Anyone made a 6x6 pto for LT95?

[wagoo]

As above. I believe the 101 and Perentie 6x6 PTOs are hard to find and even harder to pay for if you can find one.
Was wondering if anyone has documented making their own from a spare rear output housing, centre diff/low range gear etc? I could probably nut out how to do it, but if someone has already done it then it might save a bit of trial and error.
Wagoo.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The 110 bottom PTO wouldnt be much use because the chain drive from the mainshaft sharing the same space as the 6X6 output. Not that I have a LT95, but have considered the same problem with an overdrive.

My thoughts were to use a standard mainshaft constant gear mating the intermediate gear. This would be mounted on a new PTO shaft supported on bearings in a fabricated bottom cover. It would run in constant mesh with the intermediate gear and the PTO dog clutch would be external to the bottom cover.

[Davehoos]

6X6 pto is the same unit as perentie 4X4
.
6X6 out put drives of the intermediate shaft to give road speed.like an overdrive in reverse.the drive gear is sort of copied[bit of imagination required] from the trans for non constant 4X4.

Ive seen a thomas pto on a civy 5 speed.it didnt have a tourque limiter only welded shear pins and a bent shaft.

laying around was different gears some had some didnt have chain sprokets so it might have been a special order for OZ assembly.a lot of early perities had been rebuilt on production to upgrade lubrication and oil pump leaks.

very few 5 speed boxes adapted to to old transfer box for civy sales and i saw one with under slung pto.

[wagoo]

Sorry,possibly my thread title was confusing. I was thinking of making a PTO that gives both low and high range in order to drive a third axle.
Wagoo.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wagoo.

Aren't you better installing a 6X6 drive transfer (Morse chain drive drop box) after the rear output, so that what ever ratio is being driven to the "B" axle is replicated to the "C"axle?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/739.jpg

This way you can still change transfer ratio gearsets without having to replace the 6X6 output ratios.

Diana

[wagoo]

Wagoo.

Aren't you better installing a 6X6 drive transfer (Morse chain drive drop box) after the rear output, so that what ever ratio is being driven to the "B" axle is replicated to the "C"axle?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/739.jpg

This way you can still change transfer ratio gearsets without having to replace the 6X6 output ratios.

Diana

With respect Diana, I don't think you are familiar with the gear train layout of the Perentie 6x6 transfercase. It is very different to series or LT230s.
In simple terms all it consists of is an additional low range gear, identical to the one that is bolted to the back of the centre diff. This low range gear is fitted to a special PTO housing and is in constant mesh with the intermediate gear and therefore gives the same output speeds as the gear on the centre diff, both in low and high range.Whenever different high range gear sets are fitted to LT 95s only 2 gears are changed, The front gear of the 3 piece intermediate gear unit and its corresponding gear on the front of the centre diff .6x6 drive has no effect on changing high range ratios.
The Morse chain unit you suggested costs lots of wonga, take up space and the chain/sprockets are subject to stretch or wear.I believe the chain and sprockets should be replaced as an assembly for a satisfactory repair.
Wagoo.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You are correct I have never physically had my hands on the 6X6 output of the LT95, I have however however seen and studied the diagrammes of the assembly.

The problem with any 6X6 output that uses the alignment of the gearbox mainshaft, be it LT95, LT230, series, Nissan, Toyota, Martian or Venutian is that the gear ratios in the 6X6 drive output have to replicate the final ratios of the regular (front "A" axle and rear "B" axle). The simplest way is to have a single ratio that matches the low ratio main output (as you described), if however you want to match the high and low ratios you have to also match the final output of the two ratios and have a mechanism to both engage the output and change the 6X6 output ratios.

If you then decide that you want to change the high-ratio transfer gears, say 0.98:1 Perentie ratio to 1.12:1 Range Rover ratio you also have to machine a new set of 6X6 output gears to match the transfer box ratios.

