GM 5L40E transmission Re-built to 5L50E specs

[Laurie]

Wades Garage in the US have rebuilt a Pontiac Solstice -with a LS7 and a Heavy Duty 5L50E Transmission in the old 5L40E transmission case. Quote from site.

"The original 5L40E transmission would never hold up to the LS7's power and torque. But we need to maintain the small-sized transmission case to fit the Solstice tunnel. So we used a combination of parts from the Solstice, a Cadillac XLR, and a Cadillac STS-V to build a stout 5L50E that does the job."

http://www.wadesgarage.com/gallery/main ... temId=7186

I wonder if this could be a viable option on beefing up the Td6's auto, would love to hear peoples opinions. The LS7 is 7 litres, 500hp,475 ft-lb / 657 nm @ 4800 and does 7100 rpm! so the Td6 won't stretch it.

[Laurie]

This has been an ongoing job since I got this reply from Wades Garage;

“Your best option as far as I know would be to buy a complete 5L50 for a Cadillac STS or XLR. That will get all of the heavy duty parts in one package. Do some research to find out which one of the Caddy transmissions are closest to your Range Rover as far as case design. Also check which side the shifter stub exits the trans case to attach to your shift linkage. When I did the one for the V8 Solstice, I found 5L40 and 5L50 parts and information very hard to find. But the complete Caddy 5L50's are not hard to find, and all of the heavy duty parts are inside.”
Wade “

The 5L50E is a upgraded 5L40E ! this is a quote from GM Powertrain.

‘The 5L50-E was designed to manage at least a 25 percent increase in horsepower and torque over the existing 5L40-E. Among its host of performance features, the 5L50-E gives drivers the ability to partially override the normal automatic gear selection for greater control when more aggressive driving performance is desired.’

GM Powertrain to Debut New Hydra-Matic 5-Speed (http://www.new-cars.com/news/020905-gm-hydramatic-5speed.html)

Wear

The 5L40E has some very real problems - nearly all of which are pressure related. In a nutshell, the biggest wear issues stem from wear in the valve body bores and in the torque converter clutch valve bore. It seems that, for whatever reason, the aluminium used by GM in the casting of these pieces is softer than the material used in other (older) GM transmissions. This wear leads to improper shift/lock-up pressures which in turn leads to premature wear in the rest of the transmission components (which drop particulates into the fluid and exacerbate the wear in the valve bores) and, at some point, transmission failure. It is also quite common for the planetary thrust washers on these units to suffer from extreme wear, or even to disintegrate completely.

Valve Body

From 2004 both the 5L40E & 5L50E use the same upgraded valve body. From Transtar Ind.

P134740-1 5l40e 99-01 stamp # 789 BMW w/new ePc & Tcc solenoids/tested
P134740-2 5l40e/50e 02-up stamp # 378 BMW/cadillac shift solenoids w/upgraded aFl/Tcc
P134740-3 5l40e/50e 04-up stamp # 374 cadillac valves

Replacement Valve Bodies.

Europeantransmissions and... (http://europeantransmissionscom.x-shops.com/shop/product.php?productid=16566&cat=1083&page=1) price: $480.00 (euro355.06)

http://www.valvebodypros.com/details/5L40E.htm

5L40E (http://www.800700tran.com/prod.itml/icOid/506) Our Price: $329.95

Torque Converters:

Stock: Torque Converters (http://europeantransmissionscom.x-shops.com/shop/home.php?cat=765) Our price: $240.00 (euro177.53)

Mild: 3 Disc Converter from Precision of New Hampton $250 - $800 depending on specs which you can order.

About Precision of New Hampton Torque Converters (http://gopnh.com/about-Precision-of-New-Hampton.cfm)

Wild: Level 10 PTS Billet Torque Converter PG, SUPER TURBINE 300, 5L40E, Our Price: $1,098.00





Heavy Duty Rebuild Kits:

BMW | Cadillac 5L40E Transmission Rebuild Kit (http://www.levelten.com/Level_10_PTS_Billet_Torque_Converter_p/gmct-gm310-9730.htm) $759

134006A Master kit, 5L40E / 5L50E- 4 wd (AWD) *Email for availability
2001 - Up 4 wheel (AWD) drive For cars made for the USA market! Bonded pistons are NOT included

GM RWD Transmission Parts 5L40E, 5L50E Transmission Parts Makco Transmission Parts (http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/5L40E-5L50E.html)

Oil Pumps

The sump capacity in the 5L40E creates problems with pressure also.

[url]www.sonnax.com/system/pdfs/141/original/TASC-TIP-02-09.pdf?1289926276

An upgrade to a Sonnox unit would be a good start. A Level 10 PTS Bulletproof, SUPER TURBINE 300, 5L40E $398.00



Thrust Washers

Use of these thrust washers, now makes it possible to reclaim previously unserviceable planetary units, considerably reducing rebuilding costs.

