Steel sump / Plastic sump ( trans )

[Ean Austral]

Gday All,

Is the steel sump being fitted only for ease of the next oil change and the filter being changeable ( from what I read ) or is it because the plastic one breaks when changing the fluid seeing it was originally assumed to be filled for life.


Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

The former.

I agree that everyone seems to think the gearbox is supposedly sealed for life but actually not so - service interval actually 240,000km - ok one leg short of one foot in the grave.

Garry

[Tote]

Only for the ease of changing the filter, I can't think of any other reason.

Regards,
Tote

[IvanR]

I had the oil and sump changed on this week and opted for the steel sump
because;
1. The steel was only about $20 more than a replacement plastic.
2. you cant replace the plastic anyway without lifting the motor etc because of the cross member.
3. Makes future oil changes easy and cheaper.
As a matter of interest the oil was only $23/litre.

IvanR

2005 Disco3 TDV6S 11300 kms

[Neil P]

......As a matter of interest the oil was only $23/litre.

... What did they supply you with ?

[steved01]

1. The steel was only about $20 more than a replacement plastic.

Where is this ?!

I have been quoted twice - one was an extra $200 and one was an extra $300 !!

[unseenone]

He didn't tell you how much they quoted him on the plastic one however, it might have been overpriced. They are available here, imported from Germany at 285.00 USD for the metal pan kit.

The Oil is another issue, but there are deals to be had here on it.

[IvanR]

Costs for the Transmission service are as follows:

Steel pan (including bolts) $210.80
Pan Gasket $17.80
Filter $35.70
Auto Trans fluid $141.00
Enviromental levy
Total parts $410.3 plus GST
Labour $120
The plastic pan he thought was about $180.
The work was done at a specialist auto transmission service in Shepparton Vic. recommended by my normal mechanic.
It was not the only one he has done and was fully aware of the issuses.
He stated that the cost of the oil has come considerably in recent times and the price he charged was his cost price.

IvanR

[Ean Austral]

Reading the posts I have, there seems to be a big difference in the price people pay for the steel pan...

So is it because some are buying the Ford product and others a aftermarket brand... or are there many places that now sell the steel pans..Would be surprised that I will locate 1 in Darwin for some of the prices quoted.

Cheers Ean

[TerryO]

I had a steel pan fitted recently and from memory it cost about $240.

Given the popularity of fitting alloy protective plates to protect sumps and auto's etc on D3's that are often used off road I would have thought that a steel pan is also more resiliant to damage than the original plastic item, anyway that is the conclusion I came to so that in part is why I had one fitted apart from the long term cost saving.

I still intend to replace the plastic under body covers with alloy protector plates though at some stage but I will still feel more confident off road with a steel pan than a plastic one.

cheers,
Terry

[Ashes]

Is there any downside from changing to the steel pan and changing the oil over? Is there any risk in this procedure?

[bbyer]

Is there any downside from changing to the steel pan and changing the oil over? Is there any risk in this procedure? I do not think there is any downside, but a good question just the same.

I attempted to do the metal pan change here in Alberta, but the ZF pan kit was two months delivery from Germany and $US600.00 just for parts.

I ended up paying a ZF shop with lots of experience on BMW and Mercedes to lift all as required, and install a new plastic pan and of course, new Land Rover ZF oil.

The upside is I now get at least an extra 100 km per tank of gasoline and that has been consistent for the last two months now - more on the highway. I can highway travel, (+110 kph), at least 600 km now on a tank of gasoline in my 4.4L V8 and still have fuel in the tank. Before the transmission oil change, at 400 km, I was looking to fuel up. I can say that there was certainly an upside to the transmission oil change and I figure the total cost, ($800.00 + taxes), will be paid for in a year just in fuel cost savings.

Also I had figured my transmission was OK - shifted smooth but figured an oil change at 120,000 km would be a good idea - first time I might add.
In hindsight, the transmission must have been slipping but I did not realize it. Acceleration is better now as well.

[Mike_S]

I don't suppose you have contact details for the pan supplier in Germany ? We're having trouble locating them here in the UK and I'd like to get mine changed in the next couple of months.

[bbyer]

I don't suppose you have contact details for the pan supplier in Germany ? We're having trouble locating them here in the UK and I'd like to get mine changed in the next couple of months. The part number for the ZF metal pan kit is 1068 103 820 01.

The last two numbers, 01, sometimes seem optional, but but the first 10 digits certainly apply. I at first had difficulty even with the part number, getting any information on the kit for sometime here in Canada thru ZF transmission agents.

It is not so much that they were stalling as the existence of the kits is not common knowledge, hence it is difficult to get them to investigate.

The link below is to some files in disco3 on our transmission that I found while trying to confirm the existence of the metal pan kit. It would seem that the kit was developed due to demands from the Australian market; hence that is why the kit is relatively well known in Australia, but nowhere else.

