QANTAS fleet grounded

[mudmouse]

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce announced the International and Domestic fleet will be grounded from tomorrow until Unions return to work and stop planned work stoppages.

Well, we want cheap air travel and they can't provide it without reduced wages - except Joyce, who pocketed and additional $2mil this year - but I reckon it was a dumb move for the Unions to take the path they have in this economic environment.

I also reckon it's a dumb move by Joyce, it'll cost the company a fortune and maybe its future....


Matt.

[Col.Coleman]

And my wife and I are meant to be flying to Melbourne this coming Saturday morning for my brothers wedding.

I am thinking about driving now.

CC

[mudmouse]

...and that's just it. They can buggerize around getting blood from a stone and the other side not budging an inch, when the people who lose are the public - the people keeping the lot of them fed :mad:

It doesn't affect JetStar, Qantas link or the airfreight mobs.

Matt.

[muddymech]

the news said it will cost $20m a day, think might be higher than that, plus how do you calculate lost customers and the emmotional cost.
virgin blue probably very happy.
is joyce very clever or very mad.
ian

[Brian]

QANTAS has grounded its entire fleet, domestic and international.

There are over 13,000 international passengers booked for travel in the next 24 hours who are not likely to go anywhere.

In total 108 aircraft will be grounded in 22 airports around the world

[Homestar]

:eek:
Geez, this is getting serious!

I'm supposed to fly with them next week for work, but I don't want to go anyway, and this may be the perfect excuse...:angel:

[WhiteD3]

At the end of the day QANTAS either cuts costs (including wages) or go out of business. Why the unions don't accept this (I'm sure they realise it) I don't know.

If you want to blame someone for this mess, blame ourselves. We are all flying Virgin, Tiger, etc enjoying the cheap airfares then bleat when QANTAS can't compete.

As for Joyce and his pay packet; that's what you have to pay for someone to run a business this big and complex. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

[mudmouse]

I think the timing of Joyce' bonus was very poor but it's also performance related, so if the company doesn't perform, neither will/should his pay.

Matt

[inside]

I'm due to fly with them on Monday. I'll be affected but good move by Qantas I reckon this has gone on long enough and it needs to be resolved.

[George130]

I'm due to fly with them on Monday. I'll be affected but good move by Qantas I reckon this has gone on long enough and it needs to be resolved.

Maybe.
But the timing is a deliverate move for max impact.

[strangy]

good move?....yeah right, what idiots.
Qualified Aircraft Engineers with the appropriate approvals are one of the rarest species on the planet. Something the Airline Execs know has been the case for a long time and not going to improve in the near future.
All Qantas engineers will have jobs tomorrow if they want with almost any airline they want. Leaving the Airline in ruins.

Furthermore Qantas no longer enjoys protection from competition so the ramifications, after Virgin, SIA and others who are ready to jump in on the routes, will be massive.

I think this is just a move in the masterplan to move as much of the operation off shore and restructure through this and Jetstar.

[stuee]

All Qantas engineers will have jobs tomorrow if they want with almost any airline they want. Leaving the Airline in ruins.


With better pay and conditions?? If so then why would they not have moved already??

[scarry]

Great,i have one son in Darwin flying Qantas back here tomorrow & the other in Canberra flying back on Qantas tomorrow as well
Looks like neither of them will be going anywhere.:(

[Thommo]

I just got back from overseas yesterday flying Qantas.
Never-the-less the truth is all other airlines are moving to paying "world award wages" I am not sure of the exact title. Virgin and all other airlines are paying less than Qantas which is why they don't jump ship.
Whilst I believe there is a place for unions, it is time an employer stood up and said enough is enough, this may well cost jobs and only the unions are to blame.
The TWU is the worst of the lot, I have had dealings with them for many years.
Fact: I tried to get the TWU to represent 300+ employees directly employed in the transport industry but they had a sweet heart deal with another union at the time who would not represent these workers on the specific issue at hand.
(note: the "other union" was supported/represented by Penny Wong at the time)
I got legal representation, cost me $3500 personally, proved my point, TWU later took the 300+ employees but still has not paid my $3500 invoice outstanding for over 10 years! They are still active in my workplace and still try to get me to join (fat chance).
I say bring back individual work agreements, (also fat chance but that is because we have too many lazy employees in this country).
I am not a senior manager or major stakeholder in the transport industry.
Sure I would like better pay and conditions and unions have probably had a significant part of getting many of the existing conditions we enjoy today but recently (for a few years now) they have begun to bite the hands that feeds them. Big companies want big profits and those profits often go to rich people who are rich because they put most of that money back into investments that create more jobs.
OK I can feel the knives out already but I feel better for venting!

[Pierre]

This employer action was foreshadowed at their AGM in the last couple of days, with the CEO telling all and sundry how much the rolling stoppages cost. How much will this activity cost Joyce and his mates? On whom can he lay blame for this vandalism? No high moral ground here - he's acting to sink the Oz brand and reraise the flag in Asia.

How could you trust this bloke?

Grrr....

Pete

[Bearman]

good move?....yeah right, what idiots.
Qualified Aircraft Engineers with the appropriate approvals are one of the rarest species on the planet. Something the Airline Execs know has been the case for a long time and not going to improve in the near future.
All Qantas engineers will have jobs tomorrow if they want with almost any airline they want. Leaving the Airline in ruins.

Furthermore Qantas no longer enjoys protection from competition so the ramifications, after Virgin, SIA and others who are ready to jump in on the routes, will be massive.

I think this is just a move in the masterplan to move as much of the operation off shore and restructure through this and Jetstar.



I agree. I remember the domestic pilots dispute back in '90 when the Government (ALP by the way) brought in the RAAF to break the dispute after they could not come to a resolution. As a result we ended up with mostly foreign pilots flying our aircraft and our very experienced pilots went overseas. Shortly afterwards the new pilots received pay rises equivalent to what the sacked pilots were after. The whole thing was a concocted premeditated move by Peter Abeles (TNT-Ansett) and Bob Hawke to break the hold of the Aust Pilots Federation. I don't know whether there is any association like that in this dispute but it smells. Personally I think Joyce and the Qantas board by grounding the entire fleet instead of resolving the situation are using this as an opportunity to either dismiss or force their australian staff into submission and as Strangy said move more of their operations and employment overseas where the labour cost is lower. They already partially do this. If they can afford this massive loss then I feel they could have arbitrated an acceptable resolution for all. After all Mr. Joyce has not been backward in accepting an extra $2 million on top of his exorbitant salary. Perhaps he could donate the bonus to the staff he has put out of work to put food on the table for their families. I don't think Joyce is worth anywhere near what he is paid let alone the extra $2 million. At a time like this it is extremely bad timing for him to accept such a pay rise. As with the way everything is going in this country, before long we won't have any Australian based industries left. I support the unions fighting to get a fair deal.

[strangy]

With better pay and conditions?? If so then why would they not have moved already??

Many will. They stay because they are Australian , their families are here etc and Qantas is based in Australia.
Many people have better opportunities in this regard overseas, but don't pursue these for the above reasons and others.

So you stop the Airline to prove how big your jewels are and teach those who keep you in business a lesson?
If Qantas can't afford to pay their staff now it won't matter anyway. If the airline isn't viable it is just matter of time.

Cheers

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Jojo]

May I ask the silly question of an uninformed what's going on here???

[MEANZ06]

^^^ wondering why this got moved to "outdoor pastimes"... :(

[roverfan]

As someone who used to be a very successful union recruiter, the actions that led to this happening are the exact type of things that made me question who I was actually helping.

The unions seem to forget that if there's no profit, those workers they are meant to represent won't have a job at all. I applaud the actions of the board for not bowing to the demands and blackmail being employed by the unions

[Chilly]

Hi,
I am with JoJo.

