gearbox dead - 200tdi '93 110

[gmeddy]

I had no indications that there was a problem with the GB.
I gave it good fresh oil about 20k ago and recently checked it was still at a good level.
No noises, no problems, then all of a sudden, just as I was pulling out of a parking spot... bang. No drive.
No drive in any gears, tried the transfer case, high, low, lock etc etc...
nothing.

towed it home with my '83 Toyota Tercel 1400cc wagon and took the inspection plate off the transfer box, no signs of wear, no chunks in the oil.
rocked the vehicle back and forward with the Transfer box engaged and it was good, the axels were turned by it, but then engaged the GB and it didn't engage the motor.
just made a sloppy noise inside the GB.

I have found out from reading on Ashcroft Transmission's site, and emailing Dave, that it is not an LT77S box like the book says it should be with a 200tdi, but it is actually an R380 "Shorty" box.

I will have to find a way of removing the box myself and diagnosing the problem, and order the parts, then find someone good to fit them for me.
:(

any thoughts on my best options?

Thanks

[weeds]

just making sure you did enage centre diff lock as this will rule out something simple like a drive flange or cv........

[bee utey]

Isn't the output shaft of the gearbox prone to wearing out the spline? Take the transfer box off first, look at the output shaft. The gearbox is then lighter to get out.

[rainman]

You beat me to it bee utey!

When you say you pulled the inspection plate off, was it the big rectangular one on the bottom of the transfer case, or the round PTO one at the top on the back? If you pull the PTO one off you'll be able to see whether you've stripped the gearbox output shaft. Early R380/LT230 setups didn't lubricate the splines properly, but I would have thought all would have been fixed or replaced with the drilled out gear by now.

[Psimpson7]

agree with Bee Utey,

Likely to be the splines on the input gear in the transfer case.

You can probably get it out without removing the transer or gear box.

Undo the back plate on the back of the transfer case and pull the input gear with bearings out. You will then be able to have a look at the splines, and fit a new gear if required.

As far as I can tell it doesnt need much setting up.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/1039.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/1040.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/1041.jpg

[rainman]

agree with Bee Utey,

Likely to be the splines on the input gear in the transfer case.



Unfortunately when mine went about ten years ago it was the output shaft splines, ie gearbox rebuild. :(

[gmeddy]

wow, thanks for all the fast replies!
thats great news that it could be so simple!
yeah i only looked into the rectangular plate, not the circular one.

I have just got out from under the car, i pulled off both prop shafts and the hand brake drum and took off both the panel under the centre cubby box and the cover around the gear shifters in preparation for removal of gearbox(s) - but if i may not need to do that in the end that is the best news i've had all decade!

oh and yeah, i did try it in "diff lock" and still had no drive.

- i never knew that you can change from lock and unlocked without first shifting up into neutral, i just figured that one out today fiddling with the stick. ;-)

[gmeddy]

Psimpson7, are there any special tools/pullers to use to get the input gear with bearings to come out and to refit?
I will start on this job immediately.

[rainman]

I don't think so gmeddy (but it has been a while for me). As in Pete's pictures, remove the six bolts and cover, and then ease off the round retaining plate which has the outer bearing race in the front face. Then the gear complete with bearings slides out, off the gearbox output shaft. If the splines are stripped it might help to gently rock the vehicle with the transfer case in either range. Be careful not to dent or score the flat surfaces of the cover and plate if you have to use a screwdriver.

[gmeddy]

I removed the gear.
it is stripped inside
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37378&stc=1&d=1310456200

and the output shaft is stripped too
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37377&stc=1&d=1310456200

where does this leave me?
is this output shaft replaceable without a full gearbox removal and overhaul?

thanks

[Top End Rangie]

It appears that whole assembly is full off grease,is the assembly usually below oil level or not?

