URGENT HELP NEEDED FOR LR90 on Route

[juddy]

Just posting up this for my friends, who are in and out of comms, hope some one can help...

This is a urgent question - sorry in advance. I am currently in
Goodwindi having travelled from Brisbane this morning in my 90 (2.5D).
I am loaded up with gear and I noticed that there was a large amount
of oil coming out of my air filter when I stopped for fuel at
Goodwindi, after travelling 400km. I also not the following symptoms:

Engine oil level still normal
Oil being thrown out the oil breather on the cam cover when revved
Oil being thrown out the dipstick when revved

Other noticeable, and possibly related issues:

Heavy fuel consumption 80L = 400km (we are loaded up here and it was
pretty hilly on the way out).
Loss of speed and power on flats (possible due to oil filter clogged with oil).

Now, I am thinking too things:

Either

A - slightly over filled with oil and being thrown out the breathers

OR

B Worn rings = excessive blow back and throwing out oil of breathers.

OR

C - cracked piston rings

I had driven approximately 350km around Brisbane and the gold coast
and not had any issues, but think that the journey out of Brisbane
(with load - 400kg) may have put excessive stress on the engine.

I would really appreciate your thoughts ASAP.

I am going to be spending the night in Goodwindi and getting a
compression test in the morning. Many many thanks in advance,

If you are in the area you can call on:


0469946352 or 0438960878

Cheers again,

James

[slug_burner]

B or C for my money. If worn will have low compression across all pots if broken rings likely to be one or two or more. If worn would have been coming for a while and you will have seen signs before. More likely broken rings from overheating.

[RobHay]

PCV valve could be clogged too, pressurising the sump and forcing oil out

[101RRS]

Fuel getting into the sump - hence increase in fuel consumption, oil level Ok but oil still getting out due to sump with fuel in it.

Garry

[Veryan]

Well, this is not the best way to start a blog on my attempted trans Australian adventure - "Help, my engine has appeared to have blown up". But I can't change that now!

So I have made it 400km west of my start point in Brisbane to Goondiwindi, where the aforementioned has occurred:

- half a pint of oil ****ing out of my air filter onto the garage forecourt.

Further inspection revealed rather significant blow back on from the engine breather and oil being ejected from the dip stick much in the fashion of a Venusian fountain :( All pointing to over pressurisation of the crankcase.

Initial thoughts were that maybe I'd put slightly too much oil in to begin with, but further diagnostic tests and the volume of oil make this unlikely. Mr Blknight has given me a few more, to asses whether or not it is a generally worn engine or one of the piston/compression rings has let(ting) go....tomorrow morning will tell.

I would like to say this has been the first bit of bad luck of the journey so far, but it seems to be a continuation of a theme. Dealing with Queensland Transport made the process of import look like a piece of cake. 6 days, 8 piece of paper a L01 plate and few dodgy dudes later (one even insisting I fit side intrusion bars on my doors...made of, riveted in rolled hollow sections.....!! I finally got to say "mmmm...I love the smell of freshly pressed tin in the morning...it...*sniff* *sniff*......smells like...VICTORY!" :) Only to have my hopes dashed 400km later. :mad:

So here I am in a cheap motel, 150km from the planned camp with a sick 90.
So far I would like to say a big thankyou to Juddy and Gill for letting me stay at theres and fit out the 90. You guys are great. Blknight for giving me advice and tips. Thankyou. And thanks in advance to anyone else who comments.


Some pictures so far:

Picking it up at the port, Jerry and his Son helped me get a tow start due to a flat battery (I guess 2 months in a container does that!)

39308

Full packed

39304

Fitting out the truck, with new plates and Co -Driver prior to set off.

39305

Heading up towards Warwick. Slow climb up, but that was expected. Trouble seemed to begin after Warwick - Loss of power. I suspected that what ever has let go did so within 100km from Goondiwindi.

39306

Crappy shot in the fading light off the oil in the air filter. Paper element is soaked in the stuff.

39307

Now I am not sure, but does anyone know where I might be able to get a set of 2.5D piston rings from.....in Australia? And if any of the 2.25D rings fit, or 2.5TD for that matter?

If anyone has any other suggestions to help get me out of this little spot of bother, you would be make very happy. :) I have pretty much all the tools to strip the engine - bar maybe a set of compression tools for piston rings...but I would appear to be in major-ish truck stop so I dont think they would be too hard to come by.

[isuzurover]

Sorry to hear of your problems.

All 2.25 and 2.5 pistons are the same diameter (OEM), so rings should fit between them, however there are of course STD and anything up to 0.040" oversize (0.08" for 2.25s). I have a set of new 0.040" 2.25D rings in the shed if they are any help, but I'm sure you can get something closer.

Broken rings are common on 2.25s IME.

[Blknight.aus]

you dont NEED a ring compressor to get the pistons in with new rings on em..

you can iprovise them with a tin can and a hose clamp or do it like I do push them down then squeeze the ring in with your thumbnails.

[Veryan]

Thanks Ben. I have a plate on the engine that tells me that I have STD rings, and 10 Thou oversize mains, STD big ends. That is all. I guess it depends on how bad things turn out to be tomorrow what happens next. Not sure yet what size I would need if that turns out to be the route I am to take.

