Alternator failure without warning - can it be anything else?

[MelbD3]

Without any warning my 2005 TDV6 would not start. The call out road-side mechanic said the battery was flat and suspected the alternator was faulty. Strangely, there has been no dash-board warning light indicating that the alternator is not charging. Today another mechanic has confirmed the alternator is not charging.

I have a Traxide dual battery system fitted (did not check whether the second battery was flat).

Car has driven just 97,000 km

Here are my questions:

1 Does it seem strange to have an alternator fail without the charging warning light illuminating first while driving?

2 Could it be anything else that controls the alternator that could cause this? I know in the D1 if the dashboard charging warning light-globe fails the charging circuit does not work ... does the D3 have a similar quirk?

3 My car has now driven 97,000 km ... have others had alternator failures at such a low distance?

4 Are there any traps that might make the alternator seem to be the problem, when in fact it is some other matter? Last century, when I was just a lad, my VW beetle had a problem that the regulator would play up and cause charging problems. These were fixed by tapping the regulator!! Any such tricks with the D3?

Any suggestions much appreciated.

[Rockylizard]

-SNIP-

Here are my questions:

- SNIP -

3 My car has now driven 97,000 km ... have others had alternator failures at such a low distance?

- SNIP -

Any suggestions much appreciated.

Gday...

The alternator died (and the 'sensor'? or something like that) on my 2006 D3 at 88,000km.

Dealer indicated alternator's in D3s have been a bit like a light globes - will last 10 secs or 10 years.

Thankfully I did get the in-dash indicator regarding 'not charging'.

New (exchange) alternator and 'sensor' installed and so far no further problems.

Cheers
John

[Mully]

Hiya Melb... my '05 D3 alternator carked it at about 145 thou but the warning light did have bursts to indicate things were dying... about an $800 job by the repair mob for a low k one from a D4. Not cheap for an alternator alas.

The lack of warning is curious in your case... perhaps sudden failure but it sure seems a bit harsh. The D3 is a power hungry beast so the alternator has to cope with a lot but I'd have to wonder at the cause of your failure. Sounds like the car was just dead? No dash lights etc? Have to wonder where the little power that should have been in the battery has drained to (if this was the case).

Hope it works out.

[MelbD3]

Without any warning my 2005 TDV6 would not start. The call out road-side mechanic said the battery was flat and suspected the alternator was faulty. Strangely, there has been no dash-board warning light indicating that the alternator is not charging. Today another mechanic has confirmed the alternator is not charging.

I have a Traxide dual battery system fitted (did not check whether the second battery was flat).

Car has driven just 97,000 km

Here are my questions:

1 Does it seem strange to have an alternator fail without the charging warning light illuminating first while driving?

2 Could it be anything else that controls the alternator that could cause this? I know in the D1 if the dashboard charging warning light-globe fails the charging circuit does not work ... does the D3 have a similar quirk?

3 My car has now driven 97,000 km ... have others had alternator failures at such a low distance?

4 Are there any traps that might make the alternator seem to be the problem, when in fact it is some other matter? Last century, when I was just a lad, my VW beetle had a problem that the regulator would play up and cause charging problems. These were fixed by tapping the regulator!! Any such tricks with the D3?

Any suggestions much appreciated.


..... I have been reading other posts on the AULRO website - the discussion about leaking voltage mentions a broken engine to body earth strap. Could this cause a failure of the alternator to charge without there being any dash-board warning light?

[oldsalt]

From my reading about this problem it seems that if your battery gets a bit "low" - or has been in the vehicle for too many years (how long is a matter of debate) it can fail and take the alternator with it !!!
I've recently had a brand new battery fitted in my 2007 TDV6 - the workshop I used did mention the "old battery - dead alternator" syndrome to me so it seemed like a small price to pay for peace of mind - not to mention avoiding a long walk home if it failed in the back of beyond !!!
If you search DISCO3 - UK you will find much discussion about this subject.
cheers

[PAT303]

Trouble with that is vehicles have been driving around for decades with dual battery systems wired up with solenoids and haven't had sudden alternator failure.I've had to change alternators on brand new vehicles that have never had anything run off them and at the same time seen 30 year old Kingswoods with the original still going strong.Alternators fail for lots of reasons as do batteries,thats life. Pat

[Wilbur]

Trouble with that is vehicles have been driving around for decades with dual battery systems wired up with solenoids and haven't had sudden alternator failure.I've had to change alternators on brand new vehicles that have never had anything run off them and at the same time seen 30 year old Kingswoods with the original still going strong.Alternators fail for lots of reasons as do batteries,thats life. Pat

True Pat, but times have changed. Todays batteries can draw much larger currents than older types did, hence they can place a much greater load on the alternator. Like most things, alternators last longer if they are not used to their maximum.

Also, unlike the case with Kingswoods, failure of an alternator in a modern electronic vehicle can be catastrophic as Drivesafe has shown.

[drivesafe]

Hi MelbD3, it seems that alternator failures are a bit of a common problem on the D3s.

I’ve been following a few threads on UKD3 and there have been a few failures, some with relatively low mileage.

Not sure what the problem is but it is looking like the brand of alternator being used by LR on the D3s is possibly not all that reliable.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Does anyone know if they changed suppliers over the D3 life cycle?

[drivesafe]

Hi Pedro, I don’t know but they do seem to be having an inordinate number of alternator failure on D3s, here, in Europe and in the USA and contrary to wilbur’s B/S, most don’t appear to have dual battery systems fitted, mine or any other brand.

This is like the injector failures on the D4’s where LRA was trying to blame the dual battery systems for causing the failures but like wilbur’s B/S, there are just as many D4’s having the same problem but don’t have any form of DBS fitted.

In the case of the injector failures, it is becoming more and more apparent that the problem is a software glitch, not an actual mechanical fault.

