Total Engine Failure 2005 D3 TDV6

[rdenyer]

**** what do I do now?

2 weeks ago Sydney Harbour tunnel - south bound 8:50am - big rattle from under bonnet - all the dash warning lights go on, flash a couple of times - before I can get hand to ignition, engine dead, knock in to neutral, role to stop. Harbor tunnel rescue crew tow me out off the tunnel.
Get car on tray top and to dealer, explain what happened.

Dealer says leave it with them. ( I have a pretty good idea from the noise that the engine is history. Hoping that I'll get away with short motor ?)
Dealer rings - might have good news - they were able to get the engine to turn over - maybe its just the fuel pump?

Been avoiding call from dealer, eventually we make contact, worse news, sump off - found bits of bearings.

Dealer says need whole new engine -$10.8K plus $3.8K labor! Explains that they would not trust a short block - don't know what bits of metal may have done to the top end of the motor. (plus side is full motor comes the 20k Km or 12month warranty)

Dealer says its the first full engine replacement they have done on a D3 TDV6.

Disco is 2005 model TDV6 80,00km serviced by LR all services except one.

I have owned since new - this is my 3rd Discovery and first major break down.
Should I trust the repairs to this dealer?
Can I shop it around and see if I can find a better price ?
Would one of the LR specialists -e.g. Coopers or Ayres take on a job like this ?
Should I expect that a "new" engine means all new hoses and belts ?
Guess while the body is off and the engine is out I should get the auto serviced too ?
Is there anything else I should get done while its all apart ?
Will writing to LR do any good ?
Is there any recourse through Dept. of Fair Trading/Consumer affairs?

Apologies for the ramblings - but I feel the need to ramble to try and collect my thoughts?

Any suggestions welcome :(

[RichardK]

Hmmmmm............ interesting............... after a days 4WDing at Harvey last Saturday week my 09 D3 was flatbedded back to Perth (see WA trip reports), what started as a tick tick very quickly became a loud knock knock.

I have had the motors' top end stripped as we initally thought a valve may have dropped or a lifter collapsed but all was well, after lifting the head the diagnosis is a big end failure through either a slipped bearing, nuts dropped off or other reason. At this stage we haven't taken off the sump as this will be taken further.
My engine has done 118000 k's.
I rang LRA today and expect to be called back tomorrow.
If they decline to replace or repair the motor then I will take it further as although the warranty is 100,000 k's the implication is that it should last a lot more than that, in fact the consumer affairs people I believe take up these problems and have been very successful.
I have heard although not directly that this is not the only incident of a TDV6 having bearing failure.
There are a couple of other comments I could make but now is not the time and we will see what is going to happen.
Your case, if your engine has done only 85000 k's although out of warranty, could be worth taking up with the consumer affairs department in your state.

[dangermousehouse]

Did the dealer give an explanation?

(Maybe test the oil for water/diesel contamination)

Not much help, I know, but a bottom end failure on a 'young' motor is a bit unusual!

Does your insurance (not warranty) cover this?

Cheers

[jonesy63]

Disco is 2005 model TDV6 80,00km serviced by LR all services except one.

I know this vehicle is out of warranty, but the warranty period is 100,000km. If it were me, I would ring the dealer principal where you bought the D3 - and ask (nicely), "Is this is typical of D3s?" Then hint that you were about to trade it in on a D4, but if this is typical of Land Rovers - they can't even make it to the end of their warranty kilometres before a catastrophic failure - then maybe I will look elsewhere. "Unless you - nice Mr Dealer Principal - can help me out with some of the costs." :twisted:

Otherwise, going via a Legal route is a way to recoup funds spent on repairs.

I know the repairs at the St Leonards shop are top notch, however their prices match the service. :wasntme:I've been happy with them.

[CaverD3]

rdenyer

Alto are a good dealer and have been good to me too.

They have done a replacement engine bfore though. (new counter staff would not remember it as it was at Artarmon) It had a lot lot more ks on it and LRA kicked in and still brought the price down to $6,500.

Maybe you will be lucky and it is the fuel pump?

If it is the motor though you can claim under consumer legislation for what is a "reasonable expectation that the engine should last longer. However for a 2005 vehicle do not expect to pay nothing. If you push I am sure LRA will come to the party.

[Neil P]

..I have heard although not directly that this is not the only incident of a TDV6 having bearing failure.
. Several on Disco3UK over the years . Not high/hard use either.
I think one guy was in Norway with a 2 year factory warranty just expired.
The 2.7 in the D4 has the 3.0 bearings ........... ummm ....

[Slunnie]

The 2.7 in the D4 has the 3.0 bearings ........... ummm ....
Is that common parts where the 3.0 runs in 2.7 bearings or is it an upgrade on what the 2.7 used to run and indicative that the manufacturer needed to upgrade the bearings etc.

[robbotd5]

That sux mate sorry to hear about it. Hope it all works out for you the D3 is a nice bit of kit.
Regards
Robbo

[Neil P]

The 2.7D4 now runs 3.0D4 bearings . As to why , anyones guess .....
There's alot of these engines out there , and you're very unlucky
if this happens to you.

[superquag]

Sadly (for you) this is another good reason for not buying a beautiful D2 diesel from a friend of mine... had all the latest manifold upgrades etc, - and two heads before the 3rd one lasted...
Was offered it for $8k, subsequently went for $14k+ at a dealer... Passed it up 'cos I could'nt face the unreliability and potential financial ruin!
- It was his pride and joy, along with his RR-engined Truimph Stag, but a family member finally returned it permantly due to constant little niggling break-downs. Admittedly, all relatively easily fixed, but incredibly annoying and inconvenient.

He eventually traded it on a KIA Sorrento, put it on LPG and after 12 months of mourning he's TOTALLY over the Rover.

Pity, 'cos it went like a scalded cat!

Seriously, LR should come a long way into the party, a catastrophic failure like that is *not* what you expect from a DIESEL in any vehicle at that low mileage.

Or do the Koreans build a better-designed, more robust engines with appropriate quality materials ? - Their warranties say so...

