Portals & D3's

[TerryO]

This is really more of a academic question then anything else but one that follows on from my previous question regarding body lifts for a D3.

Question being, would it be possible / has it been done and what would be the potential downside of fitting portals to a D3?

Firstly I don't know if it would be possible on a D3 but if you don't ask then you will never know. ;)

cheers,
Terry

[NavyDiver]

what are "Portals"?
I knew they were windows we look out off on a ship? but not sure what you mean on a D3 unless you have been checking out deep river crossings?:D

[~Rich~]

Portal units are found on "Live Axle" vehicles not "Independent" suspension vehicles such as the D3 or D4.
Buy a Nissan Pootrol if you want them!

[TerryO]

what are "Portals"?
I knew they were windows we look out off on a ship? but not sure what you mean on a D3 unless you have been checking out deep river crossings?:D



They do help heaps with deep water crossings if you have them ... ;)

They are basically drop axles driven by gears. They usually give about 4 inches of lift which raises diffs and all other under body bits. They are excellent for fitting larger wheel tyre combo's as well.

Not that common on straight axle 4x4's but many of the really serious punters get them fitted. The real issue for many is that they are relatively expensive and in some States are not allowed for rego.

cheers,
Terry

[Psimpson7]

Portal units are found on "Live Axle" vehicles not "Independent" suspension vehicles such as the D3 or D4.
Buy a Nissan Pootrol if you want them!

Thats not entirely correct. EG. US Military Humvees are independent with portals

[LowRanger]

Portal units are found on "Live Axle" vehicles not "Independent" suspension vehicles such as the D3 or D4.
Buy a Nissan Pootrol if you want them!


Why??
I know a beautiful 110 Puma on portals,and it definately isn't a Datsun.

Wayne

[isuzurover]

Portal units are found on "Live Axle" vehicles not "Independent" suspension vehicles such as the D3 or D4.
Buy a Nissan Pootrol if you want them!

Not at all. Portals are factory fitment to H1 (and later?) Hummers - which are 4-wheel independent, as well as IRS VW buses, and several military 4x4, 6x6 and 8x8s with fully independant suspensions. In fact Unimogs are probably one of the few solid axle vehicles which came with factory portals.

I constantly see people on this site shout down anyopne who dare suggest a modification... Rather than fix this silly non-mod culture, such threads have been relegated to the "modified zone" :angel:

TerryO,

There is no reason it couldn't be done, and it would probably be a good idea IMHO as the D3 needs some extra clearance... However I suspect you would be the first.

The easiest way may be to modify hummer portals to fit (or rather modify the suspension arms and axle shafts so you can fit hummer portals.

Lots of guys in the US have done this (hummer portal grafted onto a solid axle).
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/396.jpg

The only major PITA I can forsee would be sorting the ABS system, and dealing with the 5? computers the ABS system talks to...

EDIT:
Hummer portal in place on a hummer
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/397.jpg

[TerryO]

Portal units are found on "Live Axle" vehicles not "Independent" suspension vehicles such as the D3 or D4.
Buy a Nissan Pootrol if you want them!

Hi Rich,

yes I know Patrol, Fender and other 4x4 straight axle owners fit them occassionally. The question was, could they be fitted to a D3? So can they be fitted to a vehicle with independant suspension?

cheers,
Terry

[LowRanger]

Maxi drive portals give 5" of lift,and can be engineered in NSW.Which is important to us:D

Wayne




They do help heaps with deep water crossings if you have them ... ;)

They are basically drop axles driven by gears. They usually give about 4 inches of lift which raises diffs and all other under body bits. They are excellent for fitting larger wheel tyre combo's as well.

Not that common on straight axle 4x4's but many of the really serious punters get them fitted. The real issue for many is that they are relatively expensive and in some States are not allowed.

cheers,
Terry

[~Rich~]

Ok I stand corrected, but the question is could someone first develop and make road legal these kits for a D3/D4 etc.
I'd say not likely.
Maybe just for a comp vehicle but not for the road.

[isuzurover]

Ok I stand corrected, but the question is could someone first develop and make road legal these kits for a D3/D4 etc.
I'd say not likely.
Maybe just for a comp vehicle but not for the road.

Why not? As long as you conform to lift and track width rules, and ABS and brakes function as-before. These rules are the same for a D3 as for any other vehicle.

If anything, the engineering required to fit portals to an IFS vehicle is less onerous than for a solid axled vehicle.

The only difficult part may be to get the new/modified ABS system (if the ABS system needs to be changed/altered) to talk to the rest of the vehicle electronics.

[TerryO]

Hey guys,

the reason I ask these questions is soon D3's will be considered as being old and their prices will keep coming down. When price reaches a tipping point with 4x4's the people who buy them next are more often then not the serious off roaders looking at the next wave of vehicles to modify as serious off road toys.

And yes I expect current owners of new to relatively new $70,000 plus vehicles to wonder why I keep asking questions like this. But I reckon it is a good thing to stimulate discussion and the gray matter on what in a couple of years will be what some people may be doing to D3's.