If on the other hand decide to avoid to overly complex 6x6 output box, you can put a chain drive drop box (with a dog clutch to engage the "C" axle) after the rear output. With a drop box, you can engage high or Low ratio, change the gearsets or even drop in a completely different transmission and still retain the drive to the "C" axle matched to whatever ratios are engaged before it.

Is that sufficient understanding of the LT95 6X6 output?

With respect.

Diana

[wagoo]

Sorry Diana, but you are still not getting it.The additional low range gear does not clutch to the mainshaft gear like a normal PTO but drives off the intermediate gear as does the centre diff, so output speeds of the PTo replicate those of the centre diff. Please reread my previous post and/or go back to your LT95 diagram and study it more carefully.
As I said, LT95s are different to series and LT230s.
Wagoo.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sorry Wagoo

Please go back to my previous post.

It doesn't matter what transfer box it is, the drop box will always be simpler and end up cheaper in the long run.

Diana

[wagoo]

Sorry Wagoo

Please go back to my previous post.

It doesn't matter what transfer box it is, the drop box will always be simpler and end up cheaper in the long run.

Diana
Your comment above and below are incorrect when pertaining to the LT95.
The fact that you still fail to or don't want to understand the geartrain layout still surprises me Diana.
Wagoo.

[123rover50]

I have thought about this too. For its original application for a powered trailer. Here is a pic from underneath from my thread Chev V8 to MSA.
You can see how they mesh and drive no matter which range is selected.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/381.jpg
I have not bolted up the bottom PTO here but you can see the sprocket on the mainshaft gear

[weeds]

i always confused when it comes to gearboxs/t-case and PTO......

having driven 6x6's for thousands of km's i thought the vacumm centre diff lock provided positive drive to all three axles when required and the additional PTO drive hanging off the bottom provided drive for the winch only??

will have a closer look at it all tomorrow night

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Then I have no idea what this thread is about.

You don't want a PTO for an LT95 that has a 6X6 output fitted.

You don't need a 6X6 output for a LT95.

[101RRS]

i thought the 6x6 or powered trailer drive was taken from the rear output at the top of the tfr case (where you put the overdrive). From this position you get whatever speed the 4x4 drive gets. If you want to run a drum winch at the front you use the chain driven pto from the bottom of the tfr case. If you have a 101 the pto to drive the chassis mounted winch also comes off the bottom of the tfr case but is gear driven with a 90 degree change in drive so the drive comes out the side not front or rear.

The 101 powered trailer drive comes out the top pto spot and I think the perenties are the same but I am not sure.

I would have thought that copying the 6x6 perenti drive arrangement would be easiest.

Garry

[isuzurover]

Then I have no idea what this thread is about.

You don't want a PTO for an LT95 that has a 6X6 output fitted.

You don't need a 6X6 output for a LT95.

As I read it, Bill wants to know if anyone has made their own 6x6 LT95 from a couple of 4x4 LT95s.

Sounds like a good project Bill - how much to make one for me while you are at it?

The 6x6 LT95 setup is ingenious, and far better than any other alternative IMHO.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wagoo

It has been so long since I opened a LT95 (1984) I had forgotten the peculiarities. Serves me right. (Thanks 123rover50 for reminding me.)

However, yes I have purchased a bottom power take off for a LT95 from Anthony Johnson in Melbourne to swap for an LT230 PTO with a so called mate for his perentie prototype for which he has the bottom PTO but I've never received the LT230 PTO (nor the LT85/LT230 gearbox I paid for) in return. So I do know the price and rarity of them.

Back to my original post, in the absence of a genuine bottom PTO, you should be able to use a second mainshaft gear in constant mesh with the middle gear on the intermediate shaft running on a parallel shaft mounted to the bottom cover.

Diana

[wagoo]

As I read it, Bill wants to know if anyone has made their own 6x6 LT95 from a couple of 4x4 LT95s.

Sounds like a good project Bill - how much to make one for me while you are at it?

