Oh dear! Loud bang and clatter racket.

[JayBoRover]

I just played around with the front brakes on DeeDee (109" S2a) to replace one drum and juggle the brake shoes around while the ordered ones are in the post. Went for a quick test drive around the block but didn't make it that far. At the first turn, as I changed down from 4th to 3rd going around the corner, there was a loud bang and then shudder and lots of clattering. I pulled up with foot on the clutch and found the gear stick was difficult to get out of gear. Then I discovered that even with the gearshift in neutral, there was still drive when I eased the clutch out. So I struggled to get the gearstick into 1st and started letting the clutch out but it felt like it was in 4th with the engine taking up load but no movement. So I tried reverse and as I eased the clutch out it suddenly leapt backwards. Back into 1st and it really felt like 4th or the handbrake was on. I put it into low range and 1st and managed to get under way but with a lot of clattering noise and the gearstick shaking around. I idled the 500 or so meters back home in Low 1st.

Obviously I will pull the hubs and make sure it isn't something to do with where I was just playing, but it seems quite unlikely from the symptoms. After that I have no real idea what to do. (Apart from finishing reassembling the Nissan Patrol after replacing all the injectors and glow plugs).

Does anyone have any ideas? Maybe there's a common problem with these symptoms? I'll let you know what I find in the brake hubs after I've had some lunch.

Ciao
John B

[JDNSW]

No common problem, but it does sound as if something pretty serious has happened in the gearbox or possibly transfer case. I'd say a first step would be drain the oil from the gearbox and see if anything except oil comes out. If not, try the transfer case.

John

[Lostkiwi]

Bugger!!:o
We will watch in anticipation

[SIImad]

Hi John B.

It sounds as though John is spot on. I had a similar thing happen a few years back, and when I drained the gearbox parts of the gears came out as well as oil. The gear stick not workingproperly and feeling like it was in 4th sounds very familiar.

I wish you luck, but it sounds like a rebuild may be in order.

AJ.

[JayBoRover]

Thanks guys.
I did check the brake hubs just in case but everything is fine there.
Luckily I just happen to have a parts donor S2a here that I have already removed the body, seat box, floor covers and tunnel cover from. I can fairly readily see how the gearbox and transfer box are supposed to look and even have spares if it comes to that. I don't know what condition the donor car was in when it was retired but it does seem to select each of it's gears anyway.

The book of receipts that I got with DeeDee includes a receipt for a gearbox rebuild. I think it was a few years ago because the previous owner didn't use the car (used as a prop in a showroom) so the gearbox was done for the owner prior to that one. I'll dig it out and see if there's any clue as to why it got rebuilt, other than as a part of the Holden 202 installation.

I'll keep you all posted, but in the mean time all I have to do to get my Patrol going is to finish bolting up the inlet manifold, turbo cross-over pipe and bleed the fuel injector lines. That'll take the pressure off for having to travel 240kms for work on Monday!

Ciao
John B

[JDNSW]

Some Holden conversions are reported to result in the input shaft being misaligned due to inaccurate manufacture of the adapter, and this could cause gearbox problems, from bearing failure to shaft breakage (either resulting in consequent damage).

It seems you may have a spare gearbox. Note that the six cylinder and four cylinder bell housings are different, but can be swapped between gearboxes except between suffixes A and B. i.e. you can swap the four and six bellhousings unless one is A and the other is anything else. This assumes both boxes are 2a.

John

[wrinklearthur]

Hi John

Could be the Holden motor with a crook adaptor , if they are not directly in line with the input shaft, there can be a considerable load on the intermediate bearing, when it fails it causes the main shaft to lock up and leaves you with the symptoms as you have described.

See if you can find yourself another adaptor plate and clutch setup, to match the other gearbox and then swop it all over.

When you are onto a good setup, it should give you years of trouble free service .

Good luck! Arthur

[JayBoRover]

Hmmm, the adapter plate huh. One of the reasons I bought the donor was because it came with a 2.25 LR engine so that maybe one day I could put a LR engine back into DeeDee. I wasn't planning that specifically and definitely not for a few years but maybe I should fast track that possibility. Something to consider and keep in mind when I survey the damage.

Is it possible to open up the top of the gearbox in situ to see what might be wrong or is it a matter of remove it to assess? (Apart from the aforementioned draining the oil).

[JDNSW]

.....

Is it possible to open up the top of the gearbox in situ to see what might be wrong or is it a matter of remove it to assess? (Apart from the aforementioned draining the oil).

Yes. But if anything except oil drains out of it the box will have to come out anyway.

John

[RobHay]

.....and the problem is........??????

[JayBoRover]

.....and the problem is........??????
"The problem is ..." lack of time to get to it! My first priority was to get my Nissan going again and that was a challenge already. After much effort I finally managed to get it fired up at 11pm on Sunday night with all the new glow plugs and reconditioned injectors in and it only ran on 5 cylinders. Discovered one injector had been incorrectly assembled with the shim at the bottom creating far to great pressure so the injector wasn't opening. Anyway, sorted that out and got the Nissan running properly on Monday night (actually 12:05am Tuesday!).

