Interesting magazine "article"

[oldsalt]

My copy of "Overlander 4WD" magazine just arrived in my mail box this morning and I saw with interest that there is an article titled Custom Discovery 3 in it (page 74)- so I sat down and had a read with my afternoon cuppa' - the owner has done a series of "mods" to his vehicle but the main one I took note of was the placement of his "second battery" in a (quote)"custom made compartment behind the rear passenger-side seat due to the physical lack of space in the Discovery's engine bay" (quote Page 79) ????? did he ever wonder what was in that "other" battery sized box on the drivers side of his engine bay ???? - apparently not ... the article does not mention any other mods in the engine bay area so I hope that I'm not maligning the owner (if he has used the other battery box for some other mod) - but I do think it's a little odd to go to all that trouble when the manufacturer has provided you with a perfectly usable second battery compartment fresh from the factory - it sure pays to take off all the covers etc when you get a new vehicle and have a good look around !!!
And I do wonder if his rather fancy looking "alloys" are of the correct load rating, I hope so for his sake - can be an expensive "error" if your insurance company gets wind of it in the event of a "claim" situation.
An "interesting article" for sure.
cheers

[lpj]

Hi Oldsalt,

What issue is that? (June/July I assume) I wouldn't mind picking it up.

[p38arover]

Three batteries will fit under the bonnet in a D3.

[oldsalt]

It's the July issue - I got a "free" subscription with my set of GG tyres ... ;)
As I've said above - I hope I don't upset the owner of this particular vehicle but it seems odd that he didn't even check to see what was underneath all those plastic covers under his bonnet - or that the dealer didn't mention the second battery box - or somebody from the Land Rover Owners Club of Brisbane who also get a mention in the article ... oh well I'm sure he'll enjoy his vehicle ... and we all make mistakes don't we....
cheers

[Celtoid]

It's the July issue - I got a "free" subscription with my set of GG tyres ... ;)
As I've said above - I hope I don't upset the owner of this particular vehicle but it seems odd that he didn't even check to see what was underneath all those plastic covers under his bonnet - or that the dealer didn't mention the second battery box - or somebody from the Land Rover Owners Club of Brisbane who also get a mention in the article ... oh well I'm sure he'll enjoy his vehicle ... and we all make mistakes don't we....
cheers

Maybe he wanted 4 batteries and LR hadn't given him enough space......:wasntme:.....LOL!!!

[rmp]

Some early reviews of the D3 claimed there was no space for a second battery precisely because those covers had not been opened. Obviously the D3 is not such a vehicle, so that decision makes no sense to me either, why not use the engine bay instead of valuable cargo space.

The article also refers a few times to a centre diff lock. This is misleading as the D3 like most modern vehicles uses a torque splitter which continously varies the torque front/rear, not often actually "locking" as did the old systems like that of the D2 and Defender. The rear locker is actually a clutch pack, although it too can lock both wheels on the rear axle. Discoverys shouldn't be thought of in terms of on/off lock hubs, lock centre diff, lock cross-axles...that sort of thinking is for earlier generation vehicles.

[Preacher]

Img_2925forum.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37227&stc=1&d=1309690278)

I run a full time Bushman fridge - triple batteries are the go with the new Traxide system

dj

[harlie]

These mags have always been very much anti Land Rover - actually anything non Toyota, don't let minor things like facts stop a good story...

[p38arover]

These mags have always been very much anti Land Rover - actually anything non Toyota, don't let minor things like facts stop a good story...

Not strictly true. A few of the staff have had Landies, both of the Defender and Range Rover types. Ditto with Overlander (although it's rmp who has the D3! :D ).

However, last weekend I was talking to a bloke who claimed that an article (in an Express publication) about his own vehicle was rehashed and incorrect information put in, especially crediting people who did NOT do the work on the car - much to the chagrin of those who did do the work.

[rmp]

These mags have always been very much anti Land Rover - actually anything non Toyota, don't let minor things like facts stop a good story...

and the evidence for this statement would be.......?

[bell1975]

I have been given a stack of the past 12 issues of 4WD Action magazine by a mate and from the cursory reading I've done of a few I must say that the bias in this particular mag is overwhelmingly toward Toyota and Nissan badged vehicles.

