HS 2.8L TGV - any opinions ?

[DRanged]

Hey all

Anybody actually have one of these engines in their vehicle. Just interested to see if it performs as stated. May suit a future venture.

Justin

[rangieman]

Hey all

Anybody actually have one of these engines in their vehicle. Just interested to see if it performs as stated. May suit a future venture.

Justin
Jase was the man here in vic that had a couple of these as well as selling them
Shoot him a pm although i havent seen him here for a while so its anyone,s guess;)

[dullbird]

someone on here has just recently brought a disco from someone with this engine in it

[Sleepy]

someone on here has just recently brought a disco from someone

That narrows it down DB:p:D

[dullbird]

That narrows it down DB:p:D

wasn't that long ago sleepy he brought it for his dad.......

EDIT: found it http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/72795-97-disco-hs2-8-a.html#post911618

[rangieman]

wasn't that long ago sleepy he brought it for his dad.......
Thats getting closer :p;)

[dullbird]

well I see my post was eventually more help than all yours put together ;)

[rangieman]

well I see my post was eventually more help than all yours put together ;)
Was it realy :Rolling: ;)

[dullbird]

mmmmm I think so you dont even know the guy you suggested is even active on the forum.....So I guess that means yes it is :D

[Sleepy]

Nearly as good as that post about the thingamy with the do-hickey. You know!:D:p

[dullbird]

Nearly as good as that post about the thingamy with the do-hickey. You know!:D:p
Nearly but not quite;)

[rangieman]

mmmmm I think so you dont even know the guy you suggested is even active on the forum.....So I guess that means yes it is :D
Well he was ..................................... 20 years ago:angel:

[dullbird]

:Rolling:

[rangieman]

I did manage to drop a name , you could,nt remember the other person;):wasntme:

[dullbird]

my dad is bigger than your dad!!!.....I produced a post that gave the name, pictures of the car other peoples views and a contactable point to try and get what he is asking for ;)

I can drop a name.....here we go...BOB! I reckon there may of been a bob on here one time....say around 20 years ago that may or may not of had one but dont know if he is still active :lol2:

BUT HEY thanks for the info :Rolling:

[rangieman]

my dad is bigger than your dad!!!.....I produced a post that gave the name, pictures of the car other peoples views and a contactable point to try and get what he is asking for ;)

I can drop a name.....here we go...BOB! I reckon there may of been a bob on here one time....say around 20 years ago that may or may not of had one but dont know if he is still active :lol2:

BUT HEY thanks for the info :Rolling:
OUCH :eek2:
My dad has passed so maybe your dad is bigger
Ill live with that

[dullbird]

actually I dont even know my dad so you win :lol2:

[rangieman]

actually I dont even know my dad so you win :lol2:
It was,nt a win or lose situation :cool: Its always nice to be of some sort of help;):p

[rick130]

Sidestepping the frivolities :D

PM unimformed, Serg has a 2.8TGV in his Defender.

[d@rk51d3]

OK,

as DB was kind enough to point out.....


Yes, we just bought a Disco with the International 2.8

So far we are very happy with it, although we have never driven a LR diesel in any shape or form (other than an old series 2.25 - 20 odd years ago)

It was also pointed out to us that we ony had the wastegate version of the motor, and not the "you beaut" variable vane turbo (or whatever it's actually called:p).

Still, we have found the economy to be great. Although being mated to an auto gearbox (zf - 4 speed), it still out-performs the (classic) Rangie in both performance and economy. In fact, running the disco on Diesel, is working out cheaper than the Rangie on LPG.

Stick it onto a manual box, and I think she'd ho even harder.

Apparently this is the engine of choice for the middle east LR exports. Tougher than the 300tdi, more power and torque, more reliable.

Time will tell.

[FLINTSTONE]

My first post.

Bruce Davis was at the Castle Hill Land Rover Expo 25 Sept 11.

He had a Defender, Discovery and Rangie with new 2.8 engines fitted to each.

He does engine swaps, Drive in Drive out with new 2.8 International engine all done $20000. Workshop on Annangrove Road. Annangrove NSW.

Has anyone lately had any experience with this motor?

Bruce said it will pull the 2.4T caravan that I'd like to get in the future OK.

I have a manual 96 Disco tdi fully kitted out to my liking but would prefer a defender for the extra room. I'm sitting on the fence, re-engine disco, buy an approx 2007(td4) defender and re-engine? Can anyone offer any advice?

[101RRS]

Why would you re-engine a $5000 disco with a $20,000 engine and then still have a disco worth about $6000. Also why pull the engine out of a late model Puma and put one of these engines in - most likely not legal for that vintage vehicle anyway.

I thought the 2.8 engine was no longer being made (at least in the form you are looking at) and parts are difficult to come by.

This would be a far better option :twisted: eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170703803764'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

Garry

[Sleepy]

This would be a far better option :twisted: eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170703803764'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)


That'd go nice in the 101:twisted:......or the Defender....go nice in just about anything:twisted:

[superquag]

... and lots of other nice engines for all budgets...:p

[Hokoman]

My first post.

Bruce Davis was at the Castle Hill Land Rover Expo 25 Sept 11.

He had a Defender, Discovery and Rangie with new 2.8 engines fitted to each.

He does engine swaps, Drive in Drive out with new 2.8 International engine all done $20000. Workshop on Annangrove Road. Annangrove NSW.

Has anyone lately had any experience with this motor?

Bruce said it will pull the 2.4T caravan that I'd like to get in the future OK.

I have a manual 96 Disco tdi fully kitted out to my liking but would prefer a defender for the extra room. I'm sitting on the fence, re-engine disco, buy an approx 2007(td4) defender and re-engine? Can anyone offer any advice?

hi Flintstone,
my 3rd post ! Just joined today. I've just tested one of these engines in a 99 Disco Auto at MD Engineering in the UK. I don't have a lot of experience with Landrovers but it struck me as excellent in every sense. I bought a 96 130 recently with a 300 Tdi donk and I've driven a mate's 110 in the bush quite a bit. I also have a Nissan Patrol 3.0. TD. The 2.8L creams the Patrol IMHO.
I am thinking of importing a 2.8L with the larger Intercooler, radiator and Heavy Duty Clutch + Mantec Snorkel. Price including shipping door to door is roughly 6600 pounds which equates to Oz$ 10,146. You have to add Customs Charges 5% and GST 10% to that. Fitting is usually around $2000. If your old 300TDi is in good nick I think you can sell it for around 2-3K but I'm unsure about that.
I've been told the standard exhaust is fine - a new header comes with the kit.
Check out this website :
www.mdengineering (http://www.%3Cb%3Emdengineering%3C/b%3E).co.uk

By the way, I understand Bruce Davis has an excellent reputation if you were to go that route. But it seems quite expensive. On the other hand no importing hassles and possible further expenses from agent/port ripoffs.

Hope that helps.

[Hokoman]

Flintstone,

just noticed you were thinking of putting the 2.8L into a 2007 Defender.
Not sure that's really practical.
The main reason I'm going this route is because I bought a fairly ragged 1996 130 Tdi - I wanted a non-electronic Defender for International travel. Otherwise I'd stick to a low mileage TD5 or the newer Puma I think. Horses 4 Courses.

[UncleHo]

I met a farmer from Wamuran S.E.Qld that had a 2.8 in his 130, it is a typical farm vehicle worked hard,and he thinks it is the "Bees Knees" carts pineapples down to Caboolture for transport interstate and says it is heaps better than the 300TDI that was in it.

[Tank]

You can buy a kit from a mob in England that consists of (All new) 2.8 crank, sleeves, rods, pistons, rings, bearings and all gaskets and seals along with instructions for your engine rebuilder to fit the sleeves for $2800.
Also on eBay was a brand new Range Rover Sport Twin Turbo V8 engine with all ancillaries for 12K+, I know which engine I would buy and save around $8K into the bargain, Regards Frank.

[PAT303]

My first post.

Bruce Davis was at the Castle Hill Land Rover Expo 25 Sept 11.

He had a Defender, Discovery and Rangie with new 2.8 engines fitted to each.

He does engine swaps, Drive in Drive out with new 2.8 International engine all done $20000. Workshop on Annangrove Road. Annangrove NSW.

Has anyone lately had any experience with this motor?

Bruce said it will pull the 2.4T caravan that I'd like to get in the future OK.

I have a manual 96 Disco tdi fully kitted out to my liking but would prefer a defender for the extra room. I'm sitting on the fence, re-engine disco, buy an approx 2007(td4) defender and re-engine? Can anyone offer any advice?

20K on 96 disco?. Pat

[Hokoman]

20K on 96 disco?. Pat

Yup, hard to argue with that.

If you had the same swap done in the UK by MD Engineering it would come out roughly half that for the basic package .....

[disco gazza]

Hi Tank,
Would you know which mob in England has the kit?

Thanks
cheers
disco gazza
92disco tdi :D

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Tank,
Would you know which mob in England has the kit? disco gazza :D

x2

Cheers Arthur

[Tank]

x2

Cheers Arthur
Just checked, still on eBay, no sleeves though (my mistake) but cheaper @ $2300, here's the site, eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170372094176'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648)

Regards Frank.

[Tank]

And here is the Twin Turbo V8.
Range Rover 2011 V8 , 4.4L Super Diesel Twin Turbo Engi... (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170703803764'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)


Regards Frank.

[frantic]

Get a tdv6 2.7 or 3.0 and a kit to install it:
3.0 TD V6 Diesel Engine Information (http://www.bodylogicuk.com/90265/info.php?p=12)

either import a 3.0 from the u.k new as jag sell them OR wait for a ford territory diesel to be written of as they have the 2.7tdv6;)

[Hokoman]

Get a tdv6 2.7 or 3.0 and a kit to install it:
And here is the Twin Turbo V8.
Range Rover 2011 V8 , 4.4L Super Diesel Twin Turbo Engi... (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170703803764'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

When I have a problem in Upper Bangbang in Northern Laos I can just see the local hilltribe mechanic nodding sagely at that one ..... why, yes sir, I know exactly where your problem lies ..... funnily enough we had three in last week that were very similar ..... :eek::o:p

First time I ever used an emoticon - sorry if excessive ..... :cool:;):(

[isuzurover]

Get a tdv6 2.7 or 3.0 and a kit to install it:
And here is the Twin Turbo V8.
Range Rover 2011 V8 , 4.4L Super Diesel Twin Turbo Engi... (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170703803764'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

When I have a problem in Upper Bangbang in Northern Laos I can just see the local hilltribe mechanic nodding sagely at that one ..... why, yes sir, I know exactly where your problem lies ..... funnily enough we had three in last week that were very similar ..... :eek::o:p

First time I ever used an emoticon - sorry if excessive ..... :cool:;):(

Agreed, however in that case you shouldn't be considering a 2.8TGV either - what if you have a problem in the middle of nowhere that requires (rare as the proverbial) replacement parts...?

