Locking hubs

[Warb]

I now have three different types of locking/freewheeling hubs, the Selectro, another of similar design (not Selectro but I can't remember the name, or even if they are marked) and finally on the '59 S2 a completely different design.

This last set, and I'm assuming they're locking hubs although I haven't experimented with them, require a screwdriver or coin to rotate a pair of discs/knobs on the face of each hub, being marked with arrows ("V"') on both the hub and the disc. Presumably the arrows are aligned to lock (or unlock?).

Does anybody know anything about these particular hubs, and how they compare in strength and reputation against the Selectro's?

[isuzurover]

Firstly - fitting FWH to a series landie only accelerates wear of the swivel pin bush and brinneling of all the front end bearngs, with no measurable benefit to fuel consumption.

Selectros are weak and prone to cracking the main casing. I have cracked one (before I saw the light and removed the FWHs entirely), and I know several others who have done the same.

The other type you mention are stronger than selectros IME.

However - do yourself a favour and flog them all off on ebay and ft some drive flanges instead.

[Warb]

The third set (one central knob) are labelled "Warn Locking Hubs", I'm assuming it's a brand name not an instruction!

Experience with a Hilux has indicated that freewheeling hubs give better fuel economy, a better turning circle and logically reduce tyre wear, though I've never really noticed one way or the other.

Interesting that they don't improve the fuel economy on a Land Rover, and that being the case there is really no reason to have them fitted anyway!

[isuzurover]

The third set (one central knob) are labelled "Warn Locking Hubs", I'm assuming it's a brand name not an instruction!

Experience with a Hilux has indicated that freewheeling hubs give better fuel economy, a better turning circle and logically reduce tyre wear, though I've never really noticed one way or the other.

Interesting that they don't improve the fuel economy on a Land Rover, and that being the case there is really no reason to have them fitted anyway!

A hilux is not a landie. Hiluxes have grease lubricated CVs and swivels, which means lots more drag and therefore fuel consumption gains with FWHs.

However - There is no way that fitting FWHs will give you a better turning circle - on ANY vehicle.

I doubt there would be a measurable improvement in tyre wear - even on a toyota.

[Warb]

There is no way that fitting FWHs will give you a better turning circle - on ANY vehicle.

I always figured that the additional drag of the CV's and diff when the locking hubs were locked was what caused me to be just unable to do a u-turn in the laneway when the hubs were locked, when I could make the u-turn when they were unlocked. I guess I just noticed whether they were locked when I stuffed the turn, and didn't bother looking when I didn't. It's entirely possible, most of the farm vehicles either make that turn easily or not at all, but that Hilux made it or missed it by an inch!

Looks like the '59 will get those hubs removed!

[Gavo]

I never thought about the swivel pin wear my series III always had warn swivel pins, they would not get any oil on them.
The other bad point I never thought of is if you break a rear axle. This happened to me good thing the wife was with me. I broke an axle going up a hill in the middle of town and free wheel hubs were unlocked I found out you don't get any hand brake either. The old push down the yellow know didn't work.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I now have three different types of locking/freewheeling hubs, ...
...This last set, and I'm assuming they're locking hubs although I haven't experimented with them, require a screwdriver or coin to rotate a pair of discs/knobs on the face of each hub, being marked with arrows ("V"') on both the hub and the disc. Presumably the arrows are aligned to lock (or unlock?).

Does anybody know anything about these particular hubs, and how they compare in strength and reputation against the Selectro's?They are Shute Upton Engineering (SUE) hubs and are about the poorest of all designs. Behind that slot is a cam of a half circle, and the halfshaft is connected to a sprocket.

Turned one way, the cam has the half circle to the outside of the hub and the sprocket rotates freely within the space of the cam. Turned the other way, the half circle engages in the sprocket and prevents the halfshaft turning freely.

The problem is that it is easy to have one cam engaged and the other one disengaged, this will put all the load over one point in the alloy casing and explode out the side, although they also had a reputation of exploding the cams out both sides at the same time. It was not unheard of to see vehicles with a clamp around the SUE hub to reduce the risk of housing failure.

However all this is moot, because as others have said, FWH have more disadvantages than they do advantages.