Stop and imagine for a minute how good a D3 with air suspension, a E-diff and portals giving it a 5" lift plus 35 inch KM2's would be like off road if you could keep the electronic traction control gizmo's working?

By the way Rich there was no offence taken from what you said... ;)

cheers,
Terry

[~Rich~]

I'm not saying it can't be done, but would it be viable or commercially viable for say someone like Marks Adaptors considering the cost of the R&D etc it would take to develop?

[Tusker]

Maxi drive portals give 5" of lift,and can be engineered in NSW.Which is important to us:D

Wayne





Maxis are designed around 16" wheels & brakes though I'm 99% sure. Not impossible, just another engineering certificate hurdle on a D3.

Regards
Max P

[TerryO]

If your wondering what portals look like and what they achieve regarding lift then click on the link below. Make sure you look at the last picture of the 130 head on that really shows what kind of lift you can get.


Offroad Forum - Die groe deutschsprachige Community fr alle Offroad-, Allrad- und Reisebegeisterten :: Thema anzeigen - Der LR (Portal)-Achsenfred (http://www.offroad-forum.de/viewtopic.php't=3020&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210)

I believe these ones, from memory, are made in Germany and allow for larger modern brakes and come in 4" and 5" drops. :D

Sorry about it being in German...

cheers,
Terry

[DiscoWeb]

Obviously (from the question I am about to ask) I am not technical genius,

But why would portal hubs impact ABS ?

Additionally if it did, and using TerryO's logic, of this only really being considered as the D3 ages and gets cheaper and more likely to be modified, could you not simply disengage the ABS, or is that illegal ?

I am guessing that nothing is as simple as that and I assume the ABS impacts many of the traction and stability functions in a D3, DSC, HDC blah blah to name a few.

Interesting idea either way.

George

[TerryO]

If anyone wants to see the inside of portals so its obvious how they work check out the link to another posting elsewhere on this site. Just scan down the page of the link and it becomes very obvious.


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/99661-130-portals-12.html

Hey Discoweb, my thoughts would be that for it to be a viable proposition then the ABS would need to work and so would the other gizmo's and the D3's would need to be able to be registered. There are plenty of vehicles with ABS that have portals fitted and are registered after being passed by an engineer from what I can see.

cheers,
Terry

[isuzurover]

Obviously (from the question I am about to ask) I am not technical genius,

But why would portal hubs impact ABS ?

Additionally if it did, and using TerryO's logic, of this only really being considered as the D3 ages and gets cheaper and more likely to be modified, could you not simply disengage the ABS, or is that illegal ?

I am guessing that nothing is as simple as that and I assume the ABS impacts many of the traction and stability functions in a D3, DSC, HDC blah blah to name a few.

Interesting idea either way.

George

The ABS sensor is in the hub. At minimum the response of the ABS will be changed because of the added gear reduction between the hub and the wheel.

If the portal setup keeps the existing hubs then the above is the only issue. If the hubs are completely replaced (as in my H1 suggestion), then you need to sort out a new solution for the ABS sensor.

AFAIK disabling ABS is illegal.

[jonesy63]

Adding a portal would also increase the un-sprung weight - requiring a change to the suspension.

[LowRanger]

Maxis are designed around 16" wheels & brakes though I'm 99% sure. Not impossible, just another engineering certificate hurdle on a D3.

Regards
Max P

Yes,at the time they were made for Land Rovers with 16" wheels,but D3 etc have larger wheels anyway,and that will alleviate any clearance issues.And the height gained with the portals will all be relative,regardless of wheel size,if the same size wheel as originally fitted was used,so there would be no more need for any further certification than what would be required to fit the portals anyway.

Wayne

[gghaggis]

Would possibly work on a coiler, but the added unsprung weight would play havoc with the air suspension - you'd need to fit a limiting drop-chain or similar to protect the bags, but the spring response time would still be shot to Hell.

Re the ABS, no reason why you couldn't refit the toothed hub-ring and piezio sensor to the new hubs.

You could get a similar effect to a portal by adding a 2 ~ 3" block to the top mounts of the air springs, reset the camber and source up-rated CV's.

I seriously doubt you could get it road-legal though, especially over East.

Cheers,

Gordon

[isuzurover]

Would possibly work on a coiler, but the added unsprung weight would play havoc with the air suspension - you'd need to fit a limiting drop-chain or similar to protect the bags, but the spring response time would still be shot to Hell.
...


You could get a similar effect to a portal by adding a 2 ~ 3" block to the top mounts of the air springs, reset the camber and source up-rated CV's.

...

I seriously doubt you could get it road-legal though, especially over East.

Cheers,

Gordon

There are air-sprung solid-axled vehicles with aftermarket portals out there which work fine.