One thing that is obvious, an alternator for an LR3 is a fraction of the cost for one here.

[drivesafe]

BTW MelbD3, another point of interest for you, at least half of those alternator failures I have been following, the failure happened without the dash light ever coming on.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I'm going to do a Pedro here and induce a relative question. ;)

Has anyone actually investigated what the failure is, eg regulator, brushes, armature etc??

What if any, steps can be taken to repair these with the large selection of OEM suppliers these days?

It's not always impossible to source components unless there's an OEM production agreement. The D3 is coming up to a tenure date meaning some OEM agreements will possibly be coming to an end and the aftermarket OEM parts will be made available.

Andrew

[PAT303]

It's like the MM alternator on the Tdi,all of them would fail within a year or two from rear bearing failure.A well known problem. Pat

[drivesafe]

It's not always impossible to source components unless there's an OEM production agreement. The D3 is coming up to a tenure date meaning some OEM agreements will possibly be coming to an end and the aftermarket OEM parts will be made available.

Andrew

Hi Andrew, as earlier in this thread, the LR3 none genuine alternators are cheap in the States. I think one of the forums posted something like $208 for a new alternator.

I did my transmission in on my 02 RR. It was $7.5k for a reconditioned one here, or $1.5k for the same one in the USA.

BTW, when they replaced the transmission, they told me it was my dual battery system that had stuffed the transmission. :angel:

[MelbD3]

My D3 now has a new alternator and all, apparently, is well. I will provide a final follow-up when I get to examine the old alternator and see how the car travels over the next couple of weeks.

So in summary, it seems a 2005 D3 TDV6 with just 97k km, can have sudden alternator failure without warning. No dashboard warning lights. The only clue to failure was that for a part of the day immediately before the car would not start the car would not alter height (apparently this is a power-saving feature).

Thank you to everyone who provided insights.

[drivesafe]

Hi MelbD3, glad to hear all is now fixed and if you find out what cause your alternator failure, I think it would of much interest to quite a few of us.

BTW, if it not a personal question, what was the final damage to your pocket?

[Peter]

Alternator Failure is serious.

Today that little light red light cost me over $1000.

Advice - If your Alternator light comes on get the Alternator checked out that day.

A new alternator costs a bit over $700 and it has an uncommon and known fault according to the Auto Electrician.

If not fixed, there is no fuse to stop the current so the battery is shorted out and drained completely and so you (well me in this case) are up for a new battery as well.

I had mine checked by a battery shop on Saturday, determined it was the alternator, called on Monday to book it in on for Tuesday and by Monday night was driving home a car in cripple mode while everything shut down to protect the battery.

By the time I isolated the short and disconnected the battery it was goodnight to the originally fitted 6.5 year old battery. Shame as I was quite impressed with this bit of the kit.

Perhaps this might be worth a line item in the FAQ section... up to you.

So now it is all fixed and hoping they have addressed the fault in the new replacement.

The Auto Electrician suggested it is the same in RRS and D3 models as they share the same power systems but he wouldn't elaborate models and dates beyond V8 diesels and 2.7 diesels.

My D3 has only today clocked over 130000 km so I consider it too young for this particular organ transplant. Having just done the lower control arms and ball joints my wallet thought the same.

Hope this helps someone else avoid the same experience and at least save a new battery.

Cheers PK

[Graeme]

Was the auto electrician keeping trade secrets or did he decide that you wouldn't understand the precise nature of the problem?

[Tote]

My 2008 D3 had an alternator failure at around 20,000KM I did get a light on but it was still charging. Replaced under warranty, there is usually a pile of alternators along with the pile of spare tyre winches and compressors at the back of the ACT dealer.

Regards,
Tote

[Peter]

Will ask tomorrow if there was any analytics done post extraction. Seems like a significant failure to be able to short out the battery and discharge it so quickly.

[Graeme]

It might not have been the same failure as Drivesafe's because his alternator was repaired.

[drivesafe]

It might not have been the same failure as Drivesafe's because his alternator was repaired.

And I think you will find these days many auto electricians either can’t be bothered to repair an alternator or just don’t know how to repair one and opt for the easy ( expensive for the customer ) way out.

[Peter]

I spoke to Shane at SBL Automotive Thursday morning and he is going to ask the Auto Electrician to pick up the dead alternator and strip it down. *He has a agreed to call me back and let me know the results.

He has a personal interest as he has a RRS TDV6 due in with the same problem and is keen to know that he is curing the problem permanently or just the symptom.

Shane is also a bit concerned that there was no fusible link or other protection in the system triggered by this component failure.

To add to the suggestion that component replacement was perhaps the easy option can I suggest that historically I have reconditioned alternators and even purchased second hand. In this case, there were two auto electricians look at the vehicle one pre catastrophic failure and one post and they both expressed a kind of fear when dealing with computerized regulators attached to the CPU etc.

This is not to suggest the problem couldn't be solved by a recondition or within the skill set, just to indicate that from my small sample of the industry, that the technology foundation of today's machines (D3 and other makes) is perhaps beyond the traditional auto electricians comfort zone (not skill). *Perhaps the cost of stuffing a CPU produces a fear factor??? Not sure and you guys would know better.

Not trying to take anything away from the skills in this trade. More suggesting LR and other vendors have successfully pursued a component replacement strategy for some time and perhaps bit by bit dumbing down the consumers repair expectations and understanding. *Or perhaps it's just me reacting to the sea of black every time I open the bonnet which is followed by a feeling of disempowerment.

My personal distrust in a "component replacement" strategy is the reason I joined this forum. *i.e. How many Alternators do you replace before you find the actual problem?

Anyway my thoughts only and let you know when Shane gets back to me.