And there was also a copy of Overlander that featured an article on Traction Control vs mechanical options - a Disco 3 that was compared with a 76 series and a 200 series LC IIRC. In a nutshell the article praised the Disco relatively highly against the LCs but the photo of the Disco being towed/snatched by the 200 series LC seemed incongruous given the tone of the article.

Bias? Slagging off the LR marque? Who knows?

More importantly: who cares?

[DiscoWeb]

I have been given a stack of the past 12 issues of 4WD Action magazine by a mate and from the cursory reading I've done of a few I must say that the bias in this particular mag is overwhelmingly toward Toyota and Nissan badged vehicles.

More importantly: who cares?

bell1975, I agree on both points.

Whilst I sometimes buy the 4wd Action Mag (I like some of the DVD's that come with them) the mag itself is very much biased towards the Toyota, Nissan and even Jeep over anything with an LR badge.

I also note that they have consistently labeled 18inch plus rims as a key reason the D3 and D4 are not 'bush worthy" and yet the new Pootrol has 20 inch rims and it will be the new off road touring flagship for many ?

Anyway, as noted "who cares" I often have a smug smile as my D3 climbs things easily whilst others look on wondering when it will stop, has not failed me yet !!

I actually think Overlander and 4x4 Australia are much more even in their assessment of the Discovery 3 & 4.

George

[harlie]

and the evidence for this statement would be.......?

Did you not read post #1??? Basic facts. Apparently the previous 2 posties have noticed a trend too….

No doubt swayed by advertising $ - after all mags are a bussiness that's primary concern is to make $

[bell1975]

I actually think Overlander and 4x4 Australia are much more even in their assessment of the Discovery 3 & 4.

George

Based on the last few issues of these I have read (some were 12 months old) this is my observation too. One of them, Overlander IIRC, had a D3 project vehicle going for a while - the orange one? Tyre choices do seem to be a sticking point in most of their assessments.



Did you not read post #1??? Basic facts. Apparently the previous 2 posties have noticed a trend too….

No doubt swayed by advertising $ - after all mags are a bussiness that's primary concern is to make $


Yeah, absolutely, the almighty dollar and the fact that there is a massive market in this country for aftermarket kit/camping kit, etc means that they are 100% obliged to look after the advertisers that spend the most. I'd hate to think what a 6 page "advertising feature" in Overlander or 4x4 Australia would cost.

It's the same scenario in motorcycle mags. The big Jap 4: Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki and Yamaha are on every page. Ducati are spending more coin on ads too as their market share is slowly increasing over here. I was once a subscriber to "two wheels" (more recently became "2wheels" for some unknown reason...:cool:) and when the sub expired I had no intention of renewing as the previous 2 years had shown what a slimmed down publication it had become editorial-wise. There were a few good articles every month (ADITLO and Smith and Roothy's columns to name most of them) but I could read the content worth reading in an hour or so. Not value for money IMO. If I lived in a larger town with more than 1 newsagent I could have made a few visits to each shop and had the mag read over a couple of days :angel:

As owners of LRs we know the value in forums such as these. There is no better place to get objective information and evaluations on vehicles and other kit than from owners themselves (and vendors too of course).

[CSBrisie]

Um, isnt the orange project car in Overlander actually "rmp" 's car (rmp who posted below?). Ex G4 Challenge.

I think 4x4 Australia and Overlander are pretty fair on the Disco's - and with MTR's on 19 inch rims I dont know of many owners who have had any issues? I certainly havent - they've been fine. As for 4WD Action - yeah cant say Disco's feature much ....Roothy and co are Landcruiser lovers and their latest DVD (Ten Top Toyota Cruisers) says it all. That said, I like the guy and like some of the places they go and tracks they attempt!

[bell1975]

Um, isnt the orange project car in Overlander actually "rmp" 's car (rmp who posted below?). Ex G4 Challenge.

No idea. But I like oranges.

[rmp]

Did you not read post #1??? Basic facts. Apparently the previous 2 posties have noticed a trend too….

No doubt swayed by advertising $ - after all mags are a bussiness that's primary concern is to make $

You referred to a bias against LR by Overlander. The later posters discused 4WD Action, a different magazine to that referenced.