I got a bit of time on the S2a today - just enough to remove the seat box. I did have a play with trying to engage various gears with and without the 4WD and in Hi and Lo range. The conclusion is that engagement of Reverse, first and second is okay but third is no good while fourth doesn't feel right but does go in. With the engine idling and the gearstick in position for third but not engaged, the lever kind of rattles back and forth with clunks from the box. The problem seems to be associated with whatever shaft third gear sits on or bearing associated with it.

I'll drain the oil tomorrow and see what comes out and then set about removing the box. I have ordered a set of gaskets for gearbox and transfer box.

I did notice something unusual tonight though. Most of the bolts that attach the bellhousing to the adapter plate are either loose or missing. There doesn't appear to be a gap between the two, so maybe it's not related. I'll dig a bit more tomorrow and post some photo's of what I see.

This is all a bit new for me, having not played with car gearboxes before, but it seems that Landy boxes are fairly straight forward to deal with so here goes nothing! It's broken now so I can't make it too much worse, right?

Ciao
John B

[wrinklearthur]

but it seems that Landy boxes are fairly straight forward to deal with


He He He ---------- :wasntme:

Cheers Arthur

[JayBoRover]

Well, drained the oil from both the gearbox and transfer box. Both came out pretty clean with no "bits and pieces" in it. All's good so far.

I'm finding a huge number of bolts either missing or loose and also discovered the front drive shaft is back-to-front, according to the manual anyway. (The manual states the splined slip joint should be at the axle end as opposed to the rear driveshaft that requires the splined slip joint adjacent to the handbrake drum). I'm also a little concerned at the vast array of different sizes of nuts and bolts. Some bolts barely long enough to flush the end of the nut, others so long there's over an inch of thread exposed through the nut, different sized bolts for the same job as others, even a couple of gutter bolts with the very flat and square nuts!

I also had a minor issue with unhitching the rear driveshaft. The instructions say to undo the nuts at the brake drum end and slide the front part of the shaft back along the splines to clear the bolts. Unfortunately mine didn't slide far enough to clear the bolts and I ended up having to remove the driveshaft at the diff end too and dropping the whole shaft out.

So I'm having a lunch break (2pm) but will get back to it. Just have to remove the clutch slave cylinder which will be a bit of a trick as it has modified bracket arrangement to suit the Holden conversion and I can't get to one of the bolts. After that I think I just have to sling around the boxes and see if my engine hoist will fit in the cabin area to lift them out. All going well I'll have the boxes on the workshop floor by tonight.

More later.
Ciao
John B

[chazza]

Good work John! The bolts (most of them) can be replaced with high tensile UNF.

Stripping the boxes is not difficult, so once you get them apart it is easy to order everything you need at once. If you need bearings, buy Timken, or similar from a bearing shop,

Cheers Charlie

[wrinklearthur]

Hi John

Good to see that no rubbish has come out with the oil.

If you suspect any sizes are wrong with the bolts as you remove them, before you move on get the correct size sorted out and purchase replacements.
Another tip is, when putting aside your fittings, dont throw them all into a container together, place them instead in snap top bags and write on the bag their positions.

As far as parts are concerned, there are some good overhaul kits available, but there is no subsitute for having someone that is a good mechanic, showing you what to look for in the way of damage or wear.

Goodluck with your project and cheers Arthur.

[JayBoRover]

I promised some photo's so here we go:
A couple of examples of missing or loose bolts:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/1.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/2.jpg

A days work in going from this:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/3.jpg

To this:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/4.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/5.jpg

The contents of the hole are now on the floor in the workshop:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/6.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/7.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/07/8.jpg

I'm looking forward to seeing what I find inside, but another week of earning a crust has likely got in the way. I might be able to do a bit tomorrow night but that's likely to be it for the week. If I'm not careful the Australasian Safari will get in the way before I get a chance to complete the job. I still have to prepare my bike for that as a backup plan to my new Rally bike not arriving in time.

BTW, thanks all those watching this thread and offering advice. Much needed and appreciated.:)

Ciao
John B

[MR LSD]

Hi John

Could be the Holden motor with a crook adaptor , if they are not directly in line with the input shaft, there can be a considerable load on the intermediate bearing, when it fails it causes the main shaft to lock up and leaves you with the symptoms as you have described.

See if you can find yourself another adaptor plate and clutch setup, to match the other gearbox and then swop it all over.

When you are onto a good setup, it should give you years of trouble free service .

Good luck! ArthurWell I had a 1982 sIII with a Holden 202 that ate gearboxes it was the adapter that was the problem that said .I still say that holeds are good when they are in holdens, good to see you are doing the job your self hope you just get the time to do it ,never seems to be the time for us boys and are toys.

[JayBoRover]

I'm wondering if my problem might also be related to the missing and loose bolts on the joint between the bell-housing and the adapter plate. If the alignment is so critical then I imagine the bolting situation could well result in poor alignment, or at least variable alignment. I think there were only three bolts/nuts that I had to use a socket on, all others were either loose or missing:eek:. All three of the tight bolts were on the bottom half of the adapter, with all the top bolts loose or missing:eek:.