Cynical & Critical James in Gosnells.

- Also Over the Rover, 95 Vogue SE with leaky Air Suspension that was ok a few months ago...

[Slunnie]

Sadly (for you) this is another good reason for not buying a beautiful D2 diesel from a friend of mine...

snip...
You're talking about a different vehicle.

[Ferret]

The time limit on warranties is a cop out IMHO. Mechanical equipment does not wear out while the vehicle is sitting in the drive way.

The manufactures warranty is not the end of the story. The Fair Trading Act, the Trade Practices Act and the Sale of Goods Act create 'implied warranties'. These implied warranty requires vehicles to be (amongst other things):

1. Of merchantable quality;
2. Fit for the purpose for which they were acquired;

If Land Rover wants to wash it hands of a total engine failure after only 80k then you do have recourse through Dept. of Fair Trading/Consumer affairs or what ever it is called now days. But speak to the dealer / LRA first to see if an agreement can be reached which you can both live with. The Consumer Affairs people will usually require this anyway before they get involved though they may give you advice on how to approach LRA first.

EDIT: This may be of some help Consumer Guarantees Guide.pdf (http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/the_acl/downloads/consumer_guarantees_guide.pdf)

[superquag]

You're talking about a different vehicle.

Absolutely !

And its the same company, - Land Rover, with the same ideals, quality control (?) business models, warranty, (dis)interest in its Customers.... etc etc.

They need to read their own brochures and advertising...and make sure that the product is 'Fit for Purpose'

Personally, I don't think the later LR's are 'Fit for Purpose', as the demise of another TDV6 over here in WA seems to indicate...

As a parting shot.... the ex-Rover 'tragic' used to get his D2 returned approx every 3 months (on average) with another "problem".... But the KIA has been 100% trouble-free since he bought it over 12 months ago. (2nd hand).
Go figure !:twisted:

[scarry]

So now we are talking about D2's?

I have had three TD5,D2's,all bought new,never ever had a major failure, or breakdown on the side of the road.The one i have had for the last 7 yrs has been one of the best vehicles i have ever owned.And it doesn't just sit in the carport,two long Cape trips,desert trips,etc,etc.

Maybe they have been serviced correctly.

The first one i had,MY99 did have a few problems,but i found LR to be excellent with warranty repairs,far better than the so called warranty our jap work vans have.The jap dealers are VERY unhelpful if you need warranty repairs and COMPLETELY disinterested in helping out.And we don't have one van,we have a fleet of them.

I would be extremely surprised if LR don't help out with these guys with D3 engine problems.

All types of vehicles will have problems,just look at the problems with the latest Tojo's.......and the 3l nissan granades.....

[ozscott]

Lr were always very good on warranty with me even outside warranty period. Cheers

Ps. Could not pay me to drive a Korean car on a daily basis

[superquag]

Scarry, can only agree with you re: servicing. You've been lucky as well I suspect, in picking the better ones...:wasntme: The D2 I've referred to was owned by an Engineer..and regularly serviced at a LR workshop.

- The run you've had is what we should expect as 'normal' for a D2..or any Land Rover.

I would like to believe LRA will cover their co$ts and inconvenience..... Bearing failure is too 'basic' to fob off as 'Production Variations' or Bad Luck or whatever.

Regarding warranty problems on Jap stuff.... can't comment as I've never one with any of my Jap vehicles... Two Crowns, one Magna, and two Mazdas. The Pajero is very much 3rd-hand... But yes, the latest crop of Oriental vehicles are sadly lacking compared to the previous models.

With a whole fleet of (Jap?) vans... I'd have thought you'd be in a strong position to "expect" a high level of service..Or else you'll be trading them in on Korean/German/French/Italian ones, and telling everyone 'why' ...

The only warranty hassles I've had was with Holden. Original dealer was obnoxious... but another -interstate- looked for and fixed warranty items when he serviced it.

Choose your dealer before you choose your car. :D

[superquag]

Ps. Could not pay me to drive a Korean car on a daily basis

...I don't like cars where the windscreen starts above my toes...and finishes behind me....

But "Boring Reliability" makes up for many things...:angel:

[ozscott]

...I don't like cars where the windscreen starts above my toes...and finishes behind me....

But "Boring Reliability" makes up for many things...:angel:

I have that with my other car - 2010 Honda Accord Euro - its got some character which I didnt expect, from the bank vault doors to the aflaesque note to the twin system from that little 200hp straight 4...actualy a really nice vehicle. The reliablity with them is insane. I will happily drive that through to 300-400,000k I reckon with no dramas.

Cheers

[Neil P]

We have a 2004 Civic Vti as a kick-about , for town parking etc.
NOTHING ever goes wrong with it . This is why the US and EU are
full of Honda vehicles.

[superquag]

C'mon you lot, - Confess !

- how many more of you keep a Jap car as the spare or back-up or shopping trolley.... because its so reliable and cheap to maintain....:p

- The 626 has become my commuter car for all the above reasons...

[superquag]

Hmmmmm............ interesting............... after a days 4WDing at Harvey last Saturday week my 09 D3 was flatbedded back to Perth (see WA trip reports), what started as a tick tick very quickly became a loud knock knock.

At this stage we haven't taken off the sump as this will be taken further.
My engine has done 118000 k's.

I rang LRA today and expect to be called back tomorrow.
.

G'day Richard, - Any reply or news from LRA yet ?

[TerryO]

C'mon you lot, - Confess !

- how many more of you keep a Jap car as the spare or back-up or shopping trolley.... because its so reliable and cheap to maintain....:p

- The 626 has become my commuter car for all the above reasons...


Not me I don't have a Jap car as a back up as you infer is needed to keep on the road reliably if your a LR owner ...having said that I do have three Disco's which between them does the job nicely. ;)

One gets the feeling from most of your comments on this topic that your well over LR's SuperQ ...that's a shame but if that is the case then enjoy what ever non Land Rover product it is you end up buying and driving in the future. :angel:

cheers,
Terry

[RichardK]

Okay, the suspect head was removed and the culprit was found........ no. 3 piston moves up and down about 10mm...... probable big end problem.