Diana

[JDNSW]

In my experience, the Warn hubs are the pick of them, and I actually have them fitted to my 2a (paid $15 for them, complete with a rolling 88 chassis).

However, I carried out tests of performance and fuel consumption with and withoout them engaged, and have been unable to find any difference. There may be a barely perceptible improivement in acceleration, but that is it, and it would be less than the accuracy with which you can repeat the test.

In my view they have two advantages - firstly, they enable the use of low range as a creeper gear on hard surfaces - useful for such things as hooking up trailers, driving in parades etc, and secondly they allow you to put off replacing the spline joint in the front prop shaft after it has got to where it has excess slop for high speeds, but is OK for offroad.

My hubs remain engaged almost all the time.

John

[Warb]

The problem is that it is easy to have one cam engaged and the other one disengaged, this will put all the load over one point in the alloy casing and explode out the side, although they also had a reputation of exploding the cams out both sides at the same time. It was not unheard of to see vehicles with a clamp around the SUE hub to reduce the risk of housing failure.

Having removed all the bodywork and pressure washed the chassis and mechanicals, with all the dirt removed I can see that one of the SUE hubs has buckled outwards and cracked as described above...........

[Johnno1969]

Firstly - fitting FWH to a series landie only accelerates wear of the swivel pin bush and brinneling of all the front end bearngs, with no measurable benefit to fuel consumption.

Selectros are weak and prone to cracking the main casing. I have cracked one (before I saw the light and removed the FWHs entirely), and I know several others who have done the same.

The other type you mention are stronger than selectros IME.

However - do yourself a favour and flog them all off on ebay and ft some drive flanges instead.

I broke freewheeling hubs under moderate load once. Changed to original drive flanges. Love them. Will never go back to freewheeling hubs. Fuel economy is 30mpg with standard hubs at present....

[wagoo]

The early finned alloy Warn hubs are as weak as a very weak thing. The inner drive member, adapted and machined from a 10 spline Jeep/Scout version has a very thin wall thickness and shears easily.
The alloy Selectro hubs aren't much good either, but early versions had a case hardened steel body and were very strong. But the pot metal locking/unlocking cam rings tended to break after a bit of use. There were strong aftermarket cam rings availabe back in the day.Not anymore.
The Shute Upton hubs are crap. I rolled my first Landy halfway down a mountainside years ago when I lost front drive after the pins on one of the hubs turned into the free position.
The version that looks and operates similar to Selectro is probably made by Fairey.I have no personal usage experience with these although they appear well made. Good used ones are hard to find because most people don't know how to remove them without smashing the twist knob.
Bill.

[Landygirl]

Ok i currently have the warn free wheeling hubs on the front and after taking them off to put in some new seals and check out the wheel bearing etc i found that they are very bad, the little pins that run around the inside of the driving member had fallen out and where all over the place, letting the outside gear that runs on the end of the halfshaft flop around, which would not have been a good thing if i had put it into 4wd once it was running,

I have now decided on the advice of another land rover owner to get the power lock hubs being the ones with the 2 'coin slot holes' however i have searched google (have not yet spoken to my parts people) and can no find them anywhere. These ones are a lot stronger than the warn or any other like them and yes you can have them on lock constantly.

if anyone does know where i can get these or has some they are willing to sell please let me know

[Warb]

If you read the thread above, and various other locking hub threads, you will see that the consensus is that freewheeling hubs do not give any benefit on a Land Rover, and create a raft of potential problems.

The Power-Lock hubs were made by Cutlass Manufacturing. Some information here; CutlassHub (http://www.willystech.com/wt/cutlasshub/cutlasshub.htm)

Personally, after reviewing all the information I could find, I decided to remove the freewheeling hubs. The thing that I found most disturbing was the concept that under certain circumstances (broken rear axles or propshaft) freewheeling hubs can result in the handbrake not working! Being a transmission handbrake, if a hub is free to rotate the wheels can turn even when the handbrake is on. The thought of being stuck halfway up a hill with no drive and no handbrake is not one I relish!

