Chev V8 Diesel to Isuzu MSA

[123rover50]

Well I have gone off auto boxes. I originally put the auto in to make it easier to do the gear shift in the 6x6 FC but I have had problems.As I posted before the 4L80 is too high in first so I have decided to replace it with a MSA. With this box I can do a cable shift.
Dellows have nearly finished casting a new flywheel and flywheel housing to mate the 6.2 Chev with the SAE no 3 of the MSA.
However one of my problems is in the clutch slave on the MSA fouls the Chev starter motor. Should I cut holes in the bellhousing to put it elsewhere. or can I put the slave behind instead of in front or should I go for a Tilton hydraulic release bearing?
Didiman

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Well I have gone off auto boxes. <snip>
Dellows have nearly finished casting a new flywheel and flywheel housing to mate the 6.2 Chev with the SAE no 3 of the MSA....
<snip>
DidimanIf you have some of the adapter manufactures do anything, check their work for alignment and for square! They had at least one batch of Holden/Land Rover adapters that were out of alignment in 3 planes!

[123rover50]

I will check it out . It should be here this week. I will build my own slave adaptor as not too keen on having to split the box/engine if the hydraulic release bearing fails. I will post some pics if anyone interested.

[123rover50]

Well here it is. Newly cast flywheel and housing. Pressure plate, driven plate, spigot bush and bolt etc.
Over the next few weeks I will pull out the 4L80 and fit the MSA then the LT95 Tbox etc. The remote gearchange may take some time, also the adaptor and transfer shafts etc.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/950.jpg

[123rover50]

Somewhere here I have to find space to install a gear lever and a clutch pedal.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/908.jpg

[clubagreenie]

I can recommend the tilton release bearing. Compact and easy to bleed, never had an issue with them.

[123rover50]

Removed the transfer gears to get to the bolts that connect the T box to the adaptor housing. Dropped the T box off then the 4L80.
Notice that Ritters TRB installation of the intermediate shaft uses a one piece shaft that goes right through. I asked about this and they said its stronger as the Army had some issues with the 2 piece shaft that went into the blind pocket.
I had not heard of any problems. Has any one else?
I would like to know as I have to make up my mind as to go with the Ritter shaft or go with the standard shaft and sleeve.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/537.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/538.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/539.jpg

[TwoUp]

123rover50,
I have a 6.5 chev in one of my Defenders. For the manual gearbox I had to cut the bell housing and have the starter on the passenger side.

I now have a 4L80E auto in. I had Wholesale Auto in Melb build it and give it a lower first and second. Works well pulling a heavy trailer and to date I have not used low range since installing.

Regards,
PeterW

[123rover50]

They built mine too. Now they tell me they can put in lower gears but too late now. It cost $6000 so not going to spend any more on it. This truck weighs nearly 5 tonne so going manual and will sell the 4L80. Its not auto but been converted to manual shift.

[TwoUp]

This is my first auto and I do have reservations at the moment. I am still dialing in the speed etc to set the changes in gears and when it locks up. It isn't that easy to get right. I have it good for normal and highway work, but laoded with a gal trailer full it either revs hard or labours, even though I have changed the settings quite a bit. I can have multiple settings and change between them as desired, but am aiming for a set and forget situation.

Will continue to develop though. As you said the cost is high. Unfortunately there isn't many like this to compare, or learn from prior to install.

Regards,
PeterW

[SheldonA]

Isuzu MSA to LT95 coming along....

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/thegrubb1/IMAG0045.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/thegrubb1/IMAG0043.jpg


Keith, the support bracket is 50X50 Angle offset about 130mm south of the centre line.