[url=http://www.automaticchoice.com/new_parts.html]Automatic Choice, New Parts (http://www.levelten.com/Level_10_PTS_Super_Pump_p/gmct-gm1400-6120.htm)

As you can see local prices are a bit stiff even for allowing freight from O/S; there are other sources for parts, I just used the above sites for cost references. Just to confuse things GM recommends Dexron for the 5L50E, I think I would still use the good oil just for peace of mind.

The only way I suppose to be sure is to get someone to try and rebuild a 5L40E to 5L50E standards.
Any takers ???
Laurie

[33chinacars]

Hi Laurie

Did you ask Wades about building a box. ie sending one over and have them rebuild it with all the good bits done.

Gary

[Leo]

Would be good to try and get some pictures of the two boxes side by side - if not much difference, would it be feasible to just fit the stronger one? Also, they mention that post 2004 5L-40Es had an upgraded valve body - are post 2004 td6s hence more reliable, gearbox wise, than pre '04?

Am looking to get a l322, but the gearbox issue on the td6 has me a bit worried.
Thanks!

[RR P38]

It seems the vast majority of TD6 owners are completely unaware of the problems these transmissions have.
All the owners that i have talked to are horrified when i tell them that the box is sealed for life and that it will most likely fail at 150k ish.
They all seem to think LR servicing takes care of the box.
Come on LR and get with the programme and service these things at 60k intervals and stop damaging the brand.

Yes LEO i agree with your last comment

[Bigbjorn]

Given the sheer size and scope of the USA modification/hop up/ hot rod/street machine industry, I would be surprised if you can't find a number of shops already doing this trans. modification and rebuild.

Google auto trans shops & Los Angeles and see what arises.

[Laurie]

Gary
No I didn't ask Wade about a rebuild,the freight both ways plus the rebuild seemed like it would be too expensive.

Leo
A bit more digging and I have found this from fullfatrr !

The later L322 TD6s may have been fitted with the upgraded transmission ?
as there were actually 3 different LR part numbers for the Torque converter. The very first had one part number which was quickly superceded.
This part was then in turn changed for MY04, but has since been obsoleted and superceded back to the previous version, so there is now only one LR part available part for all TD6.
If this is right, LR was trying to avoid future warranty claims, by upgrading the box "good", BUT trying to avoid admiiting they had a problem in the first place "very wrong move against customers"

Just as a side note BMW won't repair these boxes, they instead willonly replace withan updated remanfactured unit; can be had O/S with 3+ yr waranty.

http://www.automotix.net/transmissions/bmw-x5-inventory.html


In Australia BMW X5 and Holden VE & VZ Commodores had the 5L40E auto so it is a local box also, so some local Auto Trans people would have to know how to beef it up for the local street racers.
The load rating was partly why GM only used the transmission for only 3 years!!! This auto was replaced by the 6L50/80/90E variants in nearly all local GM vehicles. MAYBE tip the five speed and put in a 6 speed if it FITS.

[Laurie]

Brian
Finding a shop is not a big problem,it's making sure their auto specs matches the Rangie specs eg transfer box mount etc. The BMW rebuilders might be a good source of info too. I'll have a look at this later .

[Homestar]

The LR, BMW, and Holden boxes are all slightly different, even inside, so most parts are not interchangeable.

As some of you know, I have been researching this because my trannie failed last week.

I looked at a few options from the US, but by the time I added freight, duties and taxes, this added over $1,200 to the cost, and this made it about the same price as getting one rebuilt locally.

Most of the recoes I rang up about only had a 12 month warranty, and when I asked what they replaced, they all pretty much said they replaced what was broken, so not a full rebuid.

It is now on its way to Sydney, to a place called 'Furious Perfomance'. They offer a 3 year warranty - can't remember but may have been 60,000km.

They rebuild the torque converters and pump themselves, and also use upgraded parts in the valve body from Sonnax in the USA. I will post the results when i'm back on the road.

Cost wise, they are very competitive. I have been quoted between $3,300 and $14,000 for a replacement, and these guys come in at $5,000 drive in drive out, but will be cheaper than this as I'm sending them my box. By the time I add labour and new trannie cooler and lines, around the $6,000 mark, which is expensive, but I end up with something that has the same warranty as a new box.

Time will tell I suppose,

Cheers - Gav.