[JDNSW]

I'm wondering if my problem might also be related to the missing and loose bolts on the joint between the bell-housing and the adapter plate. If the alignment is so critical then I imagine the bolting situation could well result in poor alignment, or at least variable alignment. I think there were only three bolts/nuts that I had to use a socket on, all others were either loose or missing:eek:. All three of the tight bolts were on the bottom half of the adapter, with all the top bolts loose or missing:eek:.

It could be that the loose bolts are the cause of the gearbox problems, but it is equally possible that the loose bolts are the result of misalignment.

John

[Blknight.aus]

before you go pulling it apart turn the input shaft by hand and run through the gear selection...

[bee utey]

From the original post my money is on the 4th gear synchro ring jamming, possibly damage to the 4-3 synchro hub. I have seen a box with too-thick gaskets under the input shaft retainer allow the synchro ring to develop ramps instead of slots. This caused symptoms like you described. The loose bolts you found may be a sign of poor assembly elsewhere.

[UncleHo]

G'day JayBoRover :)

My My, that looks very like an early Series 2 type of clutch slave cylinder mounting as noted in the parts and the Haynes manual,(Haynes 314) and that bellhousing looks like it is a 3 bolt starter unit (diesel) suit M45G starter, "Winklearthur" or "JDNSW" should be able to verify that, there should also be a semicircular cover plate/inspection plate under the front of the gearchange lever mounting (under the 2 bolts) that seals the clutch cover from water ingression ;) also check the size of the brass spigot bush against the size of the input shaft, as there is a difference between the Rover flywheel size and that in the Holden flywheel, if that is incorrect, then the input shaft will float,and it will not be a straight line input drive.


cheers

[JayBoRover]

before you go pulling it apart turn the input shaft by hand and run through the gear selection...
In neutral it turns fine. In first gear it turns nice for half a turn then gets a little "tight" and "rough" but does turn okay. As you continue to turn, it alternates between smooth and rough every half turn. In third gear it is very rough and gets very tight, until after a few turns it just locks up solid. Feels very, very horrible!


My My, that looks very like an early Series 2 type of clutch slave cylinder mounting as noted in the parts and the Haynes manual,(Haynes 314) and that bellhousing looks like it is a 3 bolt starter unit (diesel) suit M45G starter, "Winklearthur" or "JDNSW" should be able to verify that,
This is a close up of the slave cylinder bracket on DeeDee:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1132.jpg

It's a little different to the slave cylinder bracket on the '64 donor, but similar working principle.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1133.jpg


there should also be a semicircular cover plate/inspection plate under the front of the gearchange lever mounting (under the 2 bolts) that seals the clutch cover from water ingression
That explains the small cover plate I found just sitting on one of the chassis rails. It was just sitting there, not attached to anything but held in place by pressure from the passengers side floor plate.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1134.jpg

So I assume this is the "water ingression hole" you refer to...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1135.jpg

...and the plate goes here to cover the hole.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1136.jpg

A quick check against the "reference" donor confirms this.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1137.jpg


also check the size of the brass spigot bush against the size of the input shaft, as there is a difference between the Rover flywheel size and that in the Holden flywheel, if that is incorrect, then the input shaft will float,and it will not be a straight line input drive.

This weekend I did manage to separate the transfer box from the gearbox but I have been unable to separate the gearbox from the bell-housing so can't really start taking the gearbox apart to see what's wrong. There is a 1 1/8" nut on the end of the layshaft that I can not get undone. I need a impact socket for my rattle gun, or at least a large enough socket, to get over it. Off to the shops this week I guess. At least the transfer box looks okay and the main bearings on the main shaft and layshaft look okay from the bell-housing end, so I'm pretty sure the problem is "inside".

Ciao
John B

[wrinklearthur]

In neutral it turns fine. In first gear it turns nice for half a turn then gets a little "tight" and "rough" but does turn okay. As you continue to turn, it alternates between smooth and rough every half turn. In third gear it is very rough and gets very tight, until after a few turns it just locks up solid. Feels very, very horrible!


This is a close up of the slave cylinder bracket on DeeDee:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1132.jpg

It's a little different to the slave cylinder bracket on the '64 donor, but similar working principle.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1133.jpg


That explains the small cover plate I found just sitting on one of the chassis rails. It was just sitting there, not attached to anything but held in place by pressure from the passengers side floor plate.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1134.jpg

So I assume this is the "water ingression hole" you refer to...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1135.jpg

...and the plate goes here to cover the hole.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1136.jpg

A quick check against the "reference" donor confirms this.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1137.jpg



This weekend I did manage to separate the transfer box from the gearbox but I have been unable to separate the gearbox from the bell-housing so can't really start taking the gearbox apart to see what's wrong. There is a 1 1/8" nut on the end of the layshaft that I can not get undone. I need a impact socket for my rattle gun, or at least a large enough socket, to get over it. Off to the shops this week I guess. At least the transfer box looks okay and the main bearings on the main shaft and layshaft look okay from the bell-housing end, so I'm pretty sure the problem is "inside".

