R380 oil cooler 110 tdi

[uninformed]

hey all,

looking at doing a oil cooler for my R380. I have the T/stat housing for it. (I hope its the right one??) I know there is a blanking plate to remove and replace with this housing.....is this located directly above the mount on the left hand side? what is the best way to get to it? remove mount?

Regarding the cooler. I've looked at the Ashcroft one and at guess it would be about 300mmx110mm. Seeing as PWR are just down the road it would be the choice as Im sure they will have something to suit my needs. Mounting: the ovbious place would be infront of the rad etc, BUT as I have a A/C condenser and a winch mounted infront of all that, air flow is at a minimum to the engine/intercooler as it is. And as I tow daily, hence the R380 cooler going, in I need another option? So far I have thought about inside the right hand gaurd just behind the headlight....or as I have a truck cab 110, with alot of room and airspace, I was thinking fixing to the back of the cab but using a larger cooler as there wont be alot of air flow...say 280x250x19 PWR?

any thoughts on mounting?

cheers
Serg

[farmport]

I am just completing oil cooler installation on R380 on 03 extreme. I have just overhauled gearbox as it developed small whine in 5th. there was nothing obvious on disassembly and I suspect excessive end float on input/mainshaft assembly from new as the culprit as 4th gear synchro and engagement teeth were worn unevenly and this is where the two shafts meet with a spigot bearing. Excessive play will allow slight misalignment at this point.
I have chosen to install cooler as my power output is way over standard.
I picked up a cooler from Aliexpress for $61 with 1/2 inch fittings. I also purchased hose and fittings to go from the gearbox to the cooler for $240.00. This included modification of the original silly "cooling pipe" to take hose fittings. I moved the A/C condenser fan as far to the drivers side as possible and mounted the oil cooler to the condenser. It just clears the grille but I have already moved the condenser forward 25mm to accommodate a monster intercooler so clearances shouldn't normally be a problem.
I am using Redline Superlight Shockproof oil.
One thing to be really careful of is the oil capacity. I filled the gearbox to the correct level first and then was surprised to realise the calculated capacity of the oil lines is 560cc, so I introduced this much oil directly into them.
To ensure no drain back of cooler oil the connections face upwards and I also filled the cooler from one side and let the level balance as oil found its way through the cooling galleries by gravity. Oil capacity is now 3.6litres all up.

[uninformed]

Thanks Farmport,

My situation up front is: I have no fan as I had to remove it to get my winch nice and close, but I also fitted a thicker A/C condenser when it needed repacing....apart from the room, knowing how my system works and how border line the cooling and intercooling is running the 2.8tgv and towing Im not going to put the cooler up front. Im pretty much going to put it behind the cab...lots of room there and plenty or air space...My thinking is that even without air being forced over it there will be air flow and even little air flow the radiator will have to have a certain amount of heat disapation that does not exsist at this point as there is no cooler....plus the added oil will help. Cooler size im looking at will be 280x250x19mm PWR and will run 1/2 hose 2 and from.

[justinc]

Just make sure it isn't mounted too high, the original cooler for manual transmissions is almost on the same level as the middle line of the trans. I wouldn't think The pump is really very good at pumping a weight of fluid uphill. It'll do it but at a reduced rate.

Like you said, using a large enough cooler you wouldn't necessarily require lots of airflow to have adequate heat exchange.

JC

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You could always omit the cooler element and use the chassis as a heat sink. Just run metal cooler pipes in close contact with the chassis side rails, avoiding areas that get hot from the exhaust etc. The longer the pipe is in contact with the chassis the more heat is exchanged.

Works best in the cooler latitudes.

[uninformed]

to me running the pipes is really just a band aid and wouldnt do much....if going to the effort, a radiator type cooler will disapate alot more heat than pipes, given the same air flow..

JC, I spoke to someone in he know an he thinks the pump actually has a fair bit of grunt to it...I was told that height wouldnt be a problem (not being silly and mounting it at roof level of course) I was also advised to use good quality Hyd hose with a minium of 1/2 or 12mm dia to handle the flow.

hopefuly mounting it at the back of the cab, on the angled part, so just above the chassis rails , will keep it efficent and the hose length to a min.

My first priority is to sort out the T/stat housing and make sure it will bolt up etc. It has 2 O rings and I see where they go, does it require any sealant or gasket also? Any thoughts on pulling the T/stat out of the housing and running it without it....how reliable are they? are they also a pressure relief valve?

mounting the cooler and hose fitting should be fairly straight forward...

cheers,
Serg

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You do know that Discos with R380 in Europe didn't have an oil cooler and some of the ones sold in Au only have exactly what I am describing. The experts will tell you which models.