Can anyone give a informed insight?

No bull**** or righteousness...just some facts/truth.

and for those who make these decisions in Quanta's...I advised my family not to fly Quanta's...after the air failures they had...and to those failures...or should we call them indifferences in opinion on how to run Quanta's....well, that is how the world judges you.

[Busman]

I own and operate a tour bus company on the Gold Coast, and this disruption has already cost me hundreds of dollars in extra costs.
I had three group arrivals into Brisbane tonight, and its just kaos.
I do believe that Qantas had no choice but to act in this regard, but l do think 12 or 24 hours notice would be prudent to at least provide people with some reasonable notice.
Then they would have at least had the option to make alternate arrangements.
I have group arrivals over the next few days, and simply don't know what is going to happen??:mad:
Hopefully some resolution will take place over the next day or so, to simply save Qantas, the travelling public, and Australian Tourism as a whole.

[bob10]

Brings back memories of the wharfies dispute, call me cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was a political move designed to drive a wedge between the unions and the federal government. The CEO of Qantas, Alan Joyce, would not make the move of grounding his airline without some high powered people covering his back. Stand by for an early election. Bob

[stuee]

Many will. They stay because they are Australian , their families are here etc and Qantas is based in Australia.
Many people have better opportunities in this regard overseas, but don't pursue these for the above reasons and others.

So you stop the Airline to prove how big your jewels are and teach those who keep you in business a lesson?
If Qantas can't afford to pay their staff now it won't matter anyway. If the airline isn't viable it is just matter of time.

Cheers

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

So they're the best paid airline workers in Australia then?? Airlines are a globalised industry, they aren't a CFMEU worksite competing against only local resources, they are competing in a global market which has become increasingly deregulated in this country, meaning operators who can base their maintenance operations overseas, and pay their pilots less are able to make inroads here in the Australian market because the consumer only wants the cheapest they can get.

[Busman]

It would be an interesting comparison with Tiger.
Tiger Airlines is solely owned by a Singapore consortium.
As a super budget airline, wonder how they pay their employees?
The maint cost must be similar or is it??
Have not seen any industrial action taken against them??

Thoughts ???

[CraigE]

Really easy to criticise the unions and employees. Ask yourself this would you be happy to take a pay cut and reductions in working conditions to pacify a demanding public? Would you be happy not to be able to get a pay rise in line with inflation? Would you be happy to watch your CEO get a 70% payrise for destroying the company and you get nothing and then the company cry poor?
I would think not.
Remember this is just not about money but jobs going offshore.
Airfares have been ridiculously cheap for some time now and that is great for us consumers, but should not be used as a tool to erode employees standards of living.
Ye I think there are better ways of dealing with essential services disputes like this, but until there is a honest and credible independent tribunal to assess these claims, nothing will change.
IMHO it is QANTAS executives that are at fault as they will not negotiate and this has been highlighted enough times, but they can then go and throw millions of $ at advertising campaigns to try and belittle the employees.
I am not pro or anti union as I used to be a shop steward and hate militant unions with a passion, but I believe in the right to withdraw labor when negotiations break down.
They are at least fighting for real reasons.
Anyone remember the 80's and early 90's when miners would strike for wrong flavoured ice cream, only having 3 main course choices in the messes etc etc.
Minimum pay rises without negotiation should be set at CPI, no iffs and butts or we are headed to a US system of working poor, if we are not already there.
Think about your kids and grand kids, would you not like a good standard of living for them? Or are you happy for them to become working poor.

[stuee]

Really easy to criticise the unions and employees. Ask yourself this would you be happy to take a pay cut and reductions in working conditions to pacify a demanding public?


The demanding public are who pays their wage through airfares!!! If you don't satisfy them you don't have a job.

[roverfan]

My understanding was the executive had agreed to CPI increases and pay rises but would not budge on gradings ie all pilots wanting the same pay regardless of the type of aircraft they were flying which equated to around a 30-40k increase in some instances, and job security clauses that no industry in aus can offer.

Pilots aren't doing it tough, the demands are way above market rates on the global scale it is greed pure and simple. They are already paid better than allot of their counterparts and wanted to hold the company to ransom.

[roverfan]

The demanding public are who pays their wage through airfares!!! If you don't satisfy them you don't have a job.

Agree, no one has asked them to take a pay cut. They have a choice accept what's on the table and help the business remain viable or get a payrose and for e the company to shut up shop it's an easy choice for me - I'll take the modest pay rise and still have a job in 12 months time thanks.

[cjc_td5]

The Queen took off at 2pm Perth time today (on a QANTAS plane), almost to the minute the grounding was announced in Sydney. Some co-incidence!

I feel that some notice should have been given to travellers of the grounding as its immediate effect caused huge inconvenience to some. At Perth a plane was boarded and ready to leave the gate when the grounding was announced, and the passangers were hauled off the plane back into the terminal!

We have the "in laws" with us who are due to fly back to Sydney on Monday. I think they might be staying with us until the end of the week at least!

CC

[Ean Austral]

Whether you agree or disagree, its a smart move by the Qantas CEO..he disrupts everyday people and blames the unions, he instantly creates a devided public.

The unions will be looked upon by many as causing this, so there support will be halved at the least, he drags the Government into the picture, tells them that they should have stepped in sooner, then tells them Qantas need millions in help to save the airline and jobs...

If Gilliard does nothing she's in the poo, and if she opens the government coffers she admits she got it wrong and should have acted sooner, she signs her own death certificate.

The CEO just earnt his pay rise.

My 2c worth,

Cheers Ean

[strangy]

So they're the best paid airline workers in Australia then?? Airlines are a globalised industry, they aren't a CFMEU worksite competing against only local resources, they are competing in a global market which has become increasingly deregulated in this country, meaning operators who can base their maintenance operations overseas, and pay their pilots less are able to make inroads here in the Australian market because the consumer only wants the cheapest they can get.

Who said they were the best paid?? Not me,.... only the people like Joyce whose personal bonus exceeds the entire amount sort by the workforce. This is ONE of the points leading to industrial action.
Oh how "evil" of Australian workers to stand up and want fair pay for skill.
Of course you wouldnt mind at all when this happens to your area of employment will you?

By the way you wont get cheaper fares because any margin will be paid to shareholders not jo public......... and engineering capabilities and Pilot experience to match ... why do you think Tiger were grounded?:angrylock: Because their cheap poorly trained/checked/ experienced pilots flew below lowest safe altitude on a number of occasions, endangering all on board and on the ground. But hey, who cares about that you got cheap fare didnt you?
Isnt ignorance just bliss. (the above is just one reason)

Always fascinated by people with no idea about Aviation other than finding the cheapest fare, suddenly have an opinion when they percieve themselves to be missing out. Rather easier to apply a broad base swipe at unions than to bother to find out what is really going on eh? BTW I am not in any union and have seen the damage some can do, but also see their value in many circumstances.

No doubt the same people will gladly diregard litigation equally, should there be an accident or even just a little scare to cause them some emotional trauma?

Funny how everybody bitches and moans about crappy mechanics on their vehicles and crappy aftermarket parts and blah blah blah, but suddenly want those same manufacturing countries and workers maintaining the machines that will take them and their families 12kms up and 700km/h for the price of bus ticket, but no way they will put that part on their vehicle or use that mechanic, cos its just not worth the risk!!!:twisted:

Hmmm folks wont bolt on a chinese winch in case it leaves them stranded for a few hours till help arrives but will take the chance at hurtling towards the ground in an aluminium tube for sake of a few dollars on an airfare.

For those who dont know, aircraft parts are specifically certified and, for the most part for this thread, will come from Boeing or Airbus industries.
So all operators will pay the same price for spares as the next operator. So nothing to be saved o/seas in this department. The difference is in the staff and their training and experience.