Cheers PK

[Graeme]

And I think you will find these days many auto electricians either can’t be bothered to repair an alternator or just don’t know how to repair one and opt for the easy ( expensive for the customer ) way out.
A replacement alternator might be quicker to procure than parts for a specific alternator. Also, diagnosing a failed alternator then ordering a new one before starting the job means less total work time on that vehicle, being able to do all the work in 1 session.

[Graeme]

In this case, there were two auto electricians look at the vehicle one pre catastrophic failure and one post and they both expressed a kind of fear when dealing with computerized regulators attached to the CPU etc.
The computerised regulator is 1 wire from the ecu to the alternator on which an ecu-generated pwm (pulse width modulated) signal is carried. The ecu varies the duty cycle of the pwm signal to indicate to the alternator what percentage of the full output is required.

The ecu determines how much output it wants from the alternator after considering various factors, including minimising engine load under various operating conditions in order to achieve such outcomes as sufficiently low emisisons at idle and lower overall fuel consumption.

[drivesafe]

A replacement alternator might be quicker to procure than parts for a specific alternator. Also, diagnosing a failed alternator then ordering a new one before starting the job means less total work time on that vehicle, being able to do all the work in 1 session.

Hi Graeme and while there are still a few, NOTE very few, auto electricians who are more then just Plug-N-Play experts, but I was a partner in an auto electrical business in Sydney some 25 years ago and I can assure you the average auto elec today knows far less about this business then was required back then.

More specific to this thread, there appears to by an unusually high rate of D3 alternator failures and just replacing one faulty alternator with what may be a potentially equally faulty one, while good for the auto elecs pocket, it’s not good for the customer.

As above and based on personal experience, most auto electricians these days are no more then Plug-N-Play experts and in this case, having an alternator pulled down and inspected, might be a far more prudent move for the customer than just replacing a faulty one without discovering what caused the problem in the first place.

Auto elecs today seem knowledge challenged if they need to do anything more than replace a faulty product or wire up a set of driving lights.

I am so feed up with having to rewire vehicles for customers who, thinking they were doing the right thing, had gone to an auto elec to get a dual battery system fitted only to find the first time they use their new system, IT DON'T WORK.

And it’s not just a case of some inconvenience caused by professional ignorance but it’s getting to the stage where these cowboys are fitting some bloody dangerous set ups.

I have just rewired a D3 after a fire in the engine bay, which was caused by any one of three different “PROFESSIONAL” installations, starting with the auto elecs use of grossly under sized cable, to the caravan manufacturer’s same grossly undersized cable use, to the maker of the lead used to join the vehicle’s battery and fridge power supply to the van.

Both the auto elec and the van manufacturer had use 6mm auto ( 4.5mm2 ) for a separate battery positive and fridge positive and a single 6mm auto for the common earth return.

But this pales in significance when you see that the lead for connecting between the D3 and van has 1.5mm electrical flex for each of the same three wires.

While this off the point it shows that so called professionals don’t have a clew and in this case, of the “faulty” D3 alternators, the problem is not restricted to Australia, the yanks and pomes are having the same problems with their D3s.

PS Thank you to the moderator for cleaning up my crap, posted earlier in this thread.

[MelbD3]

The apparently faulty alternator (on my 2005 TDV6) has been replaced and the car has now driven a further ~ 3,000 km.

I have not yet had an opportunity to have the original alternator examined (and rebuilt to have as a spare). To whom could I entrust this (in Melbourne)?

[drivesafe]

Hi MelbD3, ring around and find an auto electrician who rebuilds alternators in-house, not the usual recondition swap.

Not too many still rebuild but you might be lucky. You will not only get a spare but should also find out first hand what was the problem.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The apparently faulty alternator (on my 2005 TDV6) has been replaced and the car has now driven a further ~ 3,000 km.

I have not yet had an opportunity to have the original alternator examined (and rebuilt to have as a spare). To whom could I entrust this (in Melbourne)?


Hi MelbD3, ring around and find an auto electrician who rebuilds alternators in-house, not the usual recondition swap.

Not too many still rebuild but you might be lucky. You will not only get a spare but should also find out first hand what was the problem.


and then let us know;):D

[Peter]

Some news about the Alternator Failure.

I received a call from Shane at SBL Automotive (the owner) and his Auto Electrician buddy has reported back.

The Alternator is a 150Amp beastie and the internals include a number of Diodes (rectifying bridge perhaps). The Diode(s) have "failed" and shorted out.

Also his advice includes that there are no aftermarket replacement bits from his suppliers.... yet.

So this seems to explain the failure and short. And it also means there is no certainty that the issue is resolved long term.

Hope this helps progress the collective understanding.

My own thoughts are that the Alternator's main bits are still serviceable and it is potentially still capable of pumping out 150amps for many years if there was a fix. Considering the replacement unit was ~$700 from LR there would have to be a bit of room for a smart young fella on this forum to nut out a solution.

Finally, I will take a moment to thank Shane for being engaged enough to follow up this for me... but then he is not a member of this forum :).

If you reply, let me know if there is a way of inviting someone to be a member. I have a couple of contacts including Shane who would benefit or add value if they got a e-nudge. Apologies, I can't seem to nut this bit out.

Cheers PK

[Graeme]

There are 6 high-current diodes that are used to convert 3 AC phases to DC. It sounds as though the manufacturer has used diodes that are under-rated for the power that can be produced and thus fail prematurely, albeit outside the warranty period.

[Geedublya]

I often see rectifier diodes and complete bridge rectifiers fail when used near but not exceeding their upper current limit. It seems that even when they are specced within their limits they still fail.
When I replace them I always replace them with something with a much higher rating if physically possible.
It may be that heat is a contributing factor that was not considered when specifying the components.

[outasight]

I'm with you on the heat aspect.

Regards,

Les.

[MelbD3]

I have now clarified the situation.

