WH&S advocates please explain

[newhue]

I'm looking for an answer to WH&S because their policy seems "too much money chucked at safety, is barley enough". Work Cover Qld can only give me a bureaucratic answer like a politician to my question. They say it's different.

My Work Cover insurance for 5 staff in the building industry is $8500 per year; however the CTP component (public health) side of my comprehensive car insurance is only $353.
My car can take five people, and I can kill and lame them easier than a day at work.
Work place safety is my responsibility according to the Work Cover policy for my staff to drive to and from work. My view is the roads are public but we all use them to access work, how come because I'm an employer I supposed to pay for endless safety, but it's ok for the government to have square gutters without highlighted edging, trees and telegraph poles all over the place un signed, high lighted or padded. Two way traffic with a "High Risk" chance of an accident and no barriers. And so you get the drift.

I'm not saying I want to pay for that with Taxes or or even want that.
But honestly we are getting ripped off by the government, and over regulated by the staff, academics, and legal people who work in the WH&S industry.
If you keep asking the question as they do "is it safe", an industry can go on for ever because it's an endless question.
I sure as hell bet they do not do a work method statement for making a cup of coffee, but if I have to spend 5 minutes to work over something potentially dangerous as an employer, it's expected for me to spend the
money doing the paper work and what ever is required to be safe.

To highlight the stupidly of the industries thinking. Due to the occasional death in the industry from electrocution, and IMO perhaps at east 50% is the victims own stupidly. WH&S requires employers to have all electrical equipment check by an accreted inspector. Cost me about $200 every two months.
However it is only deemed safe the very second the inspector does the test. I have one lead catch fire the next day, and two fail within two days, and two tools fail with a week of being inspected. All due to broken wires inside the lead.
The inspector who ownes a testing franchise for a major franchise company who roots started mowing does not even run their hands along the lead looking for cuts. Perhaps because it's not legally required, or takes another 2 minutes. But in the inspectors words, "most electrocutions are from cuts and nicks in a lead leads.
Now, some over the top representative from WH&S will look at this and devise another step to save a life, but completely disregard the pointlessness of the whole exercise. WH&S staff member does his job, CEO can report to Government he has saved the world again, Politician can say he crated another job, and the solicitor gets to have his day winning and unloosable hearing. Mean while the employer has something else to spend his whopping profits on, after he has finished paying all the other bills.

remember $8500 compered to $385 for the same insurance.
WH&S are theives

[Siska]

I feel for you mate. A few years back I was in partnership with a mate and had quite a successful bricklaying team, but we ended up throwing it in and working with only a labourer as the costs of Work Cover and Super were killing us. I can't remember the exact figures now, but we could have purchased independent accident/death/wages polices that covered our workers 24/7 for a large amount cheaper than what we had to pay in Work Cover where they were only protected on site. But when we approached Work Cover we were told that we would still have to pay Work Cover.

I've now worked on quite a few Commercial sites that employ independent safety auditors to come and preform safety checks on sites. Some of these safety measures IMO are ridiculous! I really believe that they are dumbing down the population and protecting the stupid with these measures.

[clubagreenie]

Hows $1000- per person per day insurance just for being on site, before anyone starts work. Once you define the work taking place then it goes up from there.

[TwoUp]

newhue,
The test and tag fellow should have fully tested any item given to him, including running along the lead and testing all components. They attend a nationally recognised course that includes this testing. You also can attend one of these courses and do your own and others if you like. This will reduce one cost and perhaps then be done correctly.

The costs for Work Cover in a no fault no blame senario will always be high, especially if you make a number of claims. Not saying you do.

The work method statements etc are not worth a cracker if you dont review and ensure that the staff are complying with them.

Cheers,
PeterW

[ramblingboy42]

I am currently going through an endless plethora of coal board, bma, site specific inductions and training to work in various minesites around the central Qld areas. My employer doesnt seem to think he will see much productive work inside 6-8 weeks due to the necessity to meet the required training and inductions to get me onto all the minesites that I will need to enter as part of my job. So far I have cost him $8000 and I wont be moving to my job location for another two weeks.

[scarry]

I also feel your pain,we pay around 6K a year for workcover at the moment,& have never had a claim in 20yrs...touch wood.

