Quick question

[Ivan]

When offroading (i.e. mud and ruts,rock crawling etc) do you have DSC on or off?
I know it's recommended to be off when on Sand.


Thanks

Ivan

[~Rich~]

I switch it off any time 4wding, it's a pain because anytime you switch the engine off or select another terrain setting it turns it back on. :(

[DiscoWeb]

When offroading (i.e. mud and ruts,rock crawling etc) do you have DSC on or off?
I know it's recommended to be off when on Sand.


Thanks

Ivan

Ivan,

Always have DSC off when offroad, especially in low range regardless of terrain or TR setting.

Regards,

George

[TerryO]

Same thing with Hill Decent, if you have it in low and then select 1st Gear it rolls down steep hills at about the same low speed as with Hill Decent on yet without any computer braking trickery being used.

I don't like using brakes on steep down hill sections unless absolutely necessary, I'd rather save them until I really need them.

cheers,
Terry

[camel_landy]

When off-road, DSC = Off.

If you're using Terrain Response, Hill Descent Control will be automatically enabled/disabled depending on the mode selected.

Note: If you turn off DSC, it is never fully off... It just changes the parameters that it works within and sticks it right at the bottom of the list.

M

[But 'n' Ben]

Hi Terry, I'm obviously not understanding my Manual ( how best to use HDC ) or your post about it.
I wonder if you could enlarge on the point you were trying to put across, especially about the selection of gears in both Hi or Low Range?
It's all good for my education, as I am trying to get my head round to this new aspect to 4WD. I wish to become competent, and have the correct selection when faced with a specific 'Off Road' situation.
Thanks,
Don.

[~Rich~]

Hi Don,
Most of us would recommend either doing a commercial 4WD course or join a 4WD Club as most clubs have driver training included in their membership price. This will teach you a lot of info re gearing selection, tyre pressures and techniques.
Things have changed quite a lot of the past 10 yrs in how much the 4wd's have changed technologically speaking.
It used to be that any decent 4wd was a manual and steep downhill descents required either 1st or 2nd low with engine braking doing the work. But now with decent auto box's with lock up on gear selection and hill descent control it's a slightly different story.
Experience will teach you a lot, I prefer to use the auto box in manual mode with HDC off in most circumstances but there is no set rule. It all depends on the track conditions and surface.
Rich

[WhiteD3]

I have DSC off on the sand or in muddy conditions only.

[Celtoid]

Think about DSC this way....

If you are going to be in conditions where applying the brakes would be bad, then ensure your DSC is off....'cause that's exactly what it does!

One poor chap was writing about getting embarrassed in front of his mates when his shiney new D4 couldn't get to the top of a big slippery hill, that required you to go pretty hard. There (if I remember right) was a turn at the top of the hill.

He'd left his DSC on and just as he hit the turn, the DSC sensed loss of stability and/or traction and/or whatever else triggers it....and applied the brakes.......

In the end the poor bloke gave up and had to find another way round.

I almost got stuck in a bog that I'd sunk into, 'cause I changed TC selection and forgot about the DSC coming back on. I was rocking back and forth and was turning the steering wheel, trying to get traction.....just as I got to the top of the hole...the bloody brakes would come on and I'd slide back in.

Took me a few goes to work out what the problem was....:eek:

[camel_landy]

DSC doesn't just use the brakes, it can back off the throttle too.

Maybe a quick lesson in what DSC actually does: :D

DSC = Dynamic Stability Control

It detects and tries to correct understeer or oversteer. If it detects either, it can use the brakes and/or throttle to bring it back under control.

So, for example; it's a damp day, you're out for a drive and you're on a long bend. Part way though the bend, you nail the throttle and get a load of understeer... So, DSC is going to respond and bring this all back under control. In fact, in this situation, chances are that DSC will only need to back off the throttle.

NOTE: Don't forget that DSC can NOT override the rules of physics! ;)

Thing is, when you're off-road, sometimes you need to give it some 'beans'. With DSC still on, it can sometimes mis-interpret the information it gets and takes action... Hence the option to turn it off.

When off-road, I tend to find DSC kicking in on the long slippery climbs. The sort of climb where you need lots of momentum, so have to select a high gear and nail it. If DSC is still on, part way up that hill you will loose all power for no reason (other than forgetting to turn off DSC)!!!

M

[camel_landy]

In summary...

When you go off-road, turn HDC - On and DSC - Off. :D

M

[WhiteD3]

DSC doesn't just use the brakes, it can back off the throttle too.


It's the throttle bit that always catches me.

Re HDC; selecting low range will turn on HDC. I always turn it off unless I specifically need it as I've found it'll engage when I don't want or need it.