It appears that the Australian requirement was a result of a particular Ford "ute" with no standard underbelly protection being consistently driven in conditions considered outside of factory design constraints and limitations.

DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - ZF 6HP26 Automatic Transmission in LR3 (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5059)

[unseenone]

It comes from ZF directly, so you would need to order it from an ZF shop there in the UK. They will order it in, with their parts order from ZF. I doubt ZF is setup to take direct orders from consumers. Below is another option, if you want to order it in from the US. (doesn't make sense)

"On the 1068-103-820 with ZF - this comes up as a 6HP26X steel pan retrofit (Ihope that's what you are looking for) anyway - There is no stock in North America - but I can order it on a stock order and get thru ZF - then they will order it from Europe (I am told it is in stock there)

Your cost would be $283.50 - the only issue is that it looks like it will take about 3 weeks to get from the time we place the order. I don't know what the shipping from me to you will be - I am not sure what this piece weighs. Typically when I order something on a stock order - there is no extra freight charges - the only issue is a delay in time.

We don't take out of country credit cards - but we do use Paypal (hope that's ok) Let me know how you want to proceed, and supply me with all your information if you want me to order this for you.

Thank you and have a nice day
Caren

Caren Hunt
Rockland Standard Gear
1(800) 227-1523 (tel:1%28800%29%20227-1523) ext #101"

[Graeme]

It appears that the Australian requirement was a result of a particular Ford "ute" with no standard underbelly protection being consistently driven in conditions considered outside of factory design constraints and limitations.
I'm contemplating the permanent removal of the so-called plastic protection plate because of the constant build-up of mud that causes the the exhausts to vibrate, but might need to wait until its time to change the oil to fit the steel pan.

[Mike_S]

I've found a couple of ZF suppliers, so thanks for those details I'll give them a call

[ahilliar]

Has anybody compared the Ford pan (from Falcon 6 speed ZF) and the ZF retro kit?

Do they have the same capacity as the LR plastic one? Do they have the same profile, ie shape so we can be confident that Auto is being well looked after?

[bbyer]

Has anybody compared the Ford pan (from Falcon 6 speed ZF) and the ZF retro kit?

Do they have the same capacity as the LR plastic one? Do they have the same profile, ie shape so we can be confident that Auto is being well looked after? For me no, as the ZF metal pan kit is still elusive here, however I did find a interesting ZF pdf per the link below and posted it to my Gallery on disco3.

Page 21 shows a sketch of the Land Rover plastic pan, page 22, the BMW metal pan, and page 23, the Ford metal pan, all three designed for the 26X and 28X transmissions that are on our 3's.

From the sketches, all three pans have the pair of magnets, however the BMW metal pan has both a drain and a fill opening. The LR plastic and the Ford metal, only have a single drain opening as for filling, the fill plug on the side of the transmission body remains accessible on those vehicles.

The metal pans appear to use a flat sealing gasket and the plastic LR pan, a rubber O ring type gasket to seal between the pan and the underside of the transmission casing.

These is also the matter of the shorter Torx screws re the metal pans vs the plastic as the metal pan is thinner than the plastic pan.

There is of course still the question as to if the pan supplied in the official ZF kit is the Ford pan or something slightly different again, (in other words, a fourth pan?) About the only way to know is a side by side comparison so the question is a good one.

http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/15405/LR3_BMW_Ford_ZF_6HP26X-28X_Catalog_with_metal_pans_%5B1%5D.pdf

[tonymet]

I have fitted metal pan kit to my RRS. the kit is a BMW part so I have no thoughts that it might not do the job. Kit comes with crappy paper gasket that should be changed for a rubber one to make sure the thing seals properly. As far as I could tell the oil capacity is the same as the plastic one.
The shorter fixing screws are to make up for the thinner profile of the metal v's plastic pan and the fact that the screw holes are sealed in the trans casing. The original screws would bottom out when tightened.

[bbyer]

I have fitted metal pan kit to my RRS. the kit is a BMW part so I have no thoughts that it might not do the job. Kit comes with crappy paper gasket that should be changed for a rubber one to make sure the thing seals properly. As far as I could tell the oil capacity is the same as the plastic one. I did not expect that the gasket would be similar to those used for a water pump on a flat head six. I had anticipated the gasket would be some sort of thin flat rubber like material.

Did you notice if there was a half round groove milled into the mating surface of the transmission casting? The plastic pan uses an O ring like rubber gasket, half recessed into a groove moulded into the plastic so I wondered if a similar groove was milled into the metal of the transmission casting or if the rubber O ring gasket just squished flat on the surface?

What I was really wondering is if there was any difference in the castings between the Ford, BMW, and Land Rover models. If so, I presumed that the gasket mating surface for the metal vs plastic pans might be one place where there was something different as the pan sealing gasket designs are very different, round vs flat.