I would consider an engine like the 4JB1T 2.8L - which is quite common throughout most of the world.

[Hokoman]

Hi Tank,
Would you know which mob in England has the kit?

Thanks
cheers
disco gazza
92disco tdi :D

Disco & Arthur,

this is the same mob I visited recently in the UK. Manager's name is David Jackson. Vey nice fella, very helpful. If you want to call him he'll go through all the pros and cons - seems to be very straight up. They are selling most of the 2.8 donks to crop-sprayers now apparently. About 30% of their sales are to Landrover owners. But as I noted before, their swap is considerably cheaper than doing it in Oz. Perhaps half.

Website :
www.mdengineering (http://www.%3Cb%3Emdengineering%3C/b%3E).co.uk

cheers

[Tank]

Disco & Arthur,

this is the same mob I visited recently in the UK. Manager's name is David Jackson. Vey nice fella, very helpful. If you want to call him he'll go through all the pros and cons - seems to be very straight up. They are selling most of the 2.8 donks to crop-sprayers now apparently. About 30% of their sales are to Landrover owners. But as I noted before, their swap is considerably cheaper than doing it in Oz. Perhaps half.

Website :
www.mdengineering (http://www.%3Cb%3Emdengineering%3C/b%3E).co.uk

cheers
The email address you gave is not accessible, is it correct or do you have another, Regards Frank.

[TonyC]

The email address you gave is not accessible, is it correct or do you have another, Regards Frank.

It's in the post correctly but gets stuffed up when I click on it.
Try this.

Land Rover conversions - M&D Engineering (http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/)

Tony

[Hokoman]

Greetings all,

I'm new here, have searched posts quite a bit on this topic and have found info but not enough. So apologies if I haven't searched correctly and this has all been discussed to death. I hope this is the right forum ?

Recently I bought a 96 130 trayback I want to build up as an overlander for camping.

The question is : what do people think of this engine - the 2.8L ?
I've already heard from a couple of members different stories, ranging from very excellent to some who have had over-heating problems.

I'm wondering if those who might have had temperature issues on these motors are fitted with the larger radiator/intercooler now offered ?

I've worked out that I can import from the UK & fit a 2.8L with the Variable Vane Turbo (including the optional extras Heavy Duty Clutch, Large Radiator, Large Intercooler, Mantek snorkle and airconditioning adaptor) for around 13K at present exchange rate. I can sell the old motor for 2k - it probably needs 2k doing to it if I keep it (I'm not a good mechanic so have to get everything done) so if I do a little creative accounting I can say I'm putting a new, more powerful motor into my 130 for $9k. I reckon that's pretty good.

BUT, for 9k, if I end up having trouble then it's not pretty good; it's pretty bad. I'll look silly - or rather sillier.

I recently was in the UK and tested a Disco Auto with the 2.8 and it was grrrreat. I have a Nissan Patrol 3.0L (which admittedly I'm not that keen on) and the Disco 2.8 combo is much superior.

I know Bruce Davis in Sydney does a swap for 20k and he's got a super reputation but I can't justify that sort of money in a '96 130.
9k I can!

Many thanks.

[Hokoman]

sorry Tank,

Tony seems to have sorted it - copy and paste usually works for a future ref.

[Hokoman]

Agreed, however in that case you shouldn't be considering a 2.8TGV either - what if you have a problem in the middle of nowhere that requires (rare as the proverbial) replacement parts...?

I would consider an engine like the 4JB1T 2.8L - which is quite common throughout most of the world.


Ah, I was just stumbling across this engine in fact looking for alternatives. Have read a couple of opinions that it's a bit noisy, a bit heavy but very strong - not so good on economy. I'll keep looking.
IsuzuRover - I take it you're happy with yours ? I'm just assuming you're running one.
Can I ask what in ?

[isuzurover]

Ah, I was just stumbling across this engine in fact looking for alternatives. Have read a couple of opinions that it's a bit noisy, a bit heavy but very strong - not so good on economy. I'll keep looking.
IsuzuRover - I take it you're happy with yours ? I'm just assuming you're running one.
Can I ask what in ?

I have a (factory fitted) 4BD1+T in my 110, very happy with that. I think your comments relate to the 4BD1???

The Grubb on here has a 90 with a 4JB1T (2.8L jackaroo/rodeo engine), I am thinking of fitting one to one of my landies. They are not significantly heavier or noisier than a 300Tdi, however they are much stronger.

[Hokoman]

Thanks for that - can you recommend a supplier ?

Which Isuzu do you think is better for a 96 130, keeping in mind I want to use this overseas ?

I take your point about parts for the 2.8L HGV but then I'd probably have to ship in parts anyway, even if I had a standard 300Tdi, given the places I'll be visiting. And from what I've heard about LR Service generally :mad:

Given there's just one supplier in the UK it certainly narrows down the field though !!! However, they do have a plentiful supply. On the other hand, will they still be going after 5 years ? Possibly not. Something to think about. David Jackson of MD Engineering told me they had secured a deal with the Brazil factory to be the main/only supplier of these engines. I think the deal was that they need to order 50 a year. That's something I should check on.

[isuzurover]

Thanks for that - can you recommend a supplier ?

Which Isuzu do you think is better for a 96 130, keeping in mind I want to use this overseas ?

I take your point about parts for the 2.8L HGV but then I'd probably have to ship in parts anyway, even if I had a standard 300Tdi, given the places I'll be visiting. And from what I've heard about LR Service generally :mad:

Given there's just one supplier in the UK it certainly narrows down the field though !!! However, they do have a plentiful supply. On the other hand, will they still be going after 5 years ? Possibly not. Something to think about. David Jackson of MD Engineering told me they had secured a deal with the Brazil factory to be the main/only supplier of these engines. I think the deal was that they need to order 50 a year. That's something I should check on.

Dave_S and I drove a 4BD1-powered 110 through central america (Dave drove from vancouver-panama and we joined him for the ride back). We lost count of the number of isuzu and GMC trucks we saw powered by the exact same engine. Had we needed parts they would have been everywhere.

It depends where you want to go as to what is common. IME the 4BD1 is common in central america, US, and CAN. Likely also in asia. The 4JB1T was fitted to lots of vehicles in south east asia, europe (e.g. spain) etc, however is probably less common in the americas.

MD sell 4JB1T adaptor kits,

4BD1 kits though, your best bet is Sheldon (The Grubb) on here - then you get a (very strong) Isuzu gearbox as well.

[rick130]

[snip]
David Jackson of MD Engineering told me they had secured a deal with the Brazil factory to be the main/only supplier of these engines. I think the deal was that they need to order 50 a year. That's something I should check on.

That engine was out of the South American Ford Ranger and only discontinued about two years ago.

Apparently there are plenty in wrecking yards there, and MWM would still be supplying new spares, the 2.8HS only disappeared from their website about six months ago but it does seem about the only place in the English speaking world you can get bits now is MD.

There was someone in NZ supplying it too. I'll have a look through my bookmarks later, but personally I'd go an Isuzu too.

[Hokoman]

With regard to parts for the 2.8L, all is the same as the 300 Tdi, apart from Engine Block and it's internals - the Head is the same apart from the re-positioning of a couple of bolts. It's possible to order parts directly from International Brazil. MD Engineering have brought in 50 engines to the UK in the last 6 months alone. They say they intend to be in business for many years to come but obviously things can and do change.

So it would take quite a blow-up before needing to source back to either the UK or Brazil.

Even so, obviously there's not the same security as having an engine common everywhere. But it's not THAT bad.

[isuzurover]

With regard to parts for the 2.8L, all is the same as the 300 Tdi, apart from Engine Block and it's internals - the Head is the same apart from the re-positioning of a couple of bolts. It's possible to order parts directly from International Brazil. MD Engineering have brought in 50 engines to the UK in the last 6 months alone. They say they intend to be in business for many years to come but obviously things can and do change.

So it would take quite a blow-up before needing to source back to either the UK or Brazil.

Even so, obviously there's not the same security as having an engine common everywhere. But it's not THAT bad.

In theory they are almost the same, but I will bet there are a million minor differences - especially with the ancillaries. MD themselves state that the engine cannot be fitted without their kit.

You just need to look at the many differences in 300Tdi engines...

[Hokoman]

4BD1 kits though, your best bet is Sheldon (The Grubb) on here - then you get a (very strong) Isuzu gearbox as well.[/QUOTE]


Thanks kindly for that info - I'll look into it asap.

[TonyC]

Hi Hokoman,
You seem bent on getting rid of the 300Tdi. Why is that?

The 300Tdi is a good motor, There is some suggestion that they might wear big end bearings sooner than they should, I've heard of a couple of sets needing changing around the 250-300,000 Km mark, but it's a wear issue not a fail and leave you stuck on the side of the road issue. Valve lash caps is the other thing that has cropped up a few times, but their tiny and cheap, carry a spare set and change them along with the timing belt. Some folk advise a head gasket change "just in case" at around the 250,000 Km mark.

Fit a VNT to a 300Tdi and you will get a lot of the bottom end gain that the MWM has, kits are available.

The thing that will catastrophically kill a 300Tdi or a MWM 2.8 or a TD5 or quite possibly an Isuzu 4JB1T is a massive over heat, what ever motor you run you need:

1: A real temperature gauge, I run a VDO mechanical
2: A low coolant alarm, Engine Saver Land Rover Page (http://www.enginesaver.com.au/landy1.htm) , not what I run but, advertise on this site and people say good stuff about them.
3: Possibly a block temp alarm, for when you are not looking at the temp gauge.

If you are overlanding across the world, then it's not a race, the 300Tdi will be fine.