The 6x6 LT95 setup is ingenious, and far better than any other alternative IMHO.
B100dy keyb0ard:mad: Y0u g0t it in 0ne Ben; I've g0t a cu0p1e 0f spare transmissi0ns and wi11 have a bit 0f a p1ay this aftern00n,The way I see it at this stage, a permanent1y driven PT0 is re1ative1y easy t0 c0bb1e up fr0m spare bits and b0bs,
Making it disc0nnectab1e is where it w0u1d pr0bab1y inv01ve a bit m0re w0rk and extra bits machined up,
Wag00,

[isuzurover]

B100dy keyb0ard:mad: Y0u g0t it in 0ne Ben; I've g0t a cu0p1e 0f spare transmissi0ns and wi11 have a bit 0f a p1ay this aftern00n,The way I see it at this stage, a permanent1y driven PT0 is re1ative1y easy t0 c0bb1e up fr0m spare bits and b0bs,
Making it disc0nnectab1e is where it w0u1d pr0bab1y inv01ve a bit m0re w0rk and extra bits machined up,
Wag00,

Bill, there it a great thread on Outerlimits about home made disconnects (for toyotas, but they may be able to be grafted onto a landie.

What would it drive like and what would the tyre wear be like if you made both rear wheels constant drive and the front axle selectable?

[wagoo]

Bill, there it a great thread on Outerlimits about home made disconnects (for toyotas, but they may be able to be grafted onto a landie.

What would it drive like and what would the tyre wear be like if you made both rear wheels constant drive and the front axle selectable?
Ben,

I think a lightish relatively long wheelbase vehicle would be ok with permanent tandem drive, I used to operate my old 6x6 in permanent tandem drive even though I had a disconnect, and that was quite short , anyway, after a bit of measuring and juggling of parts I would guess that anyone with a lathe and a drill could make this without the need to have any shafts made or any resplining done.

I don't have a lathe, and it would be some time before i can borrow the use of one, but I estimate a machinist could probably make up one of these in a few hours once firm dimensions have been worked out: i hope you can follow my general description of the conversion as i see it: I’ve left out minor details to reduce confusion at this early stage
basically, a complete front output housing with shaft, centre difflock dog clutch and vacuum unit gets bolted to a spare rear output housing via a 4 cm thick adaptor plate: a scrap centre diff carrier, internal condition not important, gets its rear bearing journal cut off and all the splines except the ones for the difflock machined off so that the front bearing journal can be machined back about 80mm closer to the gear flange:this bearing has a bigger id to fit over the slightly reduced diameter of the difflock splines, but same OD as the standard rear output bearing (this bearing takes rearward end thrust) an additional and identical bearing in the original location on the nose of the centre diff carrier is fitted in the adaptor plate. The other side of the carrier that had its journal cut off gets bored out to accept the outer race of a tapered roller bearing, the inner race, sleeved down to fit the gearbox mainshaft tail bearing journal: with the other 2 bearings 80mm apart, this bearing probably won't see much side thrust, but will take forward end thrust. The bolt on low range gear gets fitted to the opposite side of the carrier flange, with a machined up spigot ring with unbrako bolts. With this arrangement the driveflange for the 3rd axle propshaft sits about 30cm behind the rear face of the transfercase. This obviously has disconnect via the difflock unit.

Wagoo

[isuzurover]

