D3/RRS Pregnant Pause at Roundabouts

[101RRS]

Plenty has been written about the pregnant pause that occurs when you slow down for lights or roundabouts and then decide to proceed but nothing happens for a second or two and then you are off like a scalded cat.

Doesn't happen in command shift so not s turbo lag issue - consensus is just a gearbox programming issue.

I have had to lend my car to a friend for a few days and he does not like driving it around town because of this issue - he claims the problem makes the car too dangerous to drive in roundabouts etc - the pregnant pause for a second or two and if the accelerator has been floored to compensate then explosive acceleration. Now when I first got the car I would have agreed but with 15,000km under my belt I anticipate it and now rarely get caught out in closing traffic with no go.

My car is a 07MY and I understand there is a software upgrade to alleviate the problem. With the exception of recalls my car has never been to a dealer so has had no software upgrades. Each time I visit the dealer and ask about the costs of software upgrades they do not seem interested and are vague about costs etc - basically normal labour cost for however long it takes.

So has anyone had their gearbox software updated?? Does it cure the pregnant pause in acceleration and what are the costs??

Thanks

Garry

[WhiteD3]

I had my 2007 D3 SE updated for this issue last year and it did make a huge difference. The dead spot was still there but occurred far less frequently.

[Tusker]

I see in road tests the new Ford Territory with the 2.7 diesel & 6 speed has the same issue too.

Regards
Max P

[~Rich~]

Yes the software update for the gearbox helps but a Remap truly fixes it!
You choice which one, I recommend the BAS Remap. :)

[Celtoid]

D4 3.0l has the same problem, though like you, it rarely catches me out anymore, as I must have adjusted my driving style. If a D4 still has the issue I suspect that any software upgrade would not be a complete fix.

In heavy traffic I sometimes select Sports mode, when approaching roundabouts, etc. I don't even know I'm doing it. Generally I don't worry about it, and rarely have an issue....I must have adapted to the adaptive gear box....LOL!!!

Cheers,

Kev.

[101RRS]

Yes the software update for the gearbox helps but a Remap truly fixes it!
You choice which one, I recommend the BAS Remap. :)

So the remap also does the gearcox ecu as well as engine ecu?? the issue being when rolling in to a roundabout and still doing 10-15kph, the gearbox does not seem to change down below third and when you put your food down the box is in too high a gear and hesitates until it changes down a gear - maybe it does this to endure the turbo is always spooled up but as Command Shift shows when you change down manually, even if the engine is off boost there is plenty of power to take off when coasting.

Thanks to everyone - I might see if I can hold the dealer down for a quote to upgrade the software - am looking at a remap down the track.

Cheers

Garry

[~Rich~]

No the Remap does not reflash any CPU but the engine mapping,these are seperate modules of which the vehicles have many. I had 5 modules software updated last week to fix other electrical issues I had.
My mechanic uses Autologic and would charge $110 for this software update, he explained they have download te existing file off the car and email it to the UK, Autologic emails back the most up to date correct file for your car which they upload.
I'm sure others who have had a remap will verify the pause you speak of disappears.

[vnx205]

At the risk of being labelled a Luddite, I must say I can't help wondering if this is another example of the boffins thinking it is their job to make cars that are cleverer than their drivers.

It seems that engineers, in many cases software engineers, come up with some really clever security/ safety/ environmental feature that seems like a good idea on paper, but which fails to consider or fails to realise the importance of some real world situation where the "feature" becomes a nuisance or a liability.

I am aware of the fact that cars are safer, more reliable and more economical than they used to be, but that doesn't disguise the fact that increasingly we hear of instances where the boffins don't quite get it right. Prius's safety problems, at first blamed on the floor mats, were apparently a software issue. Just ask drivesafe about the problems that can arise from electrical failures in a lot of modern vehicles or read his "Most dangerous 4x4" thread.

[Disco4SE]

I have the D4 3.0Lt and the only time this happens to me is when I start it first thing in the morning and go to pull away from an intersection, otherwise, all good.
Cheers, Craig

[kenf]

Rich, Thanks for your post info. My related issue is during higher speed highway overtaking at midway point we lose power/speed for a frightening period and with great concern and embarrassment have to retire from the manouevre. Dealers cannot reproduce this situation at test drive . Do you think your Auto Logic consult would be a suitable pursuit. If so, can you nominate your contact?
Cheers

[~Rich~]

PM sent Kenf.
Ayers Automotive at Brookvale.
Loan cars available.
Ayers Automotive Pty Ltd (http://aauto.com.au/)

[WhiteD3]

I had my 2007 D3 SE updated for this issue last year and it did make a huge difference. The dead spot was still there but occurred far less frequently.