Some countries do an excellent job, while many are fraudulent, untrained and use second hand parts despite signatories and certification in maintenance log books stating otherwise.

cheers

[stuee]

Who said they were the best paid?? Not me,.... only the people like Joyce whose personal bonus exceeds the entire amount sort by the workforce. This is ONE of the points leading to industrial action.
Oh how "evil" of Australian workers to stand up and want fair pay for skill.
Of course you wouldnt mind at all when this happens to your area of employment will you?

You imply that Qantas are the best paid in Australia when you state that most stay here for family reasons when there are better opportunities overseas. If there was better work here they wouldn't be having this industrial action and the market would dictate wages. Who else pays better than Qantas within Australia??



By the way you wont get cheaper fares because any margin will be paid to shareholders not jo public......... and engineering capabilities and Pilot experience to match ... why do you think Tiger were grounded?:angrylock: Because their cheap poorly trained/checked/ experienced pilots flew below lowest safe altitude on a number of occasions, endangering all on board and on the ground. But hey, who cares about that you got cheap fare didnt you?
Isnt ignorance just bliss. (the above is just one reason)

Always fascinated by people with no idea about Aviation other than finding the cheapest fare, suddenly have an opinion when they percieve themselves to be missing out. Rather easier to apply a broad base swipe at unions than to bother to find out what is really going on eh? BTW I am not in any union and have seen the damage some can do, but also see their value in many circumstances.


I'm not sure if your directing this at me but this was my point before, you have low cost airlines attracting a large quantity of consumers taking away from Qantas's profits. Qantas is no longer protected locally or abroad and has to adapt to suite.

For what its worth, I've only ever flown with airlines other than Qantas when I wasnt responsible for booking or flying on routes that Qantas don't fly. I actually find it quite amusing those arguing for pro union action who then go fly to bali with Air Asia or Tiger.

These workers may deserve the better pay and conditions but unless a raft of protectionism is bought back in, and foreign airlines booted out then they have to get with the times.

edit* This is essentially my view:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/high-cost-kangaroo-of-qantas-cannot-continue-says-dick-smith/story-e6freuy9-1226179961218

I'm yet to be convinced otherwise, but I'm happy to be.

[85 county]

good move?....yeah right, what idiots.
Qualified Aircraft Engineers with the appropriate approvals are one of the rarest species on the planet. Something the Airline Execs know has been the case for a long time and not going to improve in the near future.
All Qantas engineers will have jobs tomorrow if they want with almost any airline they want. Leaving the Airline in ruins.

Furthermore Qantas no longer enjoys protection from competition so the ramifications, after Virgin, SIA and others who are ready to jump in on the routes, will be massive.

I think this is just a move in the masterplan to move as much of the operation off shore and restructure through this and Jetstar.

doint think so, BLACK BALLED
and what airline would want to employ that bunch. work 1 hour talk for 5 and flog any thing that isint nailed down for the rest of the day. OH thats when thay are not on work cover.

[roverfan]

Who said they were the best paid?? Not me,.... only the people like Joyce whose personal bonus exceeds the entire amount sort by the workforce. This is ONE of the points leading to industrial action.
Oh how "evil" of Australian workers to stand up and want fair pay for skill.
Of course you wouldnt mind at all when this happens to your area of employment will you?

By the way you wont get cheaper fares because any margin will be paid to shareholders not jo public......... and engineering capabilities and Pilot experience to match ... why do you think Tiger were grounded?:angrylock: Because their cheap poorly trained/checked/ experienced pilots flew below lowest safe altitude on a number of occasions, endangering all on board and on the ground. But hey, who cares about that you got cheap fare didnt you?
Isnt ignorance just bliss. (the above is just one reason)

Always fascinated by people with no idea about Aviation other than finding the cheapest fare, suddenly have an opinion when they percieve themselves to be missing out. Rather easier to apply a broad base swipe at unions than to bother to find out what is really going on eh? BTW I am not in any union and have seen the damage some can do, but also see their value in many circumstances.

No doubt the same people will gladly diregard litigation equally, should there be an accident or even just a little scare to cause them some emotional trauma?

Funny how everybody bitches and moans about crappy mechanics on their vehicles and crappy aftermarket parts and blah blah blah, but suddenly want those same manufacturing countries and workers maintaining the machines that will take them and their families 12kms up and 700km/h for the price of bus ticket, but no way they will put that part on their vehicle or use that mechanic, cos its just not worth the risk!!!:twisted:

Hmmm folks wont bolt on a chinese winch in case it leaves them stranded for a few hours till help arrives but will take the chance at hurtling towards the ground in an aluminium tube for sake of a few dollars on an airfare.

For those who dont know, aircraft parts are specifically certified and, for the most part for this thread, will come from Boeing or Airbus industries.
So all operators will pay the same price for spares as the next operator. So nothing to be saved o/seas in this department. The difference is in the staff and their training and experience.

Some countries do an excellent job, while many are fraudulent, untrained and use second hand parts despite signatories and certification in maintenance log books stating otherwise.

cheers

You seem to be missing the part about demanding Job Guaruntees that no ther industry or business in Australia or pretty much the world can offer. That is actually the main stumbling block in the union demands.

As for your rant about the only people taking the business side want cheap airfares what a load of crap i always fly qantas and never shop around.

[CraigE]

The demanding public are who pays their wage through airfares!!! If you don't satisfy them you don't have a job.
Ok so you are saying it is ok for the public to dictate wage policy? If that is so let me know what industry you are in and we might have to start dictating what you earn and by your statement you would be happy with that.
We are not just talking pilots, but a wide range of jobs. Usually why there is some sort of arbitration, that does not seem to apply here.
It seems there are a lot of people more concerned about inconvenience than standards of living.
There is also a lot of BS about what pilots earn. In this day and age it is not that good, especially when you take into account what it cost them to get their commercial licence for a big jet.
The public will pay airfares, no matter what they are, it is just you people that want the cheap fares inter city. Come to Newman and have a look at what it costs us. A budget fare for us is around $250, normal fare over $600. Most of the flights are full as mining companies pay for these fares.
We all want cheap stuff because asia can do it cheap, but what future and standard of living are we leaving our kids and their kids?

[cartm58]

QANTAS grounded its fleet as a tactic as it forces the Fair Work Tribunal to suspend the industrial action by unions and suspends the bargaining periods and will now conduct an arbitrated case on the wage claims.

Fair Work Australia will then arbitrate an award which will be binding on the parties for 3 to 5 years during which time no industrial action or additional claims can be made.

Fair Work Australia are not likely in my experience to grant anything other than CPI increase to Unions unless they can demontrate a change in skill or technology to justify the increase.

Fair Work won't be granting anything on Union claims restricting QANTAS rights to engage contractors or force QANTAS to pay non QANTAS staff working in its off shoots like Jetstar equal pay to QANTAS staff rates like the pilots are demanding.

QANTAS grounded the fleet today as it was Friday, Fair WOrk convened the first hearing of arties tonight in MElbourne at 10, orders will be likely issued over the weekend and the planes will be back in the air by Monday at latest.

Aust Govt is likely to repeat Bob Hawke move and have airforce fly surplus passengers affected domestically by dispute and or allow foreign international to use spare seats on domestic flights to carry Australian domestic passengers.

If you have a IR system which we have had since 1994 which says the parties are free to bargain over anyhting they want wihtout restriction and take IR action in support of those claims without interference from IR Tribunal unless it affects the national economy or community OHS then you have the sort of QANTAS campaign in large companies of death by 1000 cuts by Unions and the only action an employer can take is lock out his workforce and shut down his business in response. As neither party can refer the dispute to an independent tribunal for resolution or conciliation, unless of course the dispute affects the Nation etc and that requires a reference from Minister.