BEN,
I THINK A 1iGHTISH RE1ATIVE1Y 10NG WHEE1BASE VEHIC1E W0U1D BE 0K WITH PERMANENT TANDEM DRIVE, I USED T0 0PERATE MY 01D 6x6 IN PERMANENT TANDEM DRIVE EVEN TH0UGH I HAD A DISC0NNECT,AND THAT WAS QUITE SH0RT ,
ANYWAY, AFTER A BIT 0F MEASURING AND JUGG1iNG 0F PARTS I W0U1D GUESS THAT ANY0NE WITH A 1ATHE AND A DRi11 C0U1D MAKE THIS WITH0UT THE NEED T0 HAVE ANY SHAFTS MADE 0R ANY RESP1iNING D0NE
I D0N'T HAVE A 1ATHE, AND IT W0U1D BE S0ME TIME BEF0RE I CAN B0RR0W THE USE 0F 0NE, BUT I ESTIMATE A MACHINEST C0U1D PR0BAB1Y MAKE UP 0NE 0F THESE IN A FEW H0URS 0NCE FIRM DIMENSI0NS HAVE BEEN W0RKED 0UT: I H0PE Y0U CAN F0110W MY GENERA1 DESCRIPTI0N 0F THE C0NVERSI0N AS I SEE IT: I'VE 1EFT 0UT MIN0R DETAi1S T0 REDUCE C0NFUSI0N AT THIS EAR1Y STAGE
BASICA11Y, A C0MP1ETE FR0NT 0UTPUT H0USING WITH SHAFT, CENTRE DIFF10CK D0G C1UTCH AND VACUUM UNIT GETS B01TED T0 A SPARE REAR 0UTPUT H0USING VIA A 4 CM THICK ADAPT0R P1ATE: A SCRAP CENTRE DIFF CARRIER, INTERNA1 C0NDITI0N N0T IMP0RTANT, GETS ITS REAR BEARING J0URNA1 CUT 0FF AND A11 THE SP1iNES EXCEPT THE 0NES F0R THE DIFF10CK MACHINED 0FF S0 THAT THE FR0NT BEARING J0URNA1 CAN BE MACHINED BACK AB0UT 80MM C10SER T0 THE GEAR F1ANGE:THIS BEARING HAS A BIGGER ID T0 FIT 0VER THE S1iGHT1Y REDUCED DIAMETER 0F THE DIFF10CK SP1iNES, BUT SAME 0D AS THE STANDARD REAR 0UTPUT BEARING:THIS BEARING TAKES REARWARD END THRUST: AN ADDITI0NA1 AND IDENTICA1 BEARING IN THE 0RIGINA1 10CATI0N 0N THE N0SE 0F THE CENTRE DIFF CARRIER IS FITTED IN THE ADAPT0R P1ATE:
THE 0THER SIDE 0F THE CARRIER THAT HAD ITS J0URNA1 CUT 0FF GETS B0RED 0UT T0 ACCEPT THE 0UTER RACE 0F A TAPERED R011ER BEARING, THE INNER RACE, S1EEVED D0WN T0 FIT THE GEARB0X MAINSHAFT TAi1 BEARING J0URNA1: wITH THE 0THER 2 BEARINGS 80MM APART, THIS BEARING PR0BAB1Y W0N'T SEE MUCH SIDE THRUST, BUT Wi11 TAKE F0WARD END THRUST:THE B01T 0N 10W RANGE GEAR GETS FITTED T0 THE 0PP0SITE SIDE 0F THE CARRIER F1ANGE,WITH A MACHINED UP SPIGG0T RING WITH UNBRAK0 B01TS:
WITH THIS ARRANGEMENT THE DRIVEF1ANGE F0R THE 3RD AX1E PR0PSHAFT SITS AB0UT 30 CMS BEHIND THE REAR FACE 0F THE TRANSFERCASE:THIS 0BVI0US1Y HAS DISC0NNECT VIA THE DIFF10CK UNIT
WAG00


Bill - I think I follow all that. However it was bloody hard to read in capitals and 000s. Happy to post you an old keybard I have spare if you need one?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Bill

I sometimes wonder if it would be a useful mod to put a viscous coupling in the drive to the "C" axle? That way it would give some slip for highway use, but still sufficient traction for most off-road applications.

Diana

[Tank]

I am ignorant on the matter of LR 6wd, I was wondering why you couldn't do it like the bogey drive on trucks with drive for the rear axle coming out the back of the front diff, which also has a transfer type diff lock mounted above the front axle pinion, this diff operates like the LR centre (full time 4wd) diff and can also be locked, Regards Frank.

[isuzurover]

I am ignorant on the matter of LR 6wd, I was wondering why you couldn't do it like the bogey drive on trucks with drive for the rear axle coming out the back of the front diff, which also has a transfer type diff lock mounted above the front axle pinion, this diff operates like the LR centre (full time 4wd) diff and can also be locked, Regards Frank.