[Laurie]

Gav
I'm sorry to hear of your woes, I also looked at that vehicle and thought it would be a safe buy; with the work done on it. I found another with similar mileage, BUT when I asked for a independent workshop to check it out espically the auto ,he hasn't got back to me yet.I sent him a e-mail last Monday but still no reply :mad:
Basically I will add in a auto rebuild to my price offer just to be safe. If they don't like it thats ok, no sale. My D2 is going fine so I can afford to wait for the right vehicle.
Your rebuild is it stock specs or have you opted for Heavy Duty specs ?

I also see some of the ZF's that are sealed for life in the D3's are also now starting to get similar problems, and the cost is as bad. Makes you wonder how they spec a trans for a vehicle model.The basic spec for the 5L40E is below the torque output of the Td6, go figure !
What ever rebuilder who can come up with a strong auto at a reasonable cost will do very well with all the Rangies and X5's that will be needing rebuilds in the future.

[33chinacars]

.The basic spec for the 5L40E is below the torque output of the Td6, go figure !
What ever rebuilder who can come up with a strong auto at a reasonable cost will do very well with all the Rangies and X5's that will be needing rebuilds in the future.

Yes that's correct Laurie R.R. GM 5L40E rated at 340Nm yet the TD6 output is 390Nm instock form. Had been in touch with one tuner who fitted large intercooler & tune for 540Nm. But he later remove this as the gearbox couldn't handle the power.

Spoke with an autotrans repairer yesterday who said the service live of the oil in GMH Commodore 5L40E was 400,000 km . To him a JOKE. Yes the box is a little bit different to whats in our R.R. but still should be serviced.

As posted elsewhere there are a couple of good treads on RangeRover.net regarding the 5L40E


Gary

[Bigbjorn]

If RR's using this transmission were sold in the USA then there is sure to be someone doing durability or performance mods to them, probably any number of shops. The yanks would be cheaper than virtually anyone else. Perhaps buy a Cadillac trans from a wrecker and have it delivered to a trans. shop for the work.

You could try emailing these guys for a source. They may not be doing this themselves but are quite likely to know who is.

Bob Bendtsen at Bendtsen's Transmissions, Ham Lake, Minneapolis, bbendtsen@aol.com

Paul Cangialosi, support@5speeds.com. They are down in Florida and make new Muncie trans. amongst many other achievements.

Phil Reilly, Phil Reilly Coy. San Francisco, p_reilly@pacbell.net, is another good source.

Jim Himmelsbach, Zakira's Garage, Cincinatti, jim@zakiras.com, could be worth an e-mail.


These guys are absolute founts of knowledge. They are professional restorers, modifiers, preparers.

[PhilipA]

If anyone has experience in the US and may know sources, this bloke will.

Land Rover repairs and service (http://www.robisonservice.com/servicedep/rover_dept.asp)

Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

We suggest changing the "permanent" transmission fluid at 60,000 miles. No matter how good the fluid is, it will not last forever, and it carries an ever-increasing load of wear particles until it is flushed out. The ZF transmission has proven to be a weak point in these heavy trucks. It is important to use the correct blue BMW coolant in these engines. If no Land Rover coolant is available coolant can be bought from any BMW dealer.


It occurs to me that no TD6 diesels were sold in the USA and the V8 had a ZF.Regards Philip A

[Laurie]

Philip
Thats correct, but they sold the BMW X5 Diesel with the same gearbox ! Although it looks like BMW had updated versions of the box, going by the different part numbers. And as stated above they would replace not rebuild.

[Laurie]

From left field

Why can’t the ZF 5HP24 be modified for the diesel ? There are plenty of these autos around being installed in RR V8,bmw,Jaguar and Audi
What would need modifying ?
Bellhousing modified or replaced (ZF’s used on later Td6 X5’s)
Lowering the stall speed of the converter ?
Re-program ECU ?

This auto was beefed up in the 5HP24A version for Audi C5 RS6 Quattro where the V8 put out 331 kilowatts (450 PS; 444 bhp) at 5,700 to 6,400 rpm, and generated 560 newton metres (413 ft•lbf) of torque.

With gear ratios below I can’t see a problem with a slightly lower first, lower reverse and a slightly taller O/D


Gear Ratios 1 2 3 4 5 R


GM 5L40/50E 3.42 2.21 1.60 1.00 0.75 3.02
ZF 5HP24 3.57 2.20 1.51 1.00 0.80 4.10
ZF 5HP24A 3.57 2.20 1.51 1.00 0.80 4.10

Interested to hear any opinions or ideas.
Laurie

[Laurie]

Any one have any ideas on any alternate gearbox ?

Laurie

[Homestar]

I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibility, I think it is more a matter of someone biting the bullet and doing it. Unfortunately, I don't have the experience or knowledge to try something like this. I am suprised that no one has tried a conversion of some description though. I think it is just a matter of time before someone has a crack, as more and more of these vehicles are getting to the point where thier trannies will fail. Once I am back on the road, I should have a few years to think about this, but as I plan to keep mine a long time, maybe By the next time mine fails, someone will have come up with something.