Secondly, the Overlander article contained errors, which is not the same as bias. For balance, there were similar errors in the text about the Prado 150 and 76 Series.

[rmp]

Um, isnt the orange project car in Overlander actually "rmp" 's car (rmp who posted below?). Ex G4 Challenge.


Partially correct. The car is indeed ex-G4 but it is not mine.

It's my wife's.

[RangieBit]

You referred to a bias against LR by Overlander. The later posters discused 4WD Action, a different magazine to that referenced.

<snipped>

True enough. I tend to agree that Overlander and 4x4 Australia have been much more even in their assessments than the other.

What I do think will be interesting is to watch what happens to that lack of bias now that Overlander is owned by Express Publications. You know, the one that also publishes 4WD Action.

Just my 2c worth.

Cheers,
Iain

[harlie]

Do I take from the posts above that rmp is actually associated with this publication? So would have a financial interest in shutting me up? Don’t see that declared, the connection to the business that publishes “errors”, and if these errors are that blind – what’s the point in reading it?

For the record I am a reader and consumer of 4x4, camping and boating equipment, accessories and vehicles. It just craps me when at a camp site or boat ramp, the average punter will argue about features of any euro brand (4x4 mainly) because that’s what they read in “last months mag”. “That D3 is no good; the 2nd battery has to go inside – how stupid is that”. Must be true it’s in print, don’t let the fact that the writer didn’t bother to actually investigate what was under that battery sized plastic cover enter the conversation.

When mentioning this discussion yesterday at work, my colleague named an Overlander Writer (off the top of his head) for BIAS views in articles – I thought that interesting, I have to re-look to pick up patterns. At least a few of the boating publications recently have been honest enough to print editorials about why brand X is receiving more page time / favourable publicity than brand Y, one editor even wrote about a manufacturer/distributor threatening to “cancel advertising space if that was printed” – of course no names were mentioned…

Makes me think of the issue of Overlander that has been sitting on my shelf at home for ever, it has the fourby of the year awards from when my truck was new – man was a writer gunning blindly for one particular brand in that one and yes it is the same as mentioned in passing…

But sorry “errors” not bias – at least I know not to waste time and money there any more...

[DiscoWeb]

Do I take from the posts above that rmp is actually associated with this publication? So would have a financial interest in shutting me up? Don’t see that declared, the connection to the business that publishes “errors”, and if these errors are that blind – what’s the point in reading it?

It just craps me when at a camp site or boat ramp, the average punter will argue about features of any euro brand (4x4 mainly) because that’s what they read in “last months mag”. “That D3 is no good; the 2nd battery has to go inside – how stupid is that”. Must be true it’s in print, don’t let the fact that the writer didn’t bother to actually investigate what was under that battery sized plastic cover enter the conversation.

But sorry “errors” not bias – at least I know not to waste time and money there any more...

Geez, keep your pants on. RMP is entitled to ask you to show him evidence of this deliberate bias without having to disclose he is involved in the actual mag, it was your comment after all.

Why do you care. It is your vehicle, you made the better informed choice, who cares what the mug at the boat ramp thinks. As noted before I like the look of amazement on the faces of other 4wders (Tojo and Nissan owners) when the D3 simply walks up stuff they think will stop it.

LR is a major advertiser in all these mags, pretty much every mag I recall picking up in the last 12 months had the back cover as an LR ad so any 'bias" must not be putting the advertisers off.

I would like to be perfect in everything I do at work but I recon you would find more than the odd mistake, no reason for journos to be any different.

George.

[PAT303]

What I like is when they print misleading facts like price,I don't know how many times the price quoted has been for the base model but the one they are driving has all the options that cost an extra 20K but thats not written down. Pat

[Slunnie]

Jeez Harlie. :rolleyes:

I tend to think that if anything Overlander have been pretty supportive of Land Rover. I've chatted to quite a few of them, and although there are some old school people in there (and no, I'm not "in there"), the attitude has always been positive.

[FenianEel]

I don't think ANY of these mags show any true bias, or are particularly anti-Land Rover, not in the last few years.
Sure 5 or so years ago, they may have been, and you'd be lucky to see a green oval at all in the mags.

There may be more Nissan/Toyota content, but that's cause there are probably 10 times as many of those vehicles as Landies nowadays.