Tony

PS: I use to have an 4BD1 Isuzu County, loved it, and still miss it. A great big slow reliable under stressed lump of cast iron.

[rovercare]

http://m.gumtree.com.au/range-rover-turbo-diesel/v?adId=322477510

[loanrangie]

I reckon 13K is too much to spend on a 96, save some dough and fix up your tdi, add a vnt turbo and an upgraded intercoooler with a 2.5 " exhaust and you will be pushing close to 2.8 performance at 1/3 the cost.

[isuzurover]

...4BD1 Isuzu County.... A great big fast reliable under stressed lump of cast iron.


I fixed your post to make it applicable to 4BD1s with T's fitted.

[luke68]

Can anyone out there tell the difference between the 300tdi and the HS2.8?
eg; Bore X stroke ?
Different head?
Or is it as simple as getting the 2.8 crank and doing a rebuild of the tdi block?

Cheers

[TonyC]

I fixed your post to make it applicable to 4BD1s with T's fitted.

:D

Tony

[uninformed]

Different bore and stroke. Redesigned water/cooling galleries......

[rick130]

Can anyone out there tell the difference between the 300tdi and the HS2.8?
eg; Bore X stroke ?
Different head?
Or is it as simple as getting the 2.8 crank and doing a rebuild of the tdi block?

Cheers

As Serg said, larger bore, longer stroke.

Head is the same (all new 300Tdi heads are from the 2.8, it supposedly has better coolant flow too)

Crank is forged, rods are obviously different, bore spacing is the same as Land Rover so in theory you can bore out the 300Tdi block but, IMO the cylinder walls would be getting awfully thin, if the block has the tiniest bit of core shift (not uncommon in Land Rover blocks apparently) and you'd be cactus, but some firms in the UK sell the bits to do it.

I think the vacuum pump's on the back of the alternator on the 2.8 too, isn't it Serg ?

[d@rk51d3]

I reckon 13K is too much to spend on a 96, save some dough and fix up your tdi, add a vnt turbo and an upgraded intercoooler with a 2.5 " exhaust and you will be pushing close to 2.8 performance at 1/3 the cost.

That would be my advice.

Dad had a Disco with the 2.8
while it was a nice motor, obtaining parts was difficult/time consuming. Could be a nightmare doing a repair on a trip.
I'd stick with something more common.

[uninformed]

yes to Rick, Vac pump is on the back of the alt.

food for thought...how, in a 300tdi will you fit a larger Rad and intercooler? How close to a well working engine, given the whole engineered package of a 300tdi 130, is the tdi at stock??? ie start playing with it and you will see probelems you didnt see before, unless you spend $$$ as much as your 2.8....adding bits to an old engine even with rebuild, is not a new engine (like your 2.8 would be.) torque will still be different etc etc.

IMO I would price up to do an Isuzu option (3.9t) PROPERLY and see where that puts you. One thing I would do in the 300tdi if going to rebuild or put in a 2.8, is to get the Ashcroft short bellhousing and move the engine back...it will allow for a full width rad and full width intercooler without stacking forward of the stock location.

have you considered rebuilding a TD5? these seem to have a good rep as a well built engine, and most of the guru's here will know the idiosyncracies of them now....

remember more power = more fuel. My 2.8tgv returns 15lts/100km with a 1.8t dual axle trailer and this is 100km/hr hwy driving....this would be approx the same for no trailer running around town.

what a LR def needs is an engine about the physical size and weight of a tdi but producing 500nm. I know some of you will laugh and think that a ****, but if you use your defender as a work truck/4x4 and not a around the city statement you will understand....

the thing with LR is that you want more power, but the cooling system, clutch and gearbox are not up to it long term so need looking at also.But atleast the T/case, rear diff and front diff is.( dont worry about the front being weak in normal driving even with some more power)


must do's no matter what:

new aftermarket temp gauge, aftermarket EGT gauge, free flowing exhuast.

You may find your 2.8 running a bit hot in a unladen def with stock rad and intercooler no matter how good a condition they are in. You can get a lower cracking thermostat and get some cooling happening in the engine bay buy cutting some breathe holes in the guards.

good luck

[Dougal]

Is there any option to fit a larger radiator (petrol) and an intercooler in front?

[uninformed]

Is there any option to fit a larger radiator (petrol) and an intercooler in front?

Most tdi defenders have A/C, which means a condensor in front of the intercooler and rad as stock. My winch only has 10mm clearance from my condensor and that's after I removed the stock thermo fan and stock condensor and replaced then with a new condensor 6mm thicker and no fan...

There are slightly different options depending on ones priorities...but change any one thing and you will find change somewhere else..... And there is only one way to find out.

[Michael2]

VNT Turbo, new manifold & gaskets, and exhaust down pipe from a 2.8 are available NEW in Melbourne for $2,700.

I'm told it's a 2 hour job to fit. The motor will be more powerful than a TD5, but not as powerful as a chipped TD5. Top speed won't change much, but the turbo will become effective at 12-14,000 RPM, so it will perform better off road and hold gears longer.

I'd like to drive one before saving up for one.

[Casper]

VNT Turbo, new manifold & gaskets, and exhaust down pipe from a 2.8 are available NEW in Melbourne for $2,700.

I'm told it's a 2 hour job to fit. The motor will be more powerful than a TD5, but not as powerful as a chipped TD5. Top speed won't change much, but the turbo will become effective at 12-14,000 RPM, so it will perform better off road and hold gears longer.

I'd like to drive one before saving up for one.

That would be one well balanced Tdi to spin at 14000 Rpm :D

I would want to drive one before spending $2700 on it as well.

Mine is pretty good with a tweaked pump, well tuned, clearances done and straight through exhaust.

I would like more for towing but so far Im pretty happy with it.

Before changing motors etc, get everything right first like the pump timing, valve clearances and make sure the intercooler is clean, intercooler hoses are in good condition and your exhaust flows and then get an EGT guage and start adjusting the pump to get the best from it and you will be surprised what you can get out of it.

Be aware that once you start fiddling with pump tuning you may do a head gasket and find other things like wear in the gearbox and clutch.

Still it's worth doing though.

Cheers Casper

[Dougal]

Top speed won't change much, but the turbo will become effective at 12-14,000 RPM,

Man, that's fast.:D

[Hokoman]

Hi Hokoman,
You seem bent on getting rid of the 300Tdi. Why is that?

The 300Tdi is a good motor, There is some suggestion that they might wear big end bearings sooner than they should, I've heard of a couple of sets needing changing around the 250-300,000 Km mark, but it's a wear issue not a fail and leave you stuck on the side of the road issue. Valve lash caps is the other thing that has cropped up a few times, but their tiny and cheap, carry a spare set and change them along with the timing belt. Some folk advise a head gasket change "just in case" at around the 250,000 Km mark.

Fit a VNT to a 300Tdi and you will get a lot of the bottom end gain that the MWM has, kits are available.

The thing that will catastrophically kill a 300Tdi or a MWM 2.8 or a TD5 or quite possibly an Isuzu 4JB1T is a massive over heat, what ever motor you run you need:

1: A real temperature gauge, I run a VDO mechanical
2: A low coolant alarm, Engine Saver Land Rover Page (http://www.enginesaver.com.au/landy1.htm) , not what I run but, advertise on this site and people say good stuff about them.
3: Possibly a block temp alarm, for when you are not looking at the temp gauge.

If you are overlanding across the world, then it's not a race, the 300Tdi will be fine.


Tony

PS: I use to have an 4BD1 Isuzu County, loved it, and still miss it. A great big slow reliable under stressed lump of cast iron.

Tony,

fair point - and I'm quite a slow driver too. Used to be a big m/c user rushing everywhere at the sound of speed. After the Round Oz trip in 2008 in the Nissan Patrol I learnt the joys of cruising at 90 and not taking out a bank loan to pay for the next fill-up. That was when the fuel prices were sky high. 2.50 a litre up in the Kimberleys in some places.
Anyway, for odd reasons it suits me to use some Sterling saved up. Taking into account the crap exchange rate between Sterling and Oz $ now, I've calculated that if I sell the old donk for 2k, add on the 2k for work I might have done to it (or more) I can replace with a brand new 2.8 TGV for around 8k. I reckon that's alright. Yes, there are some issues with spare parts as has been pointed out, I might well regret this in the end and have to live with a fool's face... :D. Haven't completely decided yet, exploring some options, including keeping the engine. My mechanic says that's the best thing to do !

Thanks for all the comments - I'm in France at the moment and traveling around so not so good at replying. Great website. Has given me quite a few laughs.

[Hokoman]

yes to Rick, Vac pump is on the back of the alt.

food for thought...how, in a 300tdi will you fit a larger Rad and intercooler? How close to a well working engine, given the whole engineered package of a 300tdi 130, is the tdi at stock??? ie start playing with it and you will see probelems you didnt see before, unless you spend $$$ as much as your 2.8....adding bits to an old engine even with rebuild, is not a new engine (like your 2.8 would be.) torque will still be different etc etc.

IMO I would price up to do an Isuzu option (3.9t) PROPERLY and see where that puts you. One thing I would do in the 300tdi if going to rebuild or put in a 2.8, is to get the Ashcroft short bellhousing and move the engine back...it will allow for a full width rad and full width intercooler without stacking forward of the stock location.

have you considered rebuilding a TD5? these seem to have a good rep as a well built engine, and most of the guru's here will know the idiosyncracies of them now....

remember more power = more fuel. My 2.8tgv returns 15lts/100km with a 1.8t dual axle trailer and this is 100km/hr hwy driving....this would be approx the same for no trailer running around town.

what a LR def needs is an engine about the physical size and weight of a tdi but producing 500nm. I know some of you will laugh and think that a ****, but if you use your defender as a work truck/4x4 and not a around the city statement you will understand....

the thing with LR is that you want more power, but the cooling system, clutch and gearbox are not up to it long term so need looking at also.But atleast the T/case, rear diff and front diff is.( dont worry about the front being weak in normal driving even with some more power)


must do's no matter what:

new aftermarket temp gauge, aftermarket EGT gauge, free flowing exhuast.

