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Wallydog
10th August 2011, 09:13 PM
Just saw Ive got a patch of gear oil dripping from the bottom of swivel ball housing onto the garage floor and seeping under the tyre. had a quick look at the swivel ball seal and it looks like its not coming from there. Its a fairly bad leak. I haven';t pulled down a swivel ball setup before so its a learning curve.

theres noticeable play in the up/down movement of the wheel so there may be wheel bearing or more sinister swivel problem?

What other areas on the swivel ball are prone to leaking gear oil. It wasn't leaking oil before because it had no oil in it. Any advice always appreciated. W.

Mick_Marsh
10th August 2011, 09:20 PM
could be the gasket on the hub.
Easy to replace and you can check you wheel bearings while you're at it. I've changed that gasket a few times. If I can do it, anyone can.

Wallydog
10th August 2011, 09:38 PM
could be the gasket on the hub.
Easy to replace and you can check you wheel bearings while you're at it. I've changed that gasket a few times. If I can do it, anyone can.

Thanks Mick, I know the gasket your talking about, I serviced the rear wheel hubs today, replaced hub seals, washdown and greased up the bearings and a good splodge in the hub. I made new gaskets for the axle / hub flange.

one side, on the rear there was oil leaking onto the outer side of the tyre. There was no gasket fitted there although an attempt was made with blue silicone, it didn't work.

Ive got freewheeling hubs on the front so will attend to those on the way.

MR LSD
10th August 2011, 09:40 PM
could be the gasket on the hub.
Easy to replace and you can check you wheel bearings while you're at it. I've changed that gasket a few times. If I can do it, anyone can. the land rover recall back in the day was to drop the oil and fill with high temp grease:)

Lotz-A-Landies
10th August 2011, 09:45 PM
the land rover recall back in the day was to drop the oil and fill with high temp grease:)Which resulted in excessive wear on the uni-joint and railko top swivel bush.

Wallydog
10th August 2011, 10:22 PM
It seems from what ive read over the net that the 'one shot' swivel ball grease is a popular alternative to EP90 oil. From what I understand it is a measured slurry mix of selected grease and oil and some Land Rover spare parts sellers flog it.

Im still not clear whether its a LR approved method or an aftermarket fix for leaky swivel balls.

Lotz-A-Landies
10th August 2011, 10:29 PM
It seems from what ive read over the net that the 'one shot' swivel ball grease is a popular alternative to EP90 oil. From what I understand it is a measured slurry mix of selected grease and oil and some Land Rover spare parts sellers flog it.

Im still not clear whether its a LR approved method or an aftermarket fix for leaky swivel balls.Penrite used to have their brand of one shot (Semi-Fluid grease) on their list of recommended lubricants for Land Rover. They have subsequently removed it, one can only surmise that either Penrite or Land Rover (or their respective lawyers) decided it was not a good idea.

Wolfman_TWP
11th August 2011, 11:24 AM
It seems from what ive read over the net that the 'one shot' swivel ball grease is a popular alternative to EP90 oil. From what I understand it is a measured slurry mix of selected grease and oil and some Land Rover spare parts sellers flog it.

Im still not clear whether its a LR approved method or an aftermarket fix for leaky swivel balls.

The 'one shot' will still leak. I had redone both my front swivel housings. (New balls on both and seals etc.) But the first one I did, I didn't replace the 'O' ring (Didn't have a new one) from the steering arm. And now it's leaking from there.. The other side I did two things. 1. I replaced the 'O' ring with a new, and 2. I used gasket sealer (Not silicone), between the swivel housing and steering arm and that one isn't leaking.

Wolf

isuzurover
11th August 2011, 12:53 PM
Oil and only oil IMHO if you want the internals to last.

If the swivels are leaking you will see a trail of oil from the swivel seal, down the swivel (outer) housing, which will drip onto the inside of the tyre.

IME leaks are caused by worn swivel pins as often as worn swivel seals.

IMO it is best to remove the internal seals so that the diff, swivels and hubs share the same oil.

gromit
11th August 2011, 02:43 PM
It seems from what ive read over the net that the 'one shot' swivel ball grease is a popular alternative to EP90 oil. From what I understand it is a measured slurry mix of selected grease and oil and some Land Rover spare parts sellers flog it.

Im still not clear whether its a LR approved method or an aftermarket fix for leaky swivel balls.


My Defender has LR stickers under the bonnet detailing the change to one-shot grease so I guess it was an 'approved' LR fix.

The oil level was dropped and the sachet of semi-liquid grease added. The mix is still fluid just needs a a much bigger gap before it can drip out :)
You can get split seals which are much easier to install. Never done it myself but the theory is you put the join at the top with I guess a dob of silicon sealant on it. The slight leak from the split lubricates the swivel ball ?

