Something other than R380?

[Tins]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, so feel free to move it.
Does anyone know of a relatively simple, reasonably priced conversion to replace the R380 gearbox in a 300TDi Disco? The 380 is a nice box to use, but I've never come across a manual box so subject to complete, unexpected, failure. It's time to move on.

[justinc]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, so feel free to move it.
Does anyone know of a relatively simple, reasonably priced conversion to replace the R380 gearbox in a 300TDi Disco? The 380 is a nice box to use, but I've never come across a manual box so subject to complete, unexpected, failure. It's time to move on.

The suffix K or L box is easily strong enough and give very few problems, I'm guessing yours is 1994 to 1997 then? Suffix J were pretty average in the performance and reliability department. There is no other easily adaptable trans avialable that I know of, so start looking for a box from a 1998/9 D1 Tdi, or order one from Ashcrofts in UK, they will build one in Suffix L spec for you.

JC

[rick130]

Quaife in the UK are about to release a six speed sequential shift dog 'box to replace the R380, but I'd reckon you'd need a pretty good $$$$$ limit on your credit card to acquire one :D

[edit]It's been released, 8950.00 quid http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qbe86g

[PAT303]

R380's are prone to sudden failure just like any other manual box,thats the way it is.I also don't think the problem is as dramatic as you put it as many R380's are doing fine at big K's,I'd get an Ashcroft built box and forget about it. Pat

[ramblingboy42]

I think if you just get it rebuilt with new hi quality bearings and seals itll be as good as new for a long time

[justinc]

Yup, Like Pat says, I have seen many in the 400,000km bracket, and some fail at 100K, change the oil at regular intervals, don't try and put 400Hp through it and use a Suffix K or L and you should be fine for ages.

What is the history of yours?

JC

[B92 8NW]

Yup, Like Pat says, I have seen many in the 400,000km bracket, and some fail at 100K, change the oil at regular intervals, don't try and put 400Hp through it and use a Suffix K or L and you should be fine for ages.

What is the history of yours?

JC

Don't want to change the direction of the thread but how do you find ZF4P22's around 97/98 fare? (Well technically that is "something other than R380"... so on topic).

Mine is regularly serviced with Transmax Z and has been pressure tested and I'm told its as good as the day it was made. But at nearly 300 grand I think it might be time to start a rebuild money jar:D

[justinc]

Don't want to change the direction of the thread but how do you find ZF4P22's around 97/98 fare? (Well technically that is "something other than R380"... so on topic).

Mine is regularly serviced with Transmax Z and has been pressure tested and I'm told its as good as the day it was made. But at nearly 300 grand I think it might be time to start a rebuild money jar:D

A piece of string question, is it behind a Tdi or V8? If a V8 they tend to last longer strangely enough if driven sensibly, when they fail it is usually sprag or TC . The Tdi version suffers a lot more from heat, and the fact that the smaller TC is very light duty in the lock up clutch etc etc.

I have seen many V8 ones at over 300K, but lots of Tdi ones fail at 200 to 250K.

Best ones IMO were 1998/9 versions of both V8 and Tdi, they seem to have upped the line pressures and shift quality etc they are noticeably crisper to drive.

JC

[wrinklearthur]

The suffix K or L box is easily strong enough and give very few problems, I'm guessing yours is 1994 to 1997 then? Suffix J were pretty average in the performance and reliability department. There is no other easily adaptable trans avialable that I know of, so start looking for a box from a 1998/9 D1 Tdi, or order one from Ashcrofts in UK, they will build one in Suffix L spec for you. JC

Hi JC

What is required to upgrade a R380 J to a K or L suffix ?
Besides a load of Martin Cash !
Can a J suffix case, be used in doing the upgrade?

Cheers Arthur

[rick130]

Hi JC

What is required to upgrade a R380 J to a K or L suffix ?
Besides a load of Martin Cash !
Can a J suffix case, be used in doing the upgrade?

Cheers Arthur

From what Dave and Ian Ashcroft have said in the past, a new box Arthur ;)

I started to write something but found this in another thread....


This suffix J did unfortunately have a couple of design flaws which gave the R 380 some bad press, they were prone to the mainshaft shearing across the oil feed holes, the layshaft also sheared at a stress concentration behind the sandwich plate causing loss of 5th and reverse also early ones still suffered from mainshaft wear until the cross drilled transfer case gears became fitted as standard on the suffix G transfer cases.
In 1999 the suffix K was used very briefly for a few months then came the suffix L. The K and L are virtually identical, the only difference I have found is the L outer main casing has an additional strengthening rib, internals are the same. The J and K/L are very different, 2 of the bearings were substantially uprated and pinion and layshaft teeth were widened again, this results in a much stronger unit.From here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/124753-r380-layshaft-failure.html
So I'd infer from that they are substantially another box.

Dave posted recently that they are looking at modifying/upgrading a few of the bearings (bigger) again in the R380 to make it a bit more reliable.
[edit] here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1487155-post45.html from this thread http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/72660-r380-5th-gear.html

[Tins]

The original box was a suffix L. It failed due to a leak from a Fred Smith installed cooler. ( Note, in no way am I blaming Fred! )
The box currently in the car came from a 140k '95 model. The suffix is not known, as the car is elsewhere.