[steven64]

Hi Ivan, where did you get the gearbox oil changed and was it ZF oil.

Steven

[IvanR]

Hi Steven

I had the service done at Goulburn Valley Automatic Transmission service in Shepparton.
I dont know where he source the oil, but I can make some inquires.
He did mention that when doing warrenty work on falcons with the 6 speed ZF, Ford insisted that the oil be purchased from them which was a lot more expensive than what he could buy it for.

Update.
The pans are made by ZF and sourced through BMW in Sydney.
Steve (at GV Trans) said he would be happy to supply then.
The Oil is made by Fuchs who most likely supply ZF. He said that it is the only oil available that meets the standard.

IvanR

[winaje]

Just spoke to Steve at Goulburn Valley Automatic Transmissions in Shepparton (03 5821 6911) (no affiliation), and was quoted $600 for a full flush with 12 litres of genuine ZF Lifeguard 6 if I already have the steel pan fitted, which includes the filter and labour. If I need the steel pan supplied and fitted it's an extra $240. He also mentioned that the steel pan has better fluid pickup than the plastic one, and has seen good results with steel pan fitment and genuine ZF Lifeguard 6 oil in curing the infamous shudders.

I'll be getting the job done next week (hopefully), and will report my impressions.

[101RRS]

The Oil is made by Fuchs who most likely supply ZF. He said that it is the only oil available that meets the standard.

IvanR

I understand that the Fuchs oil is another brand - some have tried it and said it is OK but any issue is not likely to show for some time. I would rather use the genuine Lifeguard oil to be on the safe side.

Garry

[winaje]

I understand that the Fuchs oil is another brand - some have tried it and said it is OK but any issue is not likely to show for some time. I would rather use the genuine Lifeguard oil to be on the safe side.

Garry

Steve mentioned that the Fuchs is good enough, but that the ZF Lifeguard 6 is better, especially if there is any shuddering. About $13/L difference, $25/L for the Fuchs vs $38/L for the ZF. I'm going with the ZF personally.

[101RRS]

Steve mentioned the the Fuchs is good enough, but that the ZF Lifeguard 6 is better, especially if there is any shuddering. About $13/L difference, $25/L for the Fuchs vs $38/L for the ZF. I'm going with the ZF personally.

I am not prepared to risk my gearbox using a different oil.

If buying in bulk (20l drum) you can get ZF Lifeguard 6 for $27 a litre - trade price would be a bit better.

Garry

[Grappler]

I paid $298incl GST for the genuine ZF metal pan conversion kit from a Motospec in Perth. This included the filter, gasket and screws
ZF LG6 was $31 per litre

I also got a mechatronics connector sleeve for $30


The conversion was straight forward. To avoid removing the cross member on RRS I carefully sawed the plastc filter spigot to allow the plastic pan to be rotated and removed.
The only problem was a slight leak from the gasket. I needed to retorque the screws several times, over several days to get a leak free job.

[winaje]

I paid $298incl GST for the genuine ZF metal pan conversion kit from a Motospec in Perth. This included the filter, gasket and screws
ZF LG6 was $31 per litre

I also got a mechatronics connector sleeve for $30


The conversion was straight forward. To avoid removing the cross member on RRS I carefully sawed the plastc filter spigot to allow the plastic pan to be rotated and removed.
The only problem was a slight leak from the gasket. I needed to retorque the screws several times, over several days to get a leak free job.

Thanks for the info. I decided to use the trans place as it'd be about $140 more than the parts only, and I don't have a flushing tool, or a desire to get fluid on me lol

[Grappler]

I did not expect that the gasket would be similar to those used for a water pump on a flat head six. I had anticipated the gasket would be some sort of thin flat rubber like material.

Did you notice if there was a half round groove milled into the mating surface of the transmission casting? The plastic pan uses an O ring like rubber gasket, half recessed into a groove moulded into the plastic so I wondered if a similar groove was milled into the metal of the transmission casting or if the rubber O ring gasket just squished flat on the surface?

What I was really wondering is if there was any difference in the castings between the Ford, BMW, and Land Rover models. If so, I presumed that the gasket mating surface for the metal vs plastic pans might be one place where there was something different as the pan sealing gasket designs are very different, round vs flat.

My observations from a RRS ZF 6HP26....The plastic pan has a moulded flexible gasket and fits into a grooved recess in the plastic pan. The AT valve housing is just a flat face. The moulded gasket just mates flat with it. The kit comes with a very ordinary fibre gasket. The metal pan is flat so the flat gasket will workThe torques for the shorter screws with metal conversion are slightly higher than the plastic. As I mentioned I needed to retorque overa period to get a perfect seal. Some of the screws at the front are impossible to get a torque wrench onto.
I used Permaflex aircraft sealant, but others recommend nothing to go on the gasket