You may find your 2.8 running a bit hot in a unladen def with stock rad and intercooler no matter how good a condition they are in. You can get a lower cracking thermostat and get some cooling happening in the engine bay buy cutting some breathe holes in the guards.

good luck

SORRY SORRY SORRY, am traveling in France so difficult to reply to my own post. Thank you all. Good points above - I was under the impression that the larger radiator and intercooler just went straight in - according to MD anyway. I'll check with them and quote your post. Yes, all those gauges important - I fitted a Boost to my Nissan Patrol a while ago and only then realised the boost sensor was faulty - replaced it and cleaned the Maf and all ok since and gives peace of mind, especially in a 3.0L Nissan with it's dubious reputation :mad:
I reckon I can get around 11l/100k with the new engine after talking with a couple of people in the UK. If you can get 15l/100k towing 1.8tons at 100kph then surely I should be able to average 11 sitting on 90 with 800kg on the tray ? I get 11.5 fully laden with the Patrol. I rarely in a rush cos I can never find me specs :eek:
I've done a new calculation on the cost of replacement and I reckon it's 8k which isn't bad. The problem with the Isuzu 4BDIT I've found out is you can't put it in a '96 LR because of Emission laws - can't step back. This from KLR in Kingsgrove Sydney.
I'm looking into other options, including keeping the present motor, which is actually ok, according to my mechanic anyway. He wouldn't mind me replacing it because he wants it ! But he does say he thinks it's only worth it if I can replace at the right price.

By the way, I found a new 4BD1T for $ 6,500 here :
WE HAVE A BRAND NEW 4BD1T MOTOR $6500 HERE PH DON 0421253500
Regards,
DON MURRAY

Queensland Motor Recyclers
77 Randolph ST
Rocklea
QLD 4106

Ph (07) 3274 4200 Fax (07) 3274 4201

Motor recyclers australia (http://www.qldmotorrecyclers.com.au)
don.m@qldmotorrecyclers.com.au

[Hokoman]

Can anyone out there tell the difference between the 300tdi and the HS2.8?
eg; Bore X stroke ?
Different head?
Or is it as simple as getting the 2.8 crank and doing a rebuild of the tdi block?

Cheers

If anyone wants info on the 2.8 TGV I have a folder full - please just PM or e-mail me.

[Hokoman]

have you considered rebuilding a TD5? these seem to have a good rep as a well built engine, and most of the guru's here will know the idiosyncracies of them now....



I avoided the TD5 because of some things I'd read in the past. But I have to admit, upon further investigation, that the TD 5 seems to be a pretty good motor. German friends of mine recently completed a 3 year round the world trip in one (110) without much trouble. My experience has been coloured by me owning a Nissan Patrol 3.0L ZD which some people hate and for good reasons - they can just go bang. I decided I wanted a simple non-electronic vehicle that can be worked on in most places. I do realise that replacing the standard motor with another that has limited parts availability could be seen as a contradiction by the polite and entirely stupid by the remaining 99%.

This is something I am working through ...... um .......

[wrinklearthur]

The 300Tdi is a good motor, There is some suggestion that they might wear big end bearings sooner than they should, I've heard of a couple of sets needing changing around the 250-300,000 Km mark, but it's a wear issue not a fail and leave you stuck on the side of the road issue. Valve lash caps is the other thing that has cropped up a few times, but their tiny and cheap, carry a spare set and change them along with the timing belt. Some folk advise a head gasket change "just in case" at around the 250,000 Km mark. Tony.
Hi Tony

I have found that the material, used in the construction of the big end bearing, as fitted to the 300TDi, does not last long, if the engine ever has had water contaminated oil.

Inspecting all of these bearing shells from a blown 300 TDi motor and comparing them to the bearings from a V8 Perkins, that also had water contamination, the exact same damage was caused to both motors.

The soft alloy bearing material, bonded to the steel shell had pock marked and delaminated, then balled up breaking the big end bolts, this let a conrod go, with it coming out through the side of the block.

This posting isn't a criticism of only the 300 TDi, but rather is a warning to those that have had water in their motors, of all types and makes.
They should have their motors bottom end looked at, if they don't want their motor to fail catastrophically.

Cheers Arthur

[Hokoman]

Dave_S and I drove a 4BD1-powered 110 through central america (Dave drove from vancouver-panama and we joined him for the ride back). We lost count of the number of isuzu and GMC trucks we saw powered by the exact same engine. Had we needed parts they would have been everywhere.

It depends where you want to go as to what is common. IME the 4BD1 is common in central america, US, and CAN. Likely also in asia. The 4JB1T was fitted to lots of vehicles in south east asia, europe (e.g. spain) etc, however is probably less common in the americas.

MD sell 4JB1T adaptor kits,

4BD1 kits though, your best bet is Sheldon (The Grubb) on here - then you get a (very strong) Isuzu gearbox as well.

Yes, thanks again, contacted Sheldon, and John D (bush_65) also, who have been great with advice. There doesn't seem to be much argument here, the Isuzu is the best way to go.
PROBLEM : i have a '96 130 and according to KLR who do swaps I can't replace with the 4BD1T cos it won't meet Emission Laws in a later vehicle. Which means either selling this vehicle and buying an older 130 or re-thinking the replacement motor idea with another Isuzu option, or steaming ahead with the 2.8TGV, or not doing anything. I think it was Winston Churchill who said when in doubt, do nothing. But could be wrong. He was probably quoting a British general from WW1.
ALSO, it seems the '96 Defender isn't as strong in the front end as earlier Defenders. Good to find out all this after buying what I thought was the perfect vehicle ! Nah, I'm sure it will be fine. For the record, my Landy mechanic agrees with the Isuzu option but reckons in the end the 2.8 TGV would be the easiest. As I said before, he did say it would be even easier to forget about it !!
But I can't, I've got the BUG now. That's the problem with retiring, you go looking for more problems .... :confused:

[rick130]

Hi Tony

I have found that the material, used in the construction of the big end bearing, as fitted to the 300TDi, does not last long, if the engine ever has had water contaminated oil.

Inspecting all of these bearing shells from a blown 300 TDi motor and comparing them to the bearings from a V8 Perkins, that also had water contamination, the exact same damage was caused to both motors.

The soft alloy bearing material, bonded to the steel shell had pock marked and delaminated, then balled up breaking the big end bolts, this let a conrod go, with it coming out through the side of the block.

This posting isn't a criticism of only the 300 TDi, but rather is a warning to those that have had water in their motors, of all types and makes.
They should have their motors bottom end looked at, if they don't want their motor to fail catastrophically.

Cheers Arthur

Arthur, some Tdi's just do big ends.

JC reckons there was a batch, appears to be the last six months of '98 that destroy big ends and cranks.

I had my shells let go and luckily didn't do the crank too and AFAIK no water had ever entered the engine.
I suspect high oil temps had something to do with it too, I don't trust the oil cooler is big enough.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/80134-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis.html

[PAT303]

Having had various vehicles and machines that had conversions done the last thing I would do is get a conversion done.If I was travelling into the unknown I would stick to a standard Tdi and standard vehicle in general and know the vehicle and carry spares and know how to fit them.If during your trip you have a problem simply contact one of the hundreds of LR suppliers,send you VIN and the correct part will arrive,the last thing you want when in trouble is to be explaining over a bad connection that you have a 96 Tdi with a Isuzu Trooper/ute whatever 2ltre something that has a clutch out of a something else that stuffed etc etc,been there in Oz so stuff that.LR's have been travelling the roads of the world for longer than most of us have been alive and my Tdi has 450,000k's on it so don't tell me they aren't good enough. Pat

[wrinklearthur]

Arthur, some Tdi's just do big ends.

JC reckons there was a batch, appears to be the last six months of '98 that destroy big ends and cranks.

I had my shells let go and luckily didn't do the crank too and AFAIK no water had ever entered the engine.
I suspect high oil temps had something to do with it too, I don't trust the oil cooler is big enough.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/80134-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis.html
Hi Rick130


Here's a couple of pics of a 300Tdi big end shell.
I wish I still had all my references on this, I'm unsure exactly what has precipitated this failure of the overlay, I suspect oil temp although there is no evidence of overheating in the journals, it could also be a vibration fatigue failure or just a poor bearing.
The overlay is lifting/delaminating in microscopically thin flakes ranging in size up to about 6mm across.
I'm sure someone like Dave will chime in soon.


Attached Thumbnailshttp://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/15750d1243243103t-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis-img_0038.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/15750d1243243103-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis-img_0038.jpg) http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/15751d1243243968t-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis-img_0039.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/15751d1243243968-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis-img_0039.jpg) http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/15752d1243245051t-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis-img_0040.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/15752d1243245051-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis-img_0040.jpg)




These pictures have the same markings that we found after both water damaged motors were pulled down and until somebody has a better explaination of how this damaged is caused, I would stick to the idea that it is water which is causing these marks.

Cheers Arthur

[Hokoman]

Having had various vehicles and machines that had conversions done the last thing I would do is get a conversion done.If I was travelling into the unknown I would stick to a standard Tdi and standard vehicle in general and know the vehicle and carry spares and know how to fit them.If during your trip you have a problem simply contact one of the hundreds of LR suppliers,send you VIN and the correct part will arrive,the last thing you want when in trouble is to be explaining over a bad connection that you have a 96 Tdi with a Isuzu Trooper/ute whatever 2ltre something that has a clutch out of a something else that stuffed etc etc,been there in Oz so stuff that.LR's have been travelling the roads of the world for longer than most of us have been alive and my Tdi has 450,000k's on it so don't tell me they aren't good enough. Pat

Would be interesting to know how many members have over 400k on the their 200/300 tdi donks.

A mate of mine in Melbourne has a '97 110 300tdi with over 400k on it now. His experience and driving his vehicle is partly the reason I changed from a 2004 Nissan Patrol to a '96 130. Naturally I kept the Nissan though to tow the Landy back home. I'm not completely stupid :eek:).

He's replaced the gearbox, or had it reconditioned, replaced a clutch, had a couple of minor things go wrong - and that's it. And he's been tough with that car - towed a 2 tonne caravan around West Oz for a long time. Now he's towing a 1.8 Conquerer camper - he reports it's slow on the hills, otherwise fine.

I've driven with him and he's careful but goes anywhere he wants. The funny thing is his relatively aged 2.5 shunts his 110 along almost exactly the same as my 2004 Patrol with the ZD3.0L, which has done only 140k. Hardly any difference at all.

