LPG "jerry can" - are they legal/practical?

[pfillery]

I saw an interesting website article about the difficulties when you run out of LPG particularly on an LPG only vehicle. They suggested the use of an LPG jerry can, simply a 6 to 9kg barbeque gas bottle with a hose and adaptor to fit onto the standard car fill point. I was a little skeptical at first but it seems there are a lot of videos showing this being done.

My first thoughts were that the gas is not the same, I had thought it was a different mix for a bbq as it was for a car, or are they the same stuff?

Then, whether the use of such devices is safe and/or legal. So I did a search and found an Australian LPG parts supplier who sells a POL to LPG fill point adaptor, and touts that is is useful when filling the vehicle from a tank such as a bbq gas bottle, aparently when you do it you turn the gas bottle upside down so the liquid gas goes in, and assuming your car tank is empty, you will be able to transfer almost all the gas from the bottle out to the car.

Great idea if it worked both ways and you could also fill the gas bottle from the LPG pump using the same adaptor setup, however I don't think that would be legal (though I'm sure it is done).

Has anyone seen this sort of thing used in australia and is it legal and practical? seems like a good idea for long distance travellers etc.

[weeds]

I saw an interesting website article about the difficulties when you run out of LPG particularly on an LPG only vehicle. They suggested the use of an LPG jerry can, simply a 6 to 9kg barbeque gas bottle with a hose and adaptor to fit onto the standard car fill point. I was a little skeptical at first but it seems there are a lot of videos showing this being done. it could be done but you would need to tranfer as a liquid

My first thoughts were that the gas is not the same, I had thought it was a different mix for a bbq as it was for a car, or are they the same stuff? yes different gas although LGP for BBQ's and heater from memory would a better quality gas than automotove and would imagine a lot more expensive.....i wonder how a car would run on it

Then, whether the use of such devices is safe and/or legal. So I did a search and found an Australian LPG parts supplier who sells a POL to LPG fill point adaptor, and touts that is is useful when filling the vehicle from a tank such as a bbq gas bottle, aparently when you do it you turn the gas bottle upside down so the liquid gas goes in, and assuming your car tank is empty, you will be able to transfer almost all the gas from the bottle out to the car. you can buy just about anything......however this would be illegal..............full stop

Great idea if it worked both ways and you could also fill the gas bottle from the LPG pump using the same adaptor setup, however I don't think that would be legal (though I'm sure it is done). yes can be done but illegal

Has anyone seen this sort of thing used in australia and is it legal and practical? seems like a good idea for long distance travellers etci have done it befroe? done similar although not for automotive use, only because my employer forgot to pack de-canting cylinders
legal?...NO
practical?..... not really
good idea for long distance travel?......NO, plan your trip and set the vehical up to suit


your're playing with fire on this one......

[bee utey]

It is legal to carry an up to 9kg vapour bottle, properly secured, in a passenger vehicle, but not recommended.

It is legal to carry a hose to connect it to your vehicle filling point.

It is totally illegal to use auto gas in a vapour withdrawal domestic bottle, or to fill it at a servo with a "cheat" adaptor. Big fines territory.

Pure propane runs great in cars, some servos make a point of selling exactly that. Google "propane auto lpg". I believe Supa Gas do it.

In an emergency you can maybe get someone to come out with a bbq bottle and decant enough into the vehicle to get it going. In ideal conditions you will get around 10% of a tank-full before transfer stops. This is when your vehicle has ceased to have any power at all, ie it has stopped and you are a traffic hazard.

But it is illegal to use a vapour bottle when inverted.

If you completely invert a used bbq bottle, the dross that collects in the bottom of the bottle will migrate into the inlet plumbing of your gas system, causing the non-return valves and AFL to fail. Gas leaks and over filling then cause more hazards.

The simplest way to manage LPG-only cars is forward planning. The next best way (100% legal) is to install twin tanks, say one large and one small, with separate fillers and switching. This way you have much more control over how far you travel on a load of LPG, i.e. your "jerry can" is a legally installed part of the vehicle gas system. This is the method I have used for the last 25 years. Automotive LPG cylinders are made down to 18 litres capacity, for diesel enhancement applications.