Have been in contact with LRA and we are now formalising the problem by taking the csar th the dealer who will remove the sump from the engine to identify the exact problem, thake the necessary pics and forward them tho LRA for their opinion.

My opinion at the moment is that if a big end has failed then there will be a warranty claim as a motor should last well beyond 118000 k's.

I would hope to know LRA decision perhaps by the end of the week.

I would point out that this is the third discovery I have bought from new, my D2 (2003) was traded at 128000k"s with no major problems, my previous D3 (2005) was traded at 168000k's with no major problems. All vehicles can have problems and this was my turn.

The other thing to remember is that Landrover do not make the motors, they are built by PSA (Peugeot Citroen)? and like many manufacturers, Landrover source engines, gearboxes, diffs etc. from many manufacturers so Landrover quality control cannot be held responsible for the inner problems of an assembled motor.

[ozscott]

No mate that's a big coP out. They don't make themselves virtually any component so if any component fails be it a bearing in a uni joint or a motor or wiper motor etc that isnt an LR problem? Lr need to be accountable for the component choices they make and quality programs and testing of those manufacturers. On a more agreeable note my bet is that if your vehicle was reasonably serviced and maintained you will get a out of warranty warranty fix. They might first offer you to pay for the parts and you pay labour but you will likely get there in the end. Cheers

[RichardK]

You probably misunderstood me, my comments were my own observations, of course LR are responsible for any warranty failure of their finished product, my point was I can't blame Landrover for an internal failure of a component they didn't build even though it is part of their product.

[ozscott]

I got your point Richard. I have a different view of it. Cheers

[Redback]

Absolutely !

And its the same company, - Land Rover, with the same ideals, quality control (?) business models, warranty, (dis)interest in its Customers.... etc etc.

They need to read their own brochures and advertising...and make sure that the product is 'Fit for Purpose'

Personally, I don't think the later LR's are 'Fit for Purpose', as the demise of another TDV6 over here in WA seems to indicate...

As a parting shot.... the ex-Rover 'tragic' used to get his D2 returned approx every 3 months (on average) with another "problem".... But the KIA has been 100% trouble-free since he bought it over 12 months ago. (2nd hand).
Go figure !:twisted:

Why are you here, you obviously don't like Land Rovers and are hell bent on telling people you don't, wouldn't you get your message across better on another forum, where most like minded people of your type are more likely to hang out:confused:

Maybe a KIA forum:angel:

Baz.

[Chucaro]

........ But the KIA has been 100% trouble-free since he bought it over 12 months ago. (2nd hand).
Go figure !:twisted:

Well just try to put your KIA in the same places that we put our LR's and treat it in the same manner and you will be need a broom and shovel to pick up the pieces :D

[Camo]

Absolutely !

And its the same company, - Land Rover, with the same ideals, quality control (?) business models, warranty, (dis)interest in its Customers.... etc etc.

They need to read their own brochures and advertising...and make sure that the product is 'Fit for Purpose'

Personally, I don't think the later LR's are 'Fit for Purpose', as the demise of another TDV6 over here in WA seems to indicate...

As a parting shot.... the ex-Rover 'tragic' used to get his D2 returned approx every 3 months (on average) with another "problem".... But the KIA has been 100% trouble-free since he bought it over 12 months ago. (2nd hand).
Go figure !:twisted:

LOL yep.. Think I will trade my RR in for a KIA:D What was I thinking!

[Slunnie]

LOL yep.. Think I will trade my RR in for a KIA:D What was I thinking!
Hmmm, I think the one kia I went to test drive, well I couldn't actually get it to select a gear and then the gear boot broke off. That is my lasting impression of Kia. I do however think that of the Korean brands that Hyundai is under rated but neither of them are in the same market as Land Rover.... so who cares about them really.

[ozscott]

Kia - dear oh dear - its an abomination to mention them in the same sentence as Land Rover.

Now just hijacking this thread terribly - nice dog Camo. A few months ago we got a short legged, short coat JRT puppy. Amazing dog - loves the 4wding and is a great playmate for my 2 GSD's. Now lets face it, getting back on topic a little bit, a JRT is never going to look as good in a Kia..and might in fact not voluntarily get into a Kia:D

Cheers

[Geedublya]

Hmmm, I think the one kia I went to test drive, well I couldn't actually get it to select a gear and then the gear boot broke off. That is my lasting impression of Kia. I do however think that of the Korean brands that Hyundai is under rated but neither of them are in the same market as Land Rover.... so who cares about them really.

Kia is now owned by Hyundai and most of the vehicles platform share. I believe the quality has improved to the same level now, though the early ones were dreadful.
My experience was a hire car which had an auto that would not change up from second gear. I drove around Perth for the day in second.:cool:

[Neil P]

..of the Korean brands that Hyundai is under rated . Although totally off topic re:Richards engine , I
test drove a i45 2.4 whilst waiting for the D3 wheel alignment a
couple of weeks back , and it was waaaaaay better than a Camry.
I was impressed with the component quality and the fit and finish.
It went like stink up Buderim hill , without the usually 4 cylinder
scream and less than $30k otr.
60 months warranty .......

[101RRS]

You probably misunderstood me, my comments were my own observations, of course LR are responsible for any warranty failure of their finished product, my point was I can't blame Landrover for an internal failure of a component they didn't build even though it is part of their product.

Your spot on and this is a clue to Land Rover starting to improve their quality in the early 90s. Apparently then when a component failed Landrover carried the issue themselves - then they realised that most of their reliabilty problems were items supplied by other makers - so warranty claims then started to be passed on to these parts manufacturers, they started to be held accountable for the quality of the sub parts - slowly the quality of these parts improved and in some cases suppliers were changed.

So - yes Landrover is responsible at the customer end but further up the chain the Landrover system should be holding their suppliers accountable.