So people QANTAS has played its tactical card to force the Govt to refer the matter to the IR Tribunal and suspend IR action by Unions and get an arbitrated pay claim only decision.

As for outcomes, we are in global economy and we are competing ourselves downwards to the lowest cost provider of goods as the consumer wants the cheapest goods and you can look at manufacturing textile industries electronic and white goods to see that is true as all those industries that used to employ people in Australia in the 1950's and 1960' s under tarriff barrier have all but disappeared since tarriffs were reduced in 1970's by Gough and abolsihed for free trade agreements in the 1980's and 90's by Hawke Keating and Howard Costello.

Mining pays high wages as no comptetion but even mining companies going towards robot replacement of high cost labour and will over the next 20 years replace their workforces which they deunionised in the 90's by individual agreements and offering over award wage rates.

Suggest people look at USA to see same destruction on massive scale of their industrial based and impact on their manufcaturing cities where nealry 30% and more of cities like Detroit are now derelict and abandoned.

Where prior to 1965 95% of clothing was made in USA and now less than 5% is made there.
,

[bigcarle]

a lot of these CEO's don't or won't realize is that the moment you outsource your work you lose control over it and no longer have an effective say in ANY aspect of that work.
i have seen this happen many a time, it all looks great on the bottom line but its murky on the way there.

[stuee]

Ok so you are saying it is ok for the public to dictate wage policy?

If the public pay for your service then yes. This is what drives the world around, if the consumer doesn't pay for their service they're left without a job. If that's unacceptable, change industry or job.


If that is so let me know what industry you are in and we might have to start dictating what you earn and by your statement you would be happy with that.

I work in oil and gas, I moved after the last company I worked for (a vendor) wasn't offering what I could get elsewhere and was starting to outsource engineering to India.


We are not just talking pilots, but a wide range of jobs. Usually why there is some sort of arbitration, that does not seem to apply here.
It seems there are a lot of people more concerned about inconvenience than standards of living.
There is also a lot of BS about what pilots earn. In this day and age it is not that good, especially when you take into account what it cost them to get their commercial licence for a big jet.
The public will pay airfares, no matter what they are, it is just you people that want the cheap fares inter city. Come to Newman and have a look at what it costs us. A budget fare for us is around $250, normal fare over $600. Most of the flights are full as mining companies pay for these fares.
We all want cheap stuff because asia can do it cheap, but what future and standard of living are we leaving our kids and their kids?

I don't fly enough to be inconvenienced and as I said I always fly Qantas where possibly, its not me you have to convince to support the Australian based airlines. And I agree whole heartedly that by demanding the cheapest stuff we can get we are moving towards equalising the standard of living with 3rd world countries. But I see the world we live in and reality is, that airlines are competing on a global playing field and driven by consumers wanting more for less, they are affected more than a number of other locally based industries because they compete directly with cheaper labour.

[slug_burner]

All the arguments for the high costs of spare parts for Land Rovers will most likely apply to the reason why QANTAS workers are wanting to improve their conditions. Like overseas suppliers of parts for LRs overseas workers can offer their services at a lower cost to the airlines. It is a case of globalisation, we all like it when it provides better value for our money but we don't like it when it drives down our living standards.

Globalisation now demands that Aus workers drop their labour force costs or the airline will use labour at overseas locations. Business is required to seek the lowest costs and in this case it will result in the airline going overseas.

I just wonder how many people would be happy to import the living conditions of some of these Asian countries.

Unless we have an aim to maintain a higher standard of living here in Aus as part of the business objectives and not just profits then this sort of stuff will happen until we balance out the standards of living across the world.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

QANTAS engineers are their own worst enemies. Just take engine overhaul, the RR manual specifies the tasks that must be attended, how to do it and how long each task should take. A full overhaul done according to the book should take something like 90 days. The service centres in Asia can and regularly do overhaul the engines as specified in the book on time.

QANTAS Engineering almost never completes the task on time usually it takes 50 to 100% longer, on the rare occasion when they have a concerted effort to complete the tasks on time and actually do it they all run around patting themselves on the back and then go back to running 50 to 100% over time and therefore budget.

[roverfan]

Who said they were the best paid?? Not me,.... only the people like Joyce whose personal bonus exceeds the entire amount sort by the workforce. This is ONE of the points leading to industrial action.
Oh how "evil" of Australian workers to stand up and want fair pay for skill.
Of course you wouldnt mind at all when this happens to your area of employment will you?

By the way you wont get cheaper fares because any margin will be paid to shareholders not jo public......... and engineering capabilities and Pilot experience to match ... why do you think Tiger were grounded?:angrylock: Because their cheap poorly trained/checked/ experienced pilots flew below lowest safe altitude on a number of occasions, endangering all on board and on the ground. But hey, who cares about that you got cheap fare didnt you?
Isnt ignorance just bliss. (the above is just one reason)

Always fascinated by people with no idea about Aviation other than finding the cheapest fare, suddenly have an opinion when they percieve themselves to be missing out. Rather easier to apply a broad base swipe at unions than to bother to find out what is really going on eh? BTW I am not in any union and have seen the damage some can do, but also see their value in many circumstances.

No doubt the same people will gladly diregard litigation equally, should there be an accident or even just a little scare to cause them some emotional trauma?

Funny how everybody bitches and moans about crappy mechanics on their vehicles and crappy aftermarket parts and blah blah blah, but suddenly want those same manufacturing countries and workers maintaining the machines that will take them and their families 12kms up and 700km/h for the price of bus ticket, but no way they will put that part on their vehicle or use that mechanic, cos its just not worth the risk!!!:twisted:

Hmmm folks wont bolt on a chinese winch in case it leaves them stranded for a few hours till help arrives but will take the chance at hurtling towards the ground in an aluminium tube for sake of a few dollars on an airfare.

For those who dont know, aircraft parts are specifically certified and, for the most part for this thread, will come from Boeing or Airbus industries.
So all operators will pay the same price for spares as the next operator. So nothing to be saved o/seas in this department. The difference is in the staff and their training and experience.

Some countries do an excellent job, while many are fraudulent, untrained and use second hand parts despite signatories and certification in maintenance log books stating otherwise.

cheers

One Question if the total cost of the demands from unions have a costing of 300million a year, This is more than the companies international business is making so how would that be met and still stay in business?

Yep all those pilots struggling to get buy on 350-500k a year must be doing it so tough, how do they make ends meet?

[strangy]

One Question if the total cost of the demands from unions have a costing of 300million a year, This is more than the companies international business is making so how would that be met and still stay in business?

Yep all those pilots struggling to get buy on 350-500k a year must be doing it so tough, how do they make ends meet?


And 350-500 a year? what a load of tripe. The best paid paid pilots are in Emirates and Cathay and barely a handful approach this.

The average Pilot wage in Australia is $75k With the majority not employed by a major Airline earning under $60k. While some Captains enjoy Salaries approaching 300k they are a minority. The average Captains wage is 140k, yet you feel they dont deserve this on what basis?
You obviously think its Ok for the top managers of stores, companies, businesses, site supervisors, equipment operators to earn similar and more dollars but not someone who has reached the top of their profesion, becasue they fly an aircraft.
I guess the same distaste is held for the members here who can afford a new Range Rover, D4 or Puma?

Fact vs fiction has been an issue with aviation disputes, policy and regulation since the Wright brothers flew.
I make no apology, as I said before people without experience or knowledge make lots of grand statements which are either outright false or out of context, but they believe it to be true regardless.
When it comes to truth and fact, aviation is almost shrouded in mystery and magic for those outside the field. This is evidenced in the sensationalist and often exagerated reporting on any aviation event.