[101RRS]

Of course if a properly designed system rather than these backyard jobs were to be developed and approved that you could fill from an LPG bowser and using a proper hose connected to the LPG filler of your car then it would be quite safe - certainly as safe as filling petrol from a jerry. Would be even safer if the equipment has to get a gas certificate each year like the system in your car or van.

[bee utey]

Of course if a properly designed system rather than these backyard jobs were to be developed and approved that you could fill from an LPG bowser and using a proper hose connected to the LPG filler of your car then it would be quite safe - certainly as safe as filling petrol from a jerry. Would be even safer if the equipment has to get a gas certificate each year like the system in your car or van.

The cost for a dedicated and certified system would be prohibitive ($1000+), only worth it for breakdown vans. You would only be able to carry it ouside of a passenger space, such as a gas bottle locker in a camper or tradies van.

There is currently no legal method of guaranteeing the correct filling level of a LPG cylinder which is not secured to a vehicle, other than by bleed filling a BBQ bottle or by weight. Neither which is performed by Joe Public. Far better cost wise for an individual (not a company) to risk the law for the 5 minutes it takes to transfer enough gas out of a swap-and-go bottle.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Many taxi bases in Sydney have a 9Kg decanting bottle.

Not legal, but much cheaper than towing a dead taxi back to a servo.

Planning ahead????? Many taxi drivers (at least in Sydney) are unable to plan ahead without their GPS and NavMan doesn't do a LPG watch.

[richard4u2]

in w.a. it is illeagal to carry a gas bottle larger then a 4.5 kg in enclosed area
we have gas stations manly in the country where they fill cars and bbq gas bottles from the same tank
a decanting bottle the gas is drawn from the bottom of the bottle via a tube

[pfillery]

Would be even safer if the equipment has to get a gas certificate each year like the system in your car or van.

Not in Qld you don't. Every 10 years only as per the dating on the tank, and that only applies to the tank, not the install. As long as the system is working, a system can be 20 years old and only ever been "inspected" when installed from new, with the exception of the tank itself.

[Landover]

When I worked at a servo 25 odd years ago we used to fill the gas bottle filling cylinder from the car LPG tank so I assumed it was the same gas for both. I don't know if gas and regulations have changed in resent years but I might be a criminal and did not even know it.

[p38arover]

Not in Qld you don't. Every 10 years only as per the dating on the tank, and that only applies to the tank, not the install. As long as the system is working, a system can be 20 years old and only ever been "inspected" when installed from new, with the exception of the tank itself.

In NSW, if the vehicle is fitted with LPG, the whole system has to be inspected annually by a vehicle inspector who is qualified for LPG. However, I wonder if this applies to car under three years old as they no longer require an annual rego check.

When my RR was inspected the time before last, the inspector found an LPG leak from the converter.

The tanks have to be inspected internally every 10 years and restamped.

[Davehoos]

just regoed my 06 falcon.130 000Km travelled 25K in last 6 months.
payed on line with no inspection.bit disapointed as I planed a day intown.

not very common out of taxi industry for the jerycan fill.
I sold my hose to a mate thinking i could get more-when the LPG installers rules changed lots of manual transfer pump came up on ebay.one a few months ago in goulburne went more than i could pay.

you cant fill from BBQ/forklift bottle unless you runout of fuel or have a pump.Been planning to make one from big A/C pump with lots of filters.
when i bought the previous falcon it had no gas as it was a wreck.i had to decant from a 145L wagon tank sitting in the sun enough to drive the 40Km to a bowser.

adaptors are common in europe due to different fillers in different countries.the acme filler is often refered to the motor home BBQ filler.
transfer pump ex india sells for $250.flamable gas needs to be in a special vented container-but i dont think there is a workcover tag to cover this.

