Puma engine rattle under acceleration

[Brid]

Under acceleration (esp from cold), I get a rattle from the engine. This morning was the worst I have experienced.

It is a real CLATTER rather than a knock. No smoke at all. It happens above 2000rpm & even light gentle acceleration will cause it. It does tend to disappear when up to temperature.

The oil stays in good, clean condition. My scan gauge hasn't picked up any fault codes at all. The engine light doesn't come on.

Anyone know of any possible causes? I sort of suspect it could be an injection problem...maybe. Maybe a sensor playing up, or computer issue??

Any comments would be welcome.

Thanks
Brid

[RR P38]

What millage on the engine?
How old is the oil? correct grade for climate?
Oil pump good?
How cold was it when you started it up?

[Brid]

This engine has done 68,000km
Oil is due for 10,000km change now
Oil pump and pressure are fine
Not a cold morning at all...guess 15C

[PAT303]

Wasn't there a software patch for this problem?. Pat

[Drover]

Sounds like too much rail pressure....

This will cause it sound like a bag of spanners being tossed around under acceleration.

[TimNZ]

Hi Bird,

My 2010 was doing the exact same thing you mentioned, hasn't done it since the EGR was changed though.

If the vehicle is out of warranty you could try disconnection the EGR electrical connection and see if the rattle goes away. The engine warning light will come on eventually however. This can be cleared with a scangauge or similar, or just plug the EGR back in and the light should go out again after several driving cycles.

Cheers,

Tim

[Brid]

I just came home from a cold start, and the rattle was apparent under acceleration or load till temperature reached around 75C. Then is was OK again as it warmed up further. That's a good thought about the patch Pat30, as it doesn't seem like the injectors themselves to me & no smoke at all.

I wonder if Drover's thought about rail pressure too high could be related to engine management or crook sensor. Maybe I'm getting too much rail pressure if the computer thinks the engine is running colder that it is??

I'll disconnect the EGR electric connection tomorrow morning TimNZ, and see what happens. Thanks for those comments, and if anyone has any further information on the software patch, could you let me know please?

Thanks
Brid

[Geezer]

Hi Brid, I have similar rattle also when its cold, not very loud, almost sounds like a small plate rattling which I notice more at night. Mine is new Defer with less than 7K on the clock and I'm still investigating........
any other knowledge on this would help as you know the stealers just look at you when you say there is a rattle somewhere!:eek:

[Brid]

Hi Geezer
My rattle did sound like a loose metal shroud rattling away for ages, but has just become more obvious & louder. Could be similar. I'll certainly post whatever I learn about it.
Brid

[Brid]

This morning I disconnected the wiring plug to the EGR, as TimNZ suggested, and reversed up the driveway. Then I noticed that it had gone into limp home mode, so I reconnected it and continued. The rattle was pretty minor compared to yesterday's, so there may be some connection...time will tell (perhaps). Anyway...thanks TimNZ, it was worth doing.

One thing is for sure...this rattle is not the sort of thing I have ever encountered with mechanically controlled diesels, and that makes me think more along the lines of faulty sensors, connections, control glitches.

Brid

[patclan]

I have the exact same noise, but not sure if it is temp related but I always hear it when cold, maybe it goes away when warmed up, it goes in for its 70k service next week, I have asked LR to check it out for the 3rd time, and this time I will be a bit firmer with them and not wait until the next service to ask again, if they find anything I will post.

This time there is no other noise to cover it up so should be easier for them to pick it up, last time I complained it also had noisy clutch springs and the exhaust shield was rattling.

cheers.

[Brid]

Good luck with that Patclan. I hope they sort it for you & be interested to find out what they find.

[solmanic]

If you do a search about Puma engine rattle you will find several threads people have posted with this problem. The extent ranges from mild (as in my case) to extreme (as in Dullbird's case where she had her entire engine replaced).

I had it in my MY07 Defender - usually in cold weather shortly after start-up. The dealer replaced the EGR then replaced the fuel common rail - still there. Software patch sometime in 2009 - hasn't happened since.

[Trout]

My 2010 started doing this too. Most noticeable when cold and under acceleration. Just had 20k service and told dealer about it. Got the standard answer that all is well and nothing wrong. However it's not there any more after service. Has not been as cold here but definitely less rattle now. So who knows. :(. If it comes back I'll just keep complaining until they fix it or I finally break it properly :twisted:

[Brid]

Yes Solmanic
This is my second engine, but it's not the same rattle as prompted LR to replace the first one. The first one only rattled on very cold mornings on the first gear change, and they concluded oil jets under pistons not opening properly.