The car (TDV6 SE) was in the Kimberly. There was a day trip that had 40 creek crossings in 60 km - hence 80 raisings of the car to offroad height in a day. The following day the car was no-longer changing height - was in the normal height position. It was driven for some hours. Some time later the alternator light was noted to be ON. Late in the afternoon, after parking the car for some hours, the engine would not turn over, but doors still unlocked with the remote control. No other tests were done (eg not clear whether lights still worked). Subsequently the alternator was diagnosed as defective. New alternator was fitted and the car driven back to Melbourne without incident.

The alternator has now been checked and, indeed, shown to not be charging. The alternator was not dismantled, so the exact cause of the failure is not known, but it spins freely, there is no play in the axle, and there is no external evidence of overheating or melting.

One possible scenario is that the large number of height changes resulted in the alternator needing to produce high current for a long time and this resulted in overheating and failure of an electrical component.

An alternative explanation is that the alternator simply failed at ~ 95,000 km. From conversations with various D3 mechanics it seems alternator failure is not a rare event in relatively low km vehicles.

I will keep the alternator in the hope that after market parts kits become available that would enable servicing of it.

The Discovery is now being serviced. If any additional information becomes available I will post this.

[bbyer]

The car (TDV6 SE) was in the Kimberly. There was a day trip that had 40 creek crossings in 60 km - hence 80 raising's of the car to offroad height in a day. I have noted that for you guys, something like above is for the most part, just another routine day trip so the kids can visit Grandma and Grandpa.

I doubt Land Rover has ever considered testing their machines to the extremes that you routinely drive.

I tend to think that Sandringham Estate which I presume Land Rover considers the norm for their products, is just not typical of your daily reality.

I continue to be surprised with what in Oz is routinely considered just another days outing.

[drivesafe]

Hi MelbD3, I suspect the failure is down to a poor quality alternator as this is becoming an all to common event with D3s all over the world.

There seems to be an abnormally high failure rate and it makes no difference whether the D3 has been doing the Dakar every week or nothing more than the school run everyday, the alternators are just failing.

In your case, the compressor would only be working for a short period of time each time you did one of your river crossings and someone towing a caravan at night, running a few driving lights and charging a few low batteries would easily be pulling CONSTANT currents more than double the compressor requirements for long periods of time and don't have probles, so load is not the direct factor, although it may a contributing factor.

Hi bbyer, you seem to be in a better position than us as you have access to after market alternators at much lower prices and the reason I know this is from a number of USA D3 owners who have posted up how they fixed their alternators after failures.

So the problem is a bit too common just to be coincidence events.

[bbyer]

Hi bbyer, you seem to be in a better position than us as you have access to after market alternators at much lower prices and the reason I know this is from a number of USA D3 owners who have posted up how they fixed their alternators after failures.

So the problem is a bit too common just to be coincidence events.

I would say that there is a lot of selection on eBay USA, but at least here in Canada, say over the counter at a local auto parts store, you get a blank stare, something about not in the computer, and go see the dealer.

Below are links to some eBay USA sources. Rebuilt units are also available from the various USA based Land Rover parts by mail, speciality houses for anywhere from $US 250.00 to $450.00 each - yes, better than Oz.

This claims to be OEM rebuilt $US 240.00

GENUINE OEM DENSO ALTERNATOR LAND ROVER LR3 RANGE ROVER | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GENUINE-OEM-DENSO-ALTERNATOR-LAND-ROVER-LR3-RANGE-ROVER-/300592065162?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45fcaeea8a)

This is probably rebuilt and close to OEM but is I think an English rebuild, ALL MAKES ENGLAND; price about $US 450.00
LAND ROVER ALTERNATOR RR LR3 RR SPORT V8 4.4L 4.2L | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LAND-ROVER-ALTERNATOR-RR-LR3-RR-SPORT-V8-4-4L-4-2L-/160610981197?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ALand+Rover%7CModel%3ALR3&hash=item256529154d)

This one is clearly after market; about $US 270.00
BECK ARNLEY 186-1268 Alternator/Generator | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BECK-ARNLEY-186-1268-Alternator-Generator-/200629677597?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ALand+Rover%7CModel%3ALR3&hash=item2eb675ee1d)

Another rebuilder unit; about $US 280.00
USA INDUSTRIES A3205 Alternator/Generator | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/USA-INDUSTRIES-A3205-Alternator-Generator-/170662900150?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ALand+Rover%7CModel%3ALR3&hash=item27bc4d31b6)

This listing for an MPA rebuilt is interesting in that the price is about $US 202.00 and includes the core price of $US 106.00
MPA 15703 Alternator/Generator | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MPA-15703-Alternator-Generator-/170673121090?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ALand+Rover%7CModel%3ALR3&hash=item27bce92742)

My feeling is that the Land Rover 150 amp alternator is just a bit undersized for the vehicle. In theory it should be OK, but in practice no. This reminds me of an Oldsmobile my sister had a few years back. The Delco alternator would quit about every two years. Finally our mechanic decided to install the next larger sized alternator that was speced for the higher class models and was rated 50 amps higher. After that, no more alternator failures. It is too bad that there does not seem to be say a 200 amp model of the our alternator available. A larger rated unit would rarely ever have to put out at the increased rate, however in normal operation, it may not be working anywhere near practical limits. Somehow I think fuel efficiency concerns have affected what is speced as OK and the alternator rating relies on the load shedding computers to protect the alternator - and that in practice, it does not sufficiently protect.

[drivesafe]

Hi again bbyer, and this may be the reason LR have fitted the D4 with a 180 amp alternator

[bbyer]

Twenty percent larger alternator, now that I find interesting.