Garry

[superquag]

Well just try to put your KIA in the same places that we put our LR's and treat it in the same manner and you will be need a broom and shovel to pick up the pieces :D

Yep, I agree 110%, the Kia is only a 'soft-roader' , and should'nt be expected to go anywhere off the beaten track that 2WD's can manage... Yet I reckon it can exceed the wildest promises (... being able to remain ON a wet road...) of its brochures, whereas too many - New - LR's are struggling to live up to their glorious history, never mind improve on it ! And treat the LR brochures as examples of the copy-writer's Art, not Reality..

Yes, you're right, I feel let down.. big differance from driving a work-Rangie that I used to borrow occasionally, and the reality of owning one and finding/fixing the faults...many of which were'nt in the '89, but infest my '95.

As the Kia - owning but Rover-phile Engineer friend oft said.. "Range Rover, designed by a Gentleman...but built by Poms"

To which I'd add, - "with cheapy parts supplied by shrt-sighted management"

The only reason GMH made the Holden handle well (Radial Tuned Suspension) was the number of complaints from owners about 'Terminal understeer' etc etc.
Then Ford, terrified by the reaction of the buying public, did similar, and even Chrysler invoked magic to keep the Valiant 'on' the road. Most of the time... All because they were pushed by disgruntled - Potential - buyers.

Forums only spring up when folk want to share info or commisserate... and most Oriental vehicles don't break down enough... so it would be pretty boring...

My Rangie *is* up for sale, - but only when I've fixed the serious stuff and most of the non-essentials. Like window switches... Then road - tested it all to be sure-to be sure... Then off-road tested it...then fix it and try again till its right.

Until then I'll drive my Jap -LPG Mazda 'cos it's 1/4 the co$t of the Event Horizon. The heater also works betterer...

Despite what some of you may think my opinion of LR is, I'll sleep a lot easier if it leaves me in (off) road-worthy and better condition than when I bought it. Its only fair to the memory of Spencer-King.

This being a 'Forum', commisserations to Richard for the way Le Frogs let him down in the Engine Room, and a piece of useless info:-

Was chatting to a LR Mechanic, he mentioned that his Classic was MUCH cooler in the cabin since he replaced the alloy-block Rover engine with a huge cast-iron Chevy V8.
- Reckons the alloy radiated heaps more than the iron does, and the floor is now cool, even on a summer's day whereas it had been unpleasantly warm there and up behind the dash. Similar to having the heater ON during summer.

Another excuse for putting ventilation holes in the fenders and letting the heat out... to make everything in there last longer.

:twisted::twisted::twisted:

[RichardK]

I think in fact this thread was hijacked by my problems, in fact it was started by rdenyer who had an engine failure of similar proportions, seems to have been forgotten.....................

rdenyer, any news on your engine?

[ADMIRAL]

The only reason GMH made the Holden handle well (Radial Tuned Suspension) was the number of complaints from owners about 'Terminal understeer' etc etc.
Then Ford, terrified by the reaction of the buying public, did similar, and even Chrysler invoked magic to keep the Valiant 'on' the road. Most of the time... All because they were pushed by disgruntled - Potential - buyers.

Ummmm.....not quite in my opinion. It was the accepted practice of the day to make the big wallowy sedans manufactured in Oz, understeer, as it was deemed safer for the inexperienced drivers. It was more a shift in perception by Australian car buyers with the 'good' handling vehicles from Europe hitting our shores at the time. Even these early 'RTS ' type examples had massive understeer by current standards. IMO the advertising of the era was taking a long bow trying to compare the 'tricked' local sedans to Alfa's and Bmw's It was certainly the start of better times though.

[400HPONGAS]

Hey Superquag , how much you paying someone to take your RRC off your hands ? From your constant inane crap about everything Land rover , mixed with your love of everything oriental/Jap then Ive decided that for say $500 paid in cash to me ,Ill come round and collect from you , as long as you promise to ban yourself from all Landrover forums .
In the meantime , I own a D3 TDV6 and happen to be very interested in what develops for these guys with their engine problems

[RichardK]

I had the verbal report from the dealer today..............

The big end bearing at No. 3 has spun and destroyed the bearing, thrust washers and scored the crankshaft, pictures have been taken and sent to LRA. Their comments may be available as early as Friday or early next week.

My thoughts are a new engine should be fitted and should be done by implied and reasonable expectation warranty, thats what I shall be seeking.

[CaverD3]

I agree. Push for a whole new engine but be prepared to settle for a new short block.

[rdenyer]

Quick Update - this thread seems to have gone a little off track??
Dealer has but a quote together for me - its a total new engine - they are not willing to to a short motor.
They have not yet got to the bottom of the problem but there are enough bits an pieces of bearing and metal in the sump for them to make this recommendation
Cost wise it looks like its north of $15K.
Have written a letter to Land Rover to see if they will help, only posted it yesterday, so I am waiting on their response before progressing further.

[Neil P]

Be interesting to see what Ford will do a 2.7V6 Terri engine for .........

[dangermousehouse]

Rdenyer,

Just out of interest, have you had any work done in the engine bay recently?

I recall reading somewhere that someone had a similar issue and on removing the rocker covers found a 'foreign object'. Suggestion was made that it could have been left there during recall work and may have caused oil starvation.

Anyways, just curious if your aware of any work that had been done.

[Celtoid]

Your spot on and this is a clue to Land Rover starting to improve their quality in the early 90s. Apparently then when a component failed Landrover carried the issue themselves - then they realised that most of their reliabilty problems were items supplied by other makers - so warranty claims then started to be passed on to these parts manufacturers, they started to be held accountable for the quality of the sub parts - slowly the quality of these parts improved and in some cases suppliers were changed.

So - yes Landrover is responsible at the customer end but further up the chain the Landrover system should be holding their suppliers accountable.

Garry

Recently read some articles (threads supplied through this forum :)) on the new Pug 508. Apparently Peugeot were sick of the 'inherited' reliability issues they were getting across their fleet. They read the riot act to their subcontractors...I guess using the lever of the WFC.....making them sign-on to effectively 'Supplier Of Excellence' agreements. I imagine that means warranty and liability issues and costs get flowed through to the subcontractor.