As for tag & test,if you read into the regulations,i am pretty sure you have to be "competent" to be able to do it,& should also have the ability to use a multimeter &/or a megga.You don't need an electrical ticket as such but maybe do the course as someone else has said.But then it becomes something you will have to do yourselves,where sometimes it is easier to get someone else to do it,as long as it is done properly.

We don't work on building sites,so it is not a big issue for us.

Another gripe i have is public liability,work around cooling towers as we do,and all of a sudden the premiums increase around 50%:mad::mad:

And they wonder why people want to give running a business away,as all this is on top of all the other CRAP, to put it politely, that we have to put up with.

[Ratel10mm]

Why do the premiums go up so much around CT's Paul? I'm presuming Legionella. My lot have Hydrochem look after the water side on all ours, but we get involved with motors & belts so you've got me thinking.

Newhue, for want it's worth I'm told we miss out on a LOT of jobs due to OH&S costs. My employers HAVE TO abide by all the OH&S requirements. An example from another company - some muppet had decided that the best place to install the kitchen extract in a freind's restaurant was over the kitchen. Trane (as it was then) quoted him 2K to scaffold, remove the fan, service & repair it & reinstall it. Some one man band crawls down the duct & 'fixes' the fan in situ. WITH THE KITCHEN IN FULL OPERATION! for $400.00. Now, if the duct hadn't taken his weight, or worse, the combined weight of him& the fan, I can guess it'd be more than lobster that got cooked.
I do agree that OH&S can be more of a hindrance than a help, and yes my friend is a businessman & sees he saves $1600.
But it is supposed to stop idiots like that one man band. Or businessmen like my friend.
The obvious answer is to force architects, builders & all involved in construction to think about maintenance & design out potential safety issues like that one.

My personal big hate is the way everyone throws plant on the roof with no means of access other than an extension ladder. I don't like heights. I can cope just fine as long as I don't feel exposed, so extension ladders don't work for me!

If I ever got in charge of the local planning office, safe access to plant areas would be written into the requirements for granting a permit to build.

[Ralph1Malph]

Firstly, test taggers are as liable as anyone for their work.
I am not suggesting you do or should, but if a tested asset fails and or contributes to the 'accident', they are equally as liable. To prove it is hard. I sometimes make use of universty faculties for similar analysis. No shortage of grad and post grad students willing to test and write theories and hypotheses about the failure. That being said, it's not that hard to 'date' a particular piece of damage to a cord or wire, it's just a lab project really.

Secondly, it's all about transfer of risk. Transfer from the employer to the insurer, transfer from the individual to the employer. At the end of the day, it's a statutory rort. All industry players are affected the same so in reallity, the cost is simply passed on to the end consumer, who in turn, sources their product from overseas. IMHO, it is legal 'pizzo'. Money you pay in order to run your business.

Oh, and as for the comment about the coffee, yes you are right! In the aircraft passenger industry, the QANTAS subsidiary responsible for food service on the flights was issued a notice some years ago because, a steward or stewardess noticed that one of the coffee (or tea, I can't remember) pots was from a different model aircraft and may have caused a mid air incident.

Cheers

Ralph

[newhue]

yes the time for giving up and going back to just me is about here. I don't want to sack my staff as I like them all, and they all families and mortgages. However the way I see it, as a sole trader I simply can't comply with WH&S. And when I was more serious about complying I failed on every aspect when WH&S staff member came for a visit one day.
The management and time issues can't be met due to all the other hats a sole trader has to wear. WH&S endless and forever changing requirements. The upfront cost and cost of implementing it. And the threat of personal financial destruction for not complying is simply not worth employing people.

[scarry]

yes the time for giving up and going back to just me is about here. I don't want to sack my staff as I like them all, and they all families and mortgages. However the way I see it, as a sole trader I simply can't comply with WH&S. And when I was more serious about complying I failed on every aspect when WH&S staff member came for a visit one day.
The management and time issues can't be met due to all the other hats a sole trader has to wear. WH&S endless and forever changing requirements. The upfront cost and cost of implementing it. And the threat of personal financial destruction for not complying is simply not worth employing people.