I disagree it would be a "similar effect" - sure you would get a lift from both but that would be all. Portals reduce gearing, thereby reducing torque on all the componants inboard of the portal box - which means that the (marginal) D3 CVs should last longer - Mal used stock RRC CVs on his portal assemblies and stock crownwheels and pinions - they all held up fine. You would also get much worse response from the suspension as the links will be at steeper angles, and the track width will have been reduced, unlike the increase which portals usually give.

The modification rules in most states are now the same, or will be soon. Most states have adopted the NCOP/VSB and even stragglers like QLD have indicated they will soon as well.

[~Rich~]

I'm sure Gordon, others and myself will applaud you once you achieve it. ;)
Good luck.

[TerryO]

Would possibly work on a coiler, but the added unsprung weight would play havoc with the air suspension - you'd need to fit a limiting drop-chain or similar to protect the bags, but the spring response time would still be shot to Hell.

Re the ABS, no reason why you couldn't refit the toothed hub-ring and piezio sensor to the new hubs.

You could get a similar effect to a portal by adding a 2 ~ 3" block to the top mounts of the air springs, reset the camber and source up-rated CV's.

I seriously doubt you could get it road-legal though, especially over East.

Cheers,

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

In my limited knowledge I would have thought putting a spacer on top of the airbag would extend the ark of the suspension before you even try to go over one obstacle and thus make it far less effective and it would dramatically increase the angle of the axles etc.

Adding portals you would be running standard suspension angles as the drop boxs don't change that at all. They would also help keep the centre of gravity lower where as adding a spacer to the top of the suspenion would only raise it.

I'm happy to stand corrected if my logic is incorrect, afterall I did say in my first post that I was asking these questions purely as a academic exercise.

cheers,
Terry

[isuzurover]

They would also help keep the centre of gravity lower where as adding a specer to the top of the suspenion would only raise it.


You are correct wrt suspension issues of "lifting" the current setup - the same as I have posted above.

However Wrt CofG, there won't be much in it either way. Lifted suspension will raise CofG, as will portals which raise the suspension by the same amount, but in the case of portals there will be a slight offset because of the weight of the portal boxes. But given that the Disco is 2.5T+, it won't make much practical difference.

However - what will make a big difference, is that your track will stay the same and/or increase with portals, whereas it would decrease with lifted suspension.

Another issue I forgot in my post above is CV joint angle. CV's tend to fail at higher angles, so lifting the suspension as a "poor man's portal" will mean CV's fail more often than on a standard D3.

[TerryO]

Hi Isuzurover,

Surely if you widen the track do you not keep the centre of gravity lower than if you raised the vehicle and left the track the same as standard?

cheers,
Terry

[isuzurover]

Hi Isuzurover,

Surely if you widen the track do you not keep the centre of gravity lower thenif you raised the vehicle and left the track the same as standard?

cheers,
Terry

CofG no, roll-stability yes.

This post by SlugBurner explains it best:

This image is exaggeratted but it serves to illustrate the point.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/375.jpg

track width increases the base of the stability triangle i.e., you will need a bigger side slope to take the centre of gravity outside the track width for the same CoG height. You can see this by how much you would have to rotate the vehicle about the point at the edge of the track.

CoG is a point in space where the centre of all the mass can be though of as being present for the purposes of further analysis (usually static analysis). The only way I can change the CoG is by redistributing the mass. to lower the CoG I have to place more of the overall mass down lower. Increasing the track width will not significantly redistribute the weigth/mass.

a definition

"The point in or near a body at which the gravitational potential energy of the body is equal to that of a single particle of the same mass located at that point and through which the resultant of the gravitational forces on the component particles of the body acts." probably not much good unless you already know what it means.

Here is a better/simpler one
"The center of mass or mass center is the mean location of all the mass in a system"

The above assumes the mass of the axles is the same in both cases.

[TerryO]

I'm sure Gordon, others and myself will applaud you once you achieve it. ;)
Good luck.

Hello Rich,

Not sure why you feel the need to keep on making sarcastic comments towards me on this topic, this is the second time now.

Can I refer you to my original posting/comment on this topic.

Portals & D3's
This is really more of a academic question then anything else but one that follows on from my previous question regarding body lifts for a D3.

Question being, would it be possible / has it been done and what would be the potential downside of fitting portals to a D3?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I have found that the internet is a great place to learn all sorts of things and further expand ones chosen field of interest and knowledge.

Conversly there has always been one very simple way of dealing with topics that you have no interest in or don't like and that is to ignore them.

cheers,
Terry

[TerryO]

CofG no, roll-stability yes.

This post by SlugBurner explains it best:


The above assumes the mass of the axles is the same in both cases.


Thanks for explaining that Isuzurover,

what it does show is that a D3 with portals would be far more stable than a lifted D3/4 ...that makes a lot of sense. :)

cheers,
Terry

[DiscoWeb]

Thanks for explaining that Isuzurover,

what it does show is that a D3 with portals would be far more stable than a lifted D3/4 ...that makes a lot of sense. :)

cheers,
Terry

Terry.

My read is that statement is only correct if you assume the portals increase track width and assume the effective height increase is about the same.