In Overlander / 4x4 Aus / 4WD Action, there are nearly always one or two articles on a Landy, or they are in a comparison.
Several of the staff of ALL these mags, are either current or past LR owners.
Several of them often praise Land Rovers and/or their history and heritage.

Of course there are some that think they are unreliable oil leakers, and always mention this, but a) who cares and b) they are in the minority.

[rmp]

Do I take from the posts above that rmp is actually associated with this publication? So would have a financial interest in shutting me up? Don’t see that declared, the connection to the business that publishes “errors”, and if these errors are that blind – what’s the point in reading it?


It's a pretty long bow to draw to say I've got a financial interest in Overlander, and it gets stretched further to conclude I (or anyone else) is trying to shut you up. Feel free to air your views here, that's what the forum is for. This has given me an idea for a blog post at least.

[Disco4SE]

I tend to think that all 4x4 magazines try to cater for the majority. If 60% (example only) of 4 wheel drivers own Toyotas, then they will try to feature Toyota in 60% of the vehicles in their magazine.
May be wrong. Just thinking logic.
Cheers, Craig

[rmp]

That's quite correct and that sort of bias, called "coverage bias" - towards the vehicles the readers want - is fine. What is not acceptable is when a certain type of vehicle is covered being unfair on it to support a pre-determined point of view. That's a different type of bias altogether. All magazines actively use coverage bias. This can lead readers to conclude they are "against" the lesser-used marques.

[rocmic]

While we are talking mags in general, three of us on the forum took part in 4WD Action test of the D4 in April last year. The article that resulted was not biased, although it did mention (as have a lot of other reviews) the issue of 19" wheels and tyre availability. Obviously at that time there was not the choice there is now.
The journo who wrote the article is/was a Land Rover owner.

From my reading of Overlander over the last few years it seems to me that there has been no overt bias towards or agains particular manufacturers. That said obvious mistakes do crop up, but I see that in the computing magazines I read as well and as was mentioned previously I think most of us are guilty of making mistakes.
Cheers
Mike

[RangieBit]

Hey there rmp,

I'm with you on the coverage bias thing. As others have said, we, the Land Rover fraternity, are in the minority in the market place. The fact that we have the superior vehicle is our own guilty little pleasure ;)

What does irk me though is the magazines giving otherwise glowing reviews to something like the D3/D4 and then picking on its wheels/tyres saying that they are a liability. While to a certain extent this may be true as tyre makers are v e r y slow to keep up with car makers on supply of "appropriate" rubber to meet the road/track it is not as big a demerit as they would have us believe.

I have yet to read any of the mainstream press bemoaning the fact that when things like the Toyo's top flagships went to 17" wheels, and there was a positive dearth of suitable tyres for them, it was a very bad thing. Yet strangely because the Disco's went up another inch (or two) all of a sudden that's a bad thing. That's real bias in my viewing.

Another example is the class leading technology LR came up with in Terrain Response. Yes, it was applauded in the mainstream press at the time. Interesting that Toyo's attempts to emulate it, badly (in my and some other more knowledgeable souls view), it is lauded as being the greatest thing since sliced bread on them. With little acknowledgement it is such a blatant rip-off of the technology. Goodness, it can't possibly be uttered that something on a Land Rover was not only good but so good they stole it. I have a quiet laugh to myself because as is said, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".

Now, I have been sniggered at many times for owning a modern Range Rover (with large diameter wheels and low sidewall profile tyres) and having the temerity to think I can use it off road. After successfully navigating the same Range Rover around Central Australia, the areas between the Simpson Desert and the Flinders Ranges without so much as a niggle OR a flat tyre, an area known to kill many vehicles bits, including tyres, over the years, I can quietly snigger to myself over the boasts of all those Toyo and Niss ads. What LR have created is a very civilised saloon car that hasn't lost much of it's 4WD ability. What the others are doing is taking their still rather agricultural 4WDs and trying to turn them into saloons. The difference is obvious.

Oh, there is also a great market for add-on bits for your other make 4WD. Yes, there are lots out there to keep a healthy after market supply chain running. I find it curious that all of these things have to be done to these supposed "tough" 4WDs in order to make them capable of some of the same things a LR can do straight off the showroom floor. It seems at best this is begrudgingly acknowledged in the press, and mentioned only in passing before moving on to some other great virtue to be extolled in these "other" brands.