EXACTLY

One of the main reason's i gave up a heap of work & went back to myself & one of my son's,plus an apprentice from All Trades.
But the problem now is,our work quantity is growing,& i really need another mechanic,decisions,decisions.....
ATM,i give away heaps of work,but i suppose you can't have your cake & eat it,just take the good jobs,pick & choose if you can,or use the occasional subby if you have to.

As for WH&S,if we followed the rules correctly,we wouldn't be in business,as we wouldn't have any jobs...:(

[d2dave]

It's all this crap just being discussed that makes me glad I don't employ any one. Just me and SWMBO self employed in a small business.

We do some times employ casuals, but we make sure that the hours are low enough to fall below workcover and super contributions.

Dave.

[scarry]

Why do the premiums go up so much around CT's Paul? I'm presuming Legionella. My lot have Hydrochem look after the water side on all ours, but we get involved with motors & belts so you've got me thinking.





Dunno,maybe ligionella,but we don't even do tower cleans these days,it is all done by the watertreatment guys,usually hydrochem.Belts & fans aren't just on CT's,we work on them everywhere.Maybe just an excuse to increase premiums,maybe i shall ask them,see what they have to say.




My personal big hate is the way everyone throws plant on the roof with no means of access other than an extension ladder. I don't like heights. I can cope just fine as long as I don't feel exposed, so extension ladders don't work for me!




My pet hate as well,heights don't worry me,but carrying gas bottles,etc up step ladders can be extremely dangerous.As said,every building that has plant/equipment on the roof & is higher than one level should have access onto the roof that complies with WH&S,such as internal access from the building,not a fixed ladder up the side,as these are pretty useless as well.

[newhue]

EXACTLY

One of the main reason's i gave up a heap of work & went back to myself & one of my son's,plus an apprentice from All Trades.
But the problem now is,our work quantity is growing,& i really need another mechanic,decisions,decisions.....
ATM,i give away heaps of work,but i suppose you can't have your cake & eat it,just take the good jobs,pick & choose if you can,or use the occasional subby if you have to.

As for WH&S,if we followed the rules correctly,we wouldn't be in business,as we wouldn't have any jobs...:(

Opposed to employing more people, just put your price up, keep the service sharp, and you will find the limit when you start loosing more than you win.

Well that's my plan
I told the lads today no job after Christmas, feel quite bad about it, but I can't expose myself to WH&S lability with staff anymore.


Should we move onto the nest gripe, being the Governments accountants?

[Mick_Marsh]

Why do the premiums go up so much around CT's Paul? I'm presuming Legionella. My lot have Hydrochem look after the water side on all ours, but we get involved with motors & belts so you've got me thinking.

Newhue, for want it's worth I'm told we miss out on a LOT of jobs due to OH&S costs. My employers HAVE TO abide by all the OH&S requirements. An example from another company - some muppet had decided that the best place to install the kitchen extract in a freind's restaurant was over the kitchen. Trane (as it was then) quoted him 2K to scaffold, remove the fan, service & repair it & reinstall it. Some one man band crawls down the duct & 'fixes' the fan in situ. WITH THE KITCHEN IN FULL OPERATION! for $400.00. Now, if the duct hadn't taken his weight, or worse, the combined weight of him& the fan, I can guess it'd be more than lobster that got cooked.
I do agree that OH&S can be more of a hindrance than a help, and yes my friend is a businessman & sees he saves $1600.
But it is supposed to stop idiots like that one man band. Or businessmen like my friend.
The obvious answer is to force architects, builders & all involved in construction to think about maintenance & design out potential safety issues like that one.

My personal big hate is the way everyone throws plant on the roof with no means of access other than an extension ladder. I don't like heights. I can cope just fine as long as I don't feel exposed, so extension ladders don't work for me!

If I ever got in charge of the local planning office, safe access to plant areas would be written into the requirements for granting a permit to build.
Hmm. Interesting. Safety IS more important than cost.

I'm currently doing a Hazardous area course. At the moment a hazardous area is determined by an engineer or some other suitably qualified design person. Once a hazardous area is determined, equipment placed in this area must be certified to be placed in a hazardous area and is expensive.

There are moves to add a new system.

The determination of the hazardous area is still determined buy suitably qualified design personnel but non hazardous area equipment can be placed in in this hazardous area if a group of lawyers, risc assessors and the plant manager agree to.

If this is adopted, we'll be getting more incidents such as happened at Longford but the plant will be cheaper to build and rebuild.