As Bill has posted many times, either of these options severely limit articulation. Not an issue on trucks...

[JDNSW]

Bill

I sometimes wonder if it would be a useful mod to put a viscous coupling in the drive to the "C" axle? That way it would give some slip for highway use, but still sufficient traction for most off-road applications.

Diana

In the Perentie setup, the 'C' axle is only engaged when the difflock is activated. In other words, on the highway it is a 6x4, but with the front two axles engaged with a diff between them. While this is a little unconventional, it is a bit hard to see where you would need all axles driving but be concerned about the centre diff being locked.

John

[wagoo]

THANKS F0R FIXING THAT UP F0R ME DIANA: N0 I'M N0T HAVING A 1END, THIS IS HARD T0 D0:MY KEYB0ARD IS FA11iNG T0 PIECES AND I'VE 10ST MY 0Hs, E11s, NINES AND FU11 ST0PS:
I'M ATTEMPTING T0 DESIGN THIS PT0 USING STANDARD THR0WAWAY C0MP0NENTS, BUT I'M N0T G0ING T0 BUi1D AN0THER 6X6 MYSE1F, JUST DESIGNING IT F0R S0ME0NE E1SE WH0 WANTS T0 BUi1D 0NE AND T0 KEEP THE 01D GREY MATTER ACTIVE:
I'M THINKING THE Mi1iTARY HAVE PR0BAB1Y G0T STACKS 0F THESE 6X6 DRIVES IN THEIR SPARE PARTS ST0CK AND WHEN THEY DISP0SE 0F THE TRUCKS AND PARTS THE DRIVES Wi11 SE11 F0R PEANUTS:
WAG00:

[Tank]

Ben, I've never looked under a 6x6 Land Rover, but if that pic on previous page indicates that there are 2 tailshafts, then the one to the rear diff would seem to be ridiculously long and I would imagine it would run above the front diff housing. That to me seems to be a limiting factor for articulation of both axles. Whereas the bogey truck setup found on most 4x2 trucks seems to work well on 6x6 military trucks, do you have a pic of the Land Rover 6x6 setup, would be interested to see, I did have a pic of a Ford F250 setup with bogey just like the trucks have and it was brilliant off road, will see if I can dig it up, BTW this is the first time I have seen Bill's posts on this subject, Regards Frank.

[roverrescue]

Bill,
Im no machinist but Im happy to make chips on the lathe for you if you send me bits and a drawing of what needs doing. Dont have a big lathe (12x36 in the old money) but its well big enough to throw landy gearbox components. I have tungsten carbide tooling and flood coolant.

S

[JDNSW]

Ben, I've never looked under a 6x6 Land Rover, but if that pic on previous page indicates that there are 2 tailshafts, then the one to the rear diff would seem to be ridiculously long and I would imagine it would run above the front diff housing. That to me seems to be a limiting factor for articulation of both axles. Whereas the bogey truck setup found on most 4x2 trucks seems to work well on 6x6 military trucks, do you have a pic of the Land Rover 6x6 setup, would be interested to see, I did have a pic of a Ford F250 setup with bogey just like the trucks have and it was brilliant off road, will see if I can dig it up, BTW this is the first time I have seen Bill's posts on this subject, Regards Frank.

The tailshaft to the 'C' axle has a centre bearing on top of the 'B' axle with an extra two U-joints and sliding joint. The diff on this axle is on the left rather than the right, and I doubt the drive is a limiting factor on articulation. This will be limited by the leaf springs, and will be somewhat larger than Series Landrovers which use the same spring, because of the rocking beam linking the springs on the two axles. However, the effective articulation will be a little less than it otherwise would be, because of the wider track.