Not sure which is easier, achievable or legal :confused:

George

[TerryO]

Hey George,

looking at the pics of the various set ups it looks like portals add upto 100mm per side in vehicle width.

Would a D3 with a 4" portal lift with 33's to 35's tyres fitted be more stable then a standard D3? I would think not.

But it you were looking at lifting a D3 by some other meens even a few inches along with bigger tyres and with a standard track then chances are it would be more stable then that.

Reading a number of other comments it looks like it might be legal at least in some States to run vehicles with Portals and elsewhere on this site there are several vehicles, even new 130 Puma's, with portals that have passed an engineering check and are regoed.

I would imagine that doing it to a D3 would be quite a bit harder and more expensive then to a 130 but again if one doesn't look into it then how would you ever know if it was possible. I would bet a D3 with Portals, a e-diff and Terrain Responce would be better off road then a Puma with portals and lockers.

I must admit the more I find out about them the more it sparks my interest.

cheers,
Terry

[~Rich~]

Hello Rich,

Not sure why you feel the need to keep on making sarcastic comments towards me on this topic, this is the second time now.

Can I refer you to my original posting/comment on this topic.

Terry

I'm being realistic!!!
Again I'm not saying it's impossible, what I am saying is all about the costs and legalities of such a radical re engineering of a D3 / D4 or RRS.

Really as mentioned modifing a Defender would be a lot easier.
I've been a member of a 4wd club for over 20 yrs, one of my mates was the organiser of the very first Tough Truck Challenge which he ran for a few years before selling the event off. Yes I've seen many a super modified 4wd and even on a basic old fashioned 4x4 it is an expensive / time consuming process.

Why is this topic even in the D3/D4/RRS section? surely it belongs in the Extreme Zone. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/xtreme-zone/

Don't shoot me down for raising the important points of this discussion,
Legalities and Cost viability.

[TerryO]

Hi Rich,

In all seriousness why should I not be able to ask questions and then discuss topics like this about D3's in the D3/4 site without being mocked?

Surely at least some D3/4 owners have some interest in potential radical modifications to their vehicles for off road usage? I know I do and that is why I asked the question in the first place to see if it was possible.

In reality we all own a small niche brand vehicle compared to the big Jap 4x4 manufacturers. If we were all just absolute realists that took the simplist and easiest path then we would all own Toyota Landcruisers. Afterall they are the cheapist and easiest 4x4 on the market to modify with the largest list of mod parts available of any brand.

If people want to comment on topics like this then surely that is up to them, if they don't then no one is forcing them to. How about we stop this right here and now and just move on.

If and when I find out about the Greek shocks I will let you know and if your interested then lets see if they are worth getting. ;)

cheers,
Terry

[gghaggis]

Hi Ben/Terry,

If you look at my first post on this topic, you'll notice I said a suspension lift would give "similar" results, not the same - I also noted that you'd need to re-adjust the camber (which would probably require modification to the lower control arms at least) and to the CV's (maybe even fit a Thompson coupling!!) - Ben, are you still in "skim" mode :( ?

I think you're both underestimating how hard it is becoming to get engineering approval for such mods, and a 4" lift is way beyond that allowed for in the NCOP documents. So I think it's safe to say that, even though it _may_ have slipped through in the past (and I've never heard of an independent, air suspension vehicle being approved for road use with after-market portals in Oz!), it would become an off-road only vehicle.

As an academic question, of course you could fit portals. AND a suspension lift. AND a body lift. And add an extra axle. And increase the track. Has anyone seriously thought about it? I doubt it - the reason most balk at extreme mods to vehicles like D3's and D4's is that the vast majority are still under warranty, and voiding that on a $80 000+ vehicle is cause for concern. Making such a vehicle illegal also doesn't make financial sense. Far more cost effective to get an old Defender 90 and start from there. You'd end up with a far more capable off-roader as well.

The great strength of the D3/D4 is that it can more than keep up with any other stock 4WD, and still provide an on-road experience that is light-years ahead. If you compromise one or the other of these, why have one in the first place? It makes little sense.

So to realistically answer your original question - "can it be done", no, not effectively. Better to start with a less complicated base.

Cheers,

Gordon

[isuzurover]

Hi Ben/Terry,

If you look at my first post on this topic, you'll notice I said a suspension lift would give "similar" results, not the same - I also noted that you'd need to re-adjust the camber (which would probably require modification to the lower control arms at least) and to the CV's (maybe even fit a Thompson coupling!!) - Ben, are you still in "skim" mode :( ?

...

Gordon


Gordon, I read what you said, but disagree that a D3 with modified control arms, suspension and CVs would be "similar" to fitting portals.

I think that TerryO is correct. In 5-10 years these vehicles will be cheap - and - assuming they are still on the road, there will be people who wish to modify them for serious offroad use. That may include fitting portals???

I haven't read the latest VSB/NCOP draft, however an earlier iteration allowed 150 mm total lift (Tyres+BL+SL) and 50 mm increase in track.