4-Wheel Drives in Blackburn have the seals (Indian) on special at the moment for $5each but they are out of stock. They also sometimes carry the split seals.


Colin

Wallydog
11th August 2011, 02:48 PM
Oil and only oil IMHO if you want the internals to last.

If the swivels are leaking you will see a trail of oil from the swivel seal, down the swivel (outer) housing, which will drip onto the inside of the tyre.

IME leaks are caused by worn swivel pins as often as worn swivel seals.

IMO it is best to remove the internal seals so that the diff, swivels and hubs share the same oil.

Interesting about the seal removal. Yes i found the trail as i had better light today, the seal is suspect but its prob because the swivel pins n bearings are well worn. Ill have to put a kit through it to pass the roadworthy.thanks for your input. W

ashhhhh
11th August 2011, 03:01 PM
If its any consolation its not a terribly hard job.
I got my kit through CLR and it went smoothly. (messy though) :cool:

Wallydog
11th August 2011, 03:08 PM
My Defender has LR stickers under the bonnet detailing the change to one-shot grease so I guess it was an 'approved' LR fix.

The oil level was dropped and the sachet of semi-liquid grease added. The mix is still fluid just needs a a much bigger gap before it can drip out :)
You can get split seals which are much easier to install. Never done it myself but the theory is you put the join at the top with I guess a dob of silicon sealant on it. The slight leak from the split lubricates the swivel ball ?

4-Wheel Drives in Blackburn have the seals (Indian) on special at the moment for $5each but they are out of stock. They also sometimes carry the split seals.

Colin

As I understand it you would think the uni joint half shaft wouldn;t need as much lubing as a CV joint so should be ok for the series hubs? But the top Railco bush might suffer from not getting oiled up? I have to put a repair kit through it so Ill see if the oil stays in. If not Ill get the slurry and one shot it.Yes I read you can cut the swivel seals with a thin hacksaw and blade and pop them on without a pulldown. Buying them already split would be ideal.

theres no wheel wobbles at higher speeds and no effect through the steering but i have to get it done for the roadworthy inspection......iwhich Ive been trying to get to for months but keep on finding faults to fix dammit. Just found a hole in the muffler and timing cover oil seal leaks. W

Wallydog
11th August 2011, 03:11 PM
If its any consolation its not a terribly hard job.
I got my kit through CLR and it went smoothly. (messy though) :cool:

asssh did yours leak not long after? W

isuzurover
11th August 2011, 03:22 PM
Yes I read you can cut the swivel seals with a thin hacksaw and blade and pop them on without a pulldown. Buying them already split would be ideal.

I doubt you could successfully. It would probably only do the job if you were using thick grease. There is a spring inside the seal which holds it against the ball.

The "cut seal" idea is for people who don't want to dismantle the swivel and/or remove the swivel ball from the axle. Since you need to remove the swivel housing to fix the bush, it is only another 6 bolts to remove the ball (which is needed to press the bush in/out anyway).

Make sure you use a small amount of silicone on the outer diameter of the seal.

Wallydog
11th August 2011, 03:37 PM
I doubt you could successfully. It would probably only do the job if you were using thick grease. There is a spring inside the seal which holds it against the ball.

The "cut seal" idea is for people who don't want to dismantle the swivel and/or remove the swivel ball from the axle. Since you need to remove the swivel housing to fix the bush, it is only another 6 bolts to remove the ball (which is needed to press the bush in/out anyway).

Make sure you use a small amount of silicone on the outer diameter of the seal.

Yes Im with you. I wouldn't use a split one when i have the swivel ball off the vehicle. Silicone on the outer of the seal I will do

I read about that method on Terri-Annes LR site. I understand its 'the easy way out method' when you don't want to go the whole hog Im more intersted in doing the job properly.

gromit
11th August 2011, 05:44 PM
I doubt you could successfully. It would probably only do the job if you were using thick grease. There is a spring inside the seal which holds it against the ball.

The "cut seal" idea is for people who don't want to dismantle the swivel and/or remove the swivel ball from the axle. Since you need to remove the swivel housing to fix the bush, it is only another 6 bolts to remove the ball (which is needed to press the bush in/out anyway).

Make sure you use a small amount of silicone on the outer diameter of the seal.

I think the idea is to remove the garter spring before cutting but whether you can stretch it over the hub and brake backplate to pop it on once the seal is roughly in position is debatable. There is a join in the garter spring where one end is twisted into the other so maybe it can be untwisted to fit ?
One tip my father-in-law gave me was to fill the void between the two lips of the seal with water resistant (boating) grease. His theory was it would lubricate the swivel ball & stop water getting back into the hub. It wouldn't do any harm I guess...