I don't suppose the LR4 alternator is available as an upgrade for a the diesel D3, let alone a gasoline V8 LR3? If not a Land Rover unit, then I suppose something else that Denso or other makes. To date, I have not seen anything with the proper case profile and attachment locations.

Sometimes one cannot properly put a larger alternator in as the wiring or fuse sizes are too small in the chance situation where the larger alternator puts out full rated amps.

I had the possibility of that situation in my Beechcraft low wing, (Lycoming O-320), which has a 40 amp alternator running thru a 50 amp main breaker. I wanted to put a 60 amp alternator on, but ignoring paper work problems, in practice it just would not be safe; hence LED landing lights and the like.

Re the 3, I expect the loading shedding systems would just assume the alternator was not capable of more than 150 amps and hence limit the output of anything larger; hence wiring and fuse size would not be a problem.

A 180 amp or similar alternator just may be the solution to improved life. I have always felt that in automotive, 10% bigger was the difference between standard and heavy duty; hence 20% should yield a real improvement in alternator life, or at least shift the failure mode from the electronics to the bearings.

If so, I would think that you Australians are the ones to solve that. It was you blokes that came up with the metal oil pan mod for the ZF 6HP26X automatic transmission; now is perhaps the time for the alternator.

[drivesafe]

Hi bbyer, the D4 also comes with 35mm2 cable between the alternator, starter motor and cranking battery.

35mm2 cable has a 195 amp continuous rating so Land Rover have set the D4 up so you can get that sort of power out of your alternator.

[bbyer]

I do not understand metric wire gauges but I understand that stranded wire numbering is different from solid wire. Since the D4 cable is as you say, 35 square millimetres for the D4 battery to alternator cable, do you know what the cable area is for the D3? From the Land Rover wiring diagrams I have, LR calls up R,50.0 where R is the red colour insulation but what 50.0 means, I do not know.

I did find an Anderson produced chart, attached, for wire gauge, but I assume it is for solid wire, rather than stranded. One would think that probably the D4 wire should be a bit heavier than the D3 wire but it may be that a few extra amps does not really matter.

Also below is a link to a site that sells an add on box that effectively increases the number of diodes an alternator has available from the usual six by adding twelve more for a total of 18 diodes. I do not regard the mod as practical for our 3, but for industrial equipment, it makes sense.

In other words, per Graeme above, if we could find heavier diodes for our existing alternator, that would probably help to extend the life of the alternator - that, or perhaps the D4 alternator fits both electrically and physically?

Quicktifier Remote Rectifier makes your Alternator Tougher (http://www.alternatorparts.com/quicktifier-remote-bridge-rectifier.html)

[Graeme]

Hi again bbyer, and this may be the reason LR have fitted the D4 with a 180 amp alternator
Is the D4 3.0 alternator the same as the D4 2.7?

Are the D4 alternators made by the same manufacturer as the D3?

[bbyer]

Finding data on the D4 alternator is difficult as all D4's are still on factory warranty, hence there is no aftermarket yet. As to manufacturer, all I know is that Denso did the units for the 3's.

I have a partial LR parts file for the D3/LR3 so I can find some parts numbers and then cross reference some of them.

It appears that the D3/LR3 alternator for the petrol V6, (LR008862), is different than for the petrol V8, (LR008860), but I do not know for certain about the diesel 3's other than for the 2.7TDV6 which is LR008861. As to the D4's that is really a black hole.

It reminds me of when I first got my LR3 - like it was designed off planet - just no data available other than on Disco3 and AULRO.

What I have been looking to find is a 180 or 200 amp version of the Denso part numbers 4280003690 or 4280003691 which are I think cross for the Land Rover YLE500190 or newer part number YLE500390 or LR008860 which is what LR calls a service exchange unit - rebuilt I suppose.

I cannot imagine that our alternator is so unique that something similar is not sitting on some Lexus, BMW, or Jag.

I can see that the mounting setup may be different, but inside, the parts must be similar to some other alternator. Also 150 amps, while not small, is far from being what would be considered a large alternator.

If there is anything that may be unique about our alternator, it is how it interfaces with the Engine Control Module and that Pulse Width Modulated signal that controls the amp output of the alternator. As such, some sort of straight across swap because a unit physically fits may not be the best idea.

DENSO Automotive OEM Products (http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/a/sc_alternator.html)

[~Rich~]

I've been in contact with my LR Specialist mechanic, he will be emailing me diagrams of the 2 D4 alternators.
The 2.7TDV6 has a part # LR008043 which is a 140amp model, why the part number has changed who knows!
The 3.0 SDV6 has a part # LR013847 which he is investigating the amp out for. They appear to have similar mount points but without putting them side by side it is just guessing if it fit.
I'll post the diagrams when I receive them.

[bbyer]

I tired a Google search on your D4 part numbers, and they are definitely D4 unique numbers, as nothing comes up on the search.

Not to anyones surprise, there is also no rebuilt cross reference as these alternators are too new.

Well done; now I wonder if the alternator internal voltage regulators talk a different language to the Engine Control Unit than they did on the D3 and hence the different part number?

Hopefully it is just that the alternator puts out a bit more amps. I had the feeling that some of the alternators for the smaller engine D3's were rated at 85 amps. I never did figure out what the petrol V6 was either.

[Graeme]

The car (TDV6 SE) was in the Kimberly. There was a day trip that had 40 creek crossings in 60 km - hence 80 raisings of the car to offroad height in a day.
If you haven't done so already, for the compressor's sake you might like to consider one of the methods available to keep the vehicle at off-road height in these conditions, perhaps avoiding the possibility of not being able to raise it when required.

[~Rich~]

Ok here are the images & part # for the 2.7TDV6 D3 & D4, as well as the 3.0SDV6 part # only unfortunately.
The mounts are different, while the D4 ones may in fact be interchangable. The D3 & D4 Alternators would have to be compared side by side.
No information on Amp outputs available.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/09/391.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/09/392.jpg

[drivesafe]

I have not touched an alternator since I pulled one of my D2, how hard is it to access and remove the alternators on D3s and D4s.