[Gavo]

Ok i currently have the warn free wheeling hubs on the front and after taking them off to put in some new seals and check out the wheel bearing etc i found that they are very bad, the little pins that run around the inside of the driving member had fallen out and where all over the place, letting the outside gear that runs on the end of the halfshaft flop around, which would not have been a good thing if i had put it into 4wd once it was running,

I have now decided on the advice of another land rover owner to get the power lock hubs being the ones with the 2 'coin slot holes' however i have searched google (have not yet spoken to my parts people) and can no find them anywhere. These ones are a lot stronger than the warn or any other like them and yes you can have them on lock constantly.

if anyone does know where i can get these or has some they are willing to sell please let me know

I have a set of them don't know what they are like contact me if your interested. I could take them off and sent some pics.

[chazza]

I concur with Warb - get rid of the stupid things,

Cheers Charlie

[pfillery]

If running with drive flanges, doesn't this mean the whole front axle from hubs to diff to gearbox is turning and wearing the whole time you are driving? Surely this can't be good - I would have thought at first that regardless of the fuel consumption issue, components used only for the 4wd function turning constantly when using 2wd would be a superfluous thing? I would have thought that it would result in more wear, more drag and more noise especially on the highway.

To qualify this, I do not do much if any off road work so rarely engage them anyway. I have heard of people removing the front driveshaft and running them as 2wd only as well.

[Blknight.aus]

if you're never going to use fourwheel drive then you can pull a whole lot of bits out to get rid of some mass and to reduce wear.

Trust me on this. go back to the normal permanent drive setup and deal with the minor piffling that it costs you in fuel, acceleration and braking distance. Its worth it to maintain the knowledge that a, the swivel pins (which hold the front hub assemblies on and let you steer) are being correctly lubricated and b, that when you get a taste of the kind of moronic drivers I get to deal with, get hung up on a Queensland pot hole, find a slimey piece of grass or otherwise need the front wheels to do their bit for the locomotive process you can simply manipulate one of 2 controls inside the cab and have it happen.

One of the insurmountably great pleasures of landy driving is:- after having turned up and spent the day getting ragged on by other breed drivers calmly sitting at the wheel of the landy just after its started pouring down rain on an open field watching the mitsutoyosan drivers tail sliding, chewing up ground getting nowhere then running round in the rain and mud trying to lock in hubs so they can drive out of the rapidly quagmiring area that they've all but destroyed the surface cohesion of as you calmly snick back the red and all but Idle your way to the gate.

Its right up there along with sitting by a fire in a torrential storm blacked out house drinking a coffee hot from the fireplace while eating a jaffle snuggled up with the family wondering how the yuppies are getting on.

[Blknight.aus]

Sam the Eagle "You Are All Weirdos!" - YouTube

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/500.jpg

Questions?

[chazza]

If running with drive flanges, doesn't this mean the whole front axle from hubs to diff to gearbox is turning and wearing the whole time you are driving? No; it means the whole drive train is turning and being splashed with oil, or rubbed with grease. Using free-wheel hubs means the top swivel pins and bushes don't get lubricated and the propellor shaft bearings wear badly in one position. In addition the bearings and gears in the diff rely on bump splash to wet them, rather than thrown-oil from the crown wheel.Surely this can't be good - I would have thought at first that regardless of the fuel consumption issue, There is no fuel consumption issue - free-wheel hubs do not reduce fuel consumption to any noticeable point.components used only for the 4wd function turning constantly when using 2wd would be a superfluous thing?Perhaps so but why have a 4WD if you never intend to use it? I would have thought that it would result in more wear, more drag and more noise especially on the highway. I don't know about the noise but there is so much noise anyway I doubt that any less noise from any axle would be noticeable.

To qualify this, I do not do much if any off road work so rarely engage them anyway. I have heard of people removing the front driveshaft and running them as 2wd only as well.

Even on-road, 4WD especially low-range, can be very useful for towing heavy loads for short distances. On gravel roads I always use High 4, it is so much safer in my opinion, not to mention the sudden change in road condition e.g. wet, or soft, which desperately needs that yellow knob to be knocked down as quickly as possible. Using 4WD also spreads the torsional loads between the two axles, instead of leaving the poor old rear axle to do everything,

Cheers Charlie

[vnx205]

Not everyone has bad experiences with FWHs.

When I bought my Series III at 110,000 km, it had FWHs on it. When I sold it at about 300,000 km, they were still there.