[gmeddy]

It appears that whole assembly is full off grease,is the assembly usually below oil level or not?

no i think it's all the metal filings mixed with oil from over the years.
it would not be under oil... as you see the oil level plug is far below the input gear.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37380&stc=1&d=1310458772

must be why they make the cross drilled ones now eh?
mine was not cross drilled.

so... i will have to pull the whole gearbox out after all eh?
in this case, would you recommend a full overhaul kit to be put into it?
apparently 170,000 km's on the clock so far...

has anyone who is not a professional mechanic done a rebuild on an R380 like this before with success?
Lots of special tools required if I understand correctly.

[rainman]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but yes, gearbox rebuild. I started to pull mine apart myself but gave up very quickly and took it to a mechanic I knew. Hopefully a mechanic will be able to advise on what needs replacing once it's apart. Hopefully your gears will all be ok, but you'll probably want some new syncro rings (for the lower gears at least), bearings, seals, etc.

It's quite amazing that yours has lasted 170 000km. Mine went at 40 000km, as most others did around that mark from what I believe. I'm now just over 180 000km with the drilled input gear and no problems.

[Psimpson7]

bugger, thats not good.

I have just rebuilt the r380 in my 90 after I broke the layshaft. The last few pages in my 90 thread in my signature have a load of pictures.

I had none of the special tools. The worst job is removing the collar from the main shaft.

It is possible. Take a lot of pictures when you do it. You will most likely need to refer back to them

There is I think a mistake in the workshop manual too with reference to the syncro hub for 5th/reverse too, Make a note of the way it faces when you remove it.

[isuzurover]

Personally, I would try and find a good 2nd hand R380, then swap your bellhousing and other bits over to make it a "stumpy".

That will be easier than a rebuild.

The only problem is you are limited to defender R380s. Disco versions (usually cheaper) will bolt in but put the shifter where the cubby box is.

However that still gives you 1994-2007 gearboxes, however 1999-on boxes are stronger. You can even uy a complete box and t-case.

Some of the stumpy bits may not fit a later box, but Ashcroft transmissions can tell you what bits will fit and what won't, and sell you anything you need for a reasonable price. e.g. I bought all the bits needed to turn a disco box into a stumpy from them.

[gmeddy]

Thanks Psimpson7, I had a look through your thread.
very nice looking work.
it is encouraging to see someone without experience and the SPTools can have a crack at it.
Did you do much work with the Mainshaft or was the collar the only thing you needed to remove from it?

But I am afraid I will not even be able to do that much, I have no workshop, bench vice, bearing press, torque wrenches, dial indicator etc etc...

At best I can get the box out and take it to someone who will do the rebuild for me.

Maybe I can order a rebuild kit from Ashcrofts to be fitted, that would save me some good $ no doubt.

[isuzurover]

Thanks Psimpson7, I had a look through your thread.
very nice looking work.
it is encouraging to see someone without experience and the SPTools can have a crack at it.
Did you do much work with the Mainshaft or was the collar the only thing you needed to remove from it?

But I am afraid I will not even be able to do that much, I have no workshop, bench vice, bearing press, torque wrenches, dial indicator etc etc...

At best I can get the box out and take it to someone who will do the rebuild for me.

Maybe I can order a rebuild kit from Ashcrofts to be fitted, that would save me some good $ no doubt.

Your chances of finding someone to (competently) rebuild an R380 for a reasonable price are probably pretty unlikely in Kunners - based on my experiences.

If I were you I would look for a good 2nd hand box, or just import one from Ashcroft.

[Stuck]

It hasn't torn the centre out of the clutch plate has it ?.

[middy.01]

my R380 in my 200tdi defender has done roughly 400 000km's(odo stuck on 300 009 for 6yrs) and the previous owner had no big work done.

Although mine has to have a rebuild because the synchros are non existent and bearing noises.

Beachboro 4x4 seam good and thats where im probably getting mine done but thats not much use in kunners i supose.

[gmeddy]

It hasn't torn the centre out of the clutch plate has it ?.

I haven't got it out to look yet.
Just calling around today trying to find someone in the Darwin area who will touch a landrover gearbox and it hasn't been looking good.