Ciao
John B
Hi John

A sturdy 3/4", drive bar, short extension and 1 1/8" socket for that nut.
Then try and select first gear, slide an old clutch plate on the input shaft and holding that securely, should be enough to undo it.

Cheers Arthur

[drifter]

Hi John

A sturdy 3/4", drive bar, short extension and 1 1/8" socket for that nut.
Then try and select first gear, slide an old clutch plate on the input shaft and holding that securely, should be enough to undo it.

Cheers Arthur

or pop the top off and select 3rd AND reverse manually and it will lock up the gearbox and make it a heap easier to undo that nut.

[JayBoRover]

I did as was suggested and bought a 3/8" drive socket and a 125mm extension bar. Ended up I still needed the rattle gun and even then it took a lot of goes. Anyway, the verdict:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1107.jpg
Broken Main Shaft.

Looking back at the end of the Main Shaft still in the gearbox:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1108.jpg

A nicely sheared shaft:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1109.jpg

Sheared just behind the synchro clutch cages:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1110.jpg

One chunk of metal in here that doesn't belong but no damage to the teeth at all from what I can tell so far. Dissasembly will tell the full story of course.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1111.jpg

I did note a severe pitting on a tooth at the very rear of the lay shaft. I'll have to have a look at what this one does.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/1112.jpg

So the question now is do I pull parts out of my donor gearbox to rebuild this one, transplant the entire donor gearbox into DeeDee or source just the parts I need to rebuild this one now that I have it apart?

Cheers
John B

[Wallydog]

Id pull the donor box down and make a gearbox from the 2. Carefully Inspect all parts and if you find something well worn from both boxes, source a better one.

You can get gasket and bearing kits from the usual suspects and setup any clearances to spec from the workshop manual. Because you have no synchro in 1 / 2 gears it should be less expensive to do up than the SIII...maybe.

Try and avoid the el-cheapo bearings and stick with Jap or Timkens and other quality brands. Ensure that mainshaft nut is torqued up to 100ft/lb on re-assembly.

Would be a good time to overhaul the transfer case as well while its out of the vehicle. The usual procedure is a kit with bearings, gaskets, thrust washers and reset the bearing preload with the speedo cover shims.

Workshop manual will be needed. W

[JayBoRover]

Id pull the donor box down and make a gearbox from the 2. Carefully Inspect all parts and if you find something well worn from both boxes, source a better one.

You can get gasket and bearing kits from the usual suspects and setup any clearances to spec from the workshop manual. Because you have no synchro in 1 / 2 gears it should be less expensive to do up than the SIII...maybe.

Try and avoid the el-cheapo bearings and stick with Jap or Timkens and other quality brands. Ensure that mainshaft nut is torqued up to 100ft/lb on re-assembly. I assume you mean the nut on the front end of the Lay Shaft? The Main Shaft nut at the rear has a locking tab and is not "tight" at all. Maybe that's a contributing factor to my failure? I'll check the torque spec's in the manual. Thanks for the heads-up.

Would be a good time to overhaul the transfer case as well while its out of the vehicle. The usual procedure is a kit with bearings, gaskets, thrust washers and reset the bearing preload with the speedo cover shims.

Workshop manual will be needed. W
Cheers

[Wallydog]

Cheers

The layshaft nut on my series 3 was bolted up to 55ft/lb with loctite 243 on the thread. Thats important as there is no locking tab on that one, wasn't on mine. The mainshaft is the castellated nut at the back of the mainshaft with a lock tab, to 100ft/lb. W

[JayBoRover]

The layshaft nut on my series 3 was bolted up to 55ft/lb with loctite 243 on the thread. Thats important as there is no locking tab on that one, wasn't on mine. The mainshaft is the castellated nut at the back of the mainshaft with a lock tab, to 100ft/lb. W
WOW!!!:eek: That nut on the rear of the Main Shaft was loose! Like it turned tighter with finger pressure only. It was only the locking tab that kept it in place. After I bent the locking tab up out of the way the nut just unwound by hand. I might do it up when I put it together huh!:angel:
Thanks again for the heads-up.
Cheers
John B

[JDNSW]

Looking at the photos, it looks to me like a fatigue crack about halfway, then a fracture. This would be consistent with misalignment, as a misaligned input shaft would be trying to bend the mainshaft, although the crack could have been started by a surface defect or damage even without misalignment. Uneven wear on the input bearing and the bearing where the mainshaft goes into the input shaft would confirm this.

John

[Wallydog]

What, who makes the better quality holden adaptor plates? I guess thats something you will look at later? W

[JayBoRover]

Unfortunately I didn't get time to do anything on my gearbox woes this weekend other than check the numbers. So can anyone tell me if there are likely to be any significant problems with using the main shaft from a suffix C gearbox (my donor car) in my DeeDee's suffix F box?

Cheers
John B

[Wallydog]

Unfortunately I didn't get time to do anything on my gearbox woes this weekend other than check the numbers. So can anyone tell me if there are likely to be any significant problems with using the main shaft from a suffix C gearbox (my donor car) in my DeeDee's suffix F box?