Colin

isuzurover
11th August 2011, 05:49 PM
One tip my father-in-law gave me was to fill the void between the two lips of the seal with water resistant (boating) grease. His theory was it would lubricate the swivel ball & stop water getting back into the hub. It wouldn't do any harm I guess...

Colin

I always grease the lips of oil seals (usually with marine grease) when installing.

JDNSW
11th August 2011, 07:34 PM
I always grease the lips of oil seals (usually with marine grease) when installing.

Yes, although I use wheel bearing grease - not usually much water here! I have used a (bought) cut seal in the past - you can unhook the spring and rehook it round the axle. The seal was a lot more flexible than the normal one - a lot less steel backing - I would not like to try cutting a standard one and then manoeuvring it round the axle without damaging it - had to cut the old ones to get them off and getting them off was a major job.

Surprisingly, the split seal worked quite well for about ten years, but was replaced by a standard one when I needed to replace the swivel bushes and pins.

Worth noting however, that if the swivel is loose, you will never get the seal to work. I have found that if the preload is low and actually allows movement, the seal will leak. Any free play will allow the seal to move away from the ball, and several times I have found that simply adjusting the preload makes the leak go away.

John

wrinklearthur
11th August 2011, 08:51 PM
One tip my father-in-law gave me was to fill the void between the two lips of the seal with water resistant (boating) grease. His theory was it would lubricate the swivel ball & stop water getting back into the hub. It wouldn't do any harm I guess...

Colin
Hi Colin

I'm in two minds about that, packing grease into the seal, would keep clean water out, but if you are in sandy conditions, the grease would soon get enough dust mixed with it to become really abrasive.

Cheers Arthur

gromit
12th August 2011, 06:45 AM
Hi Colin

I'm in two minds about that, packing grease into the seal, would keep clean water out, but if you are in sandy conditions, the grease would soon get enough dust mixed with it to become really abrasive.

Cheers Arthur

Arthur,

I know what you mean but as soon as the slightest bit of oil gets past the inner seal you get the same scenario. The outer lip shouldn't let any dirt in unless it's worn.

The father-in-law had a sluice box built on his 80" and it spent a lot of it's time in the Goulburn river, probably why water ingress was of more concern to him.

Colin

ashhhhh
12th August 2011, 09:22 AM
asssh did yours leak not long after? W

No problems at all mate.
It was the swivel pin which was the main issue on mine, even without shims there was no preload.
I run straight oil and it never leaks.

I had the grease in there prior and it was a pain.
It makes it very difficult to see how much is in the swivel and if top-up is required.

wagoo
12th August 2011, 06:50 PM
How did I miss this thread Steve?
Just last week I finally traced and fixed a swivel seal leak that has been bugging me for about 8 years. Having portals that share the lubricant supply with the rest of the front axle, I don't have the option of using grease in the swivels. For ages I couldn't trace where the oil was getting out, but last week decided to wash everything down and lay under the truck until oil began to appear again.It turned out that it wasn't getting past the lips of the seal, but from around the outer circumference through the recessed seat in the outer swivel housing and out from under the metal seal retainer.
I removed the 6 bolts from the retainer and pulled the seal away to have a look. I noticed a thin uneven layer of crud in the machined recess of the housing where the inner edge of the seal body seats against. Oil was getting past the gaps in the layer of crud, so with a sharp scraper I cleaned the crud away, reinstalled the seal, refilled with oil and lay down for another half hour to check for leaks. Sure enough oil began to creep out again from under the metal retainer, so I deduced that the retainer wasn;t applying enough pressure against the seal for it to seat correctly in the outer swivel housing. I thought about cutting a large shim from thin sheet metal to fit between the retainer and the seal, but then elected instead to attack the retainer with a ball ended hammer to apply more seating pressure to the seal.
The repair was 100% successful, no leaks or seeping whatsoever, despite my seals being old, bent and banged up from regularly ploughing through and over fallen trees and branches on my land .
One other factor that determins the effectiveness of the swivel seal, is how much off centre the outer swivel housing is in relation to the swivel ball. This is adjustable by transposing shims between the upper and lower swivel pins, once you have acheived the correct preload.I check mine with a vernier with the seal removed.
Wagoo.