[Platypus]

Is descending steep hills solely reliant on the electronic trickery or does engine braking still play a part? In my Patrol TD42 the engine was the main source of braking, do modern diesels still engine brake in the same manner or is it all up to the brakes?

[~Rich~]

Well that's up to the driver!
I prefer as I said to slip the box across into command shift and select the gear I want just like a manual. Most of the time I have HDC turned off.

But you can just select the terrain setting you want and let the car do all the rest and listen to the terrible noises HDC makes!

[Platypus]

So just like a normal car, the best modification to be done is teaching the driver to Drive properly (in this case off-road) and use the modern tools (that probably describes a few motorists too!) to assist when absolutely in the last 1-5% of ones ability.
Think of Stig in a diesel Astra beating the three loonies in their 70's sports cars!!:D
PaulB

[Stuart02]

Same thing with Hill Decent, if you have it in low and then select 1st Gear it rolls down steep hills at about the same low speed as with Hill Decent on yet without any computer braking trickery being used.

I don't like using brakes on steep down hill sections unless absolutely necessary, I'd rather save them until I really need them.

cheers,
Terry

I'm the same about avoiding using e-aids, but if low 1st is holding you're not going down steep and slippery enough hills for HDC to show it's stuff...

[discojools]

On my first trip in my D3 up the high country I poo pooed the idea of HDC. However I found that holding 1st low in low range was not enough to stop the car running away down very steep hills. Used HDC ever since and no probs. As for DSC I have found best to switch off when offroad to avoid any embarrassing moments as it really does cut the throttle!

[TerryO]

On my first trip in my D3 up the high country I poo pooed the idea of HDC. However I found that holding 1st low in low range was not enough to stop the car running away down very steep hills. Used HDC ever since and no probs.


When 1st in low isn't enough to slow me down then that is when I use the brakes, which are still nice and cool and working well because I don't use HDC. ;)
Just pump the brakes slowely up and down and that almost acts in a basic way as HDC does but your in control rather then the car. 4x4 off road driving should be challenging and fun, if you let the vehicle do all the tricky bits then where is the fun or the skill required?

I guess that is what you have to learn to do very quickly anyway when your main vehicle for going off road is a D1 that doesn't even have ABS.

For the forums newer members who are asking these questions my advice is to go do a decent driver training course which are essential if you want to find out how to drive safely and well off road the correct way. In the Sydney basin I would recommend joining the Range Rover Club, their courses are very good and are also free once your a member.

cheers,
Terry

[Stuart02]

When 1st in low isn't enough to slow me down then that is when I use the brakes, which are still nice and cool and working well because I don't use HDC. ;)


I'm sorry, but have to say I'm pretty sure that's advice which no 4wd instructor would give you.
In manuals there'll be no grade that low first won't hold you on before you lose traction, and then nothing other than the bottom or a tree will slow you down (accelerator is your best bet for steering).
I think one reason engine braking is so much better than 'pedal braking', is that if a wheel loses traction, the diffs transfer braking to the wheels with grip. It's also much more gentle and progressive, and leaves you free to accelerate for steering if necessary.
In the autos most of us have, low first still offers a surprising amount of engine braking but not as much as manuals and definitely not enough for the proper hills.
Once it's that steep - often with uneven, loose, broken surfaces - you're simply kidding yourself if you think laying an RM Williams on all four wheels is going to be anywhere near as effective as a system that senses and brakes each wheel individually to its limit of traction.
Physics tell us the brakes have to do a certain amount of work to get you to the bottom at a given speed, regardless of how they're applied. It's just a safety thing. That's my 2 cents!

[TerryO]

Stuart if you read what I had written more carefully then you would have seen that I was talking about using brakes in conjunction with 1st in low.

I was not talking about using brakes on there own going down very steep declines.

In all seriousess what do you think drivers of older 4x4's in tricky steep situations used prior to HDC? If you can show me where the HDC button is on my D1 then I'll accept your comment that I shouldn't use the brakes as well as low gearing if required.

A real life example that you may not find in a manual, if you have a standard geared 4x4 with greatly oversized diameter tyres, like I and many others have, then 1st in low sometimes is no longer as low as you may need to control down hill speeds when going down drop offs etc. in that situation you use brakes as well as gearing to control your decent especially when you don't want to smash your fuel tank or underbody in by going to fast and bottoming your suspension.

For your information I was taught this technique by a RRC instructor who was also on the day showing mainly new D3 owners how to get down steep declines. Mine on the day was the only vehicle without HDC. As I said earlier for me anyway, 4x4 driving is all about gaining off road driving skills and the challenge and if you just let a very smart computer drive the car for you then as far as I'm concerned there is no challenge or skill required.

cheers,
Terry

[Stuart02]

Didn't miss a word, Terry, and stand by what I said. No-one was talking about using brakes on their own. Of course any available engine braking is taken advantage of. I was talking about using brakes full stop.