Cheers
John B

Series II part number 264250 from my reference, it didn't mention anything on suffix so Id say it would be the same. Put them side by side and examine them.

[JayBoRover]

It's been quite a while since I posted up on here. Been a bit busy (sshhh - non Land Rover stuff!;))

I have, however, been making some progress on poor old DeeDee. I pulled he gearbox out of the donor S2a a few weekends ago and finally got a chance to start pulling it apart yesterday. (Hope you had a nice birthday Queen Elizabeth - thanks for the day off:)). I'll try and get some photos together tomorrow when things (mainly my hands) are cleaned up a bit.

I did have some drama because, when I went to undo the nuts holding the housing on the clutch assembly in the bell-housing, two of the studs started turning as soon as the nuts were slightly loose. With some photo's the problem this caused will be clearer but it took me quite some time to work out how to get them undone!

Turning the main shaft by hand, after decoupling the transfer box, revealed a "clicking" sound. This was repeatable in both directions and very "loud and clear". I imagine it would have sounded very terminal while driving and may explain why the donor car was originally taken off the road.

So today I have removed the donor gearbox main shaft, and I'm very, very happy to note that it looks to be in good condition. The mystery of the "clicking" sound may also have been solved as all the rollers from the front roller bearing fell out when the bell-housing was removed. It seems that the rear 'support ring" for the rollers is missing, probably ground away to nothing and spat out the drain plugs over the years. (Once again some photo's tomorrow will help explain and clarify). Anyway, it's not a problem for me as the one in DeeDee's gearbox is fine and will slip onto the donor main shaft without issue.

So, depending on how long I get caught up at my brothers place tomorrow for a BBQ, I may get DeeDee's gearbox back together and ready to throw back in. (Sounds easy but I know I have some work to do to ensure the Holden adapter plate is correctly aligned ready for the gearbox. I bought a DTI a week or so ago in readiness for doing the job a little better than the previous idiot - at least I'll try and do up the nuts, let alone actually put them on the studs!!).

Hopefully I'll have an update tomorrow night for you.

PS: While playing around the donor I removed the spark plugs and was impressed to see them in good condition. So I grabbed the fan blades and rotated the engine by hand for a few revolutions. All seemed nice and smooth so I cleaned the plugs up a little and threw them back in their holes. Be interesting to see what it'll take to make it run one day. I have a gasket kit lying around to overhaul the 2.25 so that might be a project for another day;).

Ciao
JayBoRover

[JayBoRover]

More progress today:).
Firstly, here's the photo of the studs that protrude through from the back of the bell-housing.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/28.jpg
Of the four bigger studs that surround the main shaft, two were spinning once the nuts were just broken free. The studs have splines at the other end that are supposed to grip in the alloy of the bell housing. Luckily they do protrude through and have a dome at the end. I managed to get a long shank screw driver down through the top of the gearbox and around the gears and other paraphernalia to touch the dome end. By levering fairly hard I managed to get enough pressure on the end of the screwdriver to hold the stud and get the nuts undone. I couldn't believe it worked!:o but was very happy because I had no clue as to how to do it otherwise:cool:.

I also mentioned in my previous post about the roller bearing coming out in parts. Here's the roller collection from the old donor gearbox:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/29.jpg
...and here's the one from my DeeDee still on the end of the main shaft:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/125.jpg

As I remove it ...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/126.jpg
...and turn it around you can see how the rear "cage plate" is being ground away by the end of the splined shaft:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/127.jpg
I suspect the donor one simply ground right through allowing the rollers to flop about and generally create mayhem.

Anyway, continuing on with the rebuild of my gearbox. With all the various internals removed I cleaned the gearbox housing with some spray can degreaser and a high pressure hose and followed that up with a rag and some WD40 and the occasional help of a tootbrush. Came up remarkably good:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/30.jpg

Comparing the old broken DeeDee main shaft with the intact donor one didn't reveal any differences ... but I didn't look closely enough!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/124.jpg

When I came to install the main shaft into the DeeDee gearbox housing I discovered it just wouldn't go in. So I pulled it back out and had a closer look and found this:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/31.jpg
A dowel in the outer bearing housing. Checking the donor gearbox housing I found there was a groove in the bearing housing for the dowel to locate into. I guess I found one of the small differences between a suffix B and a suffix F gearbox;). So I simply removed the "clean-skin" bearing and housing from the broken DeeDee main shaft ...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/32.jpg
... and relocated it to the donor main shaft. All's good so far.

Second attempt installed the main shaft and then dropped the layshaft in and then played around for a while getting the selector forks in.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/33.jpg
Popped on the selector box cover and that's it for another weekend.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/817.jpg
Still have to refit the balls and springs for the locations notches but I also have to remove the selector box cover again and run a gasket bead around the mating surface before actually bolting it down.

All going well I'll get the bell housing cleaned up next weekend and bolt the gearbox back up and attach the transfer box again. I'll probably take a little time to clean the outside of the other bits before attaching them to my nice shiny clean gearbox, but I'll try not to get carried away like I normally do. I really want to get DeeDee going again so I can sell my Patrol ute and look at another toy.