He asked Ritters recently how long they thought his motor would last and they just shrugged and said there's not much reason for it to stop apart from the bottom end failing, and according to them his bottom is fine, thank you very much.

[51jay]

You don't have to go the full 2.8 route. I have a TDi300 in my range rover. I added a 2.8 manifold and turbo, big front mount intercooler and exhaust. It is a very usable vehicle and a lot cheaper to do.
I enjoy driving it just as much as my P38A and my wife prefers the comfort of the P38A but would rather drive the diesel.

[PAT303]

Would be interesting to know how many members have over 400k on the their 200/300 tdi donks.

A mate of mine in Melbourne has a '97 110 300tdi with over 400k on it now. His experience and driving his vehicle is partly the reason I changed from a 2004 Nissan Patrol to a '96 130. Naturally I kept the Nissan though to tow the Landy back home. I'm not completely stupid :eek:).

He's replaced the gearbox, or had it reconditioned, replaced a clutch, had a couple of minor things go wrong - and that's it. And he's been tough with that car - towed a 2 tonne caravan around West Oz for a long time. Now he's towing a 1.8 Conquerer camper - he reports it's slow on the hills, otherwise fine.

I've driven with him and he's careful but goes anywhere he wants. The funny thing is his relatively aged 2.5 shunts his 110 along almost exactly the same as my 2004 Patrol with the ZD3.0L, which has done only 140k. Hardly any difference at all.

He asked Ritters recently how long they thought his motor would last and they just shrugged and said there's not much reason for it to stop apart from the bottom end failing, and according to them his bottom is fine, thank you very much.

I've owned mine since new and every cold start I let it sit for a minute before driving away and drive steady until the temp gets up and then I drive it harder than most,I like to keep the combustion temp high and don't believe in nana driving.I see no reason why it won't keep going,it fires first time every time and it's been all over Oz from minus degree's in the snow to 45+ in the desert.If looked after,overheating kills them dead,they are a brilliant little engine. Pat

[wrinklearthur]

Would be interesting to know how many members have over 400k on the their 200/300 tdi donks.

Hi Hokoman

Our 300 TDi Auto Discovery, build April,1994, has now got 516,000 Klms on it and is going well.
It still does better than 10ltrs / 100 Klms and doesn't need any oil topups between changes. :)

The 1996 Defender flat tray, with its 300TDi, has had an issue with the head gasket at about 200,000 Klms, but that was not the vehicles fault ,as I discovered that the wrong length head bolts had been used, proir to me owning this vehicle and they were only holding by about four threads. :o
It has now done 260,000 Klms and is getting heavy on fuel useage, so when the timing belt is done next, I have some new injectors ready to go in also.

Cheers Arthur

[Hokoman]

You don't have to go the full 2.8 route. I have a TDi300 in my range rover. I added a 2.8 manifold and turbo, big front mount intercooler and exhaust. It is a very usable vehicle and a lot cheaper to do.
I enjoy driving it just as much as my P38A and my wife prefers the comfort of the P38A but would rather drive the diesel.


That's interesting - I have thought about it but the general opinion seems to be that since the motor has done 270k as a builder's vehicle and carried heavy loads most of it's life it would be wise to pull it down and thoroughly recondition. And that's expensive and for not much more I can have a new 2.8. All depends upon whether it's really necessary to recondition I guess.

[Dougal]

Make sure the "brand new" 4BD1T is an Isuzu one. There are some chinese copies getting around these days. The accessory layout on the copies is very different.

[rick130]

Hi Rick130





These pictures have the same markings that we found after both water damaged motors were pulled down and until somebody has a better explaination of how this damaged is caused, I would stick to the idea that it is water which is causing these marks.

Cheers Arthur

Arthur, I know my engine never ingested any water, at least under my ownership and prior to me buying it was a BFC vehicle from Tennant Ck/Alice Springs.

As I said, JC has had a number of 300Tdi's do this and they all came from the same range of VIN's, only their consequences were worse.

All we could come up with was incorrect machining (everything checks out on my engine) or a bad batch of bearings with poor assembly.
They exhibit almost every failure mode I've read of.

I've experienced cavitation erosion of shells in race motors, that does similar things, small pits all over the surface, but these bearings also had marks of incorrect assembly, oil or grease marks behind the shell on most of them which distorted the shell, and which explain the stress fractures across the face of the overlay.

BTW, the rest of the shells were worse.
The only reason I can think that my crank kept going round and round without any damage was thanks to the stupid exxy oil I ran.

BTW, the mains were fine, damage was limited to the rods.

[2stroke]

So am I correct to assume the 300tdi mains and big ends can be changed with the engine in the vehicle? Mine's at 244000 km and has a 2 year old oil pump, relief valve and spring etc, the VDO gauge seems to indicate it runs at relief pressure mostly but when hot from towing the pressure at idle seems a little low. Bearings seem cheap enough.
Mind you I might try putting a supplementary earth on the sender today.

[PAT303]

That's interesting - I have thought about it but the general opinion seems to be that since the motor has done 270k as a builder's vehicle and carried heavy loads most of it's life it would be wise to pull it down and thoroughly recondition. And that's expensive and for not much more I can have a new 2.8. All depends upon whether it's really necessary to recondition I guess.

If your worried about it simply replace the bigends and headgasket,there would be next to no wear at those K's on the other componants.As Rick has said it seems only a small number of Tdi's within a certain VIN range have bigend problems,faulty material or manufacturing of those bearings me thinks. Pat

[uninformed]

$8000 seems pretty cheap for the whole package. What are you allowing for in that amount?

[2stroke]

Totay I fitted a supplementary earth on the VDO sender. Oil pressure hot (not towing mind you) at idle was 8 to 10 psi (if it's accurate).
Think at 250000 km I maybe should do the bearings if in fact I can do it with the engine in the vehicle.

[Hokoman]

$8000 seems pretty cheap for the whole package. What are you allowing for in that amount?

Creative accounting - how else ?

These are rough figures :

Motor, Large radiator, large intercooler, HD clutch, aircon adaptor, Mantek snorkel + shipping door to door = 6,300 pounds = $ 9300. Customs and GST will be around $ 1000 ;) Fitting + 2000. Total = 12,300

I'm subtracting 2k for the sale of the existing motor and (this is the creative bit) also 2k for the work I would need to do to the engine to make it good for a 4 year overland trip. Because I need to pay in Sterling, rather than Oz $, that's a very big plus also.

So total now comes to $ 8,300. Does that sound reasonable ?

Chris

[Bush65]

Creative accounting - how else ?

These are rough figures :

Motor, Large radiator, large intercooler, HD clutch, aircon adaptor, Mantek snorkel + shipping door to door = 6,300 pounds = $ 9300. Customs and GST will be around $ 1000 ;) Fitting + 2000. Total = 12,300

I'm subtracting 2k for the sale of the existing motor and (this is the creative bit) also 2k for the work I would need to do to the engine to make it good for a 4 year overland trip. Because I need to pay in Sterling, rather than Oz $, that's a very big plus also.

So total now comes to $ 8,300. Does that sound reasonable ?

Chris
I think you are underestimating customs and GST.

IIRC duty will be ~15%, and GST is 10%.

[uninformed]

Ok so you are counting on $2000 real dollars for the sale of your tdi and $2000 mythical dollars that you would have spent on the tdi if you keep it instead.......sounds like you are really just trying to justify it to yourself......haha.

$2000 for the install may be tight. You will need to mod your exhaust. Customize engine/chassis mounts. Sort out the fuel line conections. Sort the spigot bush etc etc etc. If you don't already have a 3 inch exhaust you should with the 2.8.

Have you found out how much bigger the rad and cooler are and how they mount? Does your truck have a/c? If so will these new coolers work in with the a/c condensor and elec fan?

Regarding the intake, u may need to borrow the odd part or2 from your tdi...like the plenum

[101RRS]

Also expecting $2000 for an engine that needs $2000 of work is a bit unrealistic.

Garry

[pibby]

6,300 pounds is around 9728 aud today but probably cost you 10,000 if look at real rate you will get inc. charges.

i believe import duty (?) is 5% and gst 10% but one of them was calculated on the other so you are better off using say 16% to cover them off. i was looking at an excavator from japan and the cost starts out cheap but then it just keeps climbing.

and then there is all the stuff you just don't include coz you try to convince yourself it's doable and she'll be right.

and then look at your time to arrange it all and take car from here to there etc - that's time you could have been earning a quid (opportunity cost) so being realistic you should consider it.

how do the sums stack up selling your vehicle as is and getting a td5 defender? hard to believe the figures would preclude this option with the $ outlay you are considering. you might put $15k into your vehicle just for the motor and bits but unlikely when you come to sell it this will be reflected in the price.

but these aren't just financial considerations, obviously a personal choice and if you go ahead hope it is everything you are expecting.

[rick130]

I think you're right, duty @ 5% and GST goes on top of all costs.
In other words whatever the cost is to get it on the dock here in Oz cops 10% on top of that for The Deputy Commissioner of Taxation.

[Hokoman]

Ha, a broadside. Very healthy.

I'm coming back with all guns blazing.

I'm not sure 2k of work on the existing motor is overvaluing if you want more power ? If I leave it as it is probably just need the timing belt done. The motor is really ok according to the mechanic. He's the one who's happy to buy it for 2k so he should know. Apparently transmission and drivetrain are fine. Found bits of metal in the front diff yesterday while he was fitting a trulok so that's a bit of extra expense.

I've spoken with MD Engineering today and having another conversation this afternoon, I've spoken to my mechanic, who is a Scot, and utterly defiant, and Ill attempt to address all your points thoroughly in the next post. Mind you, I didn't know they were a problem until you raised them. Thanks. :confused:

Not saying I'll win the debate mind you ... :mad:

As far as Customs, Tax, some things are not flexible, some are, not going into that on a forum.
All Comments are entirely valid but we believe there are ways around these issues that are not going to cost the earth.

Yes, it's a sort of labour of love. Why not ? Apart from reading the newspapers and getting depressed about Greece and the world in general (articles in Uk paper today about a possible future attack on Iran's nuclear facilities), I'm not doing much else. It's going to be home for the next 4 years, on and off. If it was a vehicle to park in the drive and do weekenders, that would be a different matter.