The core issues though have been highlighted quite well in this thread by those with views on both side, which should sound alarm bells for workers in all industry here.

Aviation is a litmus paper for the economy both local and international.
Global competition in any field does not equal a level playing field and wont in the future either.

Job guarentees are not a reality for anyone anymore and I see pursuing this as a futile exercise. BUT if Qantas succeeds overall with this endeavour it will pave the way for Australian companies to set up offshore, force out their workforce and replace them with offshore employment contracts and staff. An outcome Qantas has made no secret of from the outset.

Despite the rantings of the militant in the Union (there are these types in all industries and judging an entire industry on this is poor) there is a core of genuine professionals whose livelihood is being threatened, by the actions of Qantas Execs. Lets not forget the 100,000's businesses and individuals who have suffered already because of this decision.

Money has to be made businesses have to be proftable sacrifices must be made.......if this becomes the norm for this country, I suspect there will be change of tune for many.

I readily acknowledge the cost of operating any business in Australia is high and soon to be untenable for many. But if everything manufactured or serviced goes offshore, then the country will become a global outlet for a "Mad Harrys/ Crazy Clints/ 2 Dollar Shop "


cheers

[roverfan]

The demands are unreasonable, I don't care how much anyone earns or what car they drive. The unions actions and demands are what will drive Australian business offshore.

If as you say they are on 75k and that's not enough maybe they should get a job elsewhere, no one forces them to be a pilot.

You seem to think I have an issue with making money, not the case at all I just think the unions gone to far. If the unions arent trying to milk qantas why did they agree to a wage freeze at virgin 12% lower than the current qantas rate? Because they see that red kangaroo as a cash cow.

I know during the gfc I was asked to take a wage freeze to keep the doors open, those above me took a paycut, yet the union wanted a frontline increase despite not having made a profit or hit targets for 18 months prior.

I believe qantas management is doing the right thing by it's shareholders, refusing to be ran into the ground by unions who don't care about the viability of the business. I've been on both sides of the fence and I can assure you unions don't care about the worker or the business anymore it's all about lining their own Pockets in the short term - like the demand on qantas by the pilots union of 1 million a year to fund 2 union reps thats right they want two of their own to earn around 400k a year paid by the company yet you claim a pilots only on 75, doesn't look like they are doing that to benefit the pilots.

In the end you obviously have a vested interest in the matter and feel anyone outside of the industry has an opinion that doesn't count.

[cartm58]

Howard Smith a victorian branch TWU official in the early 1990's explained his rationale for not giving a toss about the viability of a business during negotiations was it didn't matter what happened to the company or the bosses as the frieght task still had to be done by someone and if they replaced you doing the frieght task he would make demands on them same as he was making demands on you now.

His theory that it didn't matter who the members worked for as all bosses were arseholes anyway and he didn't care about bosses as they were all same anyway so if they went broke they got what they deserved.

[RR P38]

To all those who say the unions are out of order. I say fascism reigns supreme then. Unions have a right to exist as they are there to counter absolute power of the employer if all employers were angels we wouldnt need unions would we?
The unions involved in this dispute are not only fighting Qantas they are fighting against most of the broader business community. This is a litmus test what ever the outcome there will be broader ramifications for all of the work force.
A company that made $500m profit last year and has $2 billion in the bank is not broke. On top of this the CEO wins a 70% pay increase and he cant grant the workers 2-3%, it wreaks of hypocrisy.
Allan Joyce is another Sol Truilo does any one recal what he did to Telstra?
I think they are out of the same tank. I recal Truilo taking something like a $30m pay out before he left for home in Mexico after he sold of most of Telstras best assets to Bell south.
One thing both of these CEO`s had in common they had no loyalty to this country only the bottom line for share holders who also reside over seas.

[rangieman]

Who ever said the irish were stupid :eek: , In my opinion Allan Joyce has just killed off Quantas:twisted:
This is only my opinion:cool:

[85 county]

To all those who say the unions are out of order. I say fascism reigns supreme then. .

Wrong, Both Hitler and Lenin both outlawed unions, or just killed them of.



Unions have a right to exist as they are there to counter absolute power of the employer if all employers were angels we wouldn’t need unions would we? .

Wrong, they do not counter absolute power, it is the lack of absolute power that allows unions to exist. Re read pervious comments.


The unions involved in this dispute are not only fighting Qantas they are fighting against most of the broader business community. This is a litmus test what ever the outcome there will be broader ramifications for all of the work force. .

½ correct, this is a litmus test for the unions, who have had declining support for quite a number of years now. How ever as you can see from many of the posts in this thread that the average working Joe is not as susceptible to the Union spin as was the case a decade or more past.


A company that made $500m profit last year and has $2 billion in the bank is not broke. .

Sound impressive, how much of the cash on hand is in bond ( landing rights etc) how much is allocated for out of order or emergency expenses ( IE a crash, victims) how much of that cash is required to me held in forren banks so the airline can actually operate there. And how much of that cash is just turnover ?


On top of this the CEO wins a 70% pay increase and he can’t grant the workers 2-3%, it wreaks of hypocrisy. .

Firstly its not the CEOs decision, ( see absolute power) and if you can make a 500m dollar profit for me I would be more than happy to give you 1-2 million. But I think that you would need some education, and experience plus some reasonable IQ numbers to boot.


Allan Joyce is another Sol Truilo does any one recal what he did to Telstra?
I think they are out of the same tank. I recal Truilo taking something like a $30m pay out before he left for home in Mexico after he sold of most of Telstras best assets to Bell south. .

Dam good idea, sell all the aircraft and lase them back “on time” this will control costs and get rid of the commie engineers. Just to the same as that FAT Australian CEO of anssett did.


One thing both of these CEO`s had in common they had no loyalty to this country only the bottom line for share holders who also reside over seas.

So you don’t contribute to your super fund then?? Or do you have your retirement overseas?

YOU forget, the unions are ---------- a business, they need to make a profit as well

[strangy]

.................
In the end you obviously have a vested interest in the matter and feel anyone outside of the industry has an opinion that doesn't count.

I am in the avaition industry, I make no secret of my job, I am proud of what I do and who I work for. I am not a member of any union, I can only dream of some of the stupid numbers thrown about.
I work darn hard in one of the most complex and challenging aviation environments in this country. I love my job, I am good at it, I could double my salary tomorrow by changing employment but gain great satsifaction and work life balance from where I am.
Myself, colleagues, family and friends find our positions and livelihood under threat every 5 years or so when contracts come up for renewal from o/seas competitors.

I am particularly happy for those who have no idea what this feels like as theirs' is a rare, privelidged and endangered position.

When opinions based on popular opinion, twisted truths and sometimes outright lies are bandied as fact, I will say something about it.

Anybody is entitled to have an opinion and yet any opinion formed from incomplete, incorrect, political, financial bias is questionable in value.
Again no apologies for pointing that out.
cheers

[roverfan]

To all those who say the unions are out of order. I say fascism reigns supreme then. Unions have a right to exist as they are there to counter absolute power of the employer if all employers were angels we wouldnt need unions would we?
The unions involved in this dispute are not only fighting Qantas they are fighting against most of the broader business community. This is a litmus test what ever the outcome there will be broader ramifications for all of the work force.
A company that made $500m profit last year and has $2 billion in the bank is not broke. On top of this the CEO wins a 70% pay increase and he cant grant the workers 2-3%, it wreaks of hypocrisy.
Allan Joyce is another Sol Truilo does any one recal what he did to Telstra?
I think they are out of the same tank. I recal Truilo taking something like a $30m pay out before he left for home in Mexico after he sold of most of Telstras best assets to Bell south.
One thing both of these CEO`s had in common they had no loyalty to this country only the bottom line for share holders who also reside over seas.