Ciao
JayBoRover

[tailslide]

Thanks for the photos, bringing back childhood memories of dad's 2A gear box. It too had been out of the car a few times...:o:o:o

Cheers
Ron

[JayBoRover]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/817.jpg
Still have to refit the balls and springs for the locations notches but I also have to remove the selector box cover again and run a gasket bead around the mating surface before actually bolting it down.

Well, a few drama's in the weekend putting the box back together. If you look closely at the photo where I'd just rested the selector box cover back on, you might notice that one of the four threaded holes that mount the selector ball spring retainer brackets (the top one in the photo) still has something in it. Yep - I hadn't noticed that one of the bolts sheared whenI dismantled the box. So I drilled the remaining bolt and tried an "ezi-out" but it didn't work. I then had to drill it out completely and tapped a new thread in it - unfortunately all I had in the shed was a metric tap so that's what's gone in.

The other big drama was I discovered that the gasket kits I bought from eBay were the incorrect ones. I didn't notice until I'd opened the packet and tried to find the gaskets for the gearbox/bellhousing joint and couldn't find one. Then I tried to sort out the other gaskets needed and the kit contained no gaskets of any use. Hmmm. Checked the label on the back of the package and it states "Range Rover". I sent an enquiry to the eBay seller (I had bought the gasket kits quite a while ago) and to his credit he emailed me straight back to say he'd check the order and then this morning rang me personally to apologise and let me know he's sent two replacement kits in the mail to me today. All a bit of a nuisance with the hold-up but I'm very happy with "allfourx4" looking after me with after sales service.

So hopefully this coming weekend I'll get done what I meant to get done last weekend. (and some more photo's).
Cheers
John B

[RobHay]

John, Great post and very informative.

[JayBoRover]

I did some work on DeeDee's gearbox this weekend, so went looking for this thread to update it a little. I can't believe how long it's been since I last posted on it:eek:. I'd better pull finger and get the thing back in before everything else on the car seizes up from lack of turning!

Anyway, as mentioned in my last post, I did get the correct gasket set sent to me. Unfortunately I got far too busy to spend time on DeeDee, with the summer Criterium cycle racing season starting, then Christmas and New Year, took over as Project Manager on a new big project for work and before you know it it's almost February and my own project is running behind schedule!:o So this weekend I managed to bolt the gearbox to the bell-housing and did some cleaning of the clutch actuator and slave cylinder bracket. I'll get some photo's to post up. I also bought myself a "teardown table" for Christmas, which makes things sooo much more pleasant than grovelling on the ground. Wish I'd done it years ago.

Next on the agenda is to bolt the transfer box to the gearbox and clean the whole assembly up a bit. Then I want to put the DTI on the end of the crank and check the Holden adapter late alignment. Just need to see whether that means it's necessary to remove the clutch - I suspect it is which will make the job that bit more daunting and time consuming.

More soon. Cheers
John B

[JayBoRover]

Finally got some more time in the shed, by virtue of some last minute cancelling of other plans I had.:(
I didn't get any photo's of the gearbox going back together. It's a bit tricky trying to get everything to line up, often needing three or four hands, and hold a camera. I did get a few photo's today of getting the transfer box bolted up.
So first up the transfer box is slid up to meet the back of the gearbox. Simply align the studs and bolt them up. Then unbolt them, pull the transfer box off again and this time put the gasket in between:mad:.:D.

While the gearbox is lying on it's side to make it easy to fit the intermediate gears back in, I took a little extra time to remove all the studs for the transfer box bottom plate and clean them up a bit. So first photo is the transfer box empty except for the output shaft, because I never took the output section off:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/1320.jpg

Next photo I have the gearbox main shaft fitted with the transfer gear, the end plate bolted back on and the intermediate gears fitted. Just half way through refitting the studs for the bottom plate. I cleaned up each thread of the studs and refitted them with loctite. When I was dismantling I found most of the studs came out when trying to undo the nuts only, so I figured they'd never had loctite or been torqued.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/1321.jpg

Bottom plate all bolted on and nice and clean. I decided not to bother repainting anything, so just cleaned everything pretty well.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/1322.jpg

So now it's virtually ready to go back in. The mount brackets are on but I still have to reattach the drum brake assembly. I want to track down and replace the small rubber "seal" on the handbrake actuator as it's been letting oil and dirt into the brake housing. I have some new handbrake shoes to fit but don't want them trashed because of not replacing the seal. Anyone know a part number and where I can get one from? (I haven't actually looked myself yet - just seemed easy to ask while I'm here;)).
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/1323.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/1324.jpg

I mentioned my new "garage toys" a while ago. Meet the new "teardown table". It's been very, very useful and it's sooo great to not be crawling around on the ground while dealing with big heavy parts like a gearbox. In the background is the engine crane, levelling bar and the 1.6 LR engine is mounted to the engine stand. Gotta love Christmas ... the ultimate excuse to buy workshop stuff!:p
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/1325.jpg

So hopefully next weekend I'll get to start looking at checking adapter plate alignment. I'll try to get some good photo's of that, as I haven't really come across any myself and I'd love to see some so figure others must too.

Ciao
John B

[JDNSW]

Dust cover for expander unit 515466. Not sure how it will let oil in - should not be any oil on the outside! But it is needed to keep water, mud and dust out of the actuator.

Oil will usually get onto the brake shoes from a leaking rear seal. If you have not replaced this, it is probably a good idea. But note that there is a slot machined on the surface the brake backing plate to allow any oil leakage to drain outside of the backing plate. Make sure that you do not block this when assembling the handbrake, and check it is clear every service.

On your comment about the bottom plate studs not being loctited - it might be worth noting that this box was designed (1947) before the invention of loctite (1953), and almost certainly made before its use received widespread acceptance (about 1970 - 1980).

John

[wrinklearthur]

[/QUOTE]
That explains the small cover plate [/QUOTE]

Under that plate don't use the full sized gasket for the early model, as the early plates are a complete oval, but make yourself another gasket that is the same shape as the later half size plate.


With the other gaping holes that may be there, try and get the appropriate grommets, even if you can't make it completely water tight, it should slow it's demise in a creek crossing.
Sorry if you have already done this work, but water when it gets in, it doesn't do the clutch plate much good, the after effects can range from a slipping clutch and a red face to; a gearbox full of water, ruined throw out race, dead motor, the esky floating down the water way, wet very grumpy passengers and someone doing CPR on the driver.
.

[drifter]

Dust cover for expander unit 515466. <snip>

John

Land Rover Series 1 - 3 Handbrake Actuator Boot | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-Series-1-3-Handbrake-Actuator-Boot-/250954697317?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6e10ca65)

[Recy Mech]

Great thread, really informative. Putting this all to 'future reference'.

[JayBoRover]

Dust cover for expander unit 515466. Not sure how it will let oil in - should not be any oil on the outside! But it is needed to keep water, mud and dust out of the actuator.To be honest, it's an assumption that the problem is oil getting inside. There is generally oil all over the brake drum, and I suspect it might be from the output shaft seal, and regular application of the handbrake while driving seems to make the brake work better for a few days - ie maybe until the oil re-soaks into the brake shoes.

Oil will usually get onto the brake shoes from a leaking rear seal. Yep - that's what I suspect. If you have not replaced this, it is probably a good idea. Yep But note that there is a slot machined on the surface the brake backing plate to allow any oil leakage to drain outside of the backing plate. Make sure that you do not block this when assembling the handbrake, and check it is clear every service. This is news to me. I'll check it when I actually take the drum assembly apart for a clean-up and to instal the new brake shoes.

On your comment about the bottom plate studs not being loctited - it might be worth noting that this box was designed (1947) before the invention of loctite (1953), and almost certainly made before its use received widespread acceptance (about 1970 - 1980).Fair call, but the gearbox has been overhauled only a couple of years ago. (There was a receipt in the documentation I got with the car - it's part of the reason I paid so much for the car ... we're all allowed to make mistakes.:()

John


Under that plate don't use the full sized gasket for the early model, as the early plates are a complete oval, but make yourself another gasket that is the same shape as the later half size plate.I just shot out to the shed to check and sure enough, I used the old full gasket. I see why you say not to use it as it leaves a small gap at the back/bottom where the half plate stops and the full gasket doesn't. I'll take some photo's of the gap and the difference when I fix it up.


With the other gaping holes that may be there, try and get the appropriate grommets, even if you can't make it completely water tight, it should slow it's demise in a creek crossing.The rubber grommet around the clutch actuator shaft is pretty bad but the shape is generally there. I think a good dollop of silicone will help - if I can't easil get a replacement to fit.
Sorry if you have already done this work, but water when it gets in, it doesn't do the clutch plate much good, the after effects can range from a slipping clutch and a red face to; a gearbox full of water, ruined throw out race, dead motor, the esky floating down the water way, wet very grumpy passengers and someone doing CPR on the driver.That doesn't sound like me at all!!! Honest!!!

Thanks so much for your feedback guys. Gotta love this place!:cool:
Cheers
John B

[drifter]

The rubber grommet around the clutch actuator shaft is pretty bad but the shape is generally there. I think a good dollop of silicone will help - if I can't easil get a replacement to fit.

The place I linked you to for the actuator boot - check him out for the grommet around the clutch actuator shaft - he used to carry spares for them (that's where I bought mine from).

[MacMan]

Hi Jaybo.

Just realised you're that nice fella with the even nicer white 450RR. We met at Safari a few months back when I was doing work for GHR. :D

[JayBoRover]

The place I linked you to for the actuator boot - check him out for the grommet around the clutch actuator shaft - he used to carry spares for them (that's where I bought mine from).
Hiya John.
Yep, both are on order. I had to restrain myself from buying other stuff when I looked at his eBay shop. Have to keep reminding myself of my upcoming Dakar costs.:eek:


Hi Jaybo.
Just realised you're that nice fella with the even nicer white 450RR. We met at Safari a few months back when I was doing work for GHR.
Heh heh. Small world isn't it mate. I remember chatting to you, with the camera always within reach;). The other half of the shed where I'm working on the S2a gearbox is the 450RR:cool::
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/1220.jpg

Cheers
John B

[JayBoRover]

Dust cover for expander unit 515466. Not sure how it will let oil in - should not be any oil on the outside! But it is needed to keep water, mud and dust out of the actuator.

Oil will usually get onto the brake shoes from a leaking rear seal. If you have not replaced this, it is probably a good idea. But note that there is a slot machined on the surface the brake backing plate to allow any oil leakage to drain outside of the backing plate. Make sure that you do not block this when assembling the handbrake, and check it is clear every service.

On your comment about the bottom plate studs not being loctited - it might be worth noting that this box was designed (1947) before the invention of loctite (1953), and almost certainly made before its use received widespread acceptance (about 1970 - 1980).

John
I opened up the handbrake drum and found everything completely soaked in oil:eek:. I think there was more oil in the handbrake drum than in the gearbox:D! So I cleaned everything, replaced the brake shoes and replaced the dust cover for the expander unit. (The rubber bits arrived today).

In the weekend I also discovered that the handbrake shoe kit also came with the replacement transfer box outlet seal, so that got changed too. Hopefully my new brake shoes will stay nice and clean and dry from now on. (Of course they will at the moment ... the entire gearbox, transfer box and handbrake drum are sitting on the workbench:p)

I did find the slot that is supposed to allow any oil that has escaped from the transfer box rear seal to escape before reaching the drum brake. It was clear and quite large, so not a problem.

Some photo's this weekend.
Ciao
John B

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

I found the best way to change that seal is to pull the speedo drive housing off and then tap the seal out from the inside of that housing.

Rover was using leather seals, that do weep, but spread the wear over a longer portion of the output flange seal surface. Most repairers now use the neoprene seals, however these seal concentrate the wear in one position, causing a wear line around the seal surface of the flange, but they generally stay dry.

Before you pull that housing off, you can check the preload on the bearing of the output shaft and there is a good description in the workshop manuals showing how to do this.
If you or anyone else reading this here, hasn't access to a manual, lets us know with a posting here and I will get off my sorry! and try scan the appropriate pages for you to follow.

[geodon]

"I found the best way to change that seal is to pull the speedo drive housing off and then tap the seal out from the inside of that housing."

OK, but if one is in a hurry.......

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-2-2a/143108-replacing-seal-behind-park-brake.html

[wrinklearthur]

"I found the best way to change that seal is to pull the speedo drive housing off and then tap the seal out from the inside of that housing."

OK, but if one is in a hurry....... :huh:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-2-2a/143108-replacing-seal-behind-park-brake.html :thumbsdown:

After looking at that thread ---- "the best way to change that seal is to pull the speedo drive housing off and then tap the seal out from the inside of that housing".
The time it takes to take that housing off is still quicker than the other way shown on that thread. :tease:

Taking the assembled parts apart does have a catch with the older series one and two's, ------- if you have done a few of these you will know--------
it's the 'BSF' factor. :bangin:
.

[JayBoRover]

It was a good day today:). In fact it was a great day today:D! Apologies for the lack of promised photo's of the final steps in the work but I got DeeDee up and driving today. Drove it around the block, up a down a hill and up and down through the gearbox a few times. Then to the shops to collect the takeaway order. Everything seems to be fine - in fact the gearbox feels very, very nice.

I took the opportunity while the seat box and floor plates were out to degrease and waterblast those parts of the chassis exposed and also the underneath of the seat box and floor plates.

The only problem I have discovered is that one of my highbeam lights isn't working. Something to look into tomorrow.

I'm a very happy chappy!!!:D
Ciao
John B

[JayBoRover]

An end to the loud bang, clatter, racket thread:). I flew in from NSW, where I'd been working for a couple of weeks, late last Thursday night, packed DeeDee up with camping gear, a "few" tools and I drove DeeDee from Perth to Busselton for the Super Special Stage of the Quit Forest Rally (where I was an official for the motorbike class). We then headed across to Nannup that evening. Then trusty DeeDee then did duties as an official car, ferrying the Motorcycling Australia Steward and I (Clerk of Course) to a couple of start/finish controls to check everything was running smoothly:cool:. Finally I drove back to Busselton on the Sunday night to attend the official prize giving function and then left Busselton around 10:15pm for the long drive back to Perth. DeeDee never missed a beat, took wind and heavy rain in stride (albeit quite slow stride, as the wipers don't work too well in those conditions so 80kph was okay) and I thoroughly enjoyed the driving. When the weather wasn't being foul, we travelled along at 100kph quite comfortably. I got lot's of comments on the old girl and I had many laughs with people:D.

I also discovered to my delight, by virtue of also discovering that Nannup has no LPG available at either of it's fuel stations, that both petrol tanks do not leak and DeeDee runs fine on petrol. (I ran on petrol from Busso to Mandurah to make sure). All in all, a great weekend:).

So I'll call it quits on the gearbox thread and start a new one for whatever calamity calls next:D:confused:.

Cheers to all for your advice to date.
John B