Yes the radiator/element type are more efficient, some of that only because of the additional fluid capacity, but you have been suggesting a lack of room I suggested the heat sink as an option.

[uninformed]

You do know that Discos with R380 in Europe didn't have an oil cooler and some of the ones sold in Au only have exactly what I am describing. The experts will tell you which models.

Yes the radiator/element type are more efficient, some of that only because of the additional fluid capacity, but you have been suggesting a lack of room I suggested the heat sink as an option.

yep and some of those Europene countries would have preffered to have some cooling on the R380...Please dont confuse LR doing something with good engineering practice..as this is hit and miss for them. Given the same fluid capacity a radiator will be more effiecent than pipe/tube by a fair margin.

[justinc]

to me running the pipes is really just a band aid and wouldnt do much....if going to the effort, a radiator type cooler will disapate alot more heat than pipes, given the same air flow..

JC, I spoke to someone in he know an he thinks the pump actually has a fair bit of grunt to it...I was told that height wouldnt be a problem (not being silly and mounting it at roof level of course) I was also advised to use good quality Hyd hose with a minium of 1/2 or 12mm dia to handle the flow.

hopefuly mounting it at the back of the cab, on the angled part, so just above the chassis rails , will keep it efficent and the hose length to a min.

My first priority is to sort out the T/stat housing and make sure it will bolt up etc. It has 2 O rings and I see where they go, does it require any sealant or gasket also? Any thoughts on pulling the T/stat out of the housing and running it without it....how reliable are they? are they also a pressure relief valve?

mounting the cooler and hose fitting should be fairly straight forward...

cheers,
Serg

Hey Serg thanks for that info about the pump, they don't look very good at pumping a volume of fluid over distance against a head of pressure but thats good to hear. I must say I haven't actually TESTED one, it was just an observation with regards to its size, design and primary purpose, which is lubrication, not cooling a volume of oil. I would leave the thermostat in there, AFAIK they should be very reliable. Best thing to do also is to fit a temp gauge sender in the outlet line to cooler, just for monitoring as it would be highly unlikely you will see any dangerous temperatures...
I have never had to use sealants the Orings are plenty enough. Have had more issues with cooler lines working loose and leaking where they screw into the ally housing than anything else:( They can't be overtightened or they WILL split the case of the adapter, they are an Oringed low torque joint but still be careful not to be too 'gentle' doing them up. If they come loose they WILL liberate all of the oil in a very short period of time:mad:

JC

[uninformed]

Thanks JC,

I will post pics in this thread when I get it all together....dont hold your breath for a quick finish hahaha.

I only have the 2 O rings for the T/stat housing to gearbox...should there be O rings for the 2 pipe fittings that screw into the T/stat housing? would thread tape or loctite master sealant etc be any good on the thread of the pipe fittings?

Serg

[justinc]

Definately need the 2 pipe Orings, they are the same size as the engine oil cooler line ones for the Tdi.

JC

[farmport]

I have mounted my oil cooler on the radiator 250mm x 150mm x 45mm. Took the car for a run yesterday for 60km and the transmission now hardly gets warm to touch. (unlike the transfer case) One of the things I noticed while installing is that the cooling pipes are always open to the oil pump so I suspect that the thermostat must just close a gallery between the oil pump ports so oil can ONLY go through the cooler when things get hot. I think I proved the point this morning when I took it for a 20km light run to the shops and felt the cooler pipes when I got home. they were warm to touch (no more than 50degC) and the same approximate temp as the tranny, so it appears there is always a certain amount of oil going through the cooler. This makes sense as it would help prevent airlocks.
As far as the oil pump capacity is concerned I doubt there will be a problem with head (say 600mm) as it is a gerotor design and should handle "reasonable" pressure. Since its ports are quite small half inch pipe will not cause any restriction, even over the 5.5metres of line I have used to get to the front of the car and back.
cheers all.

[uninformed]

whats the advantages or differences in the thickness of a cooler. Farmport's is 45mm and the one im looking at is 19mm. Would one be better in a situation such as what I want that has less air flow than in the front of the truck???

[uninformed]

Farmport, do you have any idea of the PSI that the pump will run and therefore the cooler need be able to handle

[slug_burner]

In a thick cooler the back of the cooler is subjected to preheated air that has been heated by the front of the cooler, therefore the rate at which you can transfer energy is reduced as the air travels through the cooler. If the area that you can use for the cooler is limited then thickness will help but you will not get as good a bang for the amount of material used to make the cooler, after all multiple core radiators do provide additonal cooling. You will get better efficiency if you can get the same volume of cooler in a thinner wider package.

In a confined space without forced air it probably wont make a difference and the volume and material that constrains the confined space will be more important as you will have to transfer the heat via the surface of the constraining volume.

Purely opinion as I have limited experience and training in heat transfer.

[farmport]

There are 2 common types of oil/transmission cooler. The least expensive is the one with a thin profile and a single round pipe that goes back and forth through the cooling fins. The other, like I have used, has a manifold at each end and a series of flat cooling tubes, full thickness of the cooler, running between the manifolds. Because these tubes are flat/thin it is necessary for them to be wide to allow sufficient oil flow. These are the most efficient as there is much more oil contact to cooling surface than the round pipe design. They also enable much better cooling capacity with minimum length and height.
For the R380 I don't think it matters much as it is a manual transmission and doesn't suffer the heat production of an auto from torque converter slippage so anything will help a lot and whatever fits in the space available will help a lot so long as there is SOME airflow.
As far as pressure is concerned there doesn't appear to be a pressure relief valve and I can't find an exploded view of the adapter plate anywhere to read the circuit.
The oil pump suction pipe and ports in the gearbox extension housing are about 6mm in diameter so pressure buildup through excessive flow through a cooler is unlikely so long as the cooler has at least 3/8" ports(I used 1/2")
So in terms of cooler and hoses/fittings used if you treat the installation as if it was an auxiliary auto box cooler you Should be fine. My circuit is rated at 200psi which I am sure is massive overkill.

[uninformed]

Thanks Farmport,
I am looking at the PWR range and was under the impression they made fairly good stuff. What brand did you use and any you would recommend? Im now looking at PWR engine oil cooler range as they are 37mm thick and have 1/2 inch fittings available as apposed to the 19mm thick ones which have a max of 10mm....

cheers,
Serg

[farmport]

I am sure PWR are a good cooler and one of those would be fine. I would go with the one you mentioned as it will be fairly robust with the larger fittings. I brought a cooler in from China so it doesn't have a specific brand. Bit of a risk but I am very impressed with the quality. Most brand name stuff is made in China these days anyway.

Cheers

[uninformed]

Definately need the 2 pipe Orings, they are the same size as the engine oil cooler line ones for the Tdi.

JC

JC, I was speaking to a hyd guy today and he seemed to think it was a non-O ring fitting, ie metal to metal???

so where does the Oring go, seal against?

when you say they are the same as the oil cooler line (tdi) do you mean the ones that go in the T/Stat housing to gearbox?

on another note, the cooler im fitting has AN-10 or AN-12 fittings. I believe they are Army-Navy or Air force-Navy design, which has the same 37° taper as JIC hyd fittings. Im hoping I can use JIC hyd fittings to it which will work with the Hyd/oil hose I want to use....

cheers,
Serg

[justinc]

JC, I was speaking to a hyd guy today and he seemed to think it was a non-O ring fitting, ie metal to metal???

so where does the Oring go, seal against?

when you say they are the same as the oil cooler line (tdi) do you mean the ones that go in the T/Stat housing to gearbox?

on another note, the cooler im fitting has AN-10 or AN-12 fittings. I believe they are Army-Navy or Air force-Navy design, which has the same 37° taper as JIC hyd fittings. Im hoping I can use JIC hyd fittings to it which will work with the Hyd/oil hose I want to use....

cheers,
Serg


Hi Serg,

The trans oil cooler lines are O ringed into the adapter housing on the side of the ext housing, there is a step machined into the port to 'crush' the oring against, and a step on the cooler line to seat the other side of the oring. these are known as low torque fittings, and were introduced into all of the LR product range coolers (Engine, auto and manual trans) after about 1994.
The metal on metal fittings he is talking about are probably the early D1 and RRC, and early (200) tdi. these were a ball shape on the end of the line after the tube nut, and a seat 'cup' on the fitting which was screwed into the housing or cooler. The stupidest thing i have noticed recently is that the D2 etc has gone away from a screw in fitting ' adapter' between the line and the trans ally housing, so that IF you lunch the thread, its curtains for the housing, not just the fitting. More penny pinching:mad:

The Orings from the end of the cooler LINE to the fitting ON the adapter / thermostat housing are the same as Tdi engine oil cooler line ones. In fact the tube nuts are the same thread and shape as the trans cooler line tube nuts.