I've ben around cars one way or another for more than 40 years, and I have NEVER known a manual gearbox to fail completely, supplying no drive except in direct, without warning. And I have had, and worked on. a large number of British and Italian cars in that time. Both the R380's have failed this way, leaving the car stranded. Not even the Daimler DB18 managed that! So, Pat, I know there are many out there going fine, but to have a car that is simply driving down the freeway at 100 K's suddenly lose drive and come to a stop is "dramatic". There was no noise, no warning.

The oil level in the current box is correct. The oil is that recommended by the aforesaid F Smith.

The car is a 300TDi. It's driven in an economical way, and has that oil cooler fitted.

Given that there seems to be no conversion you guys are aware of that meets the needs of simplicity and price, and price would also rule out the Ashcroft option as well, do you reckon a reasonably competent ex mechanic, armed with an overhaul kit ( $550, waiting for a parts list ) and a LR repair manual, but no special tools could take on a rebuild of the J box? I haven't done anything like it in more than 20 years.

[Psimpson7]

The original box, if it was in a tdi, wouldn't have been suffix L I don't think if it was the original one with the vehicle.

When you say the first one failed because of an oil leak, what happened / broke?

The one you have now is likely to be suffix J. Presumably that broke the mainshaft, or the splines have gone on the back of the main shaft?

With regard to rebuilding it.....

They are not easy, but not impossible. LR suggest a lot of special tools. I did mine without any of them.

[Tins]

The original box, if it was in a tdi, wouldn't have been suffix L I don't think if it was the original one with the vehicle.

When you say the first one failed because of an oil leak, what happened / broke?

The one you have now is likely to be suffix J. Presumably that broke the mainshaft, or the splines have gone on the back of the main shaft?

With regard to rebuilding it.....

They are not easy, but not impossible. LR suggest a lot of special tools. I did mine without any of them.

The original, as in the box that was in the car when my son bought it, had been fitted by Fred Smith as a NEW gearbox. I still have it 55A.0798448L is clearly marked near the drain. ( Fred knows the car, as he fitted most of the good stuff, such as Maxdrive axles, Locker, Lower T/F case gearing, diff guards etc.
This box lost drive except in fourth/direct. It hasn't been stripped for diagnosis.
As for the other, it's still in the car while my son gnashes his teeth and curses all things LR.
I'm heartened by you saying you did yours without special tools.
I think I will strip the L box to see what happened.
The kit I mentioned comes from CLR 4WD Parts. Do we know them?

[Psimpson7]

Gary at CLR is pretty good - I have used him. I tend to get all my box stuff straight from Ashcrofts in the UK though.

As you say take it apart and see how you get on / whats damaged.

Getting the collar off the back of the mainshaft is a pain. You will need quite a big puller.

Take a lot of pictures of how it looks as you take it apart. I took a lot and they were a life saver!

good luck!

[Tins]

R380's are prone to sudden failure just like any other manual box,thats the way it is.I also don't think the problem is as dramatic as you put it as many R380's are doing fine at big K's,I'd get an Ashcroft built box and forget about it. Pat

Now I'm aware of the different types of boxes that were used, I take your point, but broken mainshafts etc don't happen in too many cars that I'm familiar with. Even my fragile Fiats don't do that. But this car has had two failures of an apparently similar nature, i.e. total loss of drive. There could, of course, be two different causes, but my experiences so far cause me to distrust this gearbox. I suppose I'm a little spoiled by the ZF auto unit in my TD5.

As for the Ashcroft unit, I'm afraid his budget doesn't run to $1300 ( Unit + core price ) plus who knows for shipping plus the time it takes to get here. It would be nice, though.:)

[Tins]

Gary at CLR is pretty good - I have used him. I tend to get all my box stuff straight from Ashcrofts in the UK though.

As you say take it apart and see how you get on / whats damaged.

Getting the collar off the back of the mainshaft is a pain. You will need quite a big puller.

Take a lot of pictures of how it looks as you take it apart. I took a lot and they were a life saver!

good luck!

Thanks. How long does it take for stuff to come from Ashcrofts? I don't mean a whole box, but bearings, synchro's etc?

As for the collar, I have access to a press. Will that do?

Photos??? I take photos of EVERYTHING I take apart these days. Sometimes that's the only way I ever see the thing the way it used to be! Mostly, though, the memory ain't what it used to be.

[rick130]

John, if you click on the links I've posted above you'll see Pete's layshaft failure and be able to read some of Dave Ashcroft's input into how, where and why they let go.

[Psimpson7]

Thanks. How long does it take for stuff to come from Ashcrofts? I don't mean a whole box, but bearings, synchro's etc?



4-5 days. They are very quick.



As for the collar, I have access to a press. Will that do?

.

For putting it back on yes, but not for getting it off. I just bought a puller from tradetools - cost about 50$

[Tins]

John, if you click on the links I've posted above you'll see Pete's layshaft failure and be able to read some of Dave Ashcroft's input into how, where and why they let go.

Not a pretty sight. Some interesting reading there though.

[Tins]

4-5 days. They are very quick.



For putting it back on yes, but not for getting it off. I just bought a puller from tradetools - cost about 50$

From the UK? That's more than quick!

So a gear puller? I've got a couple of those, but I'll see when I start I guess.