What are the dimesions of the ZF, and are the transfer cases the same on the V8's?

I can't see why it couldn't be done....

[RR46]

G,Day Guys

The auto (5L80e) was the main deal breaker for me so I decided to go with a supercharged L322 and not the TD6.

A mate owns a well known auto workshop (specialising in 4WDs and auto mods) in the SE suburbs of Melbourne and as I was keen on a TD6 and knew about the auto being the week link I asked the same question, when the auto goes bang why can we fit the ZF 6 speed ?

His advice was it wouldn't make more economic sense and would be cheaper to just buy a supercharged L322 with the 6 speed ZF in it (he also made the comment I don't hang onto my cars long enough to even think of such a conversion LOL).

From what was put to me, with a conversion like that most of the problems are computer related. Anything is possible but how much money do you want to throw at it and time sorting it out ???.

I figured for the money it would cost for the conversion, it would more than offset the extra thirst of the S/C V8 and make more economic sense short and long term.

On another note the best fuel consumption I have got out of it around town is 15ltr per 100kms which I dint think was to bad considering it has a 297KW V8. Mind you if you use a lot of right foot (which isn't hard, I love the power) it loves a drink. I know you blokes with TD6 getting your 8ltrs per 100kms will be laughing at fuel figures like that.

Cheers

[Homestar]

On another note the best fuel consumption I have got out of it around town is 15ltr per 100kms which I dint think was to bad considering it has a 297KW V8. Mind you if you use a lot of right foot (which isn't hard, I love the power) it loves a drink. I know you blokes with TD6 getting your 8ltrs per 100kms will be laughing at fuel figures like that.

Cheers

There's the rub. You summed it up with that last paragraph. I went for the TD6 because of the fuel economy, and I knew the trannie may be an issue.

Based on your 'best' around town figures, and that I will do about 25,000km a year, at say an average of 10/100, you would be using 3,750 litres of fuel, to my 2,500 ltrs. At todays prices, that's about $1,750 a year. If I run mine for 10 years, that's over $17K in less in fuel! To me, even if I use a couple of extra trannies, or pay to get a ZF to fit, I still think I would be miles in front financially at the end, and I haven't even mentioned how much longer a well maintained diesel will last compared to a petrol...

I know the V8 trannie will cause less issues, but I just couldn't afford to run one... more- The old 3.5 in my Classic sure knows how to drink:p, but that's why it's only my weekend toy.

Cheers - Gav

[RR46]

I only hang onto my cars for 4 years then move them on, so economically the numbers didn't stack up and it doesn't do a lot of kms a year so fuel isn't to bad.

My mate that owns the auto shop had also mentioned with what I was doing with the RR (towing a big boat 2.5T) I would of had more problems with the auto than someone who didn't tow that sort of weight hence going with the S/C V8.

Hope all goes well with yours Gav and you get it back on the road soon.

Cheers

Gavin

[Homestar]

Yeah, fair enough, that makes sense. I generally keep my cars until they are ready for the scrap heap. Last car I bought before this was a VN commodore that was 4 years old. Only just sold it for parts after 18 years and 400kkm.

[Bigbjorn]

What about importing a rear drive Cadillac engine and trans and wiring, computers, etc.to go into your RR? The Northstar V8 is rated at 292 hp, and the 2011 V6 at 302 hp. The V6 uses a 6L90 transmission. Some Cadillacs are 4wd so there may be a transfer case attached or the ability to attach a LT230.

[romar]

I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibility, I think it is more a matter of someone biting the bullet and doing it. Unfortunately, I don't have the experience or knowledge to try something like this. I am suprised that no one has tried a conversion of some description though. I think it is just a matter of time before someone has a crack, as more and more of these vehicles are getting to the point where thier trannies will fail. Once I am back on the road, I should have a few years to think about this, but as I plan to keep mine a long time, maybe By the next time mine fails, someone will have come up with something.

What are the dimesions of the ZF, and are the transfer cases the same on the V8's?

I can't see why it couldn't be done....

Hi Gav, can you please email me tonight about your transmission rebuild I am planning on going from home (batemans bay) to Sydney to see Furious Performance about my transmission thanks Roger.

[Homestar]

Hi Gav, can you please email me tonight about your transmission rebuild I am planning on going from home (batemans bay) to Sydney to see Furious Performance about my transmission thanks Roger.

Hi Roger, sorry fot the late reply - I haven't checked this forum out for a few days - I've been concentrating on the Classic this last week. Let us know if you got in touch with Rhys at all, and let me know what specific info you wanted about Furious.

Cheers - Gav