[sadbenn]

I reckon you wont be able to by LPG at the Bowser any more in Country towns in the future. You just have to look at the amount of Prius taxis around now
Had one of those LPG falcons and it was a pain in regional areas
Why do we have to buy LPG and then send Natural gas over seas to prop up China
How many new service stations Have LPG installed
And Belive me its a pain trying to find people to work on LPG equipment out of Brisbane
:eek:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I reckon you wont be able to by LPG at the Bowser any more in Country towns in the future. You just have to look at the amount of Prius taxis around now
Had one of those LPG falcons and it was a pain in regional areas
Why do we have to buy LPG and then send Natural gas over seas to prop up China
How many new service stations Have LPG installed
And Belive me its a pain trying to find people to work on LPG equipment out of Brisbane
:eek:Outside major cities the Pious has no place, the health services in Dubbo wanted to do their bit for the environment so purchased a number of Pious, of all the cars in the fleet (Toyota Corolla and Ford Focus) the Pious had the worst fuel economy. The reason, once you go not much over 60KPH you are running on petrol with the engine flat out.

If you live in a city with hours of bumper to bumper traffic and the car is used in that traffic every day, in the CBD and rarely gets to go over 70KPH then there's a reason to use a Pious or Camry Hybrid etc.

BTW have you heard about diesel-gas? It's LPG fumigated on top of diesel, many B-Double semis run on the stuff, it makes the diesel burn more efficiently in the combustion chamber, saving money and increasing performance of the truck. If only for that reason I believe we will still find LPG in major regional centres along the major highways.

[Davo]

I've got an old leaflet somewhere that explains why you don't use automotive gas for domestic purposes such as your kitchen stove. Apparently auto gas will give off a gas, ( I think it's carbon monoxide?), whereas domestic gas is of course safe for indoors. Can any experts comment on this one?

Back more on topic, the big question is obviously how much of a risk do you want to take. Refuelling from a jerry-can full of petrol is dodgy enough - it only takes one spark from static electricity to do you in - and with gas you'd really want a perfect system. How would you check it before each use? Personally, I'd be changing my undies after every refill like this.

[bee utey]

I've got an old leaflet somewhere that explains why you don't use automotive gas for domestic purposes such as your kitchen stove. Apparently auto gas will give off a gas, ( I think it's carbon monoxide?), whereas domestic gas is of course safe for indoors. Can any experts comment on this one?

Back more on topic, the big question is obviously how much of a risk do you want to take. Refuelling from a jerry-can full of petrol is dodgy enough - it only takes one spark from static electricity to do you in - and with gas you'd really want a perfect system. How would you check it before each use? Personally, I'd be changing my undies after every refill like this.

Yes, burning autogas (a mixture of propane and butane) in a domestic stove will cause incomplete combustion as it is not jetted for the different mix. Carbon monoxide results.

In some ways filling LPG is safer than petrol as you make the connection fully before pulling the handle. This way static electricity is already neutralised before you have a potential leak to ignite. Safety is about checking your hoses and valves so that in case of a problem you can easily get to a safe shut-off away from the leaking gas. In the case of a "jerry can" of LPG I would have at least 1.2m of hose to the filler connector and a quick action ball valve at each end. Not hard to organise.

[isuzurover]

BTW have you heard about diesel-gas? It's LPG fumigated on top of diesel, many B-Double semis run on the stuff, it makes the diesel burn more efficiently in the combustion chamber, saving money and increasing performance of the truck. If only for that reason I believe we will still find LPG in major regional centres along the major highways.

Not really, that is just marketing BS. You get more power because overall you burn more fuel (in terms of calorific value).

I have never (personally) seen a long distance truck with it fitted.

I am not saying it doesn't have its place, however don't expect broad uptake of diesel-lpg systems by the trucking industry.

[bee utey]

Not really, that is just marketing BS. You get more power because overall you burn more fuel (in terms of calorific value).

I have never (personally) seen a long distance truck with it fitted.

I am not saying it doesn't have its place, however don't expect broad uptake of diesel-lpg systems by the trucking industry.

It is not BS, however the effect is small, too small for some people who have to pay full price for diesel gas systems. Burning around 20% of the total fuel consumption, lower-calorific-value LPG replaces the diesel litre for litre. Also EGT's on dual fuel are lower than for diesel only at a given power output. You may quibble at the percentages but the effect is real.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

There are people with diesel gas systems on Discos and Defenders in my club (& on this forum), their comments are that with the diesel gas fitted, their exhaust pipe is light grey rather than black, they don't put out the puffs of blcak smoke when changing under load, their range/endurance is now well over 1000 Km and the cost/distance is lower than diesel only. They also say they can stay in gear longer (before changing down) on D/G than on D alone.