Oh, and probably more insurance claims with the payouts being much smaller.

[scarry]

Governments accountants?

Ha ha,what, they have accountant's?Umm,we better not go there,don't want to hijack the thread:angel:

[scarry]

Well that's my plan


Hope the plan works out:)

It worked very well for me..

[chuck]

I would have thought $1700 to insure an employee at work cheap given the potential financial risk.
A private income protection policy that gives the same benefits as the Workcover schemes would cost a heap more.
SWMS are only legally required for high risk work & this is because these tasks are where the injuries & incidents occur.
You can do a test & tag course your self as AS 3012 only requires a competent person to perform the test & tag process.
Your test & tag franchise might not have performed that well but we regularly incur licensed electricians that can not even write the tag properly let alone interpret the requirements.
If you think the requirements are harsh in Qld you should visit a full commercial site in Melbourne.
Having been a Worksafe Inspector in the past I can tell you the regulations are written for the lowest common denominator & there are some terrible employees & employers out there.

Regards

Chuck

[clubagreenie]

We used to have to write SWMS for each employee on site and JSEA's for each individual task involved in a job daily. Some jobs spent more time writing up and setup/break down each day than working.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>
Having been a Worksafe Inspector in the past I can tell you the regulations are written for the lowest common denominator & there are some terrible employees & employers out there.

Regards
ChuckAn electrician mate (now deceased) was working on the production line equipment at Peak Frene biscuit factory (now Bunnings) having tagged out the power on the machine he was working on, during the work power became live. He stopped and went to the sub board to find that a cleaner had cut the wire holding the tag and re set the power. After that my mate not only tagged, but he removed the cable from the back of the circuit breakers.

As the electrical safety officer on other construction sites, every time he found a lead across a drive way without cable protection, he would switch the lead off and cut the plug from the end.

[BMKal]

An electrician mate (now deceased) was working on the production line equipment at Peak Frene biscuit factory (now Bunnings) having tagged out the power on the machine he was working on, during the work power became live. He stopped and went to the sub board to find that a cleaner had cut the wire holding the tag and re set the power. After that my mate not only tagged, but he removed the cable from the back of the circuit breakers.

As the electrical safety officer on other construction sites, every time he found a lead across a drive way without cable protection, he would switch the lead off and cut the plug from the end.

That's why lockable isolation points (usually circuit breakers) are gradually becoming common place everywhere you go these days - but there is still a long way to go in some industries. I have introduced and insisted on a "tag and lock" isolation procedure everywhere I have worked in recent years where such a procedure was not already in place (and there are still some in the mining industry who are way behind the times).

The cleaner in the case you described should have been instantly dismissed, as removing or rendering another person's personal isolation ineffective is highly illegal. He/she could easily have been prosecuted for it, especially if an injury or fatality had resulted.

But even with the best procedures and training in place, there will always be failures. Last week, I came across a work group re-installing a feed hopper on a conveyor belt feeder above a crusher. People were climbing all over the conveyor belt and the crusher. On investigation of the job (I had pulled them up because of an unsafe crane lift that I had observed), I found that none of the equipment was isolated, and that none of the persons working on the job had placed any personal isolation tags and locks. The entire group spent the rest of the afternoon "re-training" - the supervisor of the job is now unemployed.

As far as "testing and tagging" goes, any competent person can do a course (over here it's a one day course) and can then be authorised to conduct testing and tagging of portable appliances. All this authorises them to do is to "test and tag" - not to conduct any repairs. If an item fails the test, it should be tagged "out of service" and then repaired by a properly authorised and qualified person (electrician). We have three people on the site I am currently working on who are authorised to "test and tag", in addition to our site electricians. I only have one electrician on shift at any one time, so it is good to take this workload away from them. I have also done the course myself, and am authorised to "test and tag", but rarely get the time these days.

We do not use a multi-meter for "test and tag" procedures. The one day course does not adequately train anyone in the use of a multi-meter for this or any other person. There are specific testing devices, like the one below, available on the market for about $1,000 into which you simply plug the appliance's power cord, and then press a button. The device will indicate on a screen whether the applicance has passed or failed the test.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/8250/lcbpellrg.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/31/lcbpellrg.jpg/)