Wallydog
12th August 2011, 10:57 PM
How did I miss this thread Steve?
Just last week I finally traced and fixed a swivel seal leak that has been bugging me for about 8 years. Having portals that share the lubricant supply with the rest of the front axle, I don't have the option of using grease in the swivels. For ages I couldn't trace where the oil was getting out, but last week decided to wash everything down and lay under the truck until oil began to appear again.It turned out that it wasn't getting past the lips of the seal, but from around the outer circumference through the recessed seat in the outer swivel housing and out from under the metal seal retainer.
I removed the 6 bolts from the retainer and pulled the seal away to have a look. I noticed a thin uneven layer of crud in the machined recess of the housing where the inner edge of the seal body seats against. Oil was getting past the gaps in the layer of crud, so with a sharp scraper I cleaned the crud away, reinstalled the seal, refilled with oil and lay down for another half hour to check for leaks. Sure enough oil began to creep out again from under the metal retainer, so I deduced that the retainer wasn;t applying enough pressure against the seal for it to seat correctly in the outer swivel housing. I thought about cutting a large shim from thin sheet metal to fit between the retainer and the seal, but then elected instead to attack the retainer with a ball ended hammer to apply more seating pressure to the seal.
The repair was 100% successful, no leaks or seeping whatsoever, despite my seals being old, bent and banged up from regularly ploughing through and over fallen trees and branches on my land .
One other factor that determins the effectiveness of the swivel seal, is how much off centre the outer swivel housing is in relation to the swivel ball. This is adjustable by transposing shims between the upper and lower swivel pins, once you have acheived the correct preload.I check mine with a vernier with the seal removed.
Wagoo.

Good work Wagoo. Unfortunately for me the swivel pins are rockin and clunking so I need to repair that first. Could be that movement is part of the leaky problem. Interesting about the retainer, it could well be that mine needs attention in that area? I will take note of that and the centreing of the ball to housing. Ill set up the lights and do a thorough washdown and lie under there and watch the oil flow. Thanks for the tips and good work with that ballpein. S.

Wallydog
12th August 2011, 11:05 PM
No problems at all mate.
It was the swivel pin which was the main issue on mine, even without shims there was no preload.
I run straight oil and it never leaks.

I had the grease in there prior and it was a pain.
It makes it very difficult to see how much is in the swivel and if top-up is required.

Good one ashhhh, i just had this recollection of someone doing the job and the damn thing leaked not long after. It wasn't you and thats good. Hopefully I get the same result. I see you used Gary CLRs kit, i will source a kit from him next week. Some of the parts i get from him are from Bearmach which do the job. W

JDNSW
13th August 2011, 05:39 AM
....... Could be that movement is part of the leaky problem. ......

My feeling is that it is likely to be 100% of the problem! But since you have to replace the bushes (and maybe pin and lower bearing) you should fit new seals.

I always put a little sealant in the recess to ensure that there is no leak there, but of course the retainer must press the seal firmly into place, otherwise it will be loose on the ball as well.

John

ashhhhh
13th August 2011, 05:50 PM
My feeling is that it is likely to be 100% of the problem!
Yeah I agree.
The first I knew about the worn pins on mine was when I jacked the front-end up for some other job.
The wheel rocked inwards because of the play (5mm+) and grease immediately oozed out between the seal and ball.

Wallydog
15th August 2011, 10:50 AM
My feeling is that it is likely to be 100% of the problem! But since you have to replace the bushes (and maybe pin and lower bearing) you should fit new seals.

I always put a little sealant in the recess to ensure that there is no leak there, but of course the retainer must press the seal firmly into place, otherwise it will be loose on the ball as well.

John

John thanks. Both sides have play in them but drivers side is not bad at all. Very small amount of movement and there appears to be no oil dripping. Might leave that side and see what rego inspector says about it. You really have to give it a good shake to feel the small amount of play whereas the other side requires little effort to make the swivel pins move and clunk.

Ill get a kit from CLR, it comes with pins, seals, bushes gaskets etc and the bottom bearing so will attempt to do a thorough job. W.

wagoo
15th August 2011, 06:11 PM
John thanks. Both sides have play in them but drivers side is not bad at all. Very small amount of movement and there appears to be no oil dripping. Might leave that side and see what rego inspector says about it. You really have to give it a good shake to feel the small amount of play whereas the other side requires little effort to make the swivel pins move and clunk.

Ill get a kit from CLR, it comes with pins, seals, bushes gaskets etc and the bottom bearing so will attempt to do a thorough job. W.

It may have already been mentioned on other posts but,before weilding any spanners,and if working alone, an easy way to check where the movement is coming from is to jack the offending wheel off the ground,apply pressure to and prop the brake pedal down with a suitable stick, If movement disappears, wheel bearings require adjustment, If movement can still be felt but is reduced,then both the wheel bearings and swivels require attention,
Wagoo,