I should have said that my D4 2.7 does not do it at all.

[stig0000]

if this happends for over 2 seconds there may be a fualt with the brake switch, known issue, we had a car that would not power on for about 5-10 seconds,, ( and when your mid rounda bout is not a good thing) found to be brake controler wired wrong witch had fried the brake switch,

if you have eny car fit a dioide,, there cheap easy and work, a must do on eny rover,,, and probs eny car that is elec fuel controled,

[superquag]

At the risk of being labelled a Luddite,.

I'M the resident Luddite......:p

But you're correct, Software engineers are getting too clever for themselves... but then again, they may have learned something from the @#$% idjits who superseeded the LT230 transfer with the Viscious Coupling...all to save the driver the mental/physical effort in operating the Diff-Lock..

Superquag

[SurfinDad]

How did you go Garry?
I have a 2005 V8 D3 doing the exact same thing, I'd be interested to hear how your upgrade went if you had it done.
Steve

[101RRS]

Learn to live with it - the remap made no difference and the cost of any software updates at the dealer is over the top.

It seems that all vehicles that have the TDV6/ZF six speed combinations including the Jags, French brands and even the Territory have the same issue.

Driving style can overcome the issue eg not flooring it but only going to 3/4 throttle and then full when speed has picked up a little.

I am still of the view it is a gearbox issue and not turbo lag as there is no issue in command shift and less of an issue in sport. If engine related it would be there irrespective of gearbox mode.

Garry

[~Rich~]

Have a drive of your car with TC set in "Sand" mode, it wont hurt anything apart from giving you a bigger permagrin.

[rb30gtr]

Yep 07 TDv6 here, had the same issue and I did think it may have been the gearbox not being serviced issue due to the high kms, however

Alto LR did my software update when I had the brakes done for the recall and the hesitation is gone.
In fact it is completely non noticeable. I highly recommend getting it sorted

It isn't engine/turbo lag related.
It is the gearbox, and when I spent some time in FG falcon's and Diesel Territory's I realised they didn't do it so maybe it was something that could be fixed.

[sheerluck]

How did you go Garry?
I have a 2005 V8 D3 doing the exact same thing, I'd be interested to hear how your upgrade went if you had it done.
Steve

You found us then Steve? :D

You must have jumped straight on after getting home!

[oldsalt]

I have the D4 3.0Lt and the only time this happens to me is when I start it first thing in the morning and go to pull away from an intersection, otherwise, all good.
Cheers, Craig

Mine does it first thing upon startup - I have a T intersection at the end of my street and I have to use "sport" mode or I'm left with "not a lot of go" when turning right across the oncoming traffic - it behaves normally after a few hundred yards of driving... maybe the gearbox tries to "learn" my driving style each morning ??? I'm used to it now and act accordingly but I'd be wary of lending my car to anybody else to drive without a full pre-flight briefing as they could get caught out (with disastrous results)
Then again after 21 years of VW driving where I was left with "not a lot of go" just about all the time this is a great improvement I must say...;)

[V2Evo96]

Not only TD versions. I have a late model D3 4.0L that has a slight hesitation especially first thing in the morning but I can invoke it anytime by coasting up to a near stop then accelerating a bit.
Definite hesitation before JUMPING ahead slightly..... I figured it was a gearbox issue.... could be proven wrong however (usually) :-)

[Basil135]

MY13 D4 3.0l LP

Mine does exactly this, regardless of the current temp.

I have about 4 round-abouts to get thru on the way home, and unless I get a straight run thru it, or stop totally, I will get the "pause"

It IS worse in the mornings, especially when I have to do a dash across the main road.

Just wondering, have people advised their dealers of this issue, and if so, do they call it a "feature" or "thats just the way it is"?

At the wrong time, it could be bloody dangerous...:eek:

[CaverD3]

There is a software update for this. Check DISCO3.CO.UK - Index (http://www.disco3.co.uk)

[101RRS]

There is a software update for this. Check DISCO3.CO.UK - Index (http://www.disco3.co.uk)

That link just takes you to the Disco3 Home page.