In those 200,000 km, I never had any reason to regret having them there and I found them useful for the couple of things that JDNSW mentioned. The spline on the front shaft had a bit of wear when I bought it and it still had a bit of wear when I sold it. I suspect that there might have been a vibration problem at highway speeds if the front shaft had been turning, but it was never a problem at the speeds i did with the hubs locked.

I adjusted the swivel pin bearings a couple of times and replaced them once.

So while the disadvantages of FWHs may be real, it seems that it is possible to do two or three hundred thousand kilometers without them showing up.

Mine were AVM manual locking hubs.

[Warb]

If running with drive flanges, doesn't this mean the whole front axle from hubs to diff to gearbox is turning and wearing the whole time you are driving? Surely this can't be good .....

I have always had freewheeling hubs on my Hilux's, and noticed that they provide a significant improvement in fuel consumption. However as a farmer they were engaged/disengaged almost daily.

On the Land Rover, however, I am told that it makes little difference to the fuel economy.

The issue (as has been mentioned above) is that if the front hubs are disengaged for long periods, none of the components forward of the transfer box rotate. So the oil drains off the upper sides of the components, risking damage (rusting, seizing) from lack of lubrication. Additionally the splined joint on the front propshaft, which slides in and out as the suspension moves up and down, wears unevenly because the weight rests on the top and bottom splines. When rotating, the top and bottom constantly change so the wear is spread evenly around the joint, but when disengaged this is not the case.

Whilst I have no experience of the fuel economy issue, I do have a front propshaft that has a flat spot on the splines (10mm or so lateral movement in the joint), and that vehicle does have freewheeling hubs.

And the lack of handbrake worries me.....

[Warb]

Not everyone has bad experiences with FWHs.
.....

So while the disadvantages of FWHs may be real, it seems that it is possible to do two or three hundred thousand kilometers without them showing up.

The SII that I am currently working on has freewheeling hubs, and the owner never had a problem. One hub is cracked, the front propshaft is destroyed (haven't opened the diff yet) but the vehicle still moved and she never noticed ;)

It is, of course, entirely possible to drive forever on FWH's. The question, to me, is whether they offer any significant benefits, and whether those benefits justify the risks.

For hard off-road usage, or high powered motors, they introduce another weak point in the system. If left disengaged for long periods they introduce the risk of uneven wear, lack of lubrication etc. Under certain cirumstance they stop the handbrake from working. On the other hand they may marginally improve fuel economy, though JD says otherwise from his experience, and they allow low range 2WD.

None of my LR's will ever be a daily driver, so fuel economy is not an issue. To me, the negatives outweigh the positives.

[Warb]

Having just this morning started stripping the front axle, and in the process chipping some paint from the hub (resprayed at some point, wheels and all!), I discovered that my "Shute Upton Engineering" hubs are in fact "Power-Lock" made under license. When I posted the link to the Powerlock data above, I thought they looked familiar!

So, some photo's. Note the crack on the hub, I've not tested but I assume there is no drive to the wheel. The peening on the crack is because the case had pushed out to such an extent that neither the wheel nor the brake drum would come off. I had to hammer the crack closed to get the wheel off!

41644

41645

These are going in the bin, but if anybody wants them for spare parts (the other one is not cracked as far as I know) they can have them for the cost of postage and packing! Can't say I recommend them though!

[101RRS]

Not everyone has bad experiences with FWHs.

I have to agree - though I know the reasons for not having them and it does make sense but my own experience is that I had no issues.

I have had FWHs on three vehicles - all daily runners and only engaged the hubs when offroad.

The first was AVM hubs on a series 1 that I owned for 8 years and was also a daily runner - I never had an issue and the car was smoother to drive with them unlocked - but the front drive shaft was a bit worn so the hubs prevented a lot of vibration on the highway.

The second was a Suzuki Sierra that I bought new and it had Aisan (s) hubs as standard. I did have some problems after a few water crossings but a cleanup fixed them. I had this for 3 years.

The last was on a series 3 landie - again a daily runner and no issues but more vibration when engaged but more due to a worn front driveshaft. Had this one for 5 years and I know is still on the road 20years later with the same front end.