JC

[uninformed]

Thanks JC,

I think there has been some confusion...mostly on my behalf. While my truck is a 1998 300tdi, the housing was sourced from a wrecker. attached are pics of the ports on the housing for the In and out lines and the end of one of the lines/fittings that came with it.

hopefuly this will shed some light.

[uninformed]

ok some more questions if this thread hasnt died...............

say I set up the cooler on the back of my cab, with the in and out ports facing down towards the ground. the bottom of the cooler is approx bottom of cab. Now with this and the oil lines conected to the T/stat housing, how do I go about an oil change on the gearbox??

my thoughts are that it wont "self" fill just by introducing oil into the gearbox. And as the filler point would be well below the top of the cooler I cant just add etxra to the gearbox....

Farmport, did you mount your cooler vetically, so one of the ports is on the top, to one side of your cooler?

with the cooler mounted as in where I want to, will the oil drain back into the gearbox when not pumping and therefore over fill the box AND create an air pocket?

just dont want to fubar anything by trying to help it!

[ashtrans]

Hi Serg,

there are 2 types of pipe fitting to the housing,

early 1/2 BSP (which you have) with a taper type seal,

and the later M20 x 1.5 thread which has an O ring and funny crimp on the pipe

we use the later thread and just screw on a M20 x 1.5 push lock fitting with a 'dowty' washer to seal,

oil will only flow when the thermostat is up to temp and open, you are right to question the oil level, I don't have an answer,

Dave

[uninformed]

Thanks Dave,

atleast Im right with the fittings now.....................

Re the oil, does the T/stat, when closed block both pressure and return lines of the cooling? ie if it only blocks the pressure, would it back fill through the return?

I guess if not, its a matter of filling the gearbox, running for 10mins and checking the level and toping up as the Tstat cracks and opens...a bit painfull, But I cant see another way????

farmport, how did you come to the conclusion that there is some oil flow regardless of T/stat postion? are you able to fill your system externaly and not only through the gearbox???

cheers,
Serg

[rick130]

Serg, I just pulled mine apart, and farmport is right, when the t/stat is 'closed' the flow is through the transfer tube from the bottom to top port that go to and from the 'box, and the two cooler ports remain open (but flow will follow the path of least resistance)

As the waxstat starts to extend with increasing temp it closes the port between the top and bottom ports, forcing the flow through the cooler ports.

Bottom line is that as soon as you release the clutch and the pump starts pumping all circuits will be filled.

[rick130]

Hi Serg,

there are 2 types of pipe fitting to the housing,

early 1/2 BSP (which you have) with a taper type seal,

and the later M20 x 1.5 thread which has an O ring and funny crimp on the pipe

we use the later thread and just screw on a M20 x 1.5 push lock fitting with a 'dowty' washer to seal,

oil will only flow when the thermostat is up to temp and open, you are right to question the oil level, I don't have an answer,

Dave

Cheers Dave, that answers the difference in fittings.

[uninformed]

Thanks Rick,

I will confirm this when I hook the system up and fill the gearbox. I will run the engine with the car in netural, say for 5 mins max, and check levels....

I recieved my cooler today, so hopefully next weekend I will clear the Hyd winch stuff out the way and set about measuring up some brackets. Hyd winch stuff will be replaced back, all be it moved to allow cooler localation. i still need to sort fittings and hose, but I figure fit the to ends of the puzzle and the middle will be what it has to be.

cheers,
Serg

[uninformed]

forgot to ask, as my T/stat housing is 2nd hand, should I be checking the operation of the T/stat...if so, how?

[rick130]

Undo the circlip, the cover and t/stat should pop out as there's a long spring behind them.
If it doesn't, hit the housing against some hardwood to dislodge the cover (the O ring may hold it in) and it should come out.

Put some pure water in a pot on the stove, rig up a wire support, place the t/stat in the support cradle along with a t/couple/thermometer and heat the bugger up.

They are rated to start to open at 74* so you should see the pushrod start to move around that temp.

Haven't tested mine (or I mightv'e a long time ago ? ) but a water t/stat usually fully opens over about 15*.

[rick130]

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/img0312no.jpg/http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6318/img0312no.jpg

and the metric hose fitting

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/9107/img0315zny.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/img0315zny.jpg/