The TDV8 RR is an absolute nightmare to work on but the supercharge is comparatively easy to work on.

[bbyer]

Assuming one is not outside in a -30C snow storm, replacing the LR3 alternator is doable. I say that as I did an alternator change on my Buick Roadmaster, (GM 350), one winter day in about 15 minutes. Needless to say, the LR3 is no Roadmaster.

One pretty much has to remove the alternator from the bottom but to get to the 3 bolts, the drive belts have to be removed and this has to be done from the top.

As such the hard part in my mind is removing the drive belt - actually two of them as the alternator belt is the inside one and to get at it, one has to remove some of the radiator shielding and then fuss with a "triangle" of three bolts on the fan shaft to remove the fan.

A KD Tools #3900 pulley holder will work to hold the pulley bolts while one reverse rotates the Ford fan off with a 36mm open end fan clutch shaft wrench.

My thinking is that once you have spent a day learning how the first time, probably 3 hours in nice weather and not under any pressure should do the job.

I think the turbo diesels are more difficult due to less space.

I am starting to believe that heat is the problem re the short life of the alternators. Here in Western Canada, alternator failure is relatively rare, however in Eastern Canada, common. Here in the West, there are maybe only 60 days a year where one may wish to use the AC; down east it is double that and for Australia, probably closer to 250 days a year.

Also I presume the turbo diesels run hotter under the bonnet than the non turbo charged petrol vehicles.

It would be interesting to know just what fails. I figure it is either the diodes in the rectifier or the voltage regulator thing that the PWM signals feed into. My guess is that it is the rectifier that fails due to heat exaustion and that a heavier version would solve alot of problems.

Other than that D4 alternator rated at 185 amps, so far, the largest Denso SC2 alternator that I have seen is 160 amps and that is in Jeep and Dodge Minivan products as well as some Chev Cobalts. I think the upgrade parts are out there, the trick is to find them.

I suspect that the voltage regulator is unique to the 3 and hence upgrade versions of it are not available; hence my desire to hope the failure mode is with the diodes as I suspect rectifiers, while unique to a particular alternator design, are not unique to any particular vehicle.

The alternators for the 3 appear to be what Denso calls an SC2 design.

[Tote]

I replaced the alternator on my D3 tonight. It failed on Friday morning with no charge light coming on, I backed the vehicle out and went inside for a couple of minutes, when I left it stalled in the driveway and would not start.
To get it back to the shed I jumpered the second battery positive across to the main and drove it. I disconnected the battery and put it on the charger.
There was a burning smell coming from the general direction of the alternator and when I connected the battery it seemed to be drawing more current than the usual small spark you get on reconnection.
This afternoon I took some comparative readings with the multimeter between the two alternators. Most terminals were similar readings with around 600 ohms in one direction and open circuit with the polarity reversed except for the output terminal on the faulty alternator which was short circuit in both directions. I guess this explains the current draw and the burning smell......

Regards,
Tote

[justinc]

just replaced one recently, 2005 140k d3 tdv6. smokin' rectifier, pulled it down to discover blown diodes etc etc. bit of a mess:(. alternator lamp was on. no repair parts avail from auto elec so new one went in.

jc

[Presto]

HI All,

Thanks for your posts and valuable information.
I now find myself in a similar position, but with a possible twist. I have a very new battery on my 2007 TDV6, which continues to start the motor without any issues, but the battery light has been on for 2 days now. The twist is that the charging system seems to be working fine, reading 13.5v with the motor running? However, the light is clearly showing a fault with the charging system!! :(

Any ideas??

[Graeme]

Check the voltage at idle with all the lights on as I suspect there's 1 open circuit diode that will cause the alternator to not be able to keep up the voltage with more load.

[Presto]

Thanks Graeme,

All lights on including full beam = 13.48v
All accessories (radio, DVD player) = 13.46v

I also have a Traxide DBS installed, so all these figures are with this connected. I tried disconnecting the feed to the second battery expecting at least some change in the volts, but still 13.5v!!??

Puzzling!?

[Graeme]

Does your vehicle have a load sensor attached to the negative battery terminal? If so there may be a problem with that device. There could also be a problem with the regulator circuit that operates the light as the light is just a crude indication to the driver that the alternator is charging or not. I would not let it go for too long lest the battery isn't receiving full charge.

[Tinman]

Hi Guys I have just come back from a trip to South Australia on the second last day travelling home in my D3 tdv6 the battery light came on I looked for a spot to pull over which took a few minutes when I braked to slow down the light went out. Couldnt find anything wrong the same thing happened the next day where it stayed on for 5 minutes then went out again. Since being home for 2 weeks I have checked the battery volts first thing in the morning showing 12.5v before starting then starting with lights on it charges at 14.8v after driving it for about 10 minutes the chargeing drops to 13.4v to 13.6v. Havent had the battery light come on for two weeks. My first alternator packed it in after 155,000klms this one is 11months old. Have got it booked in today before the warrenty runs out on it to see if they can find anything. Seems abit high at 14.8v first thing any thoughts

[Graeme]

Nothing wrong with 14.8V soon after it starts charging especially in cool weather.

[Tinman]

Thanks Graeme, Everyother time I have checked in the past its always been around the 13.4vmark. It is with the repairer at the moment. Wanted them to see the battery fault logged so if they cant find anything at the moment at least the fault has been shown while in the 12 month warranty period.

[Tinman]

Hi Guys, Called repairer and he told me they are replaceing my 10 1/2 month old alternator with a new one. Hope all goes well as I am going away for the long weekend at the end of the week

[coolum]

I have just had a very well respected landrover workshop on the sunshine coast have a look at my D3 for a number of electrical problems.
One of which is a battery light which has been on for 3-4 months continuously.