So - benefits not a lot but can help with less vibration if you have wear in the front end.

Cons - again not a lot - I did not find any of the issues such as brindling of bearings and UJ wear in the swivel hubs.

I think it comes down to personal preference. I think that the downsides and the positives are overstated in both cases.

Garry

[Warb]

When I bought my Series III at 110,000 km, it had FWHs on it. When I sold it at about 300,000 km, they were still there.

The spline on the front shaft had a bit of wear when I bought it and it still had a bit of wear when I sold it.


The SII that I am currently working on has freewheeling hubs............the front propshaft is destroyed


The first was AVM hubs on a series 1 that I owned for 8 years and was also a daily runner - I never had an issue and the car was smoother to drive with them unlocked - but the front drive shaft was a bit worn so the hubs prevented a lot of vibration on the highway.

The last was on a series 3 landie - again a daily runner and no issues but more vibration when engaged but more due to a worn front driveshaft.

I'm a relative newcomer to Land Rovers, so I don't know if front propshaft wear is normal across the board, but here we have four vehicles with freewheeing hubs and propshaft wear to a degree that causes vibration at speed. Did the FWH's contribute to the wear? There is a logical reason why they should cause wear, but that doesn't prove anything. But if four out of four FWH vehicles show appreciable propshaft wear that surely raises questions?

[chazza]

I'm a relative newcomer to Land Rovers, so I don't know if front propshaft wear is normal across the board, but here we have four vehicles with freewheeing hubs and propshaft wear to a degree that causes vibration at speed. Did the FWH's contribute to the wear? There is a logical reason why they should cause wear, but that doesn't prove anything. But if four out of four FWH vehicles show appreciable propshaft wear that surely raises questions?

We can add a fifth rover to the list - my S3.

One of the front hubs had collapsed inside and the front propellor shaft was so worn on the splines, I had to chuck it. To my delight my spare S3 had no free-wheeling hubs and a perfect front propellor shaft!

In addition the swivels were badly worn, although that could be because someone had filled them with grease.

By contrast my '51 S1 had the splines in perfect condition, even though the uni-joints were cactus and my Disco has done 253 000km and the propellor shaft is fine.

If the best thing about free-wheeling hubs is that they mask a worn propellor shaft, then perhaps the cost of new hubs should be better spent on fixing the shaft.

I have also done exhaustive testing in the SES Landloser, which has FW hubs, by driving it to Albany and back (about 500km return) on the same route with the same driver numerous times and I couldn't detect any difference in fuel consumption,

Cheers Charlie

[101RRS]

I'm a relative newcomer to Land Rovers, so I don't know if front propshaft wear is normal across the board, but here we have four vehicles with freewheeing hubs and propshaft wear to a degree that causes vibration at speed. Did the FWH's contribute to the wear? There is a logical reason why they should cause wear, but that doesn't prove anything. But if four out of four FWH vehicles show appreciable propshaft wear that surely raises questions?


Front driveshaft wear has nothing to do with FWH (the rear driveshafts wear more and there is no FWH there). Being on the front and only used where 4wd is required they tend not to get maintained as much as they should - also when used you are normally offroad and going slowly so an slack is less noticeable - a worn driveshaft turning at speed on the highway with hubs locked chatters away and causes vibration. So not relevant to FWHs but if you have them fitted none of this stuff is turning so no vibration. My Suzuki front driveshaft never showed wear and my FWHs were unlocked all the time.

Garry

[fc110]

.........propshaft wear to a degree that causes vibration at speed. Did the FWH's contribute to the wear?
I have run a S1, S2, S2a & a 2b FC. over 30 years. Always had FW hubs, never had any problem with any wear! Liked the reduced vibration, even with unworn bits, & reduced steering feedback.

(1) always greased front prop every 500 odd Ks (both ujs & slider)
(2) always used approx 50/50 oil/grease mix in swivels.

Have noticed when driving a bonneted LR without floor that the front prop did actually slowly rotate at speed, although probably not enough to lubricate top swivel cone/railko. The absolute HUGE plus was being able to use 2WD low range on the FC. It generated huge wind up in 4WD on "very steep", for an FC :D, bitumen roads, eg Cooma to Tumut. Also when low speed reversing in confined areas.