End result....

Thus far I've only read rave reviews stating that the 508 is a contender for BMWs and Audis now....

Early days I suppose but the principle is clear.

Cheers,

Kev.

[101RRS]

As a side issue - I picked this up on another forum:

"Did you hear of the Diesel Territory that run a bearing towing a 2300 Kg 23' van from Melbourne (http://www.exploroz.com/Shop/Bargain_Buys/ExploreAustralia/Melbourne.aspx) to Mallacoota, during a 4 van test by a leading Caravan Mag ?

Car had 1600 km on it. Ford says it is a one off...may well be true, but unlikely to inspire buyers. Not sure I would tow that weight with a new motor, but I suppose they are built to take it...all except this one apparently"

Not heard of the issue in Jags or Citroens but I guess their numbers are small compared to Landrovers and later Territory's.

Garry

[PAT303]

1600k's is a bit early to start towing a few tonne with IMHO. Pat

[Redback]

Thought this thread on MySwag may interest people on one diesel Territory owner:D
Alternative to my territory (http://myswag.org/forum/index.php'topic=15056.0)

[TerryO]

So how soon can we expect to see you in a Paj or Challenger Baz? ...;)

cheers,
Terry

[~Rich~]

Dropped my D3 off to my local LR specialist to get some work done.
In the corner of their workshop was a TDV6 with the body off.
Motor stuffed!
Lack of oil changes was the culprit!
Only had 3 oil changes in its life ( don't know exact km's)
Last oil change done just over 30,000kms ago.
Oil did not show on the dipstick!
Not too sure about the dipstick driving it either. ;)
Sounds like a cylinder seized and then broke the crankshaft, bugger.
Worst thing was it's a Sydney owner who had this minor issue whilst away in Queensland.
Oh well maybe $12,000 plus. ( can buy a few oil changes for that me thinks)

[Disco4SE]

Motor stuffed!
Lack of oil changes was the culprit!
Only had 3 oil changes in its life ( don't know exact km's)
Oh well maybe $12,000 plus. ( can buy a few oil changes for that me thinks)
You hear of this too many times.
People can't be that tight or lazy to have an oil & filter change done every 12K or so.
As you mentioned, $12,000.00 does buy alot of oil / filter changes.
Cheers, Craig

[PAT303]

When I serviced fleet cars the amount of people that thought because they are only having the vehicle for three years so I won't bother servicing was amazing.Seriously you would be supprised how many work cars aren't serviced or looked after because they are work cars so people don't think they own them or are responseable for them. Pat

[Hoges]

this thread is very interesting indeed..in fact it's very funny... :eek:

the parallels are just too much..let me explain

Here we are, all sitting around in the "virtual waiting room" making small talk while our cybermate Rdenyer is in consultation with the surgeon re. how good a transplant they can do, all the while waiting on the decision of the "health fund" a.k.a. LR Aust to see whether $$$ will be forthcoming for the D3 to receive a total new heart and live a reasonable life... ;)

It's great to have friends wait with you.... :angel:

continue...continue! ;):p

[hgsuzuki]

Any further news...?

[rdenyer]

Thanks to all those sitting around in the virtual waiting room waiting to hear the prognosis of my D3 engine.
LRA are sticking to their guns and are not willing to help, couple of issues that they say are my fault - service at non- LR dealer, and that when I had the D3 in at Alto for the Brake Booster recall, they mentioned that there was a noise that should be checked out. As I was not doing any major trips I figured that this could wait until the next service which is due now(won't be needed).

So I have sold one of the children off in to slavery and am about to part with a substantial amount of cash to get a new engine, up side is I get a 12 month 20k warranty on the engine.

Any one got any hints on things I should make sure they do while they are replacing the engine.

Things I have thought of are;
Auto trans major service
Replace all hoses
Full service of air-con, re-gas etc
As the body is coming off, would they do a general clean up of the chassis and re apply rust inhibitor ?

Any other suggestions

Regards,
Richard

[CaverD3]

You are entitled to take your vehicle to anyone for service provided it is serviced according to manufacturers recommendation.

What was the noise.
If there was a noise then it would have been failing.

A soliciors letter would get a different response. Especially as it is a known fil point and the spec has been changed.

[RichardK]

The aircon will be regassed as it will be degassed when they remove the body.
I'm not sure chassis cleaning will be in their labour charge

[rdenyer]

Hi CaverD3, can you explain more by what you mean by "know fil point and the spec has been changed"

Noise wise, it sounded much more like an "old style diesel" - bit of a rattle. I figured that if the dealer service staff let me drive off, it was not that bad - maybe i was being bit naive.

[Neil P]

This is a six year old vehicle and tbh I'm not surprised they're
not helping you out . Wrt the LR Dealership quip , that's just
an across the bow , for sour grapes . It wouldn't have made any
difference to their response , but while they had your attention .........
Good job you bought-up big on RIO and NAB last week to
pay for this ;) It's alot of money . Goodluck with the rebuild
and future driving .

[CaverD3]

Sorry, typo.

Should be "fail" point. Spec change: The later D3 and D4 engines have different big end bearings and/or shims.

[rdenyer]

Any one know where I can find detailed history for the different versions of the 2.7ltr TDV6? want to make sure I get the latest one I can for this replacement.
Also any tips on how I can check that I got what I asked for. Once its all back together its pretty hard t see anything under all the plastic.

[rdenyer]

Seeing my D3 will be in many pieces while the new engine is fitted I asked the dealer if its worth while having the auto transmission serviced.
This is the response I got

Transmission oil is life time oil, we can replace it but it comes with new sump & works out about $1300.00.

Obviously no discount for spending heaps on the engine - yes I know the oil is expensive.

Why do they insist on this "life time" thing. I thought that the auto trans should be serviced at 100K - and seeing mine had done 80K , this could have been a good opportunity to get it all done.