I've owned examples of these other makes and yet I still come back to owning a LR. Yes, I have a bias, hereby acknowledged.

Seems to me though that no-one has really figured out the the Japanese are still only doing what they have always done. Take examples of good things and put there own stamp on them. In the road car stakes they have overtaken the market and provide some wonderful innovation and technology. I've seen it and applaud it. In the 4WD stakes they are still only playing catch up. That said, the pundits at LR had better keep on their game because the lead they've fought for 60 years is closing quickly.
I also freely acknowledge that we, the LR fraternity, got our kick start in just the same manner by taking what Willys/Ford had done during WWII and improving on it. While Jeep seemed content to rest upon its laurels, and they were good ones to rest on, LR took the ball and ran with it. They started to think outside the box some time ago and produced what has been described as the "best vehicle ever" in all manner of motoring press and kept coming up with ace cards.

Just my little rant/take on this all. Your views may differ. Viva la difference.

Cheers,
Iain

[OzV8]

I tend to think that all 4x4 magazines try to cater for the majority. If 60% (example only) of 4 wheel drivers own Toyotas, then they will try to feature Toyota in 60% of the vehicles in their magazine.
May be wrong. Just thinking logic.
Cheers, Craig

+1

And it's the same for the road cars too (Holden/Ford vs the rest). People write into Wheels/Motor complaining that THEIR Alfa (or TVR etc) doesn't get on every magazine cover. The editor points out that there are not enough of THEIR cars in the country to put a different one on the cover each month...and it goes on.

I used to read 4WD Action (when it was monthly) but stopped since it became the equivalent of day time TV advertorials. Still think Roothy should be Knighted.

[rmp]

Yes Terrain Response is by far the best of the adpative systems on the market, and I say that having just handed back a Grand Cherokee.

I said I'd write about bias and here it is. I've never posted a link to my own site before but I think I'll make an exception this time. I have also included a response to the 17/19 rim question.

Bias and journalism | Robert's Books (http://www.4wdhandbook.com/rmp/blog/motoring-journalism-bias)

[RangieBit]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for sharing your blog with us. In the tradition of all that is good in journalism (and doesn't that word journal meld nicely with the idea of a blog) it is a well considered piece. Well worth the read.

I have noted your observations and views on the wheel size issue. Thank you for taking the time to explore the question more thoroughly than has been done previously, at least to my knowledge anyway. I respect your thoughts and the reasoning.

Our perceptions are based on our observation and experiences in the real world through our personal daily travels. Your travels have, and always will be, different than mine. Regrettably, perception is reality. My perceived reality on the reporting of wheel size issues differs from yours. We'll leave it at that.

Cheers,
Iain

[jonesy63]

Hi Robert,
One of my daughters is doing journalism at Sydney Uni and I will make sure she reads your blog post. I think that is a great insight into the machinations of publications and reviews. :BigThumb:

Cheers,
Rob

[rmp]

Thanks Jonesy, it's really operations rather than machinations. Journalism isn't very well paid and those that do it for a living need to crank out articles quickly, and when that happens, mistakes creep or even come galloping in. Also, we're discussing here a specialist topic. When a non-specialist writes on such a topic they can omit known to experts, and any regular here is an expert on D3/D4s by comparison to just about any journo.

[connock]

I only read Landrover owner international and land rover enthusiast so even the adds are interesting and related to the green oval.
Name another 4x4 that has a, sorry a couple of mags dedicated to one make and avaliable world wide? ALWAYS a great read.

connock

[jonesfam]

RMP
I enjoyed reading your blog, it was interesting & educational.
I have a question for you though & I am in no way implying that you would do this.
I have read Newspaper reviews of cars that are, in the main, word for word copies of the sales brochure that the the car company gives you when you enquire about buying the car.
Is that journalism or advertorial?
Either way it is bloody annoying! I'm looking for another opinion, not the cars companies.
Anyway, a great read & thankfully I believe most journo's are doing the best they can in a very competitive & time short environment.
Jonesfam

[85 county]

That's quite correct and that sort of bias, called "coverage bias" - towards the vehicles the readers want - is fine. What is not acceptable is when a certain type of vehicle is covered being unfair on it to support a pre-determined point of view. That's a different type of bias altogether. All magazines actively use coverage bias. This can lead readers to conclude they are "against" the lesser-used marques.
Interesting thread.