Perhaps it is a bit of a gamble. I still have to satisfy myself 85% that we can get around these problems and stay within the budget. It's not as simple as I first thought and that's why I subscribed to this forum and why I'm valueing your inputs. In the end, I can just keep the original motor if it all looks completely stupid.

By the way, someone should archive and publish all the very humorous retorts and comments on the site and call it the Aulro Book of Wisdom. I'd buy it ... :D

Anyway, watch this space ..... More Newbie naivety coming up soon ....

Chris

[Hokoman]

John,

I understand Customs is 5 % on total value of import, which INCLUDES shipping costs oddly, not 15%, but I'll check.

GST is on the value of goods imported - but that depends on the invoice ..... Know what I mean ?

[Hokoman]

Alright, back again - I'm hoping I can cover most of the points raised recently :

I've got my computer back and I got the Shipping costs wrong so that adds another $600 roughly.

Uninformed - MD Engineering say their 2.8 as delivered today is a true 'drop-in'. Nothing needed from the previous motor apart from air-conditioning parts. No customising needed, everything provided.

Exhaust headers in the kit. In their opinion the original exhaust is fine - if you want more go at higher revs move up to a 2.5". If I go with this motor I'll start with the standard and go from there. I think so anyway.

The 'large' Radiator is only slightly bigger than standard - it is a 4 core rather than 3 core. The Larger Intercooler which runs along the bottom - full frontal. They claim it is possible to fit with the air-conditioning components. Mechanic says he doesn't have any worries and no big problem to move the grill forward. But he says Winch could be a problem with this set-up. I'm thinking now about a Rear Winch - does that sound mad ? or maybe a centrally located winch? I saw a reference to that somewhere in one of the forums. Any opinions ? i think some Unimogs locate them in the centre.

About moving the motor back - as I think you suggested previously ? MD say it can only be moved back 1" or so because of the rear turbo outlet. I think I have that right.

$2k for fitting is what I've been quoted. I've been with the same mechanic for 4 years now and when he says 2k he really means 2k. Oh yeah, and a little bit because he forgot this, a bit more for that and the other and Gee, we didn't expect that, so it's only fair to add that. Yup, as I was saying ….. 2k. Sort of. Not far off.

Pibby - I would pay for the motor in Sterling (which really suits me and could be a clincher) so no bank transfer charges etc. I posted about the Customs/GST before so won't repeat. And this is all clean healthy fun so I'm not about to start accounting for time. Beats drinking and darts anyway. About the TD5, I think I'll plead no contest. Rightly or wrongly I decided to stick with totally non-electronic. And I appreciate your last line - thanks.

Garry - as I said before, if I want more power out of my present motor I don't think 2k is unreasonable . Just doing the timing belt is roughly 600 I think. Mechanically I have a lot to learn and wouldn't try doing this kind of stuff myself yet. My mechanic says the motor is fine and is happy to pay 2k for it. Although it was a builder's vehicle and looks rough he reckons it's been well maintained. Gearbox/Transfer case are fine. Not knowing much about Landrovers I actually bought this particular vehicle because I liked and trusted the owner as soon as I met him. That was a gamble but seems to have worked ok. After all, he's a Landrover owner ….. right ?
He was actually very sad to see it go - owned it from new. And because I've got long legs and suffered back problems in the past I wanted the bigger cab.

Yes, there are sure to be expenses I haven't reckoned on but I think I've got a realistic budget. If I sold the car after all of the intended work I wouldn't get my money back. But so what ? I'm not going to sell it. Ever. So there.
Can someone point me to the raspberry icon ?

:o ... Er, when the wife finds out - all offers considered.

[Bush65]

Thanks everyone for the correction to my blunder about duty rate.

Hokoman, if you do change your mind and keep the 300Tdi, you should plan to do more to it than change the timing belt.

If you do a head gasket while on your trip it could cost $$$$ and a lot of time - don't ask me how I know :( The km on your engine indicates it could blow the head gasket any time soon.

Same with coolant system leaks - it is very worthwhile fitting a low coolant alarm and renew all hoses. The water pump is mounted high on the 300Tdi and variants such as 2.8 - it doesn't take much coolant loss to ruin the engine.

[loanrangie]

John,

I understand Customs is 5 % on total value of import, which INCLUDES shipping costs oddly, not 15%, but I'll check.

GST is on the value of goods imported - but that depends on the invoice ..... Know what I mean ?

No, duty is calculated on FOB ITOT converted to AUD then x 5%, then you add freight/ insurance plus any other origin charges then add GST to that figure.

[isuzurover]

If you do a head gasket while on your trip it could cost $$$$ and a lot of time - don't ask me how I know :( The km on your engine indicates it could blow the head gasket any time soon.

Same with coolant system leaks - it is very worthwhile fitting a low coolant alarm and renew all hoses. The water pump is mounted high on the 300Tdi and variants such as 2.8 - it doesn't take much coolant loss to ruin the engine.

Wise advice from John as always. Fortunately when my head gasket failed I was only about 50 km from home...

[Hokoman]

Thanks everyone for the correction to my blunder about duty rate.

Same with coolant system leaks - it is very worthwhile fitting a low coolant alarm and renew all hoses. The water pump is mounted high on the 300Tdi and variants such as 2.8 - it doesn't take much coolant loss to ruin the engine.

agreed, I copied and saved Uninformed's advice from an earlier post :

.......must do's no matter what:

new aftermarket temp gauge, aftermarket EGT gauge, free flowing exhuast.*

You may find your 2.8 running a bit hot in a unladen def with stock rad and intercooler no matter how good a condition they are in. You can get a lower cracking thermostat and get some cooling happening in the engine bay buy cutting some breathe holes in the guards.......

I must look into this exhaust business And point taken re head gasket. I'm thinking if I go ahead with the 2.8 whether to include a spare head gasket.

My mate in Melbourne spoke to KLR in Sydney for me about the Isuzu replacement. This is what he came back with :

"Had a talk with Brad at KLR.* He did say that the best option is the 2.8 for two reasons first is the rego problem which *you would not have to declare but down the track could have problems with, & second there is a lot of modifications to fit the engine which means not many parts are standard, not even the radiator hoses, so problems especially if you're out of the country, no problems with the 2.8 - most spares from the 300 fit. * The cost would work out to be the same for both motors the 2.8 is easy to fit but more expensive to purchase - Izusu is much less but many more $ to fit."

[Hokoman]

Arthur, some Tdi's just do big ends.

JC reckons there was a batch, appears to be the last six months of '98 that destroy big ends and cranks.

I had my shells let go and luckily didn't do the crank too and AFAIK no water had ever entered the engine.
I suspect high oil temps had something to do with it too, I don't trust the oil cooler is big enough.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/80134-journal-bearing-failure-modes-bloody-300tdis.html

Rick,

I thought I saw mention of '96 batch doing big ends too - or am I getting confused with your post re 98 ?
I have a ' 96 130 with 270k and the bottom end needs to be checked, head gasket done, and timing belt, by me if I keep it or by my mechanic who will buy it if I go the 2.8 Tgv route.
Thx

[rick130]

Hokoman, there's enough evidence that it's a good precaution on any 2/300tdi to at least check the big ends between 250-300,000km.

It's easy enough to drop the caps and look and a number of expert's with a lot of experience with 300Tdi's recommend it.

What usually happens is that the overlay is worn through to the copper by this milage, there should be enough photo's of this on the forum here from the last few years.

My engine's problem was different again and a lot more uncommon.

[uninformed]

While a larger exhaust may help hp at higher rpm, its not about that. It's about letting the turbo spool up quicker so you get torque happening quicker. It is very notivable going from a stock LR exhaust to a 3 inch mandrel bent system with 1 muffler on a tdi. Given that the turbo on the 2.8 can produce up to 20 psi, imo its a good idea. It will also help reduce egt's.

If the new intercooler is to be front mount why not put in a full width radiator.

Engine could be moved back to the 200tdi postion with some smart fabrication...if you think that is to hard, forget a center mount winch....

[Bilbo]

Gee, I love this forum. I have also been day dreaming about a 2.8 tgv for ages but the high cost from M&D puts me off. Has anyone considered importing a used motor from South America? They seem to use the motor in quite a few things, including Ford Rangers. They even have an internet Ford Ranger forum. Unfortunately, I don't read Spanish or Portuguese.

[rick130]

Bilbo, we've had a few visitors on the forum from Argentina and I think Brazil who have fitted HS2.8's in the past.

Really common in wreckers over there.

There is an MWM agent in Sydney, but they handle gensets, etc from memory but could probably get spares, and there was a crowd in NZ importing the 2.8 from Brazil and doing a kit, I'll try and dig a link up.

[edit]Found the Kiwi mob.

http://www.forward-specialties.co.nz/
http://www.forward-specialties.co.nz/engine.htm

Might be worth dropping a line as across the Tasman is a lot closer than 1/2 way round the world.

[Hokoman]

While a larger exhaust may help hp at higher rpm, its not about that. It's about letting the turbo spool up quicker so you get torque happening quicker. It is very notivable going from a stock LR exhaust to a 3 inch mandrel bent system with 1 muffler on a tdi. Given that the turbo on the 2.8 can produce up to 20 psi, imo its a good idea. It will also help reduce egt's.

If the new intercooler is to be front mount why not put in a full width radiator.

Engine could be moved back to the 200tdi postion with some smart fabrication...if you think that is to hard, forget a center mount winch....

Thanks Uninformed, I understand now, I'll do some proper Research on the exhaust. I've been so tied up over the other potential problems and balancing the costs etc. I haven't even spoken to Gordon the mechanic about the exhaust. I'll double check this but I think MD were against the 3" for some reason. As far as moving the engine back I guess we'll have to take it as it comes. But if it happens I'll document the whole process with pics in case anyone else wants to go down this route.
I'm thinking the exhaust system as you are describing would be pretty costly ?
Any recommendations for Exhaust places to start with ?
As for the centrally located winch ..... Yes, well. Would be good though.

As far as Im aware, the MD 4 core radiator will be as good as a full length but I'll check on that too.
Many thanks again for your great input. Very appreciative to all of you indeed. I've learned heaps in the past week.

Bilbo, good idea to explore the Sth American forums. Just be aware you will still probably need stuff for an easy fit and unless you solve these problems yourself, it might be easier to just get from MD in the UK. I've got a mate who speaks fluent Spanish so I'll see if I can get hold of him.

