARM-RH-LR3-OEM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZMakeQ3aLandQ20RoverQ7cMode lQ3aLR3QQhashZitem2a10284e98QQitemZ180659703448QQp tZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
LAND ROVER FRONT SUSPENSION CONTROL ARM LH LR3 OEM | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LAND-ROVER-FRONT-SUSPENSION-CONTROL-ARM-LH-LR3-OEM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZMakeQ3aLandQ20RoverQ7cMode lQ3aLR3QQhashZitem25634ce9d3QQitemZ160579774931QQp tZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)

and for the rears

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LAND-ROVER-REAR-SUSPENSION-LOWER-ARM-LH-LR3-LR4-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZMakeQ3aLandQ20RoverQ7cMode lQ3aLR3QQhashZitem27bb7591efQQitemZ170648769007QQp tZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Heres fronts with freight , say$160 each , now here it would be more for the bushes alone !
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Genuine-Front-Control-Arm-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZMakeQ3aLandQ20RoverQ7cMode lQ3aLR3QQhashZitem5ae0d60873QQitemZ390319179891QQp tZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Front rotors
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230573861847&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Ultimate front rotors drilled and slotted (pity the freight will be nearly as much as the rotor LOL
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220647425238&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Looking back at your $1100 , that seems aweful cheap , what exactly do you get for that ?Will probably be a re-bush job and cost extra for removal and refitting.

You could have got front and rear pads for that price !
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200528364529&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Mike_S]

Those are top arms for the front and lower arms for the rear ?? The top arms are cheap but those lower rears are dearer than the OEM part from LR !

I've just bought a full set of lower arms for my RRS, fronts were £120 each, rears £92 each. All from Yeovil Land Rover, via the Disco3 forum. The new bolts cost almost as much, from memory they've come in at about £60 for the set (camber bolts don't forget and they're HUGE!).

As for your vibration, have you checked it's not a stuck caliper ? Reason I say this is only last weekend I had a massive vibration develop at the back of the car, turned out to be a seized rear caliper. The rear disc was pretty much glowing by the time I found a layby to stop in !

[Mully]

Hey Ponga thanks for the info... hadn't really considered eBay options for some strange reason... prolly still a job that needs doing but isn't in the immediate future I guess. Good info and links... those brake pads look interesting with the word kevlar on them... the ones I got were Ferodo but there is certainly a heck of a price difference!

Cheers.

[400HPONGAS]

Mully , just seen another D3 , done 250000k , had NEW FRONT wishbones Top and Bottom Left and right fitted including bushes and uprated balljoints and a complete set of Camber Bolts , wheel aligned and height adjustments , drive in drive out , Just under the $2000 mark . Interesting seeing the removal method , an electric hacksaw !!!!!

[bbyer]

Mully , just seen another D3 , done 250000k , had NEW FRONT wishbones Top and Bottom Left and right fitted including bushes and uprated ball joints and a complete set of Camber Bolts , wheel aligned and height adjustments , drive in drive out , Just under the $2000 mark . Interesting seeing the removal method , an electric hacksaw !!!!! That is about how mine were changed as well.

Actually two of the three bolts on each side unscrewed, but as usual, there is always one that will not come.

That is one reason why completely new lower A arm replacement is the best to plan on as then one has all the parts; everything is new and the labour cost can be less as well. In my case no, as the dealer was flat rate, but at least he made money and the mechanic found the change easy to do.

[400HPONGAS]

Well,back on the original topic ofr Brake shudder , a little update
The reason IVe been jacking it is to try and track down the Vibration I get everytime I touch the Brakes. Changed the front rotors and pads , no difference, changed the rear pads as discs looked okay , no difference,Changed the front tyres ,no difference. Changed the Tyre pressures upto 60PSI and then down to 15PSI ,still no difference.
While I was Kevs this arvo jacked it up and ran the dial indicator over the rear discs looking for runout/warpage etc. Found drivers side had no more than .001 runout , Did the Passenger side and it has .012 or 12 thou !!. Now that doesnt seem like much but considering the good side only had 1 thou , perhaps this could be causing the Vibe. Also checked and adjusted Park brake which was only found to be little loose.
Ah well , ordered some new rear discs and Ill hope that fixes it .(But why? , its usually the hub that has the runout ! so perhaps there some rubbish stuck behind the disc where it mounts to the Hub ? another can of worms

[101RRS]

As I indicated on your other thread on this - runout is to be less than .09mm

[400HPONGAS]

Spot on Garrycol, new discs and Pads ordered !!!

[Mully]

What a bunch of fun this has become for you mate! Hope it works out...

[discojools]

Mark, I hope it's not of that Simpson desert stuff causing this prob. Just to let you know when I had the front discs changed the first set they fitted were faulty and caused a shudder.. They changed for another new set and all was fine. Just had the same thing happen with my RRS TDV8.
Can't remember when this was but it wasn't so long ago.. I could check if you like.

Jools

[alpick]

I had the same type of shudder from the brakes in my D2. Thought the rego check mech would suss it out but did not.I later tried to change the pads and it turned out to be a seized caliper pin which I could not free up. took it to the Mech and he was surprised it passed the rego check of the brake system and with a bit of heat and lubrication freed up the pin and the shudder was gone?

Just a thought

cheers
Al

[400HPONGAS]

Alpick , anything is possible , I picked up a misplaced front caliper piston seal when I did the fronts , probably due to letting the pads get to low !! (the pad wear indicator was on the other side and wasnt connected properly anyway)Just fitted a set of Brand new GG's to the rear as well , missus reports its better but its still there !! Pretty sure it will be the .012 warpage on the LHS rear disc

[400HPONGAS]

Just to finish this one off , it was that rear Passenger side Disc , it had .012 run out in it . How did it get that way ? Previous EPB failure !!!! Smooth as now , and much better braking with slotted rotors and Kevlar pads .