[123rover50]

Looks good Sheldon. The fixing bolt at 6 o clock is 155 mm from centre so should be OK

[123rover50]

4L80 out now. Big heavy lump of a thing. Its certainly a strong box.
Just as well this truck sits high, heaps of room to slide it out.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/502.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/503.jpg

[123rover50]

Getting the "new" transfer box ready for Sheldons adaptor housing by transferring the mounting hole positions from the 4L80 adaptor.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/359.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/11/410.jpg

[123rover50]

Finally decided where the gearstick is to go. Not much option really. The two cables curve down in front of the engine and will lead back to the box when I get it in.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/188.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/189.jpg

[123rover50]

Picked up The Grubbs housing this week. Looks good. Sat the LT 95 T Box on it to see what it looks like. Had to put it all in for a dummy run to get the T Box level with the chassis mounts before I drill the bolt holes joining the T Box to the adapter housing.
Cant do much more untill the engineer in Gympie gets the splined shaft done. Said call back tuesday.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1017.jpg

[123rover50]

Picked up the shaft yesterday. Gave it a spin in the lathe and it runs true.
Looks strong as well and I guess the weak point will be the mainshaft gear splines. The engineer said coarse splines like that are for slow speed like a tractor PTO. High speed splines should be fine like the ones he has fitted.
If the mainshaft gear flogs out again I will have him make a new fine spline shaft and cut out the gear centre and fit a fine spline to suit. Has to be a better way of secureing than that circlip surely.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/744.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/745.jpg

[123rover50]

Got the MSA bolted up to the Dellows adaptor. Next step is gear linkage , clutch, and driveshafts.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/456.jpg
The Grubbs LT 95 adaptor is on with studs and bolt holes drilled. Have to drill new holes for the T box to chassis mounts as 90 mm shorter than the 4L80 and 20 mm shorter than the T 700 positions.

[123rover50]

No room for a clutch pedalbox but since removing the two transmission oil coolers I have room in front so drilled a hole in floor and put in pedal like a series one.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/421.jpg
Made a little rocker arrangement with a nylon bush in it so have a straight shaft. This goes to a reworked Isuzu clutch arm and pivot. Picking up the sleeved master tomorrow.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/422.jpg

[123rover50]

All this thinking takes a lot of time. Everything is a tight fit. This shows the clutch master and linkage. The two heavy cables are the gear change.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/372.jpg
This is the other end of the gear change. New brackets made up to hold the outers but they will fit on the shifter OK with an extension to the side one.
The slave is where the starter is so cut and bent the arm and made a new bracket outboard of the starter a bit.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/373.jpg

[123rover50]

Well I feel a bit down today. Went to fire it up and the starter made this terrible graunching sound. Pulled it off and there were metal shards all over the place.
Suspected ring gear so took an impression and compared it with the 4L80E flex plate. Not the same. Rang Dellows. No one knows how the wrong ring gear got put on the Chev flywheel.
No option but to pull everything out again.

[123rover50]

Dellows have been very co-operative. After talking to them Fri AM they offered to send up a new ring gear. I was not to confident in shrinking it on so they machined up another flywheel with ring gear and got it away by Fri PM.
Fingers Crossed.

[rovercare]

Never fun:( at their cost one would hope!

[123rover50]

Flywheel still has not arrived yet but according to tracking its in Kingaroy.
In the meantime because I have cut the front off the LT95 its lost the mainshaft bearing retainer lip. So with the circlip on one side I milled some recesses, drilled some holes and made some retainers from mudguard washers.
How much thrust will be on this bearing anyway?

[123rover50]

New flywheel and ring gear arrived. Fitted it yesterday and spun the starter to make sure all OK before I offered up the box. Should have done that last time. Connected up the box and linkage all OK so far. Today bleed the clutch, start up and try the box in all gears before bolting up the TBox. The MSA coming from a wrecker is a bit of a Pig in a Poke so fingers crossed.