[isuzurover]

...
I'm thinking the exhaust system as you are describing would be pretty costly ?
...

My 3" Mandrel bent exhaust cost $500, including a custom dump pipe.

Serg (uninformed) has a fancy stainless one, but it does the same job.

In a turbo diesel you want to minimise pressure drop after the turbo to maximise performance (both spool up and peak power) - that means a large exhaust.

Serg was kind enough to give me a drive of his 2.8 when I was last in Brisbane. It goes very well, however the low down torque is not a patch on the 4BD1T.

[wrinklearthur]

Hokoman, there's enough evidence that it's a good precaution on any 2/300tdi to at least check the big ends between 250-300,000km.

It's easy enough to drop the caps and look and a number of expert's with a lot of experience with 300Tdi's recommend it.
Hi All

That's good advice, if you get yourself a set of standard big end bearings and then check the ones in the motor, if there is any doubt as to their condition, you can then change them.
(do take note that the bearings that you pull out, are the same size as you have for the new ones and not the undersized ones for a reground crank. )

On the point of the oil cooler not being effective, first check the oil cooler thermostat ( part number ERC5923 ), as some will stick, like from crud build up.

Cheers Arthur

[rick130]

FWIW (and this is the third time I've tried this, interwebby troubles with AULRO this AM) i agree with isuzurover/Ben and Serg.

Some upgrading crowds fear that a large exhaust will allow the turbo to overspeed, resulting in catastrophic results.

I've never experienced this, nor am I aware of this happening in a Landy with a stock Garrett turbo.

I agree that 3" is overkill for a 300Tdi, 2.5" is probably fine (stock exhaust is 60mm with mandrel bends and straight through muffler and resonator) and IMO 2.75" would be ideal, but at the time that i fabricated my exhaust 3" aluminised tube and mandrel bends were a bucket load cheaper than 2.75".

Upside of a large exhaust.

As Serg mentioned, lower EGT's (my maximum readings dropped by around 23-25*) and much quicker/earlier spool up on a standard turbo.

The ability to rev out in the gears was the largest noticable improvement.
Before the large pipe 75-80km/h was the maximum road speed I could pull in third gear (255/85 tyres)
The engine would just stop revving.

After building the new system I hit nearly 100km/h in third up a long hill on my first test run.
I've never replicated that, you'd have to be sensory deprived to do it, but 90km/h is easy if and when required, although changing earlier and using the torque in fourth is just as effective.
My point being that the stock 130 system must create excessive backpressure, and with a turbocharger, backpressure is your enemy.

Downside.

It's damned noisy unless you have an effective muffler and resonator (and a resonator is a must otherwise the cabin becomes a resonating chamber)

[rick130]

Arthur, the only way to know whether the oil cooler is up to snuff or not is check oil temps.
I've never installed an oil temp gauge, but interestingly the first evidence of a big end knock came when hammering up mountain pass here with EGT's and water temp pegged. (about 4-500m climb in a couple of km)

The noise didn't disappear until 2/3 the way down the other side, long after water temps had subsided and I was running Delvac 1 at the time, which IIRC had a VI of over 150, ie. it would thin much less at oil temps above 100* than regular HD diesel oil.

I have placed a thermocouple on the back side of the oil filter and insulated it and seen a temp of 106* cruising down the highway.

Good point re the t/stat.
I've checked mine and all was fine at the time

[uninformed]

My 3" Mandrel bent exhaust cost $500, including a custom dump pipe.

Serg (uninformed) has a fancy stainless one, but it does the same job.

In a turbo diesel you want to minimise pressure drop after the turbo to maximise performance (both spool up and peak power) - that means a large exhaust.

Serg was kind enough to give me a drive of his 2.8 when I was last in Brisbane. It goes very well, however the low down torque is not a patch on the 4BD1T.

Mine is actually mild steel and cost me $1100 the first time and a few hundred when they modded it and made some S/Steel stuff for my intake when the 2.8 went in.....the muffler is one of those "vortex" law of physic changing type.....there is some proof that they actually work. Dont ask me how, but I have seen dyno sheets from a Nissan 3.0 that had a system and was tested straight through, no muffler, with a 1 sports type muffler and with the vortex (so the only thing changing was the muffler, not the whole system. Same car used and tuned to suit. The vortex produced the most torque....

I went with Tipan xp, not becasue of the vortex, but becasue they were at the time, three doors down from my mechanic and were happy to work with him checking egts etc. There workmanship is very good also. I was also quoted "about $1000" by another muffler mob.

$500 is a very good price and im sure it is a good system as Ben is no fool.

Shop around for muffler. No matter what size you go for, I would recommend mandrel bends other wise to me the flow wont be as smooth and will be the eqvivelant of a smaller dia.

I havent driven an Isuzu, but I didnt think it would have near the torque of a well sorted Isuzu.

cheers,
Serg

[p38arover]

Without reading all pages in this thread, has anyone referred to this page: 2.8L TGV Diesel Engine (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~defender110@ozemail.com.au/mypage/tgv_diesel_engine.htm)

[rick130]

[snip]
.....the muffler is one of those "vortex" law of physic changing type.....

:lol2:




I havent driven an Isuzu, but I didnt think it would have near the torque of a well sorted Isuzu.

cheers,
SergNothing can change that mate, cc's matter off idle, it's just like our Patrol with the TD42T.
The Defender flogs it above 15km/h, but off idle 2.5 litres can't match 4.2, no matter how much fuel I dump in the little jigger.

Also, your 2.8 is dead stock, Ben's Isuzu isn't ;)

[rick130]

Without reading all pages in this thread, has anyone referred to this page: 2.8L TGV Diesel Engine (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Edefender110@ozemail.com.au/mypage/tgv_diesel_engine.htm)

No, but Serg has an HS2.8 TGV in his 110 so can give a pretty good idea of what's what.

Thanks, Ron, I'd lost David's pages, his alternator strip was a good reference for me years ago.
He's a member here too.

[uninformed]

:lol2:


Nothing can change that mate, cc's matter off idle, it's just like our Patrol with the TD42T.
The Defender flogs it above 15km/h, but off idle 2.5 litres can't match 4.2, no matter how much fuel I dump in the little jigger.

Also, your 2.8 is dead stock, Ben's Isuzu isn't ;)

if anything I reckon my 2.8 is under done in the Intercooler department....but yes there is no replacement for displacment ;)....now the new v6 or even the last 3.2 v6 would be nice in a def'r but thats just pixy dust....

[PAT303]

:lol2:


Nothing can change that mate, cc's matter off idle, it's just like our Patrol with the TD42T.
The Defender flogs it above 15km/h, but off idle 2.5 litres can't match 4.2, no matter how much fuel I dump in the little jigger.

Also, your 2.8 is dead stock, Ben's Isuzu isn't ;)

The line is getting more blurred everyday Rick.The TDCi Defender thanks to a better turbo,injection etc and the six speed really makes the D4DV8 feel abit silly even though the V8 is twice the capacity,it gets buy on shear grunt,not good engineering.My Aunties little VW Polo TD with seven speed auto takes off like a scalded cat thanks to the close gearing keeping the thing spooled up even at idle,that thing is always giving it's best because of the gearbox.If toyota made the 79 series with a 6 speed with matched ratio's it would be the best thing on the road instead of a bitsa. Pat

[uninformed]

apples for apples Pat.....imagine if those VW, BMW, Merc and Ford/peugot engines had a 4 ltr + capacity............

[PAT303]

Thats my point Serg,the 79 would be a standout with a good gearbox.The gearbox is the ignored point as everyone wants power but it's every bit as important. Pat

[uninformed]

Thats my point Serg,the 79 would be a standout with a good gearbox.The gearbox is the ignored point as everyone wants power but it's every bit as important. Pat

no, I ment more the tech development of the engine....there are smaller euro diesels putting out more NM than the Toy V8D...

[Hokoman]

Without reading all pages in this thread, has anyone referred to this page: 2.8L TGV Diesel Engine (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~defender110@ozemail.com.au/mypage/tgv_diesel_engine.htm)

Thank you Ron, I've done a lot of Google searches in the past month but never seen reference to this - looks very constructive.

Serge, I've still yet to speak to MD about their exhaust thoughts but I'm pretty sure David Jackson thought 2.75 perfect, but because that would work out v expensive as not stock, he normally settled on 2.5 as the best compromise, rather than 3", which he had reservations about. I expect a reply from him soon about that.
Either way, looks as though this is an important expense I should be considering. Perhaps I should be adding $1000 to the total cost of this replacement, although from what I gather it seems a good thing to do anyway.
So If I stick with my 'creative accounting' plan as mentioned previously, the cost of a 2.8TGV replacement still hovering around 8.5k, barring added expenses of fitting. I'm keeping the blinds drawn firmly on that for the moment .... :eek:

[Hokoman]

My 3" Mandrel bent exhaust cost $500, including a custom dump pipe.

Serg (uninformed) has a fancy stainless one, but it does the same job.

In a turbo diesel you want to minimise pressure drop after the turbo to maximise performance (both spool up and peak power) - that means a large exhaust.

Serg was kind enough to give me a drive of his 2.8 when I was last in Brisbane. It goes very well, however the low down torque is not a patch on the 4BD1T.

Isuzu, Serg, this big difference surprises me. Just going on the figures I would have thought the HGV would pip the Isuzu in torque.
TORQUE COMPARISON :
2.8 TGV : 277 lbf ft @ 1,400 rpm
4BD1T : 243.4ftlbs @ approx 1800rpm

IF there is a noticeable difference is this down to sheer capacity ?
Or are the 4BD1T stats wrong ? I grabbed them off the internet.
Isuzu clearly HP winner at lower revs but Torque a radically different story.
Or are there different ways to reading them ? Dunno myself obviously.

LR Stats below according to MD Engineering.