However, as we can see currently, there are plenty of 4x4 owners willing to perform modifications that are beyond the legalities.

[gghaggis]

Gordon, I read what you said, but disagree that a D3 with modified control arms, suspension and CVs would be "similar" to fitting portals.

Although technically very different, many of the end results - ramp-over angle, centre (below diff) ground clearance, tyre-size fitment - would be similar. Others such as gearing and track could be made similar (diff ratios, spacers etc). Obviously clearance below the outside CV joint would differ. Compared to std live axle set-ups, there is not such an advantage to fitting portals to a variable-height independent vehicle. The diff clearance (usually the biggest reason for fitting portals) is no longer an issue.



I think that TerryO is correct. In 5-10 years these vehicles will be cheap - and - assuming they are still on the road, there will be people who wish to modify them for serious offroad use. That may include fitting portals???

I haven't read the latest VSB/NCOP draft, however an earlier iteration allowed 150 mm total lift (Tyres+BL+SL) and 50 mm increase in track.

However, as we can see currently, there are plenty of 4x4 owners willing to perform modifications that are beyond the legalities.

As I said - ASSUME that the resultant vehicle will be illegal - even more so in "5 to 10 years" with the way our culture is suffocating in OHS legislation.

For someone with enough money and time, it would make an interesting competition car, but just fitting portals wouldn't be enough, as in that case you'd probably be relegated to the extreme classes, where the size and manoeuvrability of the D3 would let it down.

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

Hi Ben/Terry,

Edited:

As an academic question, of course you could fit portals.

Edited:


So to realistically answer your original question - "can it be done", no, not effectively. Better to start with a less complicated base.

Cheers,

Gordon


Sorry Gordon you are contradicting yourself here, either it can be done or it can't, you have said both in one post.

As for it being best to only do modifications to less complicated vehicles well that comes back to Rich's comment about being realists about what can or should be done as far as mods go and if we were all realists looking for the least complicated path then we would all be driving 4x4 Toyota's and Patrol's rather then Land Rovers.

I'm the first to admit I have very limited knowledge compared to many on this website when it comes to 4x4 mods, but as far as I can see portals make much more sense logically as a mod on a D3 then trying to lift the independant suspension and the body to attain a similar or more then likely lesser clearance than portals would give.

And Portals no one argues so far would be much stronger and chances are more reliable and would make the vehicle far more stable for serious off road use.

As for comp trucks I'd guess maybe less then 5% of 4x4 owners have comp trucks or do comps. There are plenty of very higly modified 4x4's out there that just get used on weekends in the bush and never see competition.

The same things goes for highly modified road bikes/ race bikes, in NSW's there are over 7,000 regular riders who do ride days on race tracks each year and many of their bikes are far more modified then the bikes that get raced. As for modern road racing there is less then 600 comp license holders in NSW and only about 250 odd actually race.


cheers,
Terry

[gghaggis]

Terry,

No I'm not contradicting myself - I read my response several times before posting, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough?

Academically - yes it can be done. With enough money almost anything can be done.

Realistically - no, it doesn't make sense, especially at this point in time where there are far better-suited Land Rover products. I'm afraid I don't see the connect between being a realist and driving Toyotas.

The most over-riding reason people fit portals is to increase the clearance under the diff. IMO, the majority of people who have done this would not go to this level of complexity if there was a better way of increasing this clearance. Unfortunately with a live axle car, there is no real alternative.

In a D3 you do not have that disadvantage. The diff is no longer the point of minimum clearance. It thus greatly reduces the argument for the need to fit portals. A body lift (and yes, maybe a suspension lift too), some judicious cutting of the wheel arches and fitting say 35" tyres, will give you around as much lift under your diff as fitting a set of portals to a live axle 4WD. However, probably still just as illegal, so really just an academic exercise as well.

So given that (much easier) path, why would you want to fit them?

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

One other point that has been raised is why would anyone want to modify a expensive D3.

Some D3's are a massive amount cheaper now then they were even 12 months ago. Even on here I have heard of D3 owners being offered extremely low trade in prices and I have seen D3's for sale under 30k now.

Good D2a's sell for high teens for V8's and for low twentys for TD5's.

The gap between D2a and D3's is closing so D3's aren't the expensive vehicle that many may think. I saw a top condition 2005 HSE V8 D3 with only 120k on the clock get bid up to only $28,100 recently on ebay. I know the owner and he is struggling to get a buyer at any price so it won't be long before there are plenty of D3's being sold for numbers in the high twenty thousands.

So even now D3's are fast becoming affordable 4x4's for the guys who do mods to their vehicles. Go have a look on the D2 site, there are pelnty of highly modded D2's out there that would struggle with rego but that doesn't stop them being modded.

cheers,
Terry

[isuzurover]

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/hiline_01/0123081621-00.jpg

The modified D3s are starting to come out of the woodwork.