If we were to take for example a person with little or no knowledge of 4x4s and was looking into the topic, I would think that your publication and others are usually there first and main source of information.

Now If understand it correctly, your publication stated that a second battery was installed in the cargo area of a disco because there was no room under the bonnet. A statement that is clearly not correct. in addition to I think some other incorrect comments about the center diff and rear dif. Well personally I would have grave doubts about your reporter’s abilities to understand the basics of what he/she is employed to do. I would have further worries about this person’s ability to not put your publication/business at risk. Since this persons ability or lack of ability to understand some rather simple points and worse your publications inability to catch these errors before going to print. what systems or mechanisms do you have in place to prevent a similar basic error making it to print but there the manufacture of that particular vehicle takes offence and decides to fight it out in court ( they have more money than you so you lose)?

[rmp]

RMP
I enjoyed reading your blog, it was interesting & educational.
I have a question for you though & I am in no way implying that you would do this.
I have read Newspaper reviews of cars that are, in the main, word for word copies of the sales brochure that the the car company gives you when you enquire about buying the car.
Is that journalism or advertorial?
Either way it is bloody annoying! I'm looking for another opinion, not the cars companies.
Anyway, a great read & thankfully I believe most journo's are doing the best they can in a very competitive & time short environment.
Jonesfam

It's pure laziness, and it's inexcusable.

However, the journo may not be entirely at fault. If they are under extreme time pressure that may be all they can do, and the publisher may not be investing in the sort of quality needed for decent analysis on the basis the reader need not know the review is just the PR. So the fault is likely to be more than that of the person whose name is the byline.

But for me, it's inexcusable and it's not journalism.

[85 county]

now that i have read your blog and following posts i think you have answered every thing, though i still have concerns

[rmp]

Interesting thread.

If we were to take for example a person with little or no knowledge of 4x4s and was looking into the topic, I would think that your publication and others are usually there first and main source of information.

Now If understand it correctly, your publication stated that a second battery was installed in the cargo area of a disco because there was no room under the bonnet. A statement that is clearly not correct. in addition to I think some other incorrect comments about the center diff and rear dif. Well personally I would have grave doubts about your reporter’s abilities to understand the basics of what he/she is employed to do. I would have further worries about this person’s ability to not put your publication/business at risk. Since this persons ability or lack of ability to understand some rather simple points and worse your publications inability to catch these errors before going to print. what systems or mechanisms do you have in place to prevent a similar basic error making it to print but there the manufacture of that particular vehicle takes offence and decides to fight it out in court ( they have more money than you so you lose)?

First of all let's clear up "my publication" and "my reporter". A freelance journalist such as myself has no control whatsoever over articles he does not write, nor any control over the magazine's direction. I take responsibility for articles I write, not others, and I had no part whatsoever in this piece.

That said, I will answer the question. I don't disagree with the basic premise which is that writers should know their subject very well and that magazines are and should be trusted sources of advice. I have mentioned this in my blog. However, there are limits to what even a specialist offroad journo can be expected to know about a given vehicle., and people here know more about the Discos than just about any journo.

The question then becomes where do you draw the line, and as you quite rightly say, what mechanisms are there in place to check facts and correct errors. As that piece was a custom feature I will explain how those are created, and the process varies according to the journalist and the publication.

The way I work is that I will do the photography myself, spending a day with the owner and car, get specs from the owner, go over the car in detail with the owner. I may well do some extra research for interest or if the supplied stats look odd. I also typically lurk on forums for a while to see what others are doing with the same car if I'm not familiar with it. I then write the story, select the pics, write captions and send it to the owner for a check. If he's happy with it then it gets submitted. From there I lose control and next time I see it is in print. I have never worked in a magazine's head office so cannot say what goes on there.

I also give the owner a copy of the shots with the proviso no commercial use. They are typically happy with 200 or so pro shots of their car and proud to show it off anyway. Custom car owners are not paid. I would if I could, but it simply is not economically viable.