[Veryan]

you dont NEED a ring compressor to get the pistons in with new rings on em..

you can iprovise them with a tin can and a hose clamp or do it like I do push them down then squeeze the ring in with your thumbnails.

AH ha! We must have had the same thought! I have plenty of baked bean cans and a few jubilee clips floating about ;)

[isuzurover]

Thanks Ben. I have a plate on the engine that tells me that I have STD rings, and 10 Thou oversize mains, STD big ends. That is all. I guess it depends on how bad things turn out to be tomorrow what happens next. Not sure yet what size I would need if that turns out to be the route I am to take.

Mains would be 10 though UNDERsize, not over.

Have you tried removing the oil filler and/or rocker cover breather and running the motor? If the rings are worn or broken you will get a steady flow of blowby gases.

[lardy]

Well, this is not the best way to start a blog on my attempted trans Australian adventure - "Help, my engine has appeared to have blown up". But I can't change that now!

So I have made it 400km west of my start point in Brisbane to Goondiwindi, where the aforementioned has occurred:

- half a pint of oil ****ing out of my air filter onto the garage forecourt.

Further inspection revealed rather significant blow back on from the engine breather and oil being ejected from the dip stick much in the fashion of a Venusian fountain :( All pointing to over pressurisation of the crankcase.

Initial thoughts were that maybe I'd put slightly too much oil in to begin with, but further diagnostic tests and the volume of oil make this unlikely. Mr Blknight has given me a few more, to asses whether or not it is a generally worn engine or one of the piston/compression rings has let(ting) go....tomorrow morning will tell.

I would like to say this has been the first bit of bad luck of the journey so far, but it seems to be a continuation of a theme. Dealing with Queensland Transport made the process of import look like a piece of cake. 6 days, 8 piece of paper a L01 plate and few dodgy dudes later (one even insisting I fit side intrusion bars on my doors...made of, riveted in rolled hollow sections.....!! I finally got to say "mmmm...I love the smell of freshly pressed tin in the morning...it...*sniff* *sniff*......smells like...VICTORY!" :) Only to have my hopes dashed 400km later. :mad:

So here I am in a cheap motel, 150km from the planned camp with a sick 90.
So far I would like to say a big thankyou to Juddy and Gill for letting me stay at theres and fit out the 90. You guys are great. Blknight for giving me advice and tips. Thankyou. And thanks in advance to anyone else who comments.


Some pictures so far:

Picking it up at the port, Jerry and his Son helped me get a tow start due to a flat battery (I guess 2 months in a container does that!)

39308

Full packed

39304

Fitting out the truck, with new plates and Co -Driver prior to set off.

39305

Heading up towards Warwick. Slow climb up, but that was expected. Trouble seemed to begin after Warwick - Loss of power. I suspected that what ever has let go did so within 100km from Goondiwindi.

39306

Crappy shot in the fading light off the oil in the air filter. Paper element is soaked in the stuff.

39307

Now I am not sure, but does anyone know where I might be able to get a set of 2.5D piston rings from.....in Australia? And if any of the 2.25D rings fit, or 2.5TD for that matter?

If anyone has any other suggestions to help get me out of this little spot of bother, you would be make very happy. :) I have pretty much all the tools to strip the engine - bar maybe a set of compression tools for piston rings...but I would appear to be in major-ish truck stop so I dont think they would be too hard to come by.

mate speak to paul at derbyshire land rover services they should be cheap enough to air freight don't know exactly the cost but I just got off the phone to Paul's brother he said give him a buzz and they will see what speedy resoloution they can do for you obviously as it's a fast service you are after it will probably cost more hope this helps DLS:+441629842361

[lardy]

Well, this is not the best way to start a blog on my attempted trans Australian adventure - "Help, my engine has appeared to have blown up". But I can't change that now!

So I have made it 400km west of my start point in Brisbane to Goondiwindi, where the aforementioned has occurred:

- half a pint of oil ****ing out of my air filter onto the garage forecourt.

Further inspection revealed rather significant blow back on from the engine breather and oil being ejected from the dip stick much in the fashion of a Venusian fountain :( All pointing to over pressurisation of the crankcase.

Initial thoughts were that maybe I'd put slightly too much oil in to begin with, but further diagnostic tests and the volume of oil make this unlikely. Mr Blknight has given me a few more, to asses whether or not it is a generally worn engine or one of the piston/compression rings has let(ting) go....tomorrow morning will tell.

I would like to say this has been the first bit of bad luck of the journey so far, but it seems to be a continuation of a theme. Dealing with Queensland Transport made the process of import look like a piece of cake. 6 days, 8 piece of paper a L01 plate and few dodgy dudes later (one even insisting I fit side intrusion bars on my doors...made of, riveted in rolled hollow sections.....!! I finally got to say "mmmm...I love the smell of freshly pressed tin in the morning...it...*sniff* *sniff*......smells like...VICTORY!" :) Only to have my hopes dashed 400km later. :mad:

So here I am in a cheap motel, 150km from the planned camp with a sick 90.
So far I would like to say a big thankyou to Juddy and Gill for letting me stay at theres and fit out the 90. You guys are great. Blknight for giving me advice and tips. Thankyou. And thanks in advance to anyone else who comments.


Some pictures so far:

Picking it up at the port, Jerry and his Son helped me get a tow start due to a flat battery (I guess 2 months in a container does that!)