[TerryO]

Terry,

No I'm not contradicting myself - I read my response several times before posting, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough?

Academically - yes it can be done. With enough money almost anything can be done.

Realistically - no, it doesn't make sense, especially at this point in time where there are far better-suited Land Rover products. I'm afraid I don't see the connect between being a realist and driving Toyotas.

The most over-riding reason people fit portals is to increase the clearance under the diff. IMO, the majority of people who have done this would not go to this level of complexity if there was a better way of increasing this clearance. Unfortunately with a live axle car, there is no real alternative.

In a D3 you do not have that disadvantage. The diff is no longer the point of minimum clearance. It thus greatly reduces the argument for the need to fit portals. A body lift (and yes, maybe a suspension lift too), some judicious cutting of the wheel arches and fitting say 35" tyres, will give you around as much lift under your diff as fitting a set of portals to a live axle 4WD. However, probably still just as illegal, so really just an academic exercise as well.

So given that (much easier) path, why would you want to fit them?

Cheers,

Gordon


Hi Gordon,

there is one other really good reason for fitting portals and that is to allow much bigger tyre rim combo's and the D3 is severly limited for options with its present set up. Only portals would allow much bigger tyre/rim combo's as far as I can see.

Add 4" portals along with new bars back and front and I'm guessing you could fit 33's to 35's on a D3 and the suspension would still be at standard angles not at hyper extended angles that you would get with a spacer on top of the airbag .

That being the case with standard angles on the suspenion you could still use the Air suspension to raise it another two inches and or lower it if need be.

Would you not agree?

cheers,
Terry

[gghaggis]

One other point that has been raised is why would anyone want to modify a expensive D3.

Some D3's are a massive amount cheaper now then they were even 12 months ago. Even on here I have heard of D3 owners being offered extremely low trade in prices and I have seen D3's for sale under 30k now.

Good D2a's sell for high teens for V8's and for low twentys for TD5's.

The gap between D2a and D3's is closing so D3's aren't the expensive vehicle that many may think. I saw a top condition 2005 HSE V8 D3 with only 120k on the clock get bid up to only $28,100 recently on ebay. I know the owner and he is struggling to get a buyer at any price so it won't be long before there are plenty of D3's being sold for numbers in the high twenty thousands.

So even now D3's are fast becoming affordable 4x4's for the guys who do mods to their vehicles. Go have a look on the D2 site, there are pelnty of highly modded D2's out there that would struggle with rego but that doesn't stop them being modded.

cheers,
Terry

So is this now more than an "academic" question? Are you equating those kinds of mods with fitting portals? The "guys who do mods to their vehicles" don't normally go that far, and for good reason. To my mind, even a D2a would still be too expensive a car to go destroying by fitting a mod like that. Try driving it down the freeway! An old D1 on a trailer maybe .........

Although I was called nuts for doing the mods in the pic below, at least the vehicle was still able to be returned to near-standard in a couple of hours. You could probably go further and still be within the NCOP guidelines.

And still be able to drive the car around town :)

Cheers,

Gordon

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/08/336.jpg

[gghaggis]

Hi Gordon,

there is one other really good reason for fitting portals and that is to allow much bigger tyre rim combo's and the D3 is severly limited for options with its present set up. Only portals would allow much bigger tyre/rim combo's as far as I can see.

Add 4" portals along with new bars back and front and I'm guessing you could fit 33's to 35's on a D3 and the suspension would still be at standard angles not at hyper extended angles that you would get with a spacer on top of the airbag .

That being the case with standard angles on the suspenion you could still use the Air suspension to raise it another two inches and or lower it if need be.

Would you not agree?

cheers,
Terry

Re-read my post before - you don't need portals to fit 35" tyres to a D3. Not even a suspension lift. A body-lift and some wheel arch cutting will do it.

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

So is this now more than an "academic" question? Are you equating those kinds of mods with fitting portals? The "guys who do mods to their vehicles" don't normally go that far, and for good reason. To my mind, even a D2a would still be too expensive a car to go destroying by fitting a mod like that. Try driving it down the freeway! An old D1 on a trailer maybe .........

Although I was called nuts for doing the mods in the pic below, at least the vehicle was still able to be returned to near-standard in a couple of hours. You could probably go further and still be within the NCOP guidelines.

And still be able to drive the car around town :)

Cheers,

Gordon


For me it is academic because I have no plans to do it, but as I'm saying this will become a serious option for the next generation of D3 owners.

As for there not being many highly modified D2a's around I don't think your looking very far, there are plenty and most mods that are done the owners accept that they are on a one way street.

Still that is their choice just as it was your choice to mod your D3 when most others thought you were crazy for doing it.

Just because some present D3/4 owners think mods like portals are daft doesn't meen that everyone does, nor that it won't be done by many in the not to distant future.

I reckon if the bloke in Germany who is doing kits for Puma's right now did kist for D3's at a half decent cost then in a couple of years you would start to see D3's with these mods starting to pop up more and more.