[Neil P]

How long are you going to keep this vehicle ?
This is a black-hole for money , if you let them
milk you enough ..........

[CaverD3]

Order your own oil and a steel pan direct from ZF. Much cheaper. The oil change does not need to be done when you have the engine out. If you change the pan to the steel one you can just break off the pipe.

[TerryO]

Hi Richard,

for what its worth I would not get the dealer to do any other work then the minimum as their hourly rates are way over the top.

I recently had a new long engine fitted under warranty and there is no reason this can't be done for substantially less then 15k. The dealers buy the 2.7 TDV6 engines new as stock order items for a surprisingly low amount of money.

The fact that they quoted you $1300 for a auto service should be setting off alarm bells.

I like you would like to know if there is any differences between the early build 2.7's to the ones LR carrys in stock and sells today. When the workshop ordered mine he told me LRA had said they had six 2.7 long engines in stock so I'm guessing there is a reasonable turn over off new engines they sell.

Good luck with it.

cheers,
Terry

[Neil P]

It's interesting that the difference in price between a diesel
and 4.0 petrol in D3S was $10K ( with 25% higher tax bracket )
back then , but it's only $3700 on a Terri ( and that engine
has 10% import tax , compared with the straight 6 petrol alternative ) .

There's a big rip-off going on with these 2.7 blocks ........

[djhampson]

Seeing my D3 will be in many pieces while the new engine is fitted I asked the dealer if its worth while having the auto transmission serviced.
This is the response I got

Transmission oil is life time oil, we can replace it but it comes with new sump & works out about $1300.00. .

MR Automotive in Qld will do the auto service for $900 which includes the upgraded sump which makes future oil changes easier and cheaper. Mine is going in next week.

[RichardK]

Mine was done for $625 at the ZF agents in WA last year

[TerryO]

It's interesting that the difference in price between a diesel
and 4.0 petrol in D3S was $10K ( with 25% higher tax bracket )
back then , but it's only $3700 on a Terri ( and that engine
has 10% import tax , compared with the straight 6 petrol alternative ) .

There's a big rip-off going on with these 2.7 blocks ........


Hi Neil,

I take it that your working on the assumption that the Falcon six costs bugger all to Ford Australia compared to what the D3's petrol six cost LR I take it?

Personally I think while the 2.7 engines are not that cheap new, in reality to what it costs to reco one they aren't that bad in price.

Plus when they first came out in D3's as an option they were state of the art, now they are old technology so if anything it would be reasonable to expect Ford Aus is buying them at a knock down price.

Maybe that is why they have taken so many years to fit the 2.7's to the Territory?

cheers,
Terry

[Neil P]

I reckon the 4.0 V6 Ford Cologne world engine didn't cost LR , as a
part of Ford , any more than the Broadmeadows unit . I don't know
if the V6 has the same plastic chain-timing cassette as the terrible
Mexican engines in the Explorer/clones range ........ Nobody appears
to have posted its failure , as is common on the ( far more numerous
Explorer ) US Ford sites . Maybe the German front and back chain
mechanism is different . With the turbo and HP fuel system absent
from a block-only purchase , a 2.7 can't cost nine grand ?

[rdenyer]

:)
Finally I have the D3 back, new engine installed sounds lovely even got a new black plastic engine cover.
now I have a question - as I have a nice new engine and I don't want this to ever happen again, I would like to put some extra gauges to monitor oil temp/pressure.
What options are there - found a neat solution for older D1/D2 from Madman ECM-2 and it seems with products like "Faultmate" engine information can be read, but I am looking for a solution that I could leave permanently mounted.
Although a computer engineer I am not all that interested in building a in-car PC solution.

Ideal solution in my mind would be a ECM-2 for the D3 ?

Any suggestions

[gghaggis]

Buy a cheap Android phone (or even tablet). Install the Torque app and buy a bluetooth OBD2 cable unit off EBay.

You can then choose whatever virtual gauges you want!

Cheers,

Gordon

[rdenyer]

Can anyone confirm if OBD2 information contains Oil Pressure?

In the quick investigations (Blackbox Solutions) I have made I can see oil temp but no oil pressure ?

[disco2hse]

:)
Finally I have the D3 back, new engine installed sounds lovely even got a new black plastic engine cover.
now I have a question - as I have a nice new engine and I don't want this to ever happen again, I would like to put some extra gauges to monitor oil temp/pressure.
What options are there - found a neat solution for older D1/D2 from Madman ECM-2 and it seems with products like "Faultmate" engine information can be read, but I am looking for a solution that I could leave permanently mounted.
Although a computer engineer I am not all that interested in building a in-car PC solution.

Ideal solution in my mind would be a ECM-2 for the D3 ?

Any suggestions

Just read your thread for the first time. Sorry to hear, never a good feeling.

Interestingly at the same repair shop I have seen three or four with very similar circumstances to what you describe. The crank on one engine I had a look at had obviously melted big time. The metal on the crank had that same effect you have if drag your finger over semi-dry glue. I don't know if the bearings had collapsed but certainly at least one of the con rods had decided that was the best time to find a new home via the side of the block.

Possibly you can sensor your way out of trouble, but I wonder if by the time you see any issues developing it is already too late.

Good luck.
Alan

[Graeme]

Can anyone confirm if OBD2 information contains Oil Pressure?
The engine only has a low pressure switch, not a pressure sensor.

[rdenyer]

See Attachments

[rdenyer]

If that is the case how sensitive is the switch ? Typically by the time the oil light comes on the damage is done :-(
Seems weird that the computer monitors oil temp but relies only on a switch for pressure.
Sound like the only answer is a third party oil pressure gauge - next task find a suitable place to pick-up the the pressure, in the "old days" I would have tee'd off the pressure switch assembly.

[Disco4SE]

Buy a cheap Android phone (or even tablet). Install the Torque app and buy a bluetooth OBD2 cable unit off EBay.

You can then choose whatever virtual gauges you want!