LR ‘300’ Tdi STANDARD

Displacement :- 2,495 cc Maximum power :-111 bhp @ 4,000 rpm
Maximum governed rpm Maximum torque :-
4,000 195 lbf ft @ 1,800 rpm

International HS 2.8L TGV (Variable Geometry Turbo)

2,785 cc 135 bhp @ 3,800 rpm
277 lbf ft @ 1,400 rpm

International HS 2.8L WG (Wastegate)
2,785 cc 132 bhp @ 3,800 rpm
262 lbf ft @ 1,600 rpm
Displacement :- Maximum power :- Max governed rpm Maximum torque :-
Displacement :- Maximum power :- Max governed rpm Maximum torque :-

ISUZU 4BD1T

Power output Turbo: varies but up to 140.8hp @ approx 3000rpm.
Torque output Turbo: Varies but up to 243.4ftlbs @ approx 1800rpm.

[Hokoman]

I've just got a copy of the Fitting Instructions for the 2.8 by MD Engineering.
At first glance there are indeed a few parts to be used from the displaced motor :

Manual
2. Use the ‘300’ Tdi flywheel housing, starter motor and fixings from the displaced engine.
Auto
3. Use the ‘300’ Tdi backplate, starter motor and fixings from the displaced engine. Fit the new M&D drive plate together with the standard ring gear. Use the spacer (if fitted), spigot aligner and buttress ring removed from the displaced ‘300’ Tdi. Torque bolts as detailed below.

Also

10. The standard ‘300’ Tdi top hose and bleed hose assembly are used. The bottom hose is extended, see Fig 9, and section 15 in the parts list.
11. The standard ‘300’ Tdi heater hoses are used. Shorten the hose that connects to the water rail by 2 1⁄2” (water rail end), this gives clearance between the hose and large air cleaner hose. See photos Fig 4.

So that's not much really. Including Air con parts too. I'll try and attach a .pdf of the Fitting Instructions next week when back in Sydney. They seem to be pretty comprehensive.

[rick130]

Isuzu, Serg, this big difference surprises me. Just going on the figures I would have thought the HGV would pip the Isuzu in torque.
TORQUE COMPARISON :
2.8 TGV : 277 lbf ft @ 1,400 rpm
4BD1T : 243.4ftlbs @ approx 1800rpm

[snip]


Off idle torque will be massively in favour of the Isuzu and most everyone on here that runs a 4BD1T has the fuel and boost turned up a lot higher than stock and the engine will take it and ask for more and still go 1,000,000km between rebuilds

BTW, post # 107 explains why English tuning shops veer away from 3" pipes, it's more a theoretical thing.

[Dougal]

Isuzu, Serg, this big difference surprises me. Just going on the figures I would have thought the HGV would pip the Isuzu in torque.
TORQUE COMPARISON :
2.8 TGV : 277 lbf ft @ 1,400 rpm
4BD1T : 243.4ftlbs @ approx 1800rpm

That's for a stock 4BD1T. Here is the upgrade list for increasing the 4BD1T's torque.

Stage 1.
Turn the fuel screw to hit 750C in worst case.
Cost. Nothing.
Torque around 380Nm.

Stage 2.
Modify the wastegate actuator to increase boost to 20psi (cut, thread, install sleeve nut and locknuts).
Cost. Minor.
Torque around 420Nm.

Stage 3.
Fit intercooler with 20psi boost
Cost. From $400 in parts on up.
Torque around 510Nm.

Now these figures are all based around a very conservative clean and safe air/fuel ratio. If you want to run hotter you can and get significantly more torque.
I was getting over 500Nm with just 20psi boost and no intercooler. But it was a hot tune that required an eye be kept on the EGT gauge.

To go past the figures above you need to upgrade the turbo. There are various options around the $1000 mark and plenty both cheaper and dearer.

Your 4BD1T stats are factory figures off wikipedia. I wrote those.:D

There is a guy in the US who had compound turbochargers, a massive intercooler and a custom fuel pump on his then unopened 4BD1T. The stock head-gasket let go somewhere over 60psi boost. They are a very strong engine and will produce far more power and torque than your driveline can handle as long as you can feed them enough boost.

They are quite different engines. The 2.8 being the end of a long evolution of small engines, the 3.9 being a heavy duty truck engine made to last 500,000km between rebuilds.

[Hokoman]

That's for a stock 4BD1T.

Your 4BD1T stats are factory figures off wikipedia. I wrote those.:D


They are quite different engines. The 2.8 being the end of a long evolution of small engines, the 3.9 being a heavy duty truck engine made to last 500,000km between rebuilds.

From the mouth of a horse, no, damn dyslexia, from the horse's mouth ... :)

I think that last line explains it in a nutshell to a novice. Thx.

Rick, thx yr post, I'll check it out.

I have to admit, the Isuzu route is very attractive. But it does seem that they're not that easy now to get hold of. Would that be right ?

[isuzurover]

I have to admit, the Isuzu route is very attractive. But it does seem that they're not that easy now to get hold of. Would that be right ?

They are very easy to get hold of 2nd hand, and a full rebuild kit is available (pistons, liners, etc, etc, etc).

If you want a new engine then the 4BG1T (Marine/industrial) version is still available new AFAIK. 4.3L ! Though you may need to swap some parts with a 4BD1.

Btw - my 4BD1T has 1 and 2 from Dougal's list done to it. Plus a slightly larger than stock turbo - which should shift the torque peak higher if anything...

[rick130]

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the Isuzu 4BD1T is about 150kg heavier (dry) than the HS2.8.

This may (or may not) be an issue with some people.

[edit]
On Wikipedia it's claimed that the 3.0 litre Power Stroke engine is based on the 300Tdi/HS2.8 block ?


and a further update of the 300Tdi design was launched as the 3.0 Power Stroke. Although based around the same block and basic architecture as the 300Tdi the Power Stroke has major differences such as electronic common rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_rail) injection and new crossflow cylinder head with Overhead camshaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_camshaft).Land Rover engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.nav-international.com.br/files/series/43_1.jpg

[uninformed]

Rick, any idea how they get the 3.0 from the 2.8? I hadnt heard of them.....

[rick130]

Mate, I don't know if it's possible on the original bore centres ?

The 3.0 has a 96mm bore, the 2.8 is 93mm and the Tdi 90.5mm or something like that

[uninformed]

hmmm.........I thought the 2.8 was a all new block with revised gallaries etc...as we know its not just a stroked 2.5tdi

[rick130]

hmmm.........I thought the 2.8 was a all new block with revised gallaries etc...as we know its not just a stroked 2.5tdi

Yes, but the bore centres are the same. ie. the distance from the centre of one bore to the next is identical from the Tdi to 2.8.

[PAT303]

They most likely got the Tdi core plugs and mold,increased them 20% or so and got a 3.0ltre engine with no R&D cost.A ''new'' engine for little outlay,manufacturers have been doing it for years. Pat

[Bush65]

There are a few things relating to diesel combustion that determine engine torque. Basically getting fuel in quickly before top dead centre and burning it more or less completely - to create high combustion pressures at the most effective part of the stroke.

With old school fuel injection getting a lot of fuel in quickly creates loud diesel knock and creates excessive nitrous oxide emission, so our pumps are made for the necessary compromises.

Modern injection systems (e.g. unit injectors or common rail) can overcome this to suit common use - but for drag racing or tractor pulls then mechanical pumps modified for very high pressures and fast injection rule and modified common rail have so far been unable to compete - note this last comment is not relative to this thread, but it illustrates how much the injection rate and time relate to torque.

Tweaking our injection systems for more fuel has a limit to increasing torque because the extra fuel is injected later, i.e. injecting over a greater time, rather than more fuel in the same (or shorter) time.

The modern injection systems operate at higher pressure, which coupled with smaller nozzle holes gives finer atomisation of the fuel, which allows it to burn quicker and more thoroughly - this (better combustion) produces more torque (and power). It is also a problem if fuel quality is not too good.

In order to burn extra fuel, additional air is required and this is where turbos are required. VNT turbos can help with more air at lower engine rpm. Effectively turbos increase volumetric efficiency so a smaller displacement engine can produce the torque of a larger displacement normally aspirated engine - as others have said, off boost, the smaller displacement turbo engine would not produce as much torque.

It is not difficult or expensive to get 600+ Nm torque from a 4BD1T and it will not require internal changes (basically turbo, intercooler and injection pump tuning) and the engine will not still outlive the smaller alternatives spoken about in this thread.

In the later years of 300Tdi use in rovers the engines were produced by International in Brazil. The 2.8 was based on this. The 300 Tdi linage goes back to much older rover engines and some parts are still the same.

[uninformed]

It is not difficult or expensive to get 600+ Nm torque from a 4BD1T and it will not require internal changes (basically turbo, intercooler and injection pump tuning) and the engine will not still outlive the smaller alternatives spoken about in this thread.




John, do you mean the Isuzu will outlast the smaller engines, even with mods for more power?

[Bush65]

John, do you mean the Isuzu will outlast the smaller engines, even with mods for more power?
Most certainly will. Comparing the 4BD1T to any of the 300Tdi, 2.8TVG, TD5 or Puma is chalk and cheese.

The extra engine mass and cast iron head of the 4BD1 provides greater thermal mass that provides considerable immunity to damage from overheating (e.g. following coolant loss) that would kill the others. The stock head gasket is good for more than 40 psi (probably 50 psi).

Mechanical strength of non-turbo engines is an issue when their power is increased because much increase can only be achieved from running to higher rpm. The greatest component loads are due to inertia of the reciprocating parts, which is greatest when the pistons change direction at the top and bottom of the stroke. The inertia loads increase as rpm increases. The inertia due direction change at TDC (top dead centre) creates tensile load/stress in the con rod and at BDC compression load/stress.

With a turbo engine the power and torque can be increased without increasing rpm and the resulting inertial loads. The increase comes from increasing BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) from burning more fuel (air + diesel) at the same rpm. The highest pressure occurs just after TDC and the direction of the load due to combustion pressure is opposite to the inertial load at that position, i.e. the increased pressure reduces the load/stress due to inertia. At BDC, when the compression load/stress due to inertial is greatest the pressure is not increased.

Remember that the 4BD1T in an Isuzu truck rated for 4 tonne payload and 12 tonne when towing has a very long life between overhauls if serviced properly. If you look at what they are like inside you can easily see why this is - very robust, nitrided crankshaft, alfin pistons (steel inserts for rings), hard chrome plated liners, bypass oil filtration, etc.

[corty]

If I decided to go this route with my Defender, who would be able to fit one of these motors. Who have put these in for people that do have them?
Davis performance or graeme cooper or would my local landy machanic be able to do it??
Thanks