Do you agree or not that it would be a better vehicle off road if you had a D3 with say a 6" lift using portals and larger tyres with standard suspension angles compared to having a modded jacked up D3 with a simialr 6" lift that already has hyper extended suspension before you even start to go off road?

Which has the potential to work better?

By the way Gordon, for what it is worth, thank you for the intelligent debate I'm enjoying this discussion and learning lots of interesting information as it goes on.

cheers,
Terry

[gghaggis]

Terry,

I don't doubt there are many highly-modified D2's around. But do you know of any with portals? In fact, have you ever seen a 4WD with after-market portals?

They are as rare as hen's teeth. Have you stopped to think why?

Even within the narrow confines of the dedicated off-roader, there is a very small niche group who would need or consider them. And a D3 with 35" tyres would probably keep up with most of them even without portals - actually an RRS would be better, as it's a shorter wheelbase ;)

If you're really considering driving that kind of terrain, the size and weight of a D3 (now an extra 6" further off the ground!!) wouldn't make it a practical vehicle to expend those kind of resources on. For the same or lesser cost, you could take an RRS, bob-tail it, remove the front plastic bumper cover and supporting structures, add a 2" body lift, cut back the wheel arches and fit 35" muddies. Add shortened HS rods, modify the camber and you're looking at around 6" of extra lift, without venturing into "hyper exended" angles or using portals.

Hmm - once mine's out of warranty, sounds like a project :D

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

Terry,

I don't doubt there are many highly-modified D2's around. But do you know of any with portals? In fact, have you ever seen a 4WD with after-market portals?

They are as rare as hen's teeth. Have you stopped to think why?

Even within the narrow confines of the dedicated off-roader, there is a very small niche group who would need or consider them. And a D3 with 35" tyres would probably keep up with most of them even without portals - actually an RRS would be better, as it's a shorter wheelbase ;)

If you're really considering driving that kind of terrain, the size and weight of a D3 (now an extra 6" further off the ground!!) wouldn't make it a practical vehicle to expend those kind of resources on. For the same or lesser cost, you could take an RRS, bob-tail it, remove the front plastic bumper cover and supporting structures, add a 2" body lift, cut back the wheel arches and fit 35" muddies. Add shortened HS rods, modify the camber and you're looking at around 6" of extra lift, without venturing into "hyper exended" angles or using portals.

Hmm - once mine's out of warranty, sounds like a project :D

Cheers,

Gordon

Well Gordon I for one would be very interested in seeing your RRS with those mods just mentioned.
In fact once it was done if you felt so inclined to include me in a days off roading in it then chances are I'd jump on a plane and come visit. ;)

cheers,
Terry

[gghaggis]

Actually, why even bother stopping at portals?

" + title + " (http://www.versatracks.com/gallery/Data/page.htm?18,0)

Cheers,

Gordon

[isuzurover]

I don't doubt there are many highly-modified D2's around. But do you know of any with portals? In fact, have you ever seen a 4WD with after-market portals?

They are as rare as hen's teeth. Have you stopped to think why?

Even within the narrow confines of the dedicated off-roader, there is a very small niche group who would need or consider them. And a D3 with 35" tyres would probably keep up with most of them even without portals - actually an RRS would be better, as it's a shorter wheelbase ;)


There are probably at least 10 members on here who have portals. I suspect the reason more don't is due to cost more than anything else.

There is even a portal axled D2(a?) on here (Monsterdisco(?)) - from the UK - which has unimog axles and is apparently fully road legal in the UK. Not my cup of tea, but then... There are also a few portal axles D2s in iceland.

IME portals are mainly suited to the deeply rutted tracks in VIC and TAS. I haven't felt the need for them in WA. However I wished I had portals when I was back in QLD recently.

[gghaggis]

IME portals are mainly suited to the deeply rutted tracks in VIC and TAS. I haven't felt the need for them in WA. However I wished I had portals when I was back in QLD recently.

I think the VersaTracks would be a better proposition - just chuck them in the back and fit when required. But at $18,000 a set, I guess there wouldn't be too many of them either!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Grover-98]

Portal units are found on "Live Axle" vehicles not "Independent" suspension vehicles such as the D3 or D4.
Buy a Nissan Pootrol if you want them!

False... example of independent vehicles with portals include;

1. Haflinger
2. Pinzgauer
2. Humvee
3. Hummer
4. Even some of the old Combies had these...

And i am sure there were more!

Cheers.

[~Rich~]

False... example of independent vehicles with portals include;

1. Haflinger
2. Pinzgauer
2. Humvee
3. Hummer
4. Even some of the old Combies had these...

And i am sure there were more!

Cheers.


Ok I stand corrected, but the question is could someone first develop and make road legal these kits for a D3/D4 etc.
I'd say not likely.
Maybe just for a comp vehicle but not for the road.

Grover read through the whole thread first,
It seems that Gordon is on the same wavelength that I am.
No one through out this thread has said it could not be done, Gordon & I included.
The majority of your list are vehicles are designed and manufactured with portal hubs.
Who want's to take the project on?