[123rover50]

Isnt this fun. Spent all day trying to get the clutch to work. Pulled the pedal linkage to bits and welded on another inch to make sure I am getting max stroke of the master. The slave is not getting the movement enough to disengage the clutch even though both are NPR. The Chev and NPR are both 11" clutches but perhaps the Chev pressure plate needs more stroke. Tomorrow I will fit a Disco slave I have. Its 22mm against the NPR 25mm so will have a bit longer stroke. Cant think of anything else to do.

[clubagreenie]

Smaller OD, longer stroke with same volume will give you more stroke for same travel at pedal won't it? Possibly move the piston retaining circlip out some with some machining of a new grove?.

[123rover50]

Thanks. I didnt think anyone was reading this. Funny but neither the Disco or Isuzu slave have a circlip.
The Isuzu slave has adjustment to keep the bearing just off the diaphram fingers but the Rover ones dont which makes me think they are in contact and spinning all the time, and self adjusting.

[rovercare]

How's the bleeding? If you have an awkward piping rout this will give heaps of grief

I'm watching

[clubagreenie]

So they rely on the fact that no one will drive it to the point that it will require to travel far enough to push the piston beyond it's range of travel to keep it in the cylinder. Sounds like an accountant saved 0.03c by not cutting a groove and supplying a circlip.

[SheldonA]

<SNIP> Tomorrow I will fit a Disco slave I have. Its 22mm against the NPR 25mm so will have a bit longer stroke. Cant think of anything else to do.

Keith, that's interesting. All the MSA NPR slaves I have seen are bigger than a 25mm bore (30mm from memory).

The Landrover Isuzu LT85/LT95 is 25mm

Disco is 22mm

[123rover50]

Hey Sheldon. You are supposed to be on holiday. You reading this too.
Got up early and put the Disco slave on. Bled the thing for ages, no bubbles but still no go . Only getting 25mm of throw same as the 25mm slave. The 30mm slave would only be less throw would it not
Then got a bit of crap in my eye from under the truck and cant see for tears. Waisted day. These NPR slaves I got are only 25mm. I wonder if I have the wrong master. What should its bore be?
Have a good one.
Keith

[123rover50]

How's the bleeding? If you have an awkward piping rout this will give heaps of grief

I'm watching
Thanks. Its a straight run. The master is on the chassis rail at the front. The slave level with the rail at the back. 1400 mm of straight steel pipe between. Frustrating so giving it a spell while I fit the Tbox and shafts.
Rang Dellows and told them all is good and will bring the other flywheel down to Sydney for him at the expo. Thats if I get the clutch sorted.

[clubagreenie]

We could always just make a slave to suit.

[123rover50]

Thing is I am working in the dark here not knowing how much movement I should have. Any one with a MSA that can tell me?
I imagine the ratio is about 3 to 1 so 24mm at the slave gives 8mm at the throwout. Is that enough?.
I am getting graunching selecting gears but am wondering if it is because I have no Tbox on yet or wheels on the ground to give drag and stop the gears spinning.
Perhaps when all is connected up it will be better.

[rovercare]

Thing is I am working in the dark here not knowing how much movement I should have. Any one with a MSA that can tell me?
I imagine the ratio is about 3 to 1 so 24mm at the slave gives 8mm at the throwout. Is that enough?.
I am getting graunching selecting gears but am wondering if it is because I have no Tbox on yet or wheels on the ground to give drag and stop the gears spinning.
Perhaps when all is connected up it will be better.

Yea clutch will still transmit drive with no drag on the other end as it still has light friction, maybe try lock the output of the gearbag to see of it helps, hard to tell from a description unfortunately, shame to fully reassemble only to have to split it yet again

[clubagreenie]

Just a thought, is the pivot point adjustable for length (can be screwed in/out of it's point)? If so adjusting it out would push the lever closer to the pressure plate & slave and give more travel?

[123rover50]

Just a thought, is the pivot point adjustable for length (can be screwed in/out of it's point)? If so adjusting it out would push the lever closer to the pressure plate & slave and give more travel?
The pivot is not really adjustable but the slave rod is. I can screw it out to put pressure on the throwout if need be. I dont think the throwout bearing is supposed to be spinning all the time.
I will lock the output and try again.