In the days before HDC people bought manuals for going down big hills. People with autos used the brakes out of necessity and at their peril.

People with oversized tyres who are serious about crawling get suitably lower-ratio gearing in their diffs. Again, people without the proper equipment use the brakes out of necessity and at their peril.

In both these cases, and for tyres and clearance as well for that matter, if you don't have the equipment to safely negotiate obstacles then a good driver knows the limit of their car and doesn't go there unless absolutely necessary. Or at least get your family out of the car first, and have a recovery vehicle, first aid kit and sat phone at the ready.

It's good and well to enjoy the challenge of man and machine against the elements if that's your thing, but it's irresponsible to encourage novices to use anything less than the safest techniques for potentially dangerous situations. If you think you heard a RRC instructor telling people with HDC equipped cars to use their brakes instead on steep inclines, I'd be deeply concerned.

Sorry I don't want to be confrontational, but I can't in good conscience not encourage safety first. I think your advice regarding doing a course is dead on, and maybe we should leave it at that. I've done plenty of offroad driving in different cars and still found it invaluable to spend a day in the D4 in a controlled environment where my wife and I could safely get to know the car and some of it's capabilities.

[TerryO]

Stuart,

Thanks for showing me the error of my ways in driving a inadequate D1 off road, I will from now on only drive it on flat ground until I can get someone to retrofit HDC.

I'm not knocking HDC, it has its use and I admit I have been known to use it occassionally on the D3, with the early version HDC on the D2 it is not a good thing and most people in the bush turn it off when going down steep hills and on the D1 it just doesn't exist, so a driver learns the strengths and weaknesses of their vehicle and gets on with driving it to the conditions off road, sometimes even down very steep rough declines. Personally I think all 4x4 drivers should learn how to negotiate challenging off road driving while not using electonic aids, because one day you may have no choice in the matter.

In the meantime while I look for someone to retrofit the HDC to the D1 could you please send me one of your manuals you speak about on 4x4 driving, then I to can learn as much about the theory of off road driving as you have. :angel:

cheers,
Terry

[Graeme]

LR thought it prudent to cancel the D2's HDC if it theorised that the brakes were overheating, leaving the driver without any HDC and supposedly overly hot brakes.

[DiscoWeb]

When 1st in low isn't enough to slow me down then that is when I use the brakes, which are still nice and cool and working well because I don't use HDC. ;)

For the forums newer members who are asking these questions my advice is to go do a decent driver training course which are essential if you want to find out how to drive safely and well off road the correct way. In the Sydney basin I would recommend joining the Range Rover Club, their courses are very good and are also free once your a member.

cheers,
Terry

TerryO,

I agree with you regarding the above technique, particularly when you are not slipping and sliding. For all but the steepest decent I find 1st low providing plenty of engine braking and a gentle application of brakes just keeps it from running away on the really steep stuff.

Additionally I have found when it gets slippery, HDC works better than manual braking as it leaves you free to steer and use the accelerator to regain traction. Obviously this is not an option in vehicles that do not have HDC but hey no reason not to use good technology when it is available and actually does a better job in certain circumstances.

Also as a member of the Range Rover Club of NSW I can also attest to the fact that their driver training days are really worthwhile. The trainers really know and love the LR products, the days are structured in such a way that you get plenty of opportunity to watch and then try things and are progressive so you do the beginners course then the advanced courses.

Combined with joining them on some of their day trips etc membership is a very worthwhile investment and supports a club that supports the brand.

George

[Stuart02]

In the meantime while I look for someone to retrofit the HDC to the D1 could you please send me one of your manuals you speak about on 4x4 driving, then I to can learn as much about the theory of off road driving as you have. :angel:

cheers,
Terry

Lol - a manual gearbox, not a book - don't think I can afford the freight on that, sorry! Don't worry, I learned in the bush what not to do in 4WDs, luckily in fleet vehicles :wasntme: cos at times I did it the hard way, scared the $#&% out of myself and was very lucky.

As a previously passionate detester of automatic 4WDs based on my experiences, the way I see it is that if it weren't for HDC, I'd have been able to buy a manual D4, and for that reason it sucks! And yeah, the HDC in my manual D2 was definitely not worth bothering with!

Cheers.

[Stuart02]

Stuart,

I will from now on only drive it on flat ground until I can get someone to retrofit HDC.



I'm officially biting my tongue, btw! :angel:

[TerryO]

I'm officially biting my tongue, btw! :angel:


Hmmm! ...So your biting your tongue over something I said tongue in cheek.


cheers,
Terry ;)

[Stuart02]

something I said tongue in cheek.

cheers,
Terry ;)[/QUOTE]

That's the funny part :)