The current rattle is evident from any cold start until the engine is warm, and does it under load (even light load) or acceleration. So even after being parked for say 4 hrs, it will do it again until temperature is around 75C.

Mine's out of warranty now at 151,000km (68,000km on this engine), so I need to fix it.

Brid

[Lorryman100]

To me it sounds as if the fuel rail pressure sensor is sending erroneous messages to the ECU when the engine is cold due to a sticking High Pressure rail control valve. This was supposed to have been cured through Service Action Number Q068 and really only applies in colder climes but you never know? Q068 happened to me and the clatter was very loud just before the rail pressure was dumped and the landy went into limp mode though the outside temp was -15C. They fixed the problem by fitting a complete new fuel rail (fuel rail pressure sensor and pressure limiting valve).

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/lorryman100/pressurereleifvalve.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

From the sound of your issues the first part of the explanation seems to marry up with your symptoms? Is your vehicle in the VIN range on the SAN?

When driving following a cold engine start where the engine coolant temperature is <5°C and accelerated with a throttle pedal input >35° and a gear change is made at an engine speed of >2000rpm there is a possibility that the High Pressure rail control valve can stick and cause high rail pressure.

Have you the means to monitor and record the fuel rail pressure? If so I would be curious as to the fuel rail pressure when the engine is cold and clattery compared to when it was warm. The Puma optimum pressure at the rail is a 1600 bar maximum (2320PSI) and the pressure limiting valve operates at 1800 bar (26106PSI) and will need replacing if it has operated as it is a one shot deal.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/lorryman100/Defender%20110/Fuelrail.jpg

As to getting the MIL illuminated and entering Limp mode after unplugging the EGR, I had mine unplugged for about 6 months without it going into limp mode, did you do a DTC scan? if so can you post the DTC codes? I would expect to see P1402 and P1409 if the EGR plug is removed? But if there are any others they may be the cause of the limp mode, especially pending DTC's which in conjunction with the tested DTC's of the unplugged EGR may induce Limp mode, though limp mode is there to protect the engine from being damaged, something an unplugged EGR wont do!

P1402 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Metering Orifice Restricted
P1409 EGR Vacuum Regulator Solenoid Circuit

HTH Brian.

[patclan]

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/lorryman100/enginelackspowerandmililluminated.jpg

From the sound of your issues the first part of the explanation seems to marry up with your symptoms? Is your vehicle in the VIN range on the SAN?


HTH Brian.

OK stupid question time, in the SAN do you count the last 6 numbers in the VIN? if so I am in there..

[dullbird]

Also if I remember rightly Mahn (oneiota) had a rattle at one stage and I'm sure he had moisture on one of his connector or sensors I cant exactly remember now..

I just remember him saying he disconnected something gave it a wipe put it back together and never had a drama after that

[Brid]

Looks like the rattle has now been fixed, as I have done a further 13,000kms trouble free. Although it was an “in house fix” through my business, and an experimental one at that rate, it may shed some light on the nature of this particular problem.

As initially stated, the symptoms were a very audible clattering type engine noise, occurring under acceleration (or load) after cold start. Once the water temperature exceeded 75C, it no longer happened. It had been happening for a few months, but suddenly became much louder, and lasted longer. So bad that I thought it might be suffering its death rattle, and that’s when I posted this thread.

I routinely use fuel system detergent each tank, but later realized I had run out 2 tanks before the loudest clattering developed. That pointed me to the fuel injection system, rather than computer controls. Re-introduction of fuel detergent made no discernable difference, at this point. I then added a small quantity of an ashless anti-wear (principally designed for lube oil). The next morning’s cold start was much improved...only a slight rattle. And in the 13,000+kms since, nothing at all! I would now have to conclude that the problem is fixed. My thoughts are that this particular problem may be related to a lack of fuel lubricity, and possibly fuel system deposits. Exactly what components of the fuel system it involves is unclear to me.

As I mentioned, the fix is experimental so we are not currently in a position to sell it, but if anyone does have a problem, we might be able to help out. Probably best to PM me, as I’m not on AULRO on a daily basis.

Thanks to all who offered advice.

Brid