Cheers,

Gordon
Hi Gordon,
I downloaded the App. Can it connect to the ECU via Bluetooth or is the lead necessary?
Cheers, Craig

[Disco4SE]

May have answered my own question.
Is this the adaptor required Wireless V1.4 ELM327 OBD2 OBDII Bluetooth Diagnostic Cars and Vehicle Cable | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wireless-V1-4-ELM327-OBD2-OBDII-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Cars-and-Vehicle-Cable-/260863393077?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbcab7d35)

Cheers, Craig

[TerryO]

It would seem in some cases that the big end and main cap bolts can come loose over time. When my engine was stripped down recently they found a number of the caps were only just over finger tight.

My engine was swapped gratis for a new long engine because of a mistake made when work was being done under second hand car warranty, not because of any fault with the engine. They later told me after stripping it down that while the caps were loose the bearings looked ok and didn't appear to be failing.

However if the bearing caps were that lose then chances are bearing failure wasn't far off if the caps got any looser.

I brought my D3 with 92k on the clock in March this year and the service history showed that the previous owner only changed the oil at scheduled service intervals. Personally I think that is not often enough and I will be changing the oil every 5k or so to give maximum protection.

cheers,
Terry

[Graeme]

Seems weird that the computer monitors oil temp
Do you have information that confirms that it does indeed monitor engine oil temperature? I'm not saying that it doesn't, only that I wasn't aware that it does.

[disco2hse]

The D3 pictures

Under all that mass of plumbing is one very small block.

[gghaggis]

May have answered my own question.
Is this the adaptor required Wireless V1.4 ELM327 OBD2 OBDII Bluetooth Diagnostic Cars and Vehicle Cable | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wireless-V1-4-ELM327-OBD2-OBDII-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Cars-and-Vehicle-Cable-/260863393077?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbcab7d35)

Cheers, Craig

Yup, that should do it.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

It would seem in some cases that the big end and main cap bolts can come loose over time. When my engine was stripped down recently they found a number of the caps were only just over finger tight.
Perhaps the sump should be dropped and the bolts checked around the end of warranty and a thread locker used on all bolts if any are loose.

[rdenyer]

Hi Graeme,
I am new to this and may have put 2 and 2 together to get 4 with out understanding all the options.
On the web site for the Black Box solutions the people who make the Faultmate there is section under downloads called "coverage"
https://www.blackbox-solutions.com/shop/help/SM129.html

I am assuming that this is a list of vehicle information that Faultmate can read

Under the "Diesel Engine Management" for the D3 there is an entry for Engine Oil Temperature.

Would then depend on the OBD2 software/hardware combination you were using to be able read this data ????

Mind you I might have the wrong end of the stick with this - but for under $200 I think I'll give it a go.

[Graeme]

When I saw that BBS can provide the oil temp I thought I'd find out where the sensor is located - its in the left side of the sump, near the front. I'm not sure that knowing the oil temp will prevent or indicate an imminent bearing failure though.

[disco_driver]

Hi Rdenyer


Just reading your post after the same thing happened to my D3 last week. Same sort of thing rattles then engine stops only to discover bits of bearing, overheated crank etc and being told I need a new motor.


Decided to go second hand motor as I can't justify 16k change over so I've settled for a 96k second hand one.


I'm still about bit worried about it though. What can I do to ensure this does not happen again after spending $7k to fix this. At first I though that 96k is quite low for a diesel motor but after reading your thread, I realise that your old motor had only done 80k. Mine had done $172k before dying.


As far as I know all services had been done so not sure what else I can do to ensure I prevent this. A couple of years have passed since your original post. How the new engine going now? Is there more information in the D3 community that can help this from happening? I have asked the engine installer to check the cap bolts when the new (second hand) motor arrives.


Ps does the body need to be removed to install engine?

[jonesy63]

Sorry to sidetrack this thread, but I seem to recall that reconditioning the TDV6 2.7 and 3.0 engines was not possible - as big end bearings were not available. I noticed that there is a shop in UK now advertising on eBay - that they can recondition your motor (keep same engine number) or exchange one. No mention of warranty offered. Prices seem a bit lower than a new one.
Rangerover Sport 2 7 TDV6 Recon Your Engine | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RANGEROVER-SPORT-2-7-TDV6-RECON-YOUR-ENGINE-/161186372341?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item258774daf5&_uhb=1)

[sheerluck]

Sorry to sidetrack this thread, but I seem to recall that reconditioning the TDV6 2.7 and 3.0 engines was not possible - as big end bearings were not available. I noticed that there is a shop in UK now advertising on eBay - that they can recondition your motor (keep same engine number) or exchange one. No mention of warranty offered. Prices seem a bit lower than a new one.
Rangerover Sport 2 7 TDV6 Recon Your Engine | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RANGEROVER-SPORT-2-7-TDV6-RECON-YOUR-ENGINE-/161186372341?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item258774daf5&_uhb=1)

Big ends are available, I think it was August last year that they were brought out. As far as I remember, pistons were still unavailable at that point.

[jonesy63]

Hi Rdenyer


Just reading your post after the same thing happened to my D3 last week. Same sort of thing rattles then engine stops only to discover bits of bearing, overheated crank etc and being told I need a new motor.


Decided to go second hand motor as I can't justify 16k change over so I've settled for a 96k second hand one.


I'm still about bit worried about it though. What can I do to ensure this does not happen again after spending $7k to fix this. At first I though that 96k is quite low for a diesel motor but after reading your thread, I realise that your old motor had only done 80k. Mine had done $172k before dying.


As far as I know all services had been done so not sure what else I can do to ensure I prevent this. A couple of years have passed since your original post. How the new engine going now? Is there more information in the D3 community that can help this from happening? I have asked the engine installer to check the cap bolts when the new (second hand) motor arrives.


Ps does the body need to be removed to install engine?

DD - so your engine failed at 172k km... Did someone change the belts and oil pump casing at the recommended 168k km? I wonder if they stuffed up or used an old oil pump casing - per this thread: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/190822-oil-pump-casing-2.html

Body does come off easily and saves many hours in labour.

Good luck with the new donk!