[123rover50]

Put the innards in the Tbox and hooked up the driveshafts. Still wont select properly. Start it in gear, depress clutch , it will stop. Start in neutral it wont throwout enough to engage.
Looked up specs Master 19.05mm diam 35mm stroke
Slave 25.4 mm diam 20 mm stroke.
Even with the Disco slave of 22mm bore its not getting enough and thats with the rod screwed up so the bearing is in contact all the time.
Flywheel runout was negligible so cant think of much else to do except find a bigger master.
Any Ideas anyone?

[bee utey]

It may be possible to have the D1 cylinder sleeved with stainless steel, if it needs to go to 19mm so be it. Machining down/replacing the piston shouldn't pose any difficulties. I once had a 19mm cylinder sleeved to 16mm to get travel for a conversion. Made a brass piston for it.

Also check your master cylinder has its full travel available, you may have to raise the pedal rest stop and readjust the push rod.

[123rover50]

Thanks. Master is getting full stroke. Sleeving slave to same as master should give me the same stroke, ie 35mm. I wonder what the pedal pressure increase will be.
Worth a shot as I have a pitted D1 here.

[bee utey]

Personally, before proceeding I would manually jack the clutch fork to the point of full release, you could use a scrap of angle iron on the slave mount and a piece of threaded rod. That way you know exactly how much travel you will need, or if there is another fault, eg clutch plate binding on the spline.

[123rover50]

Thats a good idea bee-utey. Been in the back of my mind but because its all new stuff I havnt bothered. Took the slave to town to get sleeved to 3/4" today so might fiddle with it tomorrow.

[123rover50]

Made up a plate and buka rod with nut.
Started truck in gear with one back wheel jacked up.
Got under and screwed up nut till wheel stopped. 24mm of travel.
Got in cab and could not engage 5th & Rev without graunching.
Screwed up some more untill could engage all gears without noise. 29mm of travel.
Should be picking up sleeved slave this PM. Then have to turn up a matching brass piston on the lathe, fit the seals and keep fingers crossed.

[123rover50]

Picked up the slave. They had to put two sleeves in it to get it down to 3/4". You dont want to know what he charged.
Turned up a piston in steel as the clutch bloke said brass was too soft. I dont think it is but never mind. Put everything together, bled it and cranked it up. Can now engage all gears with one wheel up. No crunches. Pedal is a bit heavy but cant complain.
Plug all the pipes etc back on tomorrow and go for a road test.

[clubagreenie]

So size matters...

[bee utey]

So size matters...

Yup, and just sometimes bigger ISN'T better.:p

Good to hear its working.:)

[123rover50]

Went for the first test drive today around the bottom paddock.
Buying from a wrecker is always a fingers crossed event but all the gears work without too much noise except I dont have synchro on 1st & 2nd. Bit of a worry as the book says synchro on all gears. Anyway should get me to Sydney and back I hope.
The other thing is the gearchange is upside down and back to front. Seems the cable shift should come out the front not the back. No time to change it before Expo so will have to get used to it.
Anyone rebuilt a MSA? Any hints on fixing synchros.
If all goes well I will fit the third axle drive and bottom PTO when we get back.
Didiman

[bee utey]

...all the gears work without too much noise except I dont have synchro on 1st & 2nd. Bit of a worry as the book says synchro on all gears.
Try an oil change first. someone may have filled it with EP gear oil.

[123rover50]

It was already drained when I bought it so did not get to see what came out.
I have filled it with engine oil. 15/40.

[123rover50]

Made it to Sydney and back towing Tristan on the trailer. All up over 6 tonne. Mainly in 4th going down and a fair bit in 5th coming home.Amazing what a difference a tail wind makes. Sat on around 90 k at just under 3000 in 4th and 2500 in 5th though the tacho is playing up a bit.
Getting used to no synchro on 1st and 2nd and can start in 2nd even pulling the trailer. Clutch is a bit heavy but works well. Get used to it.