Garry

[CaverD3]

Do a search. ;)

[Basil135]

I should have added, that I have found a "work-around" of sorts.

If I drive the car in S (speedy???) mode, for the 20km trip home from work, the next time I drive it in D, it seems to be better.

So, to me at least, it appears that the adaptive transmission is adapting, but not staying...

[mijango]

I have the same issue with my D4 TDV6 Se MY11. What sort of cost am I looking at to get the software patch updated? (which sounds like the true way to fix the problem?) I've used Alto in Sydney previously though happy to use elsewhere (tho guessing main dealer is only place that has the software patch tool thing)

[phl]

MY13 D4 3.0l LP

Mine does exactly this, regardless of the current temp.

I have about 4 round-abouts to get thru on the way home, and unless I get a straight run thru it, or stop totally, I will get the "pause"


The fix has been available for some months now; I've had it (and an earlier one) applied, and not only is the problem no longer present, it changes down much more smoothly too.

[Basil135]

Thanks for that.

Good excuse to drop it into the dealer and get all the niggly little issues sorted and this one as well. :D

[Armitage_Shanks]

Is there a Technical Bulletin associated with this problem? Something that I can take to the dealer which directs them to the software update required?

[phl]

Looking at the job sheet I got, you have to specifically complain about the hesitation and make comments that you had a few close calls. From memory the patch was only applied if you specifically complained about the hesitation.

[vs2]

I have the same problem in my NZ new '13 SDV6. Dealer knew of no update and said some vehicles had a faulty brake switch which caused similar issues. My Nanocom Evo shows no updates available.

[vs2]

Also found this on the disco3 forum. My VIN is in this range. Would be nice to find out if this is also for Aus/NZ cars? I don't know how different our spec's are ie, no DPF etc.

LTB00545

Issued 14 MAY 2013

Model Year 2012 - 2013

VIN Range CA596988 to DA677290

Customer may complain of a hesitation at a low rolling speed, for example when approaching a traffic island / roundabout

Cause - Software calibration, engine acceleration and downshifts 4-3-2

Automatic Transmission - tune download SRO 44.90.10 Casual part LR041171

[phl]

I have the same problem in my NZ new '13 SDV6. Dealer knew of no update and said some vehicles had a faulty brake switch which caused similar issues. My Nanocom Evo shows no updates available.

May not be keen to do the update; apparently has to be plugged in, and if they have the latest software update for their system, it will automatically update the firmware in the transmission. Might be a several hour operation.

Don't think the Nanocom would show such updates as it's internal LR updates, would it?

[vs2]

From what I can gather it is not an official update and only given on an individual basis.

My car was a demo with 5k on the clock. The hesitation happened only once when I first got the car and the car was cold, but did scare me and my passenger as I was turning right onto a 80 kmh road with a truck coming the other way and I had to put my foot into it half way though the turn as nothing was happening.

Still worries me at intersections and I'll wait for the Nanocom to have the 'adaptive reset' available and maybe try that first but then again maybe I am just getting used to driving this big diesel. My last car was an XFR and a completely different driving experience.

[phl]

I can tell you now adaptive reset does nothing if you have the real hesitation problem; that's what was tried first as at the time the original update was not yet available in Australia.

[Basil135]

Had my car in today for its "Health Check", and had put this issue at the top of the list.

Thought I used all the appropriate words, like "scary" and "dangerous" etc.

They told me that the car "has the latest software" can they couldn't replicate the fault. In their defence, the car did behave itself all the way home tonight, and they have asked for me to drop in tomorrow morning, and take their senior techo for a drive, so he can see the conditions that are causing it.

They did fix a couple of other boring issues, and will have the assessor in tomorrow for the panel damage... but thats another story..:nazilock:

[Basil135]

Just had a call from the dealer, and the black beast is ready to go.

Took the senior service tech for a drive this morning, to replicate the issue, and gave him a print of this thread, with the update highlighted.

He wasn't aware of the update, and of course, the car behaved herself with him in it. He even asked if I had owned a Disco before... ummm, yea.. a D2 and it's NOT turbo lag that I am experiencing now... :cool:

I even mentioned that I thrashed a 2.7l D4 last week on the way home, and that showed no signs of lag. :D :angel:

But, he did say that when he looked at the car yesterday, he was told that it was an engine issue, and nothing was mentioned about the transmission.