John

[wagoo]

Perentie 6x6 articulation is very poor to say the least.But the long primary wheelbase,rear overhang, staggered offset rear diffs and ground clearance sapping underslung leaf springs suggest that cross country mobility wasn't very high on the designers priority list, rather than heavy, bulky load carrying ability
.The two piece propshaft with the centre bearing mounted high on the chassis is not condusive to good articulation either, and required that the front of the rearmost propshaft be fitted with a double cardan joint, that from experience with civilian Landy 6x6s, have a short service life.I would have thought that mounting the centre bearing on the axle tube of the leading rear axle, and splitting the angles between both propshafts, ala Studebaker and GMCs would have eliminated the need for the double cardan joint, in addition to permitting greater interaxle articulation, should a proper cross country suspension be fitted.
Even this arrangement doesn't give what I would call great articulation.
For example, even if the rearmost propshaft was fitted with 40 degree universal joints and it could be setup so that the U joints were straight with the vehicle on level ground, the most axle travel that could be had would be 13'' down and 13'' up. Assuming a static bumpstop clearance of say 6'' this translates to only 19'' of bogie articulation.Edit, thought about it some more and it should be able to get 26'', but the final 7'' of droop would be just the weight of the axle assembly providing traction, not an equal share of the rear vehicle mass..
The calculations are based on leaf springs keeping the axles parrallel throughout range of travel, an axle spacing of 39'' minus 13'' for the pinion length of a Salisbury diff, giving a propshaft length of 26''flange to flange, leaving a distance of around 22'' between universal joints.
The best drive arrangement for articulation, that still employed conventional axles i've seen was on the old Aus army AACO Internationals, with a vertical gear driven pinion mounted drop box on each rear axle. The propshaft u joints were almost straight, and the shaft was nearly as long as the axle spacing.

Bill.

[wagoo]

Bill,
Im no machinist but Im happy to make chips on the lathe for you if you send me bits and a drawing of what needs doing. Dont have a big lathe (12x36 in the old money) but its well big enough to throw landy gearbox components. I have tungsten carbide tooling and flood coolant.

S
Thanks for the offer S. I do have access to a lathe about 60km from here, but for the next month or so I will be very busy with bushfire prevention work on my property before summer, so won't be able to concentrate too much on the PTO until after then.
Regards, Bill.

[TDman]

I am ignorant on the matter of LR 6wd, I was wondering why you couldn't do it like the bogey drive on trucks with drive for the rear axle coming out the back of the front diff, which also has a transfer type diff lock mounted above the front axle pinion, this diff operates like the LR centre (full time 4wd) diff and can also be locked, Regards Frank.

So would this work if the diffs were centred as per Nissan Patrol and hung on a leaf spring as per a truck with the ends on the axle and being centre pivoted?
I would have thought that inter axle moment would not be to extreme and with the diffs in the centre the diffs would not move apart that much with articulation.
The concern would be making sure that the primary axle did not foul its UJ as the drive shaft would move a considerable amount.
Just a thought.

TD

[wagoo]

So would this work if the diffs were centred as per Nissan Patrol and hung on a leaf spring as per a truck with the ends on the axle and being centre pivoted?
I would have thought that inter axle moment would not be to extreme and with the diffs in the centre the diffs would not move apart that much with articulation.
The concern would be making sure that the primary axle did not foul its UJ as the drive shaft would move a considerable amount.
Just a thought.

TD

Sam,as you will be aware, there are 2 modes of articulation when referring to tandems drive bogies. there is lateral articulation that you get with any vehicle. And there is interaxle bogie articulation when a tandem set has to climb a steep bank,crest an abrupt obstacle such as a sharp hill , hummock, large log etc.It is the lack of interaxle articulation on most tandem drive arrangements that ultimately defeats them in serious cross country terrain, and I suspect is one of the reasons multi axled vehicles are rarely seen in the offroad competition scene with the exception of the heavier weight classes such as European Truck Trials.
The International AACO design I mentioned before would transmit drive through a huge amount of interaxle articulation, that in practical terms would only be limited by the chassis rails restricting the axles uptravel.
The chain driven walking beams, ala road grader that you are considering making would not restrict wheel movement in this way.
Bill.