[SheldonA]

Made it to Sydney and back towing Tristan on the trailer. All up over 6 tonne. Mainly in 4th going down and a fair bit in 5th coming home.Amazing what a difference a tail wind makes. Sat on around 90 k at just under 3000 in 4th and 2500 in 5th though the tacho is playing up a bit.
Getting used to no synchro on 1st and 2nd and can start in 2nd even pulling the trailer. Clutch is a bit heavy but works well. Get used to it.

Yeah! Good to hear! Other than the synchro...

[123rover50]

Now the gearbox has proven OK I can bolt the other bits back on.
I am leaving the bottom chain drive PTO off however as I am trying to source an Isuzu hydraulic PTO to drive the winch. I understand they will always drive in one direction even if reverse is selected which is not the case with the pump on the bottom PTO on the T,box.
For those that have not seen a third axle drive here is a photo.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/381.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/1385.jpg

[clubagreenie]

Be interested to see how they get around the pump running in reverse. The transfer input is already running in reverse so the pump will be running backwards unless they get really funky.

[123rover50]

Time flies. Cant believe it was 2011 I did that.
I have been running around without the winch connected all this time.
OK now I have decided to leave the bottom PTO off and have an Isuzu PTO with Hyd pump I can bolt to the MSA. This will allow me to run the winch no matter what gear I am in and even reverse.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/328.jpg (http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/6x6/hydpump_zps2a1d1917.jpg.html)

[landrover dave]

Most truck pto's run off the reverse gear on the layshaft, hence why they will run in forward or reverse!

[Sitec]

How have I missed this thread! Yup, same here.. Have the truck box PTO that came with it, which also has a large hydraulic pump.. Ideal for big under floor hydraulic winches! :)

[123rover50]

Well its all in.
I had to move the oil tank that was inside the chassis so I could get the PTO in.
Winch rotates but I still have to set the pressure relief valve and make up the linkage for the PTO and wire up the switching solenoid.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/262.jpg (http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/IMG_1310_zpsf8b1b322.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/263.jpg (http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/6x6/IMG_1309_zpsd70ab308.jpg.html)

Also determine if I have to overwind or underwind the cable.
It was a tight fit as I had to grind a bit off here and there:(

I also had to make a spacer from 2mm alloy to put under the PTO as a shim. without it the gears butted up without letting the PTO meet the box.

[123rover50]

Put an AGM house battery where the tank was and moved the tank back a bit.
Not much room under a 6x6.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/1452.jpg (http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/agmbattery_zps644cb1b9.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/1453.jpg (http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/oiltank_zps8fc32a55.jpg.html)

Keith

[Sitec]

Have you a pic of the whole vehicle.. I've not seen it yet! :)

[Homestar]

Have you a pic of the whole vehicle.. I've not seen it yet! :)

This be it...:). Quite an awesome beasty.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=78234&d=1401869520

You get two for one here - a pic of Muppets D2 in the background.:)

[Homestar]

Another shot.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/77009d1399671558-what-vehicle-long-distance-remote-travel-image.jpg

Did I mention I really like this beast?:D

[roobar_and_custard]

Well - it certainly has presence!

That is one impressive rig.

Ian.

[123rover50]

Here is a shot of the winch. Bigger would have been nice but as you can see, no room.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/1403.jpg (http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/winch_zpsfe14339f.jpg.html)

Finished the Fairlead rollers at last.
I can slip out the top and left ones to allow the cable to go around the sheave to another on the left then up the chassis to exit at the front.
The short length up the chassis is left there and connected when required.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/06/1404.jpg (http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/rollers_zps05f9d43f.jpg.html)

Keith

[Sitec]

Wow! That's awesome!! There's a lot of work gone into that!! :)