A 500 million profit for a company with the asset base of qantas is pretty much broke mate.

[Ean Austral]

Slightly off topic...but it always surprises me when I read about how CEO's seem to be able to grant their own pay package...

A friend of ours was the Boss of the biggest bank in australia for several years, the board set him tasks of streamlining the bank and making profit..which he did, when he left he walked away with about $10 mil plus shares, and the media gave him hell.

He had camera's at his house, his kids schools and his life was disrupted no end....But what they didn't say was he started at the comm bank as a teller, put himself thru night school and studied business and economics, and proceeded to the top job, working for the same company for over 30 yrs.

The board decided his salary package, as they do in all major companies, so to say otherwise is incorrect.

I am sure that no CEO wakes up 1 day and decided to disrupt not only the company he works for but also all its costomers as has happened here, there must be a major reason for it.

I am not in the airline industry, so dont really know the ins and outs but according to the CEO's interview on the ABC, he had 200 meeting with the unions and fair work australia, if that is true then he's final decision is understandable.

I can only hope it is sorted quickly for everyone's sake.

Cheers Ean

[John W]

I don't like the man (so what) and I think he should have given some notice but this is probably the only way to resolve this mess in a timely manner so I will give him the benefit of the doubt but he had better deliver.

My other observation is that in a business as large as Qantas is in now almost impossible to run it in a family friendly caring and empowering sort of way and according to their pilots that I talk to they do not even make a pretence of trying. Ignoring common sense and reasonable requests in rostering as an example. Alienate & disempower your staff, get some union radicles and here we are.

[inside]

If you're into Twitter follow Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/leigh_howard)

He's sending tweets from the actual hearing.

leigh_howard leigh_howard
Pilots: Qantas lockout not a genuine attempt to force negotiation. Instead it is attempt to deprive unions right to strike #Qantas
1 minute ago

leigh_howard leigh_howard
UniSA case: the UniSA action affected nursing grads especially, b/c they could not commence their new jobs withhout their grad certificate
2 minutes ago

leigh_howard leigh_howard
Pilots: taking tribunal through UniSA case. That case involved a suspension for action that was to prevent students from graduating #Qantas
4 minutes ago

[THE BOOGER]

And 350-500 a year? what a load of tripe. The best paid paid pilots are in Emirates and Cathay and barely a handful approach this.

The average Pilot wage in Australia is $75k With the majority not employed by a major Airline earning under $60k. While some Captains enjoy Salaries approaching 300k they are a minority. The average Captains wage is 140k, yet you feel they dont deserve this on what basis?
You obviously think its Ok for the top managers of stores, companies, businesses, site supervisors, equipment operators to earn similar and more dollars but not someone who has reached the top of their profesion, becasue they fly an aircraft.
I guess the same distaste is held for the members here who can afford a new Range Rover, D4 or Puma?

Fact vs fiction has been an issue with aviation disputes, policy and regulation since the Wright brothers flew.
I make no apology, as I said before people without experience or knowledge make lots of grand statements which are either outright false or out of context, but they believe it to be true regardless.
When it comes to truth and fact, aviation is almost shrouded in mystery and magic for those outside the field. This is evidenced in the sensationalist and often exagerated reporting on any aviation event.

The core issues though have been highlighted quite well in this thread by those with views on both side, which should sound alarm bells for workers in all industry here.

Aviation is a litmus paper for the economy both local and international.
Global competition in any field does not equal a level playing field and wont in the future either.

Job guarentees are not a reality for anyone anymore and I see pursuing this as a futile exercise. BUT if Qantas succeeds overall with this endeavour it will pave the way for Australian companies to set up offshore, force out their workforce and replace them with offshore employment contracts and staff. An outcome Qantas has made no secret of from the outset.

Despite the rantings of the militant in the Union (there are these types in all industries and judging an entire industry on this is poor) there is a core of genuine professionals whose livelihood is being threatened, by the actions of Qantas Execs. Lets not forget the 100,000's businesses and individuals who have suffered already because of this decision.

Money has to be made businesses have to be proftable sacrifices must be made.......if this becomes the norm for this country, I suspect there will be change of tune for many.

I readily acknowledge the cost of operating any business in Australia is high and soon to be untenable for many. But if everything manufactured or serviced goes offshore, then the country will become a global outlet for a "Mad Harrys/ Crazy Clints/ 2 Dollar Shop "


cheers

seems ther is some dispute about pilots wages read this
Qantas pilots on high flying wages | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/qantas-pilots-on-high-flying-wages/story-e6freuzr-1226165343157)

and it can be cheaked at
Airline Pilot Central - International (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/international.html)
maybe they are better paid than you think or they will tell you;)
and while many employed by smaller airlines dont made this sort of money we are talking about QANTAS the biggest in the country.

[Kandy]

Soooo whos gonna take their pride and joy off shore for a service then?????--- not me!:p

[CraigE]

And 350-500 a year? what a load of tripe. The best paid paid pilots are in Emirates and Cathay and barely a handful approach this.

The average Pilot wage in Australia is $75k With the majority not employed by a major Airline earning under $60k. While some Captains enjoy Salaries approaching 300k they are a minority. The average Captains wage is 140k, yet you feel they dont deserve this on what basis?
You obviously think its Ok for the top managers of stores, companies, businesses, site supervisors, equipment operators to earn similar and more dollars but not someone who has reached the top of their profesion, becasue they fly an aircraft.
I guess the same distaste is held for the members here who can afford a new Range Rover, D4 or Puma?

Fact vs fiction has been an issue with aviation disputes, policy and regulation since the Wright brothers flew.
I make no apology, as I said before people without experience or knowledge make lots of grand statements which are either outright false or out of context, but they believe it to be true regardless.
When it comes to truth and fact, aviation is almost shrouded in mystery and magic for those outside the field. This is evidenced in the sensationalist and often exagerated reporting on any aviation event.

The core issues though have been highlighted quite well in this thread by those with views on both side, which should sound alarm bells for workers in all industry here.

Aviation is a litmus paper for the economy both local and international.
Global competition in any field does not equal a level playing field and wont in the future either.

Job guarentees are not a reality for anyone anymore and I see pursuing this as a futile exercise. BUT if Qantas succeeds overall with this endeavour it will pave the way for Australian companies to set up offshore, force out their workforce and replace them with offshore employment contracts and staff. An outcome Qantas has made no secret of from the outset.

Despite the rantings of the militant in the Union (there are these types in all industries and judging an entire industry on this is poor) there is a core of genuine professionals whose livelihood is being threatened, by the actions of Qantas Execs. Lets not forget the 100,000's businesses and individuals who have suffered already because of this decision.

Money has to be made businesses have to be proftable sacrifices must be made.......if this becomes the norm for this country, I suspect there will be change of tune for many.

I readily acknowledge the cost of operating any business in Australia is high and soon to be untenable for many. But if everything manufactured or serviced goes offshore, then the country will become a global outlet for a "Mad Harrys/ Crazy Clints/ 2 Dollar Shop "


cheers
Thanks for that.
There is so much BS as to what Pilots and engineers earn, The public seem to think they are on mega salaries and that is just wrong.
There are a few on $200k plus but as said they are a monority and have vast expeience of the worlds most difficult airports. Next time talk to a pilot and you will be in for a surprise. Rates vary dramatically and all they have been after is some sort of equalisation. IMHO they should all be earning around $200k with the training they put in and most often have to attain themselves (commercial pilots licence can cost upwards of $400k). Why should for example a pilot flying to Tokyo be paid one rate, one flying Sydney - Perth another and another Perth - Karratha another rate?:confused: They all fly jets and generally simmilar jets. Bugger me Haul Pack drivers can earn more than pilots with no skill and often no IQ, believe me I see it daily.
The reality is most are lucky if they break $100k and for the training and stress that is not much. Average train drivers are on $100-$220k without the training costs or responsability (not talking metro rail). OHS workers are often on up to $250k.
It seems what people are saying is it is ok for a con man to go to Uni and get a business degree and then unleash their psycpathic Narsascitic tendencies on employes and get paid obscene amounts of money, for basically doing squat other than bullying people. Yet we are happy for pilots, engineers etc to spend the same time training and get paid substantially less??:confused:. And that is all our CEOs are is con men.