They checked the output from the alternator and said it was charging fine. They also found that there is no problem with the light on the dash (and corresponding electrics) and recommended the fault lies in the alternator.

As the alternator has been thundering along in relation to providing power to the battery to date, in both on and offroad conditions (raising and lowering frequently etc) how much of a risk am I running by using the vehicle in its present state. (silly moot question I guess - how long is a piece of string Eh?)

I don't usually skimp on preventative maintenance, but it seems that this could run for years in its current state and not cause any further concern than a warning light on. it could also leave me on the side of the road tomorrow according to this post.

Its my intention to source a Denso Alt from the states and get the blokes to fit it, but it seems like such a waste ... just another throw away - so different from 'the old days' when it was worth fixing everything .. 2 hours labour these days takes out a $250.00 purchase in a flash.

Does anyone have any further insight into the risk I am running in the meantime?

Regards
Steve

[Rich84]

IF you don't mind getting your hands dirty you can fit the alt yourself, it's not a hard job. And you'll save yourself that $250.

[Presto]

Hi Steve,

I was in a similar situation for the last 8 weeks, but the D3 ceased to function last week, with a very flat battery. When the battery light originally came on, I checked the alternator, which was pumping out 13.5v at idle and thought nothing more of it. Now there seems to be a short in the system. Luckily the battery, which is only 6 mths old, recovered with a good charge, and starts the car no problem, but there is now a constant load on the battery which shows 11v at all times when connected (even at idle), and 12.7v when I remove the earth terminal. I'm guessing the alternator is completely goosed now, and I'm very reluctant to drive it anywhere in it's current state.

As a result of my experience, I would suggest doing something before it leaves you high and dry.

Regards
Grant

[bbyer]

Walking is the risk as I see it and perhaps wet as in up the creek.

My view is that normal alternator testing techniques tend to show the alternator is OK because the testing techniques do not take into account the "smart regulator" built into the Denso alternator.

While LR and Denso call the regulator "smart", I call it dumb, as the regulator takes instructions rather than gives them. In the past, the regulator looked at the battery and decided how much power the alternator should produce.

In the case of these PWM, (Pulse Width Modulated), style regulators in our Denso alternators, the regulator takes its instructions from the engine computer, not the battery. Normal old style alternator testing techniques do not simulate the newer Engine Computer generated instruction sets.

In other words, the alternator is probably OK, however the internal regulator is sick, but diagnosing that takes special testing equipment not normally found even at a LR dealership.

There are some alternator related files at the bottom of the page re the link below.

Regardless of where you get your alternator, count the number of grooves in the pulley to make certain the new pulley is the same as the one you are taking out. You may have to swap pulleys - that is the old pulley on the new alternator.

DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - LR3 miscellaneous (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3801)

[Presto]

Thanks for that info bbyer!

Next question - Where to buy a new alternator from?

[Geedublya]

I bought mine from Karcraft in Sydney. $430.

[vbrab]

From intermittent noise in my alternator, I may have change it soon, (nearest service over 1600k's away)
Can anybody direct me to where I can find guide to removing and refitting alternator in D3 2.7.
Many thanks, vbrab

[vbrab]

From intermittent noise in my alternator, I may have change it soon, (nearest service over 1600k's away)
Can anybody direct me to where I can find guide to removing and refitting alternator in D3 2.7.
Many thanks, vbrab

[~Rich~]

http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic82516.html

There you go ;)
Rich

[Presto]

Much appreciated Rich, I spent an hour last night removing various plastic parts including the drivers side inner arch etc, which gave me no better access! :( :angel:

[Presto]

Quick update.......
Once I got the fan off, it was fairly easy to remove/replace the alternator. I also removed the 2 bolts holding the rigid pipe in the area to give me a little more room which helped.
The big news is, I found that the faulty alternator had a dead short which explains the load/drain on the battery!! :O

All good now with the new alternator in place! :)

[sheerluck]

Quick update.......
Once I got the fan off.....

If it was anything like my fan, Grant, you would have had great fun. I ended up cutting through the hub nut (where it attaches to the pulley) with a reciprocating saw :(

[Presto]

If it was anything like my fan, Grant, you would have had great fun. I ended up cutting through the hub nut (where it attaches to the pulley) with a reciprocating saw :(

Hi Dave,
If the fan was fitted properly, it shouldn't be too tight, so a 10mm spanner on one of the nuts rested against the fan nut (to prevent it undoing the 10mm) is usually enough to crack it. I've had to do this a few times now and each time I mean to measure up to get a special tool made, would make life so much easier!
Cheers
Grant

[sheerluck]

Hi Dave,
If the fan was fitted properly, it shouldn't be too tight, so a 10mm spanner on one of the nuts rested against the fan nut (to prevent it undoing the 10mm) is usually enough to crack it. I've had to do this a few times now and each time I mean to measure up to get a special tool made, would make life so much easier!
Cheers
Grant

I think mine was so awkward because the hub itself was slightly bent. I spent nearly a whole day trying to undo it. Even trying to shock it with a two pound hammer wouldn't do it, after heating with a torch.

It was only the heat and vibration from the saw that did it in the end. And then I found out how much a new one costs :eek:

[Graeme]

I found that the faulty alternator had a dead short Did you investigate where the short was and if so, was it one of the main rectifier diodes?

[Presto]

Hi Graeme,

I haven't investigated that far yet, as I had to get the car running asap, so quickly checked across battery terminal before throwing it in a box and fitting the new one.

I'll take a look as soon as I get some spare time and report back.