Also I have never broken any hub, had SUE powr-lok, selectro & AVM. Seen broken of all, SUE thru not engaging BOTH pins, selectro thru external tree contact & AVM from not fully engaging (rotating) knob. Yes, I have broken axle UJs, but that's not the hubs fault, nor lack of lubrication.

From my experience, I've had about 40 LRs thru my hands, that front prop re-lubrication is usually pretty poor by most owners. I've had very few with FWHs, but nearly every front prop sliding joint was stuffed. Also most had little or no oil in front swivels by the time I got them.

I can't make any claim about fuel economy, my LRs have done what was required at the time, I just kept filling them up. :)

[vnx205]

I'm a relative newcomer to Land Rovers, so I don't know if front propshaft wear is normal across the board, but here we have four vehicles with freewheeing hubs and propshaft wear to a degree that causes vibration at speed. Did the FWH's contribute to the wear? There is a logical reason why they should cause wear, but that doesn't prove anything. But if four out of four FWH vehicles show appreciable propshaft wear that surely raises questions?

I would not have described the wear on my front spline as "appreciable". The slight wear that was there could just as easily have been caused by 110,000 km with negligible maintenance.

Surely a more significant factor is that probably because of the FWHs, there was no necessity to replace it during the next 200,000 km.

[Warb]

So maintenance or lack thereof, regular engagement or lack thereof all play a part. I'm not convinced about the lack of maintenance specific to front propshafts - if the owner or mechanic is underneath with a grease gun I find it hard to believe that he/she would ignore the front shaft because it doesn't get much use......

Nevertheless, having removed the uncracked SUE PowerLock and run it through the parts cleaner, here are more photo's for anyone interested:

(Photo from rear of unit) When disengaged, the hub spins separately to the driveshaft on this nylon bush.
41685


The engage/disengage is done by rotating a pair of cams in the deeper lobes of the aluminium hub.
41686


The cam itself (one of a pair per hub). The cam is sealed with a O ring to prevent grease exiting through the faceplate (or dirt entering). A spring pushes the cam down in to the hub, where a pair of depressions line up with the two lobes on the base of the cam to help locate the cam in either the engaged or disengaged position (in practice it can be left at any position with nasty consequences). When engaged, the solid side of the cam engages the star gear, and the drive is transmitted to the case only by the two 5mm sections (on the right hand side in this picture).
41687

When engaged, the drive is transmitted through two cams to the outer case of the hub which is about 5mm thick at this point. Because the star gear is attempting to push the cam outwards, this is the point of failure where the case gives way and the cam is forced out through the side. This reportedly happens mainly when only one cam is engaged, though some people say they have seen both sides pushed outwards simultaneously.
41688

Witness marks on the inside of the hub show where the two 5mm lobes of the cam transmit the drive when the hub is engaged.
41689

Although I can't upload a sixth picture in this post, the solid side of the cam and the star gear both have witness marks showing where the drive is transmitted from the star to the lobe on the cam when engaged. Rather than being even wear across the full surface, which would demonstrate a well mated pair of components, both show that contact is made only over a strip about 1.5mm wide. The surface of the cams appears to be breaking down to some extent, and strangely shows several strips of engagement whilst the gear shows only one per lobe - perhaps the hub has been run with the cams not quite aligned correctly?

[wagoo]

Leaf sprung Landrovers with the exception of the early 80'' versions tend to wear their front props out faster than other 4x4s. This is due to the spring shackle placement behind the axle (others have shackles in front)Every time the front suspension compresses the slip yoke compresses and brooches a little more metal off the splines.A telescoping joint tends not to wear so much. Probably preferable to have the propshaft turning to even out the wear.I believe the Australian Army used to flip their front propshafts so that the slip joint was at the other end, which it was claimed reduced propshaft whipping at speed in 2wd.
I met a bloke many years ago who performed a shackle reversal on his lwb series one.This vehicle was a daily driver and used extensively for outback touring.He told me that since the modification his propshaft lasted 3 times longer, and the vehicle was much more surefooted on steep climbs in 4wd to boot.
bill.