[roverfan]

Thanks for that.
There is so much BS as to what Pilots and engineers earn, The public seem to think they are on mega salaries and that is just wrong.
There are a few on $200k plus but as said they are a monority and have vast expeience of the worlds most difficult airports. Next time talk to a pilot and you will be in for a surprise. Rates vary dramatically and all they have been after is some sort of equalisation. IMHO they should all be earning around $200k with the training they put in and most often have to attain themselves (commercial pilots licence can cost upwards of $400k). Why should for example a pilot flying to Tokyo be paid one rate, one flying Sydney - Perth another and another Perth - Karratha another rate?:confused: They all fly jets and generally simmilar jets. Bugger me Haul Pack drivers can earn more than pilots with no skill and often no IQ, believe me I see it daily.
The reality is most are lucky if they break $100k and for the training and stress that is not much. Average train drivers are on $100-$220k without the training costs or responsability (not talking metro rail). OHS workers are often on up to $250k.
It seems what people are saying is it is ok for a con man to go to Uni and get a business degree and then unleash their psycpathic Narsascitic tendencies on employes and get paid obscene amounts of money, for basically doing squat other than bullying people. Yet we are happy for pilots, engineers etc to spend the same time training and get paid substantially less??:confused:. And that is all our CEOs are is con men.

Well it was the union i got my figures from, But i digress no one has an issue with them earning vast amounts of money at all from what I have read on here. The vast sentiment seems to be they are trying to milk the company for as much as possible without giving the company anything extra in return.

Love how you hate on a CEO and trivialise what they do to get their position in life, have to ask how many multi billion dollar business have you ran? As theres a fair bit involved in becoming and acting as a CEO.

[RR P38]

Wrong, Both Hitler and Lenin both outlawed unions, or just killed them of.
So what else does Mr Joyce have in common with Hitler and Stalin then?

Wrong, they do not counter absolute power, it is the lack of absolute power that allows unions to exist. Re read pervious comments.
They maintain balance by keeping the Bastards honest

½ correct, this is a litmus test for the unions, who have had declining support for quite a number of years now. How ever as you can see from many of the posts in this thread that the average working Joe is not as susceptible to the Union spin as was the case a decade or more past.

So will we all be better off financially if unions cease to exist?
Why do business leaders want union power curtailed?
Do they just want to give me a pay rise out of the goodness of their hearts?
There are not many "average working Joe`s" today average indebted Joe`s maybe.
Sorry but i cant see that i will be better off without a union in my industry.

Sound impressive, how much of the cash on hand is in bond ( landing rights etc) how much is allocated for out of order or emergency expenses ( IE a crash, victims) how much of that cash is required to me held in forren banks so the airline can actually operate there. And how much of that cash is just turnover ?

Firstly its not the CEOs decision, ( see absolute power) and if you can make a 500m dollar profit for me I would be more than happy to give you 1-2 million. But I think that you would need some education, and experience plus some reasonable IQ numbers to boot.

Never mind the "Intelligence Quotient" how about no morals, no empathy and no qualms about relegating an entire work force to the scrap heap.
Qantas has been in the top 3 of the most profitable air lines globally for quiet some time. How much better can they get? and at what cost?


Dam good idea, sell all the aircraft and lase them back “on time” this will control costs and get rid of the commie engineers. Just to the same as that FAT Australian CEO of anssett did.

WOW "commie" engineers, heaven forbid that some people have differing views on things.
Yep lets sell the farm and ship it off to Asia and loose one of our premier training facilities and dumb down out technical expertise some more.
I would love for my kids to have an apprenticeship at Qantas.
Ooh and Ables was not an Aussie either.
And he shipped an Awful lot of money back to Israel to help the war effort in his home land

So you don’t contribute to your super fund then?? Or do you have your retirement overseas?

Yes i contribute to an Industry fund, and only we benefit as members and im more than happy with my returns.

YOU forget, the unions are ---------- a business, they need to make a profit as well

"Forget" nothing, what sort of clap trap is that unions are a business if they are its only in the sense that they are looking after their members in return for their union fees.

[roverfan]

"Forget" nothing, what sort of clap trap is that unions are a business if they are its only in the sense that they are looking after their members in return for their union fees.

Take it you have never been to a union lunch?

[VladTepes]

Ean that friend of yours wouldn't happen to be called David ?


On the QANTAS thing I know a bloke who is no doubt one of thsoe highly paid QANTAS captains. And what does he do with his money... ****es it away onm Lanmd Rover Discoveries. Some people eh ! Anyway the point is, when you're in a plane and a chiunk of it "explodes" and falls away into the slipstream you don;t hear to many people complainging how well paid pilots are then ! Until they land and the excitement has worn off, then they start whinging again.

[roverfan]

I don't see anyone complaining about how much pilots get paid, I'm all for earning as much as you can but there are times when you may have to make a small sacrifice to endure you can still earn that that money in 12 months time.

[VladTepes]

Oh and another point - QANTAS pilots haven;t gone on strike, haven't threatened to go on strike and aren't about to go on strike. It's just that today there are no aeroplanes to fly



"Forget" nothing, what sort of clap trap is that unions are a business if they are its only in the sense that they are looking after their members in return for their union fees.


Umm, no.
Putting the QANTAS situation to the side for a moment..

Unions are there for Unions. The work they do "for their members" is basically them shoring up their income stream. Unions are POLITICAL.

Look at the high quality people in Unions, and I don't mean just the Labor pollies that emerge from them.

Craig Thomson misappropriating funds in paying for prostitues on his Health Services Union credit card. The NSW Labor government subsequentlty pays $150,000 in legal bills for him to ensure he doesn't go bankrupt thereby losing his seat in pareliament which would cause Gillard to lose governemnt (in all probability).

Dean Mighell from the ETU (Victorian branch) arranged the donation of $325,000 of union funds (i.e. from union members dues) to assist them in winning seats in parliament (reps and senate).
Union bankrolls Greens (http://www.theage.com.au/federal-election/union-bankrolls-greens-20100817-128iu.html)

So I'm afraif if you think they all work just in their member's interests you are a little naive. That MAY have been the case 30 years ago but times have changed.

[cartm58]

I worked for Union 30 years ago. nothing has changed it is still ALP politics first themsleves second, members third.

As l predicted Fair Work Australia, terminated the bargaining periods of the Unions and therefore makes strike action illegal and will now arbitrate on the claims and QANTAS jets be flying from Monday business as usual.

QANTAS used the only tactic legally available to it under the Fair Work Act and the only legal tactic available to employers to end Union strike action during EBA negotiations since 1994 when Peter Reith and John Howard created this system of bargaining.

[cols110]

Qualified Aircraft Engineers with the appropriate approvals are one of the rarest species on the planet. Something the Airline Execs know has been the case for a long time and not going to improve in the near future.
All Qantas engineers will have jobs tomorrow if they want with almost any airline they want. Leaving the Airline in ruins.