Anyway, they have updated the transmission software to the one mentioned here, and also adjusted the brake light switch, so we will see how it goes.

Interesting to note that on the UK forums, some people have experienced the lag getting worse after the update, so time will tell.

[101RRS]

Interesting to note that on the UK forums, some people have experienced the lag getting worse after the update, so time will tell.

I have researched this extensively and one of the reasons I have not gone for a software update is because of its cost and my research has shown it does not work - however there are some who claims it does.

I find that if you do not floor the accelerator the issue rarely shows itself and you accelerate at a reasonable pace. If you floor the accelerator you often get the pregnant pause - in my view it is the gearbox ECU not knowing whether to change down (it should have already done so) or to wait in the gear it is in - it does nothing until the ECU realised the accelerator is paused and the it changes down and is off like a scalded cat.

Some dispute this but my research has shown the issue occurs in all makes of cars (including the Territory) where this engine/gearbox combination is installed. I think is it Landrover, Ford Territory, Jaguar, Citroen and Peugeot.

Garry

[phl]

I have researched this extensively and one of the reasons I have not gone for a software update is because of its cost and my research has shown it does not work - however there are some who claims it does.


Garry,

The update I was referring to is for the MY13 and later with the 8 speed box, not the earlier models. There may be a different fix for the 6 speed box.

But this fix for the 8 speed box will be covered under warranty, as the cars would still be under 3 years old.

[bob2s]

Have a MY13 with the 8 speed and experienced the hesitation at roundabouts,just had the first 6 month health check done and complained about how dangerous the hesitation is.Well when i picked it up after service the service guy said that the car had registered a few codes to do with the hesitation and that the brake switch was out of adjustment.Another 1000ks on and so far no more hesitation

[Gippslander]

I don't know if this is the same problem my wife's D3 08 with 80,000 km on the clock sometimes seems like there is slack in the transmission and when you have coasted up to a corner/round about then put your foot down it seems to lag then take up similar to the old Discovery 1's transmission with the faulty splines inside the transfer case. Is this the same problem or have i got something else, also is it worth while getting the removable transmission sump and new filter installed i hear stories of transmission failure which have not been serviced.
Any help will be appreciated.

[WhiteD3]

This happened a lot in the D3; not so much in the D4. My LR service manager said, and I agreed, the issue was caused by the carputer thinking too long about whether to shift down or hold the gear. I found that I could anticipate this hesitation and force a decision by a very small application of throttle. Gently "Drive out of the corner" but there's still this dead spot where nothing appears to happen for a second or two.

[Basil135]

This happened a lot in the D3; not so much in the D4. My LR service manager said, and I agreed, the issue was caused by the carputer thinking too long about whether to shift down or hold the gear. I found that I could anticipate this hesitation and force a decision by a very small application of throttle. Gently "Drive out of the corner" but there's still this dead spot where nothing appears to happen for a second or two.

That is how I explained it to mine as well, but added the adjectives, like "dangerous" and "scary" :eek:

[Basil135]

Have a MY13 with the 8 speed and experienced the hesitation at roundabouts,just had the first 6 month health check done and complained about how dangerous the hesitation is.Well when i picked it up after service the service guy said that the car had registered a few codes to do with the hesitation and that the brake switch was out of adjustment.Another 1000ks on and so far no more hesitation

Well, after nearly a week, I have noticed the situation is greatly improved.

My dealer wasn't aware of the update, but once I gave them the details, they investigated, and were happy to put it in. Likewise, they also adjusted the brake light switch.

Fingers crossed.

[101RRS]

but this pregnant pause is mainly found on the 8 speed, D4's.

Not sure where you got that from as the issue was being complained about long before the D4 came out let alone the 8 speed.

[CaverD3]

There was always an issue with D3s which was sorted via a software update TSB "should a customer comlpain.............". ;)
There is a similar issue with the 8 speed D4s which has recently been solved by a software update TSB as well.

[Basil135]

Not sure where you got that from as the issue was being complained about long before the D4 came out let alone the 8 speed.


There was always an issue with D3s which was sorted via a software update TSB "should a customer comlpain.............". ;)
There is a similar issue with the 8 speed D4s which has recently been solved by a software update TSB as well.

Fair call. I was getting my wires crossed. :angel:

Edited my previous post so that in the distant future, it doesn't add to any confusion. ;)

[101RRS]

Fair call. I was getting my wires crossed. :angel:

Edited my previous post so that in the distant future, it doesn't add to any confusion. ;)

You have been around long enough to know that we all jump on minor indiscretions with a vengeance :o :D

[Basil135]

You have been around long enough to know that we all jump on minor indiscretions with a vengeance :o :D

Oh, don't I know it... :p

But, I am man enough to own up to my indiscretions... [bawl]


Might just go & sit in the corner for a while, until Muppet gets here, and we can start on him.. :D

[sheerluck]

........Might just go & sit in the corner for a while, until Muppet gets here, and we can start on him.. :D

I second that. :D

[vs2]

For us with the 8 speed it would be nice to know if it in fact is the brake switch or the trans update that will fix the hesitation. I doubt it would be a combination of the two. Like Basil135 had both done and problem solved, but which one fixed the issue?

[CaverD3]

it would be nice to know if it in fact is the brake switch or the trans update that will fix the hesitation.

Err.. yes, I think is the answer. ;)

[vs2]

Err.. yes, I think is the answer. ;)

???

[CaverD3]

It could be either causing the issue, could be both but as you said unlikely.
Get dealer to change the switch and upgrade the software anyway.

[Basil135]

For us with the 8 speed it would be nice to know if it in fact is the brake switch or the trans update that will fix the hesitation. I doubt it would be a combination of the two. Like Basil135 had both done and problem solved, but which one fixed the issue?

With the dealer doing both at once, you are correct in saying it is hard to know which fix did the trick.

However, I would think that the software is the more likely problem solver. In saying that, by adjusting the brake light switch, I presume that then makes the lights come on, and hence the car knowing something is happening, either earlier or later. We would only be talking milliseconds here, but it could be enough.

So, at the end of it, MAYBE the fix IS a combination of the two. Adjust the point that the car finds out you want to brake, and then have the transmission do its stuff a little quicker.

[vs2]

Thanks. It has only happened to me once. If it was the trans then it should keep happening. Maybe my brake switch 'sorted itself out'? I have my 1st service due in July so I'll get the brake switch done only as I'm happy with the way the trans works as it is.

[mijango]

How much does the dealer change for :
A) transmission software update
B) brake light switch change?

[Basil135]

How much does the dealer change for :
A) transmission software update
B) brake light switch change?


I had mine done under warranty, so it didn't cost me anything. The servicing dealer was helpful, and did his own research with the info I provided.

Give yours a call, and if not under warranty, they should be able to give you a price. I would suggest that it would only be an hour or so of labour time.

[Basil135]

Well, nearly 6 months on, and a quick follow up.

I am happy to report that the fix described above seems to have done the trick.

I no longer have the amount of hesitation that I did before. To say that it is gone totally would be an overstatement, but it certainly is heaps better than when I first posted.

So, it would appear that this is a long term fix, and the car hasn't reset anything to make it go back to the way it was.

:D

[Armitage_Shanks]

I can also confirm the fix, Basil.
I had the software update mentioned in Service Bulletin LS307-003 and LTB00101 applied to my '06 RRS in April. The transmission pause then corresponding shunt is completely gone.
There is still a very slight hesitation in remaining in the system due to the inherent nature of fly-by-wire throttle control. But you wouldn't notice it unless you were looking for it.

[winaje]

I can also confirm the fix, Basil.
I had the software update mentioned in Service Bulletin LS307-003 and LTB00101 applied to my '06 RRS in April. The transmission pause then corresponding shunt is completely gone.
There is still a very slight hesitation in remaining in the system due to the inherent nature of fly-by-wire throttle control. But you wouldn't notice it unless you were looking for it.

As you're just up the road from me, can you please advise where you had the work done, and at what cost?

Thanks

[Armitage_Shanks]

Hey Will.
Yes, well. I get my RRS serviced at MLR in Port Melbourne because it's close to work. And the other thing is that, since I've got my car on a Novated Lease, all the service items listed in the invoice are displayed as "No Charge".
All I can tell you is that the invoice included 2 hours of labour for the software update.
Budget for $100 per hour labour.

[101RRS]

All I can tell you is that the invoice included 2 hours of labour for the software update.
Budget for $100 per hour labour.

Interesting - while the software update may take 2 hours the actual labour involved is connecting up - starting the update and two hours later disconnecting everything and then maybe testing the air compressor to see if it throws up faults - so realistically only 15 min - 30 min labour all up.

Garry