Wishfull thinking I don't know, but I do know the exhaust pipe is white/grey like you see on a well tuned petrol engine.

[Davehoos]

Untill now it was against design rules for internal pump in a LPG container,this has now changed and i cant see any reason why a small pump system cant be manufactured for service refueling.
I regularly have to refuel diesel plant and these are not cheep.

euro diesels are running up to 50% CNG and these cars sold in australia are running similar amounts of LPG.worked on a few that ran more than 30%

I was parked at a servo on a highway and had a B-double Fox que up to fill a very large gas tank,he stuggled to get into possition with the line up of cars,then when filled he had to be guided out in reverse.the station simply not set up for large vehicles.

lots of good systems.dungog has a good system.
doesnt matter how calorific it is its the cost and emisions that count.
In 1940's 75 000 gasifiers was used inn australia due to shortages of petrol.

prius.several around here.government indentities has a mandatory purchase quota for alt powered vehicles not based on any rational thought.its like QLD with the number of cyl tax.victoria has a compulsary hybred deal for taxi lience,also not based on any ration idea.mate has a plug in version--this will definatly never pay for itself.

Its like a gas falcon-they have built it but dont provide any service network or infrastructure.too busy trying to do deals that have ended up in a second rate product that its hard to keep on the road.
they realy dont sell products that the market might want in case they dont and dont try incase they do undestand it.

Ive had 4 factory falcons.they have that unfinish product feel.I loved the japanese bluebird gas vehicles,I wanted a 200B GAS but find hard to get one locally that not rusted,the reason they didnt sell,they didnt build enough,and why would you print service and parts material that called the tank a bomb.
Then they cant understand why they dont sell more.

[p38arover]

I have never (personally) seen a long distance truck with it fitted.

I am not saying it doesn't have its place, however don't expect broad uptake of diesel-lpg systems by the trucking industry.

I have seen a number of prime movers being fitted with it at Diesel Gas Technologies here in Sydney.

[bee utey]

Untill now it was against design rules for internal pump in a LPG container,this has now changed and i cant see any reason why a small pump system cant be manufactured for service refueling.


I have an old tank manufactured in 1990 or thereabouts with an internal EFI pump which was built for liquid injection by a local company called Carmtrol. Sadly the seal for the pump assembly is unavailable so I can't get it tested. The tank makes a neat refuelling system. The liquid injection fuel pumps are just an upgraded version of the ones used for petrol, with ceramic bearings as the lpg liquid doesn't lube well. If you want a small liquid injection pumped tank talk to Orbital Autogas, they are developing liquid injection for quite a few newish cars. Betcha it will still cost around $1K though, lots for a "jerrycan".

[Davo]

and why would you print service and parts material that called the tank a bomb.


They did what??? :D

[Davehoos]

official translation for a gas tank is BOMB.its to do with the shape.

the official advertising calls it a bomb.the parts book called it a bomb.and the customer was told that the bomb needed to replace every 10 years.
the clever gents at nissan then offered rear bull bar [they have another name for it] incorperating a tow bar but dont offer one to the front..just makes you want to buy one.the only cars i saw in newcastle sydney was common safety yellow,basic cars with after thought black sticker LPG.
the cars on ebay recently was higher lever auto white or blue.

then as these are victorian in the 1980's to get gas you have to make apointments to fill these outside of major cities and often the price has to be guessed at calculated from a flow meter reading.like driving in the outback.

the bomb fitted in the trunk behind the seat and replaces the petrol tank inside a saftey sheild,if you havnt seen the early import tanks up to late 80's they are inside a second skin firmly bolted to the floor.the axcess housing is alloy.it has glass saftey sheild to look at the gauge and test numbers.

[Davehoos]

sorry its a BOMBE.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/1303.jpg

you notice the date is 1979.the 910 bluebird was alread out when australia was building 200B.the japanese versions had Z18 engines and not the locally made L20B.

the tank wa updated in 85 and 89.the last BOMBE was similar to modern tank..production of 910 finished in 92.japanes built these for 13yrs in large numbers.they offered several different engine versions including diesel.

just that here they dont bother getting things to work.