[pfillery]

I've been told by quite a number of people who see my land rover that the hubs I have (exactly the same as those pictured by you Warb) are one of the best FWH setups around. They said that most people only removed them because they were big and not the most attractive thing to look at but that as far as a comparison to other fwh systems they are apparently the bees knees.


So maintenance or lack thereof, regular engagement or lack thereof all play a part. I'm not convinced about the lack of maintenance specific to front propshafts - if the owner or mechanic is underneath with a grease gun I find it hard to believe that he/she would ignore the front shaft because it doesn't get much use......

Nevertheless, having removed the uncracked SUE PowerLock and run it through the parts cleaner, here are more photo's for anyone interested:

(Photo from rear of unit) When disengaged, the hub spins separately to the driveshaft on this nylon bush.
41685


The engage/disengage is done by rotating a pair of cams in the deeper lobes of the aluminium hub.
41686


The cam itself (one of a pair per hub). The cam is sealed with a O ring to prevent grease exiting through the faceplate (or dirt entering). A spring pushes the cam down in to the hub, where a pair of depressions line up with the two lobes on the base of the cam to help locate the cam in either the engaged or disengaged position (in practice it can be left at any position with nasty consequences). When engaged, the solid side of the cam engages the star gear, and the drive is transmitted to the case only by the two 5mm sections (on the right hand side in this picture).
41687

When engaged, the drive is transmitted through two cams to the outer case of the hub which is about 5mm thick at this point. Because the star gear is attempting to push the cam outwards, this is the point of failure where the case gives way and the cam is forced out through the side. This reportedly happens mainly when only one cam is engaged, though some people say they have seen both sides pushed outwards simultaneously.
41688

Witness marks on the inside of the hub show where the two 5mm lobes of the cam transmit the drive when the hub is engaged.
41689

Although I can't upload a sixth picture in this post, the solid side of the cam and the star gear both have witness marks showing where the drive is transmitted from the star to the lobe on the cam when engaged. Rather than being even wear across the full surface, which would demonstrate a well mated pair of components, both show that contact is made only over a strip about 1.5mm wide. The surface of the cams appears to be breaking down to some extent, and strangely shows several strips of engagement whilst the gear shows only one per lobe - perhaps the hub has been run with the cams not quite aligned correctly?

[Warb]

I've been told by quite a number of people who see my land rover that the hubs I have (exactly the same as those pictured by you Warb) are one of the best FWH setups around. They said that most people only removed them because they were big and not the most attractive thing to look at but that as far as a comparison to other fwh systems they are apparently the bees knees.

Yet on this very forum it has been stated that they are about the weakest FWH's ever made! I guess personal opinion and experience, and possibly peer pressure or "learned opinions" play a big part!

I have had good experiences with FWH's on Hilux's, but without a great deal of personal experience of using them on LR's in all honesty I can only judge by what I have seen whilst trying not to be too influenced by what people have said.

On that basis, I have three sets of FWH's on Series Land Rovers. The only set that have self destructed, as far as I know, are the SUE PowerLocks as pictured above. One other set (Warn?) have external damage from hitting something, obviously always a risk when the unit pokes out the side further than anything else!

Having cleaned and examined the PowerLock, considered the materials used, the design and the wear patterns shown, I can't say I'm overly impressed. Whilst the Series LR is not the worlds most powerful vehicle, there is still the potential for the entire output of the engine, and the inertia of spinning wheels, to be transmitted as a shock load through the FWH. In the case of the PowerLock, all that energy goes through four cam lobes, each 5mm across, on to an aluminium case that is less than 5mm thick at its thinnest point.

Given the issues of lubrication, strength and handbrake interference, each user must weigh up the pro's and cons and decide for themselves. I have never needed 2WD low range (though I tow trailers almost daily), don't do lots of mileage (so possible fuel savings aren't important), and am replacing all the driveshafts and bearings so I don't need vibration reduction or want any risk of increasing the wear on these new components. On that basis......

It's perhaps also worth considering that whilst locking hubs have been available for much (if not all) of the life of the vehicles, Land Rover themselves as far as I know never chose to fit them. Whilst I fully understand the economics of car production, if the designers of the vehicle thought that they genuinely added value without adding risk, would they not have offered them at least as an extra cost option? It is unlike car manufacturers to allow somebody else to make an easy profit fitting options to their cars!