39308

Full packed

39304

Fitting out the truck, with new plates and Co -Driver prior to set off.

39305

Heading up towards Warwick. Slow climb up, but that was expected. Trouble seemed to begin after Warwick - Loss of power. I suspected that what ever has let go did so within 100km from Goondiwindi.

39306

Crappy shot in the fading light off the oil in the air filter. Paper element is soaked in the stuff.

39307

Now I am not sure, but does anyone know where I might be able to get a set of 2.5D piston rings from.....in Australia? And if any of the 2.25D rings fit, or 2.5TD for that matter?

If anyone has any other suggestions to help get me out of this little spot of bother, you would be make very happy. :) I have pretty much all the tools to strip the engine - bar maybe a set of compression tools for piston rings...but I would appear to be in major-ish truck stop so I dont think they would be too hard to come by.

mate speak to paul at derbyshire land rover services they should be cheap enough to air freight don't know exactly the cost but I just got off the phone to Paul's brother he said give him a buzz and they will see what speedy resoloution they can do for you obviously as it's a fast service you are after it will probably cost more hope this helps DLS:+441629842361

[lardy]

Juddy I just got off the blower to my mates brother at DLS derbyshire landrover services, I usually deal with Paul but he wasn't in I explained your mate is looking for a piston rings set and maybe gaskets and could they air frieght the parts too you pronto, he thinks they can help just get your mate to write down what he needs exactly, although I did tell them the symptoms they are asking the mechanics in the workshop to try and tie down the likely canidate ring +441629842361 cheers andy

[Veryan]

Hi All,

Update:

We have pulled out the glow plugs and rotated the engine until #1 was TDC and then rotated a further 5 times until it was at the bottom of the compression stroke, just before injection of fuel. Blew air in the glow plug hole and watched for any oil being ejected from the dip stick or rockers. None. Went through all the pistons in firing order but could not establish which one might be loosing compression.

The guy at the workshop did not have the fitting to fit in the injector or glow plug hole for a proper test. We have tried a total of 3 diesel mechanics and none really want a bar of it.

We are currently camped up and established a bush camp and possible workshop. We are thinking of trying a few more fitters, before pulling of the head and having a look inside.

Everything still looks towards a bust ring of some sort - heaps of oil spewing out the air filter, dipstick and with the rocker cover off, lots of oil coming up the push rods/valves (which is then going into the air filter), all pointing to over pressurisation of the crank case.

I guess that a set of standard rings and a couple of head gaskets would be in order. Pity, I have a spare 2.5D in Perth and a 2.25 in Kalgoorlie.

In an emergency, would a 2.25D head gasket fit on a 2.5D?

[Veryan]

Hi All,

Update:

We have pulled out the glow plugs and rotated the engine until #1 was TDC and then rotated a further 5 times until it was at the bottom of the compression stroke, just before injection of fuel. Blew air in the glow plug hole and watched for any oil being ejected from the dip stick or rockers. None. Went through all the pistons in firing order but could not establish which one might be loosing compression.

The guy at the workshop did not have the fitting to fit in the injector or glow plug hole for a proper test. We have tried a total of 3 diesel mechanics and none really want a bar of it.

We are currently camped up and established a bush camp and possible workshop. We are thinking of trying a few more fitters, before pulling of the head and having a look inside.

Everything still looks towards a bust ring of some sort - heaps of oil spewing out the air filter, dipstick and with the rocker cover off, lots of oil coming up the push rods/valves (which is then going into the air filter), all pointing to over pressurisation of the crank case.

I guess that a set of standard rings and a couple of head gaskets would be in order. Pity, I have a spare 2.5D in Perth and a 2.25 in Kalgoorlie.

In an emergency, would a 2.25D head gasket fit on a 2.5D?

Thanks in advance everyone.

James

[isuzurover]

In an emergency, would a 2.25D head gasket fit on a 2.5D?

Don't see why not. I worked out that I could bolt a 300Tdi head on my 2.25 using a 2.25 head gasket.

Without a proper comp tester it will be hard to diagnose the problem.

Bear in mind the 2.25Ps I have pulled apart with broken rings have had scored bores (though a hone may have rendered them serviceable) and in one case two broken pieces of ring had widened the ring groove in a piston so they could sit on top of each other (which meant cactus piston).

[juddy]

Billie, says it was nothing to do with her....:cool:

[RR P38]

Its still running isnt it?
How smokey is the exhaust?

Run a makeshift breather and somehow plumb it back into the air intake and drive the sucker home, or too a decent LR mechanic.

Join the NRMA and get them to get it home.

[Loubrey]

Run a makeshift breather and somehow plumb it back into the air intake and drive the sucker home, or too a decent LR mechanic.

Join the NRMA and get them to get it home.


I think these lads are far, far away from home...

Good luck with the 90 and keep us posted on your travels!

Cheers!

[isuzurover]

Its still running isnt it?
How smokey is the exhaust?

Run a makeshift breather and somehow plumb it back into the air intake and drive the sucker home, or too a decent LR mechanic.

Join the NRMA and get them to get it home.

I don't think RAC(WA) have a membership option that covers 4000 km of towing.