Cheers
Grant

[vbrab]

On D3 2.7 (trying to change alternator) Cannot find for certain whether the vicous coupling is a left or right hand thread. Hard enough to get undone without trying to make it tighter through going wrong way. Have seen various comments saying right and others left (may depend on LR models).
So can anybody tell me for certain which way I should be "persuading" it to get it off. Clockwise if LH thread?
Anybody know of any Australian suppliers for the tool to hold the pulley, while I encourage the coupling to detach?
OK, have found a definitie that says LEFT hand thread undo clockwise

[Presto]

Hey vbrab,
The link posted by Rich above suggested a left hand thread, and I used the procedure detailed there to remove mine. If you follow that procedure, it comes off easier than you would imagine.
Good luck!

[Presto]

Did you investigate where the short was and if so, was it one of the main rectifier diodes?

Hi Graeme,
Unfortunately, I caused a fair bit of damage trying to take it apart, and by the time I got into it, the short was gone :(
Without knowing what it should look like, there certainly seemed to be some melted connections which broke as I tried to dismantle it.
Now belongs in the bin!!

[Tote]

It seems that someone is now replacing the diodes in these alternators. Not sure I'd want a repaired one that had been potentially subjected to a short across it's windings though.

Landrover Discovery 3 Alternator | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Landrover-Discovery-3-Alternator-/261245582041?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cd3733ad9&_uhb=1)

Regards,
Tote

[Graeme]

Not sure I'd want a repaired one that had been potentially subjected to a short across it's windings though.
Good point - its not the same as diodes going open circuit or a failed regulator so the windings would need to be scrutinised.

[rb30gtr]

I just bought my a new alternator from Karcraft this morning. Not cheap, but John from Karcraft gives brilliant customer service!

Will be fitting it Saturday morning.

I couldn't even leave my D3 sitting with the new battery connected as it was being severely drained.

[PKD4]

Thanks all for this thread, it has been interesting reading.

I have tried to abbreiviate my story to the essentials, it is still long- sorry.

I have a 2.7TDV6 D4, 09/11 build and 33k on the clock; and last Friday the car failed to start. No warning lights on the dash until after failure to start - then the coil and a red flashing light.

It had been driven to Brisbane the previous weekend - a 850km round trip - with my very rudimentary knowledge I would have said that should be a fully charged battery.

The Landrover Assistance roadside help, jump started the car. This has happened twice since (we did do 100km on the highway in between to charge it). Wife stranded at work last night - not all that impressed with my choice of vehicle for our family:o. LRA replaced the battery last night.

In hindsight, the last month or so, there had been a growing delay between pushing the start button and actual starting, I thought it was just because it was colder. Perhaps an early sign of the battery going...?

Hopefully,the new battery fixes the problem. I have spoken to our local dealer who does not want to look at it because, 'if the warning light isn't flashing, then it can't be alternator it was just the battery.' From reading this thread - it may not be quite as simple as that, so

1) any other's with D4's had similar issues?
2) is under 2 yrs and only 30k a suspiciously short lifespan for a battery?

Thanks for any thoughts, sorry again for the long story.

Pat

[Plane Fixer]

Pat
Reading through some of the other threads on this same issue and using those symptoms as a guide, I would suggest the alternator is on the way out.
I cannot help you now as I will not be home until Saturday, else I would have put a meter over it for you.
Push our local dealer to do something similar as the car is still in warranty ??
If out of warranty, and you can source an alternator, I will do the change over for you next week.
Graeme

[PKD4]

Thanks Graeme,

It is still well and truly in warranty period, given their reluctance I might just have to wait until ther is another problem before I push for more.

Thanks for the offer to have a look for me. I will be in touch when you are back on the coast - hopefully it will still be starting.

Wait and see I guess.

Pat

[Graeme]

Lots of D4 batteries have been replaced, including mine. I fitted the latest Varta AGM which I understand is what LR is now fitting. 30K kms in nearly 2 years suggests that your battery doesn't get much of a chance of being fully charged all the time so that would hasten its demise.

[vbrab]

Have recently fitted new Varta to D3, having got nearly 5 years and 200K out of previous Varta/Land Rover battery. Would recommend staying with Varta as many other brands are made in SE Asia and often a bit short in claimed specifications and content....hence failures are high.

[discotwinturbo]

I have been charging my car batteries with a quality battery charger, and have not had to replace a battery. My last car battery was 7 years old a still going strong.

My Touareg battery is 5 years old and still in good shape, verified by a recent load test. My VW takes about 2-3 hours on a 5 amp charger to get back to full...the D4 more than 5 hours, probably due to the "smart" alternator which is not designed to look after batteries.

Only 2 deep cycle batteries that have failed for me, were from over charging due to too many amps going into the battery with my Piranha Isolator, once I switched away from this, no more problems.

An hour a month setting up my charger on ride on, buggy, quad, camper, and both cars is cheap....Not all subscribe to using this method but works for me.

Brett....

[PKD4]

Lots of D4 batteries have been replaced, including mine. I fitted the latest Varta AGM which I understand is what LR is now fitting. 30K kms in nearly 2 years suggests that your battery doesn't get much of a chance of being fully charged all the time so that would hasten its demise.

Graeme,

I suspect that you are quite correct, and a fully charged battery will last significantly longer than a partially charged one.

I guess I just find it a little disappointing/suspicious when my previous vehicles have been subject to the same usage pattern and have had batteries which have lasted at least 5 years with no special TLC.

I am aware of the fact that having stereo on without engine is a no-no, and that opening and shutting doors makes the car think it is going somewhere ,so I am careful when packing for trips etc.

Pat

[Graeme]

I guess I just find it a little disappointing/suspicious when my previous vehicles have been subject to the same usage pattern and have had batteries which have lasted at least 5 years with no special TLC. My sentiments exactly! I'm hoping the AGM can get enough charge in spite of the charging system's fuel economy bias.