[spudfan]

Unfortunately when mine went about ten years ago it was the output shaft splines, ie gearbox rebuild. :(
Yep, happened us. Stranded,rescued and a rebuild.Seems the replacement bits are slightly modified to aid lubrication and stop this happening again.

[rrturboD]

50_dent (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/50_dent.html) is in Darwin, and a mechanic! may be worth a PM at least

[gmeddy]

I've sorted out parts from Ashcrofts mainly, had to get the R380 rebuild kit from elsewhere in the UK as Ashy was out of stock.

Getting the parts shipped direct to MR Automotive in Redcliffe and I will remove the GB tomorrow afternoon and take it up to Katherine (500km each way) to be put on a truck over to QLD for MR's to do the job.

It's a lot of stuffing around, but the small price we pay for living outside of the 'Rat-Race'.

Decided that I may as well order the rebuild kit for the LT230 at the same time and also do a ratio change to 1.222 because we do a bit of highway driving.
May as well get it all done now while I'm doing it, otherwise we might get caught out somewhere down the line.

will keep yas posted.

[gmeddy]

got the box out on saturday arvo,
found lots of black engine oil in the bell housing... new rear engine oil seal needed i guess.

clutch thrust bearing is stuffed, new clutch time as well.

at least the input shaft is looking good.

any opinions on the clutch? I'm looking at Exedy HD pink clutch - good?

I bet there's a thread somewhere about clutches...

where the heck did the link to "channels" go? that used to take me where i wanted to go!

[gmeddy]

it took a week of stuffing around before i could send them over east, and a week of them sitting at the shipping yard in Bris before they were sent back, but yesterday they finally arrived!
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i392/gmeddyness/Defender%20bits/newboxes1.jpg

gleaming with good-as-new beauty!

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i392/gmeddyness/Defender%20bits/newboxes2.jpg

my new mod - the expanded transfer case oil sump, for 500ml extra oil and cooling fins!

a day and a half of hard work later and i'm driving around enjoying the higher ratio gears I also had MR Automotive fit to the Transfer case, I now have the same gearing as the Disco's and it's VERY easy to notice the difference!

so happy right now! :D

if your interested in the expenses:

to have the new input gear and bearings for the transfer case, as well as a full rebuild kit... and the special sump, and the ratio upgrade, and heavy duty cross pin Ashcroft Transmissions - HD Cross Pin (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=138)

new mainshaft, fifth/reverse synchro hub and full rebuild kit for the R380...

All parts (apart from the synchro hub which I didn't know I needed) ordered from Ashcrofts in UK and sent direct to MR Automotive in Queensland...

$1455 in parts from UK
$1870 in parts and labour for the rebuilds

about 24 hours of my own labour which probably saved me a couple grand that would have been charged by the Dodgy Brothers Mechanics locally.

[cewilson]

Well done!


I did the same mod when I was at Tindal back in 05 - best damn thing I ever did putting the Disco gears in :)


Only thing I did different was I changed the low range gears to a (then) set of Maxi-Drive straight cut gears. Again it was the best damn thing I ever did!


Cheers
Chris

[Psimpson7]

Nice work. :)

Rgds
Pete

[roverrescue]

Great effort. I was gonna pipe up but then realised this is the end of the saga!!!

The newer cross drilled input gears engage on unused splines of the mainshaft. (You can see them in your picture of the flogged main shaft)
For a temporary fix you could have cleaned her up and whacked in a new cross dilled input gear. Wouldnt have fixed the clutch and rear main issues but would have been mobile!!!! Im still on such a temporary fix - for 3 years and 50 thou odd kays mostly up the cape getting a flogging.

I spose Ill stump up for some shiny bling like you have one day!

Steve

[gmeddy]

mmm
well, I may have tried that remedy if I'd heard of it beforehand.

But all's well that end's well.
I intend on keeping this rig for a long time now so it's good to know i've got new boxes in it.

thanks for the comments guys.