Sorry mate, if this is what the general opinion is within Qantas it is seriously misguided, with the strength of the Australian Dollar most of the senior Engineers with decent approvals will take a fair pay cut not rise if they work overseas, fact not fiction(I am talking permanent Employment & not short term contracts). The Australian License will get you by in Asia but without an EASA license, preferably issued by the UK CAA the average Qantas Engineer will have limited decent job prospects in the wider overseas market. I hold 4 National Licenses & approvals on most Buses & Boeings & I do not earn what most senior Qantas or John Holland Engineers earn. I have friends in both places & know the figures. Australia is also in a bubble with good employment figures, step outside into the US or Eurozone & the realilty will bite that your concerns with Qantas management are quite minor compared to others just trying to hold onto their job & pay the bills. I dislike both unions & management & in Qantas's case I am not sure which is worse. I worked for Air Canada for 3 years in LHR for my sins & the Unions were far more destructive than the paymasters. Until both sides sit around the table & accept reality, huge harm is being done to Australia as a Nation in the eyes of the overseas public, both sides need to sort their crap out or Qantas will go the way of many other legacy carriers which is into liquidation.

For Australia's sake I hope this does not happen.

It makes no difference to the punters. If the airline is grounded by management or flts are cancelled by Industrial action, if they miss their flt they will look to fly with another airline then everyone within Qantas will be looking for another job. Remember Ansett.

[Kandy]

Anyone going to book a Qantas flight?? -- Some wags at work want to pass the hat around for Joyce and get him a ticket to Ireland -- Singapore airlines (to be sure) -- one way -- one suggested a bus ticket:p

[GregTD5]

Once again, the armchair warriors get on their high horse, berating all as being overpaid, because they get paid more than themselves.
There has been no issue with Qantas domestic Pilots, they are on an agreement that is current until next year.
Qantas international Pilots are the ones that have been negotiating with Qantas. They are looking for a 2.5% increase in wages (negotiable) along with job security as Qantas is looking to go offshore. Yes some of them earn a good wage. But it also comes down to seniority, there are many Pilots at Qantas, that have been with there for over 30 years.
Remember when Qantas A380, QF 32 took off from Singapore with 466 Persons on Board and lost an engine, I bet there was no-one in Australia complaining about the amount Capt DeCrispney was earning at the time.
If this was an out sourced crew, I would doubt that the ending would not have been so positive.
Baggage handlers have been in negotiation for the past 8 months and are asking for a 5% wage increase plus 1% on superannuation. Once again negotiable. Qantas has been holding out and not negotiating. Baggage handlers have only striked for 5 hours over 8 weeks.
Engineers are asking for job security as well and put a ban on overtime. If Qantas has so many aircraft grounded due overtime ban, maybe they need to employ more permanent Engineers. Many Qantas planes are already maintained overseas, with very poor Maintenance Practices and Supervision. Ever noticed, there is a greater number of aircraft problems with the Qantas fleet over the last few years.
I know if I'm on a flight and some thing goes wrong, Im happy to have an over paid Qantas Pilot in command, he'll do his best to earn his wage then.

For those of you that are anti union, I'd love to know if you work a 38 hr week, get sick, bereavement, carers and annual leave, with loading. Do you work in a safe environment. These have been brought to you over the years bye the union movement.
I bet the Chinese workers making your Apple products, or Indians making shoes, or Cambodians making your clothes, wouldn't mind access to a union.

[Ean Austral]

The ABC last night said that the pay rise awarded to the CEO was based on performance and if he can turn around the losses on the international side of QANTAS.
So until this time next year the CEO is actually 4% worse off..

Cheers Ean

[roverfan]

Once again, the armchair warriors get on their high horse, berating all as being overpaid, because they get paid more than themselves.
There has been no issue with Qantas domestic Pilots, they are on an agreement that is current until next year.
Qantas international Pilots are the ones that have been negotiating with Qantas. They are looking for a 2.5% increase in wages (negotiable) along with job security as Qantas is looking to go offshore. Yes some of them earn a good wage. But it also comes down to seniority, there are many Pilots at Qantas, that have been with there for over 30 years.
Remember when Qantas A380, QF 32 took off from Singapore with 466 Persons on Board and lost an engine, I bet there was no-one in Australia complaining about the amount Capt DeCrispney was earning at the time.
If this was an out sourced crew, I would doubt that the ending would not have been so positive.
Baggage handlers have been in negotiation for the past 8 months and are asking for a 5% wage increase plus 1% on superannuation. Once again negotiable. Qantas has been holding out and not negotiating. Baggage handlers have only striked for 5 hours over 8 weeks.
Engineers are asking for job security as well and put a ban on overtime. If Qantas has so many aircraft grounded due overtime ban, maybe they need to employ more permanent Engineers. Many Qantas planes are already maintained overseas, with very poor Maintenance Practices and Supervision. Ever noticed, there is a greater number of aircraft problems with the Qantas fleet over the last few years.
I know if I'm on a flight and some thing goes wrong, Im happy to have an over paid Qantas Pilot in command, he'll do his best to earn his wage then.

For those of you that are anti union, I'd love to know if you work a 38 hr week, get sick, bereavement, carers and annual leave, with loading. Do you work in a safe environment. These have been brought to you over the years bye the union movement.
I bet the Chinese workers making your Apple products, or Indians making shoes, or Cambodians making your clothes, wouldn't mind access to a union.

Once again someone jumps on their high horse without actually reading the responses in the thread, I can not find one post berating anyone for earning more than them.

You also have left out the part about the grading changes as part of the union demands than equal an increase much larger than the 2.5%.

Yes I am anti union, Yes when i did work i enjoyed the benefits the unions originally fought for but as an ex union employee and ex corporate sector finance employee these days they arent fighting for your rights thats for sure.

So calm down and read the posts before you decide everyones jealous of the pilots wage as i cant find one post to suggest that, but i can find plenty from the people on your side of the argument deriding the CEOs salary :)

[Chucaro]

A report from the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics shows Jetstar cancelled 2.1 per cent of flights in September, while Qantas cancelled 1.8 per cent.

The first major Qantas disruptions began on September 20, when more than 4000 Qantas baggage handlers and ground staff stopped work for four hours as part of an ongoing row over pay and conditions.

While Jetstar is a subsidiary of Qantas it has been largely unaffected by the Qantas strikes.

The actions of the union did not afected much the cancellations in Qantas.
Qantas have a profit of 1/2 billon dollars which compared to other airlines it is not bad. Well better that Air France :)
So stop bashing the unions which have the credit to give all of us good and safe working conditions and decent wages.
Those that do not like the workmanship done by the Qantas workers can go and fly in the no frills crop dusters from other countries ;)
IMO the Qantas workers deserve all the money that are asking and if there is not enough in the box, then reduce the wages of management.

[solmanic]

Anyone going to book a Qantas flight?? -- Some wags at work want to pass the hat around for Joyce and get him a ticket to Ireland -- Singapore airlines (to be sure) -- one way -- one suggested a bus ticket:p

Maybe they can charter him a flight on Ryannair for $20. That would be a fair punishment in my view.

[Chucaro]

He would like to implement Nepal Airlines sevice program which after a long series of technical problems with one of their two Boeing 757s, Nepal Airlines decided to sacrifice two goats in front of the plane in order to fix it. :eek:

[strangy]

seems ther is some dispute about pilots wages read this
Qantas pilots on high flying wages | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/qantas-pilots-on-high-flying-wages/story-e6freuzr-1226165343157)

and it can be cheaked at
Airline Pilot Central - International (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/international.html)
maybe they are better paid than you think or they will tell you;)
and while many employed by smaller airlines dont made this sort of money we are talking about QANTAS the biggest in the country.

If you view this as AUD you think Q pilots are on more. Benefits and USD have the others on a better deal. While the high AUD gives a good slant it is only temporary.
Qantas has made huge savings in acquisition and spares costs against it's competitors with the highAUD and GFC.

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