[TerryO]

Grover read through the whole thread first,
It seems that Gordon is on the same wavelength that I am.
No one through out this thread has said it could not be done, Gordon & I included.
The majority of your list are vehicles are designed and manufactured with portal hubs.
Who want's to take the project on?


She'll be right Rich, I don't think anyone anytime soon will be trying to build a D3 with portals however for me anyway this has been a very interesting discussion, as I hoped it would be, and some great points have been made on both sides of the debate. ;)

cheers,
Terry

[jz-is-fishing]

Feel kinda scared to jump in here, but I also looked at portals for the D3, I can add a few points but guess many already know this.

They cost a heap, check out killer axels out of Germany also Expidition Portal has several posts and examples of variations.

What I do like beyond the lift is bigger tires, but also that the force and wear on Axels is reduced by 30-50%, Ive snapped one and it sucks out in the bush. Bad part is that the killer Axels, perhaps more so than the Aussie version of Portals will slow down the rig significantlt because of the extra gearing. there can also be some heat build up, so I am told.

BTW the spacer above the air bag, see Toddco suspensions, does lift but strains the axels even more. I am considering them however but would also look to get some kind of limiter strap or better yet a steel guard to protect the base of the air bags in the front as the extra extension has ruined several of the airbags by having the upper control arm contact and puncture the aluminum skin. Check out (LandRover repair Forum (Lrrf.com) forum.

Anyway love to see Portals on a rig, don't think Ill run into the same legal issues in the States, but cost is the killer.

Cheers

[TerryO]

Hi jz,

it would be great if you would keep us up to date on what you decide to do and what you find out works best for you with your LR3. E

specially if when you do it if you could post some pictures of the mods on here. I'm sure there would be plenty of people who would like to see them and find out what you have done.

By the way no need to worry about someone having a go at you for offering your thoughts and experiences, especially as a new member.

We were just having a bit of healthy robust debate amongst locals. ;)


cheers,
Terry

[jz-is-fishing]

Thanks Terry

I'm not yet moving on the portals, it would be awhile, perhaps a year or more before I get there. would love to see it done though. I still have more mods to do.

Been living out of Australia for about 5 years or so, back in the states they don't take the **** like they do in Australia. Anyway its been a good thread.

I'll have to dig for current mod photos I've done. Still have to mount the rear bumper, its sitting in my garage. Left to do is a few minor mods, like the trunk latch then the ToddCo spacers and custom guards, custom Tank Skid and Custom Engine Skid to protect the radiator sides a bit, Baja Roof Rack then Safari Snorkel. At least I found a good local fabricator, which helps now. May play around with the exhaust if needed and also an aux tranny cooler or remote fan, she's gotten hot a few times.

Anyway its all good fun

Cheers

[rmp]

If anyone wants to put portals on a D3 or D4 good on them. It'd be an interesting vehicle. It would be ruined onroad due to much greater unsprung weight and a higher CoG, and I'm not sure it'd work all that well offroad as presumably much larger tyres would go with it and thus the traction control settings would be out. And the reinforcing needed in various areas with the much heavier axles wouldn't help the overall weight. There would also be an efficiency loss with the extra gears.

So it'd be an impressive engineering job, but I think rather pointless if you look at it from a pure usefulness perspective. But since when did that stop anyone modifying a vehicle and never should it, do it because you want to!

[rb30gtr]

Info from Tibus:
Tibus offroad are currently designing the portals for IFS LC's, and if they get enough interest world wide they would be happy to design them for the D3/4
Biggest expense would be making the forging dies to make new steering knuckles for the independent axles, and they would need to put a fair bit of research into the electronics.

But agree with others in here, I'd actually love to see one done! And I am sure as the D3's get older and cheaper some serious modders will start playing with them a fair bit.

Anyone see the monster D3/LR3, of course it has gone to live axles and a huge custom frame, but what a build! Landrover discovery 3 monster truck - YouTube

[TerryO]

I must admit vehicles that are that modified do nothing for me.

Personally I like to see how far one can go on vehicles that can still be used on road on a regular basis.

[rb30gtr]

I must admit vehicles that are that modified do nothing for me.

Personally I like to see how far one can go on vehicles that can still be used on road on a regular basis.

Totally on the same page.

And even better, keeping up with the super modded vehicles in a pretty much standard setup!

I do like the look and thought of the Portals though. Great technology!

My mate priced the Mopar plug and play portal axel's and diffs for his JK Jeep, full setup over 30 grand..

[TerryO]

I'd consider it if it was around 15k or so but 30k would to me not be an option. That is just way o much to see value.

Still each to their own.

[rb30gtr]

I'd consider it if it was around 15k or so but 30k would to me not be an option. That is just way o much to see value.

Still each to their own.

Agree, 30 is a lot to put into a jeep..haha

Portal's for the D1 would be around the 12-15 mark, nudge nudge.

Cheers,
Ben