[rdenyer]

DD,
Sorry to hear about your motor.
Yes after 2 1/2 years all good .
Not 100% sure what can be done to stop happening in the future - but did hear that the newer engines has tabs on the bearings to stop them moving, but the Service Manager at the dealership would not confirm this.
Use good quality oil, with regular oil and filter changes - I am going every 5000 Km.
Follow all recommended service requirements
Find a good independent repairer who is enthusiastic about Landrovers
I now keep two service records - one set for the engine the other for the rest of the D3.
Yes they took the body off

Hope it works out for you.

[Dagilmo]

DD,
Sorry to hear about your motor.
Yes after 2 1/2 years all good .
Not 100% sure what can be done to stop happening in the future - but did hear that the newer engines has tabs on the bearings to stop them moving, but the Service Manager at the dealership would not confirm this.
Use good quality oil, with regular oil and filter changes - I am going every 5000 Km.
Follow all recommended service requirements
Find a good independent repairer who is enthusiastic about Landrovers
I now keep two service records - one set for the engine the other for the rest of the D3.
Yes they took the body off

Hope it works out for you.

Thanks rdenyer,

Glad to hear that yours is going well now.

I have just bought a 05 TDV6 with a new (18k km) motor and was thinking about servicing. I thought it was important to keep separate records as the motor would have different requirements than the body and the odometer reading. I think separate records and a specialist that gets 'to know' the car is the answer.

How do you keep your second records?

Cheers David.

[101RRS]

There is a recent thread on one of the UK forums of a crank failure in a 2.7. In this one there are no bearing failures and all journals are in good condition. The crank just failed after the front two conrods and it looks like metal fatigue - maybe a manufacturing fault.

Garry

[rdenyer]

Hi David
I found this great PDF called "Discovery 3 Maintenance Check List"
I print one out for the engine and one for the chassis. and then work out if its an O, A or B service.
Not that familiar with this BB so cant work out how to send it to you - but I think I found it on the UK D3 site.
Regards,
Richard

[jonesy63]

Like this checklist?
http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/11656/Discovery_3_Maintenance_Check_Sheet_%28All_Models_ %29_-_km.pdf

[disco_driver]

DD,
Sorry to hear about your motor.
Yes after 2 1/2 years all good .
Not 100% sure what can be done to stop happening in the future - but did hear that the newer engines has tabs on the bearings to stop them moving, but the Service Manager at the dealership would not confirm this.
Use good quality oil, with regular oil and filter changes - I am going every 5000 Km.
Follow all recommended service requirements
Find a good independent repairer who is enthusiastic about Landrovers
I now keep two service records - one set for the engine the other for the rest of the D3.
Yes they took the body off

Hope it works out for you.


Thanks for that. I'm currently still waiting for the engine to arrive from Melbourne. I've asked the mechanic to remove the sump when it arrives to see if he could check the bolts etc.


I hope this motor is in good repair and has been previously maintained well. Aside from the no of kms, I was unable to get any ore specific info. Good tips about oil etc. will certainly maintain it meticulously.


Yev

[Dagilmo]

Thanks Richard and jonesy. That's great.

Pitty they are only planned to last 240k kms :p

[KOOS BEST]

We have the same problems here in South Africa, but the guys seems to have found the main problem which is the main bearings and journals.

D3 TDV6 Engine Rebuilds - 4x4 Community Forum (http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php't=177718)

It is now a norm to treat the engine with PTFE here by us.

[disco_driver]

[QUOTE=

It is now a norm to treat the engine with PTFE here by us.[/QUOTE]



PTFE treatment? What's that involve. Oil additive?

[CaverD3]

Teflon additive.

[disco_driver]

Teflon additive.



Does that really work? Doing a quick search on the net there are many that say don't risk it. It could cause clogging. Other swear by it, others still recommend other products like cobol additive.


Where can I find information, if any, about Teflon additives to land rover TDV6s

[Rich84]

I have a feeling that all the PTFE additive in the world wouldn't prevent the actual crank from snapping, if it's going to snap, it's going to snap... They all seem to break in the same spot, that should tell us something...


I'll continue maintaining my TDV6 at 10K intervals with the best oil I can get my hands on, and do pre-emptive maintenance such as the oil pump housing, but there's a point where you have to say "I've done all I can" and leave the rest to fate...

[LeighW]

...
Where can I find information, if any, about Teflon additives to land rover TDV6s

Check out the postings by one George BOSCH (user name hgbosch on 4x4 Community Forum (http://4x4community.co.za) who promotes the use of a PTFE additive by brand name. He has a copy of a Polish report that seems to indicate that the product he refers to does NOT clog or aggregate particles so that would be an advantage.

As the owner of a brand new TDV6 engine (mine failed ingloriously at 142 000 km) I am reluctant to do anything other than increase the frequency of oil and filter changes. To achieve that I am currently replacing both at 6 000 km and always use only OEM filters and fully synthetic oil meeting or exceeding the original 5W-30 specification.

I would suggest that if you are in any doubt about the oil used in your engine then get it assessed. I used CAT (the bulldozer and heavy machinery mob) here in Brisbane as they supply a kit to sample and send by return post; IIRC it was about $45 but well worth it for peace of mind.

HTH, Leigh

[Tombie]

Does that really work? Doing a quick search on the net there are many that say don't risk it. It could cause clogging. Other swear by it, others still recommend other products like cobol additive.


Where can I find information, if any, about Teflon additives to land rover TDV6s

Works great! Should ruin your engine in no time flat...:twisted:

Avoid it...

[Geedublya]

Slick 50 and other engine oil additives - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com (http://www.skepdic.com/slick50.html)
Of course they will claim it is different stuff.

[V2Evo96]

How to blow any warranty on OEM, reco or transplant motor - run PTFE additives. Once found in your oil galleries or tested oil sample its all over, Land Rover......

In particular aftermarket warranty companies are always looking for a way "out" of a claim.

[disco_driver]

I'd say by the responses, there is not much support for these products. I'd say its safe to say I'll stay away.