I know that some journos simply get an emailed list of specs and write the words straight off that without even talking to the owner, and the first the owner sees is the car in the mag. I think that's wrong and doesn't make for a good story or one free from errors, but I know why they do it, because it’s cheaper and given the pay rates for journos, if you made a full-time living out of it that’s what you’d need to do. I do this part-time, so I can afford to take the time to do what I consider a decent job.

The chances of a manufacturer taking a magazine to court are slim unless the mag really gets it wrong and fails to acknowledge that. The last big stoush was when Wheels or was it Motor rolled a Kluger. Toyota weren't overly fussed about the broken Kluger, but they were very much bothered about their reputation.

[rmp]

now that i have read your blog and following posts i think you have answered every thing, though i still have concerns

That's fine, my intent is not to defend practices or allay concerns but to explain.

The wider issue here is the gap between the quality readers demand and the price they are willing to pay for content. This is something the media industry in general is struggling with, as budgets are slashed, quality suffers, readership drops and a vicious circle ensues.

[RangieBit]

<snipped> This is something the media industry in general is struggling with, as budgets are slashed, quality suffers, readership drops and a vicious circle ensues.

Indeed Robert,

Regrettably it is not just the media industry that is suffering under these pressures either. It seems that we let the lunatics (bean counters) take over the asylum many years ago and the world as we know it has been heading for hell in a hand basket ever since. I have worked in IT for many years now and have seen first hand the havoc that can be wrought when a red pen is wielded without due regard to the clientele.

I believe the staff of most publications are doing the best they can in a very challenging environment. As you rightly observe errors and omissions creep in and we all seem quick to pounce without understanding the complete picture.

With the magazine buying public becoming very conscious of their own economic pressures, their tastes become keener and their eye more critical.

If we (the readership/public) are having less of the $$'s to spend we tend to be more discerning in where we spend it. This often means that the standard for any given publication actually needs to improve to maintain the readership. A demand which is at odds with diminishing resources available to a publication to achieve its outcomes.

This may be part of the reason we sometimes perceive a bias. The magazine is endeavouring to cater to its largest marque (or mass market) audience. The vicious cycle is greatest here as advertising is often charged based on readership/circulation. The greater the base the higher the mag can charge for the space. If the readership drops, so does the magazines ability to demand a premium for its space. With the drop in advertising income the ability to maintain the quality is brought under greater pressure. If the quality drops, the readership drops, and so the cycle continues. Sometimes ever downward into oblivion.

I don't believe there are any simple solutions to any of this. I know for certain I don't have any (simple or otherwise). I think a heightened level of awareness cannot be a bad thing along the way though.

I think you have done an excellent job of providing greater insight and education here. For that I thank you, for taking the time and effort. It is appreciated.

Cheers,
Iain

[85 county]

That's fine, my intent is not to defend practices or allay concerns but to explain.

The wider issue here is the gap between the quality readers demand and the price they are willing to pay for content. This is something the media industry in general is struggling with, as budgets are slashed, quality suffers, readership drops and a vicious circle ensues.

i understand all that, i think different industry's have all gone or go though the same story. i doint blame the accountants i blame the investment bankers and investors, people who rightly want a return but invest in something they have little knowledge of.

if a business publication miss printed say a share price with lead to some investors losing money then they could take that publication to court.
If you publication states some inaccurate information about a vehicle. then wouldn't you be open to action from that vehicles manufacture?

another idea. since so many news items are actually provided by a producer ( free advertising) how muct of your publication is provided by manufactures or suppliers? excluding clear advertising.

[rmp]

In theory yes it could be sued but the award would be proportional to the loss suffered. It would be hard to argue that a misprint of a specifcation or saying a second battery couldn't be fitted had any meaningful effect on sales. If the review was highly negative then yes there'd be a case, but very few if any mag reviews are so unfairly critical the manufacturers would have a case, or could be bothered taking it to court and the publicity even if they won would merely highlight the car's faults anyway. So pretty low risk from car manuacturers.

Again, Overlander is not "my" publication. None of my stories anywhere are reprints of press releases. I cannot speak for other writers. I do use subject matter experts but the words are mine, not theirs.