[pfillery]

I know what you are saying.

I've never had the need or inclination to engage 4x4 either high or low in 15 months of series ownership, even managing to pull another dead series 3 lwb (with low tyre pressure, and one stuck brake drum) up a wet grassy hill in 2wd.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I know what you are saying.

I've never had the need or inclination to engage 4x4 either high or low in 15 months of series ownership, even managing to pull another dead series 3 lwb (with low tyre pressure, and one stuck brake drum) up a wet grassy hill in 2wd.I would rather engage 4WD and not risk breaking something, but then again I'm obviously a chicken.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I've been told by quite a number of people who see my land rover that the hubs I have (exactly the same as those pictured by you Warb) are one of the best FWH setups around. They said that most people only removed them because they were big and not the most attractive thing to look at but that as far as a comparison to other fwh systems they are apparently the bees knees.If you are talking about the SUE hubs, they are only the bees knees if you only have mosquito knees to compare them with.

SUE hubs are the only brand of hubs that I have actually seen parts coming out the side of. Yes they are big and yes they do protrude a lot but they get removed because they have the worst reputation for failure bar none.

[Blknight.aus]

I would rather engage 4WD and not risk breaking something, but then again I'm obviously a chicken.

with a sals down the back and any series engine up the front on standard series gear you aint gunna break nothing in 2 hi it'll stall or you'll burn out the clutch, and frankly if you manage to burn out the clutch in a series in a single shot you deserve to drive a kia.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

with a sals down the back and any series engine up the front on standard series gear you aint gunna break nothing in 2 hi it'll stall or ...Except we are in the Series 2a section and very few SIIa had Sals rear.

[Landygirl]

So what the general consenus on what the best hubs are?

1. Warn
2. SUE
3. No hubs
4. Other brands

This tends to get confusing after a while

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So what the general consenus on what the best hubs are?

1. Warn
2. SUE
3. No hubs
4. Other brands

This tends to get confusing after a whileIMHO No hubs
AVM/new Warn
Old Warn
MAP
Selectro
Any other brands
SUE
2WD

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So what the general consenus on what the best hubs are?

1. Warn
2. SUE
3. No hubs
4. Other brands

This tends to get confusing after a while No hubs
AVM/new Warn
Old Warn
MAP
Selectro
Any other brands
SUE
2WDAlthough some of the list could be compared to the Ford Vs Holden debate, particularly in our parents generation.

[Warb]

I'd probably put no hubs 1st, and having inspected the insides of the SUE I wouldn't even put them on the list, so:

1/ No hubs
2/ Other brands

I can't prioritise between the other brands because I have yet to examine them.

[wagoo]

My portals with large diameter bottom shafts don't give me the option of using off the shelf FWHs, but my choice would be.
1,-Steel bodied Selectros with upgraded cam rings.
2- Fairey
3- no hubs.
4-Early AVMs that have a proper bronze bushing in the housing to support the halfshaft drive member instead of it riding directly in the cast iron of the hub body.
No other options.Tried all the other brands and they are crap.
Don't need to worry about lack of lubrication to other front end components because I 4wd often enough that this is not an issue. Why would anyone own a series LandRover if not to regularly use the 4wd feature:confused:
Bill.

[Landygirl]

Thanks thats awesome i think im just going to go with new warn hub but maybe the heavy duty one not just the standard! now all i have to do is find out who sells them.

Anyone know?

Also the spacer type things behind them that go between the hub and the freewheel mechanism do they come with the hub as thats actually whats broken on mine

[Lotz-A-Landies]

My portals with large diameter bottom shafts don't give me the option of using off the shelf FWHs, but my choice would be.
1,-Steel bodied Selectros with upgraded cam rings.
2- Fairey
3- no hubs.
4-Early AVMs that have a proper bronze bushing in the housing to support the halfshaft drive member instead of it riding directly in the cast iron of the hub body.
No other options.Tried all the other brands and they are crap.
Don't need to worry about lack of lubrication to other front end components because I 4wd often enough that this is not an issue. Why would anyone own a series LandRover if not to regularly use the 4wd feature:confused:
Bill.Hi Bill

The Fairey are the MