BEFORE FITTING A HOLDEN ENGINE CHECK ALIGMENT FIRST

[hodgo]

I believe this is what can happen if you have a poorly aligned adaptor:
[/URL]
[URL=http://s137.photobucket.com/user/jdobson1981/media/542_zps4f8f60a5.jpg.html]https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1142.jpg (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/jdobson1981/media/537_zps1e33a8f5.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1143.jpg (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/jdobson1981/media/544_zps73aa6237.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1144.jpg (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/jdobson1981/media/537_zps1e33a8f5.jpg.html)

As a lot of use know when a Holden or foreign engine is fitted to a Landrover gear box quite often the gear box self destructs shortly afterwords This is caused by miss alignment of the adapter plate used with errors in two places one being the locater dowel holes are not in the correct location, and the second error is where the bell housing bolts to the adapter plate if the combined tolerance is out by any more than 3th of an inch to the crankshaft it will destroy the front bearing in the gear box which in turn can and will destroy the hole gear box in a short period.
I hope this may save some one some time , money and sorrow
Below:- Holden engine striped of flywheel

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37855&stc=1&d=1312682329


Below :- Checking run out on adapter plate where bellhouseing bolts on.
This one was out by 9th

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37856&stc=1&d=1312682475

Below :- Checking run out of locating dowels
This one was out by 7th

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37857&stc=1&d=1312682706

I have been given permission to post the attachment by the owner of All Four X 4 Spares of Newcastle with a big thanks for allowing me to post.

Below:- Attachment with more details

Their you are Dianna reposted as requested

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Hodgo

In that last photo, the crankshaft is rotated to take the readings with the dial gauge, it would help to take the spark plugs out before doing this.

If they haven't access to a dial gauge, a suitable alternative is a bar bolted to the crankshaft and using a set of feeler gauges to take the measurements from under the tip of the bar.

One thing to watch out for, is crankshaft end float, keep the crankshaft pushed hard towards to back whilst taking any measurements.

Good posting for those having gearbox problems with their Holden powered conversions, thanks.

Cheers Arthur

[JayBoRover]

Fantastic article hodgo. Thank you so much for posting it:) - and I think Dianna for requesting re-posting it:D. (I printed the article out and then the site went down and when it came back the article was gone:eek:).

One question. I have my gearbox out at this very moment, as it seems to have destroyed itself somewhat, and I will check the alignment to the Holden adapter as suggested. The question is: what do you do about it if the tolerances are beyond those recommended? Does it mean the adapter has to come out for re-machining? Or is the bolting tension and sequence enough to pull it back into line? (Unless the dowels need adjustment to get the position corrected beyond the dowel limits).

I think the instructions mean that the alignment can't be done with the engine in the vehicle, even though the measurements can. If you need to "tap the adjuster plate" with the "four remaining bolts lose" then I think this might mean having access to the perimeter of the adapter plate and therefore the engine out. Am I correct? Is this procedure possible with the engine fitted?

the other downside is I'll have to remove the clutch from the end of the crankshaft to be able to fit the DTI as shown. I can't see that it would be possible with the clutch installed, but maybe someone can tell me different?

Cheers
John B

[hodgo]

ADAPTER PLATE TO BELLHOUSEING FIX
while doing the check be sure to mark you adapter plate using the clock method as shown in the attachment, then using a good marking pen shade the area where the high spot is, it then can be filed off depending on who much has to come off. It may be easier to get it lightly resurface ground depending how much has to come off

DOWEL HOLES FIX
This one is a bit tricky and time consuming
The only way we can see to fix this problem is to elongate the dowel holes with a rat tail file a small amount ( remember its only a few of thou that has to come off ) and see if the mounting studs still line up. After refitting the adapter plate, check for trueness then use liquid metal or knead it* to plug the holes and use plenty of lock tight on the studs

We have a couple of spare adapter plates which we are going to try on the engine the use then one that requires the least work.
I would be very interested to hear from any one that has other methods or ideas of fixing this problem.

*Knead it is a selly's product that sets as hard as metal and can be drilledand filed etc

Hodgo

[hodgo]

Hi Hodgo

In that last photo, the crankshaft is rotated to take the readings with the dial gauge, it would help to take the spark plugs out before doing this.

If they haven't access to a dial gauge, a suitable alternative is a bar bolted to the crankshaft and using a set of feeler gauges to take the measurements from under the tip of the bar.

One thing to watch out for, is crankshaft end float, keep the crankshaft pushed hard towards to back whilst taking any measurements.

Good posting for those having gearbox problems with their Holden powered conversions, thanks.

Cheers Arthur
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +

GDay Arthur

Mate I am not sure if you read the attachment right at the bottom of the page it talks about removing the spark plugs along with some good diagrams.
yes your remarks about crankshaft end float etc could have a bearing on results especially on a well worn engine.

Hodgo

[JDNSW]

A suggestion for correcting misaligned locating dowels.