[85 county]

Again, Overlander is not "my" publication. None of my stories anywhere are reprints of press releases. I cannot speak for other writers. I do use subject matter experts but the words are mine, not theirs.

thanks
i will rephrase the question as i didn't actually mean you yourself.
like newspapers and interest storys which you can basically write your self and send in as a form of free advertising. how much of this sort of thing do you think is going on in the 4x4 mags.

a bit like a bush medic saying i got here in time to safe a life thank you Toyota. the story being written by a Toyota employee and is sent to a number of news papers. i used to do this myself ( odiously i paid for some one to actually write what i wanted) and send them off, there was always a great pickup by the papers and a corresponding pick up in revenue for me.

[rmp]

thanks
i will rephrase the question as i didn't actually mean you yourself.
like newspapers and interest storys which you can basically write your self and send in as a form of free advertising. how much of this sort of thing do you think is going on in the 4x4 mags.

a bit like a bush medic saying i got here in time to safe a life thank you Toyota. the story being written by a Toyota employee and is sent to a number of news papers. i used to do this myself ( odiously i paid for some one to actually write what i wanted) and send them off, there was always a great pickup by the papers and a corresponding pick up in revenue for me.

OK I see what you mean. Sometimes that happens but it's quite rare. However I have experience only in one narrow, niche sector so have little idea of other markets. Far more common is the suckup article written by a journo which is simply advertorial. Really hate that.

[NauticAl]

Robert

I am a new SE D4 owner, although I have a 6.5 Chev engined D1 that I have owned since is was a new 2.5 TDI model. I am a newcomer to the AULRO site and I am working steadily through all the D3/D4 threads. There is a lot of information here.

Your blog and comments on motor journalsim have been most illuminating (for many of us, i am sure) and I thank you for the time you have taken to make them.

Cheers

Al

[DiscoWeb]

Thanks to rmp, 85 County, RangieBit and others, this has been an enjoyable and well reasoned thread to read.

Having said that there is one elephant in the room.

As I previously posted, I enjoy reading a number of the 4wd mags published and think that there is probably only one that seems to have a consistently negative slant towards LR, or more specifically the D3 or D4.

However, we (collectively) have not acknowledged the obvious BIAS, as members and participants of this forum have towards LR and the D3/D4 in particular.

As Robert notes there would be precious few journos who could or would know as much about these vehicle as most on this forum. Most have a reasonable sum invested and are passionate (or passionate enough to post or troll this site) about their choice of make and model.

Ask me about the ability to locate a third battery in a LC200 and there would be a scratching of the head.

If I was a journo and a guy who had tricked out his LC 200 subsequently told me why he had located his 3rd battery in the left hand rear passenger wheel well etc, I for one would probably accept that, making the assumption he knew his vehicle and it limitations.

Bias, laziness or just human nature I am not sure but as one of the oldest sayings go - DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.

Again, an enjoyable and well reasoned thread, and Robert thanks for taking the time to make you points clear.

Much appreciated.

George

[85 county]

i doint often get a 4X4 mag, some times if theres a trip report or something else of intrest.

on thing i notice is there is never much on older vehicles unless they belong to Ruthy?

i know of a great Isuzu county thay would be of intrest as well as it decade ++ development into the tour vehicle it is. or another Isuzu that is a daly driver and is required to follow large earth moving equipment though mud clay etc.

both these owners and there vehicles would make great story's. but since they wouldn't bolster sales of any mark

[rmp]

i doint often get a 4X4 mag, some times if theres a trip report or something else of intrest.

on thing i notice is there is never much on older vehicles unless they belong to Ruthy?

i know of a great Isuzu county thay would be of intrest as well as it decade ++ development into the tour vehicle it is. or another Isuzu that is a daly driver and is required to follow large earth moving equipment though mud clay etc.

both these owners and there vehicles would make great story's. but since they wouldn't bolster sales of any mark

Magazines certainly run stories about old vehicles, I did quite a few myself. While not necessarily a factor, a bit of history gives a marque an air of history which translates into credbility and sales. Jeep's current 70-years campaign is an example. Not every story is written with advertisers in mind, but every story is written with the readers in mind.

Whether the editor has guessed correctly about the reader is another matter entirely.