[The ho har's]

So sorry to hear of your'e plight...

when juddy rang and asked if we could help his friend we didn't realise it was you and you didn't mention it when we spoken on the phone:(

hope it gets sorted soon..

Mrs hh:angel:

[Gavo]

I would be giving these guys a call I have aways found them good with phone questions and have freight all over the place. My Dad in melbpurne needed some stuff and they sent it to him cheaper that what he could get it in Melbourne.
Mr Automotive
Anzac Avenue
Redcliffe QLD 4020
(07) 3284 6688


Did anyone tell you to get an Isuzu?
One of them would haul real well in a ninty.

[Veryan]

Thanks all for feedback and comments. :) Have established camp at Gundy and set about some open heart surgery on the 90.

First things first was to try and establish which of the pistons might have cracked a ring with a compression test we headed of into town to track down a diesel mechanic. 4 workshops and a few phone calls later, no one had a adapter for either the glow plugs or the injectors....while everyone was very friendly (just like the sign into town promised!) no one was really very helpful, not wanting a bar of this Land Rover engine.

Using a technique given to me by Blknight, we pressurised the cylinders through the glow plug hole and tried to establish which is any was allowing compressed gas through into the crankcase and spurting oil out of the dip stick etc. We could not establish anything definitive, and not being left we many options rang about to see where we could get a head gasket and rings..since we figured it was time to pull off the head and have a look...luck would have it that both MR Automotive and Four Wheel Drives both have parts, MR being closer got the order for a upper gasket set and set of STD rings.

Next was establishing a bush workshop at some camping grounds near the outskirts of town (and handily close to the CAT workshop)

39329

We then set about removing all the bits that get in the way, like the injectors. Noticed oil around the bases....is this meant to be there?

39330

Then out came the bolts. Boxes are useful to store them in the right order

39331

Out comes the head

39332

Inside one of the cylinders. Cross hatching still evident. Slight score on the bore - essentially wiped it off - a sign of things to come? Could not feel any cracks other than those that are meant to be there in the rings with the feeler gauge, but a large lip of carbon was noted

39333

What does tomorrow bring? Looks to be removing the carbon lip and seeing what it is hiding. Dropping the pistons and seeing what has happened to the rings. Checking the head, since some fractures were noted around the pre-combustion chambers - not a good sign either.....

[Gavo]

You should have someone video everthing and make a doco.
I know a bloke if you interested.
I am sure the poms would watch somthing like that.

[jerryd]

Sorry to hear about your troubles James, hope you can get it sorted okay.

[juddy]

Gill said do you want help from Neville :wasntme:

Did mr get the parts out same day?

How's the food going, do you need a air-drop

[Veryan]

You should have someone video everthing and make a doco.
I know a bloke if you interested.
I am sure the poms would watch somthing like that.


We are filming as much as we can, we only have a little handy cam...and we got some good time-lapse of taking off the head yesterday with the gopro. I guess that is something positive! :)

MR said the parts should arrive with them today....and they would send them ASAP. But it looks like the weekend will get in the way and delay things a little.

Juddy - still got plenty of food left...at least 2 more meals from Gills stash she cooked up. We hijacked the freezer in the caravan park :cool: The curry was delish! :)

[isuzurover]

Checking the head, since some fractures were noted around the pre-combustion chambers - not a good sign either.....

Slight cracking on the pre-combustion chambers and even on the injector nozzles is normal (unfortunately!).

Those vertical lines in the cylinder look ominous... Which cylinder was that?

[Blknight.aus]

not too worried about the vertical lines on the bores thats going to be from the ring gap from the first and second compression rings Im more worried about the amount of oil thats up past the rings and the fouling on the bore....

from my 2.25 manual....

the clearance limits for the diesel piston to bore is .111mm (44 thou) to .134mm (53 thou)

for over size its .111 to .157mm (44 to 64 thou) the tighter tolerance I quoted you on on the phone is for petrol engines.

did you want me to scan in the rebuild instructions from my 2.25 workshop manual and did you want me to send you any of the specialist measuring tools or the bottle brush bore hone?

[Veryan]

Well, good day and bad day....

...knocked the pistons out this morning and was stunned to find no cracked piston rings! So what the bloody hell is going on!?! :confused: :confused:

Checked the head for any signs of warpedness....none that we could find with a straight edge. :)

With the help of Blknight to bounce a few ideas off and advice, we measured the bores. I can confirm that a 2.5D N/A has a slight tapper at the top. Using feeler gauges we inserted the pistons back in and checked the tolerance between the skirt (at right angles to the gudgeon pin) and the bore with a 0.0015 thou feeler and it would not fit in the gap, which is within tolerance of the 0.001 - 0.002 set out in the manual. Unfortunately the manual does not detail any other tolerances for pistons and rings....:eek:(!) From this I can only really conclude that the engine is not that worn?! The rings do not look scored or damaged and neither do the bores. It ran fine and was not spewing out blue smoke or even hard to start. We cleaned out the carbon build up on the tops of the cylinder bores and gave the pistons a bath and light scrub in diesel, while everyone else enjoyed the sunshine and the artisan spar in the background:D

Are there any issues with putting the pistons back in and not replacing the rings? They look fine. Feeler gauge says they are fine...?!

This leads me to still be confused. I did find that the oil pump was very loose and I removed it by using only my hands and no tools..:(

Which leads me too an interesting discussion with Blknight RE the vac pump, which is driven off the cam where the injection pump used to be on the 2.25D. Where does this exhaust to? The Camshaft? And then up into the rocker cover via the push roads? If the oil pump was loose, would this allow the vac pump to exhaust into the crank case via the oil drive passageway, over pressuring the crank? Its not pistons doing this as far as I can tell. The brakes are the only thing that have been touched in this country - would reverse bleeding lead to a damaged diaphragm in the brake booster, leading to the vac pump continuously sucking and through the loose oil pump pressurise the crack case?


Morning come round, swags and bivvy bag still out. First proper night of camping. Poncho wrapped round the engine to reduce dust getting in. Later it became my tarp to work off

39358

Seem to be attraching a little bit of attention at the camp site...these guys came and helped us measure the head.

39359

Me pulling of the sump

39360

Not really where you want to have your piston - or head, in the back of your car.

39361

Scrubbing the pistons in Diesel, removing the carbon...if this all goes well may even gain a few cc :D

39362

Being stuck here seems not too bad...hot spar behind the workshop, and a B&S ball is happening across the road tomorrow...best go dig out some sort of black tie and stock up on Bundy ;)

J

[slug_burner]

Sounds like the adaptor for the compression gauge would of saved a bit of work.

[Reads90]

This is common problem with the 2.5 n/a and the 2.5 Turbo

The 2.5 after all was a bored out 2.25 and the 2.5 Turbo was just a 2.5 with a turbo wacked on. BTW The 2.5 Turbo had a life of about 70,000 miles before it blow up.

I don't believe Australia had the pleasure of these engines

I had all three of the engines in a S3 (2.25 ) and a couple of 90's

My 90 2.5 did just the same as this one and was a common thing with the 2.5's to transfer oil into the air filter when the engine was worked hard. I tried to fix this but gave up in the end as it did not seem to effect the engine or oil.
But if the oil is excessive then that is not the norm, the norm was damp with oil and not soaked with oil

You could try and check the Cyclone breather diaphram as if this is blocked the oil with go up from the rocker cover breather into the air filter

But If you have a worry , the cylinder you want to look at is number 4 as it is furthest away from the rad and cool air so it gets the hottest of them all.
I did have a 2.5 that I had to rebuild because the rings we gone. But showed no normal signs just crank case pressure that blow out the rear main. Took me a while to work out that was what it was. In fact two rear main oil seals and 3 head gaskets later

But they are an easy engine to work on . I got the head gasket change down to an hour and half in the end

But to be honest if you have all the pistons and rings out then I would put new ones in out of matter of course. Because even though I have said it could be a few things one of the things it could be is crank case pressure which would caused by the rings so changing them would fix it and while you are in there you would mad not to change them

[Veryan]

Well the weekend has passed and we are still in Goondiwindi. Making the best of a bad situation there was a B&S Ball on so to keep our spirits up we headed along to that :) :) :)

Before the bundy....

39481

After

39482

Only to have our hopes dashed of getting away tomorrow because the courier company an only confirm it will arrive at some point before close of business tomorrow :( ....we had hoped today...the parts are only in Toowomba. Might have been quicker by Australia post....

[Veryan]

Well, we are still here. Very frustrated and very confused. In fact...stumped. Beginning to feel like Goondiwindi's news residents.

Yesterday

Parts arrived yesterday, head gasket and rings. Great. Pistons in, new head gasket on, following the instructions in the manual that say the "Diesel" lettering should face uppermost. Bolt it all up, fill her up with coolant only to find it all ****ing out along the passenger side of the hear. Turns out the manual is wrong and it goes the other way round otherwise it does not block off the water gallery in the head....! Checked the original gasket and, it goes on "Diesel" facing down. Lesson 1 learned for the day.

Today

Fired the landy up, still getting blow back. Blanked off the vac pump, still getting blow back. So we run a decompression test on all cylinders. Seems that it will fire and run on 3 pistons when #2 is decompressed, but when any of the others is decompressed it will not fire/run. Suspect #2 has a problem.

Top facing of picture = front of engine. Note, no carbon build up in #2 and mark where valve has hit piston - not sure if from when we put the head on or not checking rockers/tappets

39599

39600

Pull head (Again). Note that #2 piston is oily and not covered in carbon and a little diesel. Also note the inlet valve has bashed the piston.

Head. Top of picture = front of engine. Note #2 piston is oily/diesely....

39601

39602

Lesson 2, always check tappet clearances when putting it all back together.

Lesson 3. Even though the rings may look fine and measure fine, they can still be stuffed. So we decided that we would hav.e to replace the rings aswell

Plan for the day...pull head, check valves, install new rings, put back together

To be continued.....

[Veryan]

Today continued

So decompression test and head of this morning. Purchased a valve compressor, lapping tools and paste. Removed inlet valve from #2 piston and checked it over, not bent, no cracking of valve guide...replaced stem seal. adn re-lapped it and then went about checking every valve and re-lapping them too.

39603

Borrowed a ring compressor (Again) and a bottle brush hone. Dismantled the pistons, one by one and replaced the rings and gave the bores a light hone

Old rings...

39604

New rings....

39605

It was noted that there as visible difference in wear in the new rings, with #1 and #2 pistons rings showing no sign off any taper or chamfer to any edges, with #3 and #4 pistons showing a very very small amount. Perhaps that is it?! What is causing the problems?

Yet again, the instructions were not very clear as to which compression ring goes where. The data sheet says #1 compression rings is tapered and chrome plated, and #2 square cut. Instructions state the opposite. Good work Land Rover Workshop Manual! A few phone calls later (MR Automotive) and the top one is the chrome tapered variety and #2 the square cut one....

Work went on late into the night, with the head finally going back on at 7.30pm

39606

Tomorrow, head gasket on, torque up, rockers/tappet adjustment...fire it up and hope the the best. I am sure we are due some good luck soon....

[101RRS]

Can't help with the actual problem - but if the engine actually runs I would be tempted to buy up on oil (and degreaser) and irrespective of whether you have blow by or not I would be on your way.

It might make a mess but it is not likely to stop going in the short term.

Good luck with it.

Garry

[isuzurover]

Sounds like you have a copper head gasket?

VHT copper spray is worth the $$$. Apply a liberal coating to both sides.

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Fellows

Before you put the exhaust back on, run / idle the motor till it is warm, and check then for blow by, by giving it a noisy rev or two.
Then let it cool for a while, put the exhaust system back on and do the same again.

Look out for the possibility of the muffler being choked up.

Cheers Arthur

[LRO53]

This is common problem with the 2.5 n/a and the 2.5 Turbo

The 2.5 after all was a bored out 2.25 and the 2.5 Turbo was just a 2.5 with a turbo wacked on. BTW The 2.5 Turbo had a life of about 70,000 miles before it blow up.

I don't believe Australia had the pleasure of these engines

I had all three of the engines in a S3 (2.25 ) and a couple of 90's

My 90 2.5 did just the same as this one and was a common thing with the 2.5's to transfer oil into the air filter when the engine was worked hard. I tried to fix this but gave up in the end as it did not seem to effect the engine or oil.
But if the oil is excessive then that is not the norm, the norm was damp with oil and not soaked with oil

You could try and check the Cyclone breather diaphram as if this is blocked the oil with go up from the rocker cover breather into the air filter

But If you have a worry , the cylinder you want to look at is number 4 as it is furthest away from the rad and cool air so it gets the hottest of them all.
I did have a 2.5 that I had to rebuild because the rings we gone. But showed no normal signs just crank case pressure that blow out the rear main. Took me a while to work out that was what it was. In fact two rear main oil seals and 3 head gaskets later

But they are an easy engine to work on . I got the head gasket change down to an hour and half in the end

But to be honest if you have all the pistons and rings out then I would put new ones in out of matter of course. Because even though I have said it could be a few things one of the things it could be is crank case pressure which would caused by the rings so changing them would fix it and while you are in there you would mad not to change them

Yes 100% agree the Turbo Diesel 2.5 is a abortion of an engine..... Here's one that failed 3 weeks ago at a friends garage. So they are still failing 20+ years after they were new.

75,000 miles from new serviced by same garage from New.... 3 Weeks ago coming up a hill no load in the vehicle just an empty tray, Changing from 3rd into Top... And BANG!

Photos speak for themselves.... We think it could of been a Big end cap bolt failure

And the end of it all in late 1980s they up rated the block and crank which gave us the 200Tdi. But sadly Land Rover Engine development between 1958-1998 was really only updates on old designs basically trying to get away with the minimum Eg. as Reads90 says Boring a 2.25 to Make a 2.5 Turbo but change nothing else!:eek:

[Veryan]

Sounds like you have a copper head gasket?

VHT copper spray is worth the $$$. Apply a liberal coating to both sides.

I have a steel one and a composite one....the steel one....


Arthur, we sheared of a couple of the exhaust studs and have been running with no/limited muffler...much to the annoyance of the caravan park...didn't seem to make a difference

Putting back on the rocker gear and seeing what happens today, otherwise it might me a bulk buy of oil...when we dry out from all that rain...:eek:

Thanks all for help so far...

[isuzurover]

Eg. as Reads90 says Boring a 2.25 to Make a 2.5 Turbo but change nothing else!:eek:

You and reads 90 are both incorrect. The 2.25 and 2.5 engines have the same bore. It is the stroke that increased.

[Veryan]

Well thats it. I throw in the towel on this one. After one and a half weeks in Goondiwindi, pulled the head 3 times, re-lapping all the valves, fitting new rings and stem seals...its time for the transporter back to Brisbane and then a train to Perth. It still spits oil out of the dip stick and breathes like a beast out the rocker cover breather. I had thought for a second that I had fixed it, it stopped spitting oil for about 10 minutes, and the blue smoke stopped. You beaut I thought! 2km down the road it was feeling sluggish. Pulled over and it was spitting oil out.

Thank you all for advice and help, it was very much appreciated, but at the end of the day I've run out of time and patience. BIg thanks to Blknight. I owe you a few beers next time your in Perth.

Engine rebuild coming up, or maybe something a little different. If anyone has anything of interest....3.9EFI and a box to suit, 300Tdi...PM me

James

[Blknight.aus]

just so happens I may have a pair of 3.5's and an lt95 to suit.

see you in a bit over a week?

Dont turf that donk, I've got a project in mind for it... :)

[Veryan]

just so happens I may have a pair of 3.5's and an lt95 to suit.

see you in a bit over a week?

Dont turf that donk, I've got a project in mind for it... :)

Will be back in Brissie Monday morning, hoping to get picked up Monday/Tuesday (from Ferny Grove) for transport back to Perth. I'll be around for a week or so. So if you are about I'd be keen for a beer. :)

By the time I'd pulled the head for the 3rd time and fitted rings I was in the mood to sling the sod it off a bridge into the Swan River. Annoyingly We never really found out what was wrong. I can only guess at lots of little things...worn valve guides and rings etc....

I can start the parts list now...

Needs new:
Valves, guides, springs and seals
rockers
push rods
pre combustion chambers
pistons, rings.
A re-bore.
big end bearings.

Good bits,
still only std pistons, and big ends. 10 thou undersized mains.
5 bearing crank.
new water pump, fuel pump, injector pump, cam belt.

[Blknight.aus]

wrong oil.

[slug_burner]

Doesn't it have to bed in a bit?

[isuzurover]

Doesn't it have to bed in a bit?

That was my thinking!

Did you hone the bores?

[Veryan]

I did a light hone of the bores by hand. I didn't go crazy with an electric drill. I put 20w-50 in it. It had 15w-40. Not running in oil I understand, but the lack of power, the blue-grey-black smoke made me very nervous. I made sure I put a new head gasket on.

It chuffed away with a little blue smoke for 5-6 minutes or so. Then it stopped with the blue smoke (the oil used to assemble it all) an there was no blow back - there was heavy rocker cover breathing (so much so I taped a pump bottle with a hole to the rocker cover breather pipe). When we set off for a trip around the block, thats when all the crazy smoke started pouring out the rear and it would barely make 60kph.

[bobslandies]

Hi,

Sorry to hear about your problems with the 90.

I seem to remember reading on a UK forum that these engines pressurised the sump and the fix was a sump breather. Maybe a search of the Land Rover UK Forums (http://forum.landrovernet.com/forum.php) might give you some info.

If you are not a member you have to register to see everything.

Bob

[Gavo]

I heared a while ago from on old bloke thsat he got a bad load of fuel that caused the same problems as you have.
I noticed as I read through I didn't notice that you di anything with your fuel.
If bad fuel had caused it to glase up badly and you rebuild it and drive off with the same fuel you may end up with the problem all over again.
This old bloke got a table spoon of ajax or bonami the powder cleanser that you use in the kitchen to clean pots. The put the table spoon beside the intake with the engine running and slowly tapped it so the powder would be sucked it the intake with the revs up a bit.
This I saw him do and I have done it myself.
I did it to an engine I reringed that had a bit of blue smoke.
I just thought I would mention this as it would be worth a try before you pull it out.

[Veryan]

Well, I am back in Brisbane now. The 90 was loaded up onto the car transporter and on its way to WA by rail. We pulled out while it was still drivable and able to get onto a truck.

I have a few jerry can for sale in the ads section.

All tools packed up and sent back by courier.

The most annoying thing was there was not one thing that jumped out and said "hey im broke - fix me!" I have a spare donk in Perth for the time being. Looks like a full rebuild of this one.

Could have had a bad batch of fuel - it did come on all of a sudden, which makes it seem the more strange that there was one thing that was broken...ah well. Back to Perth and I will report my findings....

[Tank]

This maybe a silly question, but here goes, did you gap the piston rings in their individual bores before fitting to the pistons, if you did what was the gap (in thou's.), looking at one of the photos of the bore marks, which Dave described as ring gap marks, they look to be excessive, forgive me if I'm wrong but a lot of people take the ring size printed on the packet as Gospel. It pays to check each and every ring in it's bore. Also did you check to see if there was any oil in the vacuum booster (brake), Regards Frank.

[TJWA]

What a nightmare trip, I admire you for perservering as you did, I would have driven the car off a bridge in a rage halfway though the trouble you had. You titled one of your posts 'Epic Fail', no way, you fought hard and you should be proud.

[Veryan]

What a nightmare trip, I admire you for perservering as you did, I would have driven the car off a bridge in a rage halfway though the trouble you had. You titled one of your posts 'Epic Fail', no way, you fought hard and you should be proud.

Thanks TJ, it was a interesting and massive learning experience. And yus, I did on many occasions want to either burn it or push it off a cliff! But seeing it today, I just want to get it running again, since it looks pretty sweet and its in excellent condition. :)

[wrinklearthur]

Thanks TJ, it was a interesting and massive learning experience. And yus, I did on many occasions want to either burn it or push it off a cliff! But seeing it today, I just want to get it running again, since it looks pretty sweet and its in excellent condition. :)
Hi James

That didn't take too long to get that Land Rover back.

Before you do much more to that motor, it would be a good idea to find exactly what is causing the sump to pressurise.

Get hold of a cylinder compression gauge and then do a dry and then wet compression test, this test will show if the motor is within specification, has ring blow by or has a top end problem with say, the valves stems.
Make sure that you take an accurate measurement, using the same technique, for each cylinder in turn.

PM me if you need any info for doing this.

By the way, is the oil able to return ok, from the rocker cover, back to the sump ? As if the rocker cover is flooding, this will give the same problems as you have described.

Cheers Arthur

[Veryan]

Good plan! Just need to track down the appropriate adapter, or mechanic willing to come to mine. Unless someone is willing to let me borrow the correct fitting or advise on the correct one to get?

At present the the only way for the oil to return is via the drain holes in head - the usual way. Although I doubt much is due to the pressure in the sump. This engine does not have the little cyclone/separater breather from the rocker cover to the cam shaft that the later model 2.5D N/A had and up to 300Tdi (I recently read because they used to breath a lot of oil into the air filter, and runaways occurred...the first bit sounds familiar). At the moment, any oil from the Rocker cover goes into a pump bottle :D

[Veryan]

So having got m y truck back to Perth, ordered up a new clutch I finally got around to swapping the engine last weekend with a similar unit from my flatmates S1, a BN52. Now I have known this engine since 2007, when my housemate used to store his S1 in England at my place in Cornwall when we were at Uni. It was a good runner:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/138844-not-bad-days-work.html


Why did I go down this route? Well it was a like for like swap, and to get my wheel rolling while I saved a few pennies for something with more grunt.

I have had some offers from many people here for engines, but to date, this whole exercise has left me a little short in the bank, so I wont be able to upgrade until next year. And when I do, it will be a 300Tdi or a 2.8 Isuzu.

After a little trouble trying to get the BN52 to start (had to bleed it about 10 times), it finally , after 8 months of sitting around, spluttered into life. Great I thought. Until I realised that is had the same symptoms as the engine I had in it before. In fact, worse blowby and even more oil being ejected from the dip stick. I even managed to get the bulkhead with oil on idle when I pulled out the dipstick this time :eek:

40862

Thought better of advancing the throttle without the dipstick in, not sure the owner of the rental would appreciate my 90's impersonation of Pollock all over the garage wall :cool:

I jerry rigged up the pump bottle to catch oil from the breather, note you can see quite a lot of oil residue from the 10 minutes of running around the hole I cut to allow the gasses to escape.

40863

This leaves me with a dilemma, either this is totally normal to breath this much, or both engines are stuffed?

Should I park it up, or drive about like this? If I drive about, I will need to plumb the rocker cover breather into the intake manifold, but with some form of oil catcher, to catch the oil so not to get a run - away engine, like this:

40864

I was thinking of using a small pop bottle, and silasticating in a couple of tubes like shown, or is there a PCV from another vehicle that is cheap to buy and I can jerry rig up like I have shown? (I think the 200/300Tdi have one between the rocker cover and the cam gallery?).

So my ability to get my hands on stuffed engines continues...awesome. Joke is wearing a little thin now. Time for a Ceremonial Burning?

[Veryan]

When I mean the Breather PCV of a 200/300tdi I mean the cyclone breather bits, specifically part #9

40865

[Veryan]

I have done a little research and this is what I have come up with:

2.5D N/A set up - most bit shard to get. Had a separate valve and breather. Rocker cover hose feeds into cyclone, which has a oil drain to the sump (not sure where exactly) and then gases exit via the valve to the intake manifold:

40866

200/300Tdi Set up. Rocker cover gases go into the cam gallery area. Oil drain pipe comes from the block/sump to the bottom of the cyclone breather and gases etc exit via the top to the intake manifold.

40867

I note that on all the cyclone breathers there is a 3rd "hole" alongside the mounting hole.

Can I use this modern cyclone breather thus - rocker cover into this 3rd hole, drain pipe down to the sump (not sure how I will get it in, will have to look at the sump tonight) and the the gases exit as per normal to the intake manifold:

40868

Is this going to work? Or do i need that side plate like the 200/300Tdi engines have on the cam gallery?

[isuzurover]

It may have glazed bores and/or get better over time. Catch cans are only mildly effective (unless you make them huge). If you want an effective option, buy a Provent.

I found out recently (on a 2.25D), that as a temporary measure, if you restrict the intake, the heavy breathing will be reduced or stopped. (you need to restrict the intake a very small diameter e.g. ~10-15 mm).

After doing this for a couple of days the heavy breathing was significantly reduced!!!

Also try flushing the engine oil out and running a heavier oil. Some of the heavy "old engine" oils are rated for diesels.

[Veryan]

I was running it with the air intake off, mostly I wanted to check before putting all the "clutter" back in the front that there were no leaks.

The engine in its previous steed was run through a oil bath air filter...that might have been then why it was not as noticeable. I imagine that would cause a sufficient reducing in airflow.

What did you use to restrict the intake manifold?

Engine oil is 20W-40 I think...I'll check the tub.

I will keep the pump bottle for the time being - 750ml...should do the trick. I'll plumb a second feed into the intake manifold so it doesn't feed the fumes into the driving compartment.

I ordered up a cyclone breather (from the UK, $16 vs $75 [+$13 postage] :eek: here) and can have a play with that when it arrives next week.

Cheers Ben!

J

[Veryan]

So, I started putting the front end back together. Only to find that the fan shroud fouls the fan. I had a look at the old engine and it has a longer pulley. I had a faff for the evening until giving up in a huff. Need a special spanner to get the viscous coupling off....grrr

Does anyone have one off these I could borrow for the afternoon?

http://http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/19765/DA1111-VISCOUS-FAN-COUPLING-SPANNER.html'search=viscous%20fan&page=1