Measure the correction as suggested and then turn (or get turned if you do not have access to a lathe) replacement dowels turned in two sections, offset by the needed correction, setting up the second section by using a four jaw chuck. A variant would be to make the offset more than needed and rotate the dowel to get the correct radial distance - twisting the adapter or bell housing by a few thou would have no ill effects that I can see. In either case a screwdriver slot in the end to turn it, and use of loktite to secure it in the correct position would be the route to follow.

Note, I have not tried this, and am open to improvements!

John

[wrinklearthur]

Mate I am not sure if you read the attachment right at the bottom of the page it talks about removing the spark plugs along with some good diagrams.

Hi Hodgo

I'm usually accused of repeating myself, not others, anyway thanks for bringing that oversight to my notice.

I'll have to add that to the birthday candle wax warnings, if I remember. :wheelchair: LOL

Cheers Arthur

[wagoo]

Holden dowels can be very difficult to remove, particularly with engine already fitted to the vehicle.I've dialled in a few over the years by simply drilling the dowel holes in the adaptor oversize to allow clearance to true it up cencentrically. Once zeroed in I drill a 1/4'' hole beside each dowell,(there is just enough space to do this) through the adaptor and into the engine and fit a 1/4'' roll pin to each.The drilled holes don't necessarily have to be 100% square. You can remove and refit the adaptor as many times as you like and it will still be true.

I have discovered over the years that often a holden with a dodgey adaptor has been fitted to a well used gearbox without issues. As soon as a reconditioned box is fitted, the offcentred crankshaft spigot bush wobbling the gearbox input shaft on the more rigid new bearing causes the 3rd/4th synchro teeth to wobble out of engagement with input gear and it pops out of top gear.
Wagoo.

[geodon]

Does this need to be done EACH time the engine (mine is a 186) and gear box are separated and the adaptor plate comes off?

Or is it a do it once & that's it?


I Imagine it's a reflection on the QUALITY of the conversion, too.


I got mine as a non-goer (the Holden diaphragm pressure plate had collapsed) and with a "spare" gearbox. Red Flag??


The car's in bits ATM so I can do it when the engine goes back into the rolling chassis.

[Bigbjorn]

Have you checked the mounting face on the Holden for true? Do it same way with the clock and mag base on the crank.

If you have not done this before, you can take up the end float by using a tyre lever or pinch bar to hold the crank pulley forward with light pressure.

You can face the back of the block if you have a big enough lathe. Strip the block and make a mandrel to clamp up in the main bearing caps then mount the lot between centres to take a facing cut.

[geodon]

Brian, I'm not equipped for the machining & I would have to buy the gear to measure run-out & alignment.

Seing the drive train is out, it would be an investment to trailer it to an engine workshop & pay them to measure, adjust & then fix it permanently.

The motor runs real well but I intend to dismantle the GB and at least put one of GaryCLR's kits in it.

[Bigbjorn]

A dial indicator and a magnetic base should not cost more than $60-$70 at today's exchange rates.

[geodon]

Brian you are dead on! Thanks.

I had a thought re this business:

If I remove the gearbox input shaft & plug it into an assembled engine with the clutch and adaptor plate on & rotate the engine by hand will I be able to see if it's true or if it's got the wobbles?

Perhaps via a dial indicator mounted on the adaptor & trained on the bearing or a gear?

[JDNSW]

There are two ways the adapter could be out of alignment. Either the mounting surfaces for the gearbox and engine are not parallel, or, more likely, lips that locate the bell housing and flywheel housing are not concentric. (A further possibility is that they have free play or rely on just the studs for alignment)

Both can be checked with the adapter mounted on the engine by mounting the dial gauge on the flywheel and rotating it slowly measuring the height of the adapter surface and the radius of the lip for the bell housing. Obviously the reading should be the same all the way round for both.

John

[geodon]

I've read & re-read the alignment procedure and there is one thing I find a bit disturbing:
The location of the magnetic base of the dial indicator onto the back of the crankshaft means it's a LOOONG way to the dowels & mounting points of the bell housing leading certainly a significant risk of variability and possibly to an increased risk of error.

Would it not be better to mount the flywheel then plonk the magnetic base near the rim & measure the centripetal (?) and axial gaps as it rotates? This also may be a way to make sure the flywheel is true.

It would not matter where the base is as we are measuring the differences in the gap between several different points and it (the base) does not move. Correct?

(Well derrr! as per John's post 2/12!!)

[jdobson]

I believe this is what happens if you have a poorly aligned adaptor:
[/URL]
[URL=http://s137.photobucket.com/user/jdobson1981/media/542_zps4f8f60a5.jpg.html]https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1142.jpg (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/jdobson1981/media/537_zps1e33a8f5.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1143.jpg (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/jdobson1981/media/544_zps73aa6237.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1144.jpg (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/jdobson1981/media/537_zps1e33a8f5.jpg.html)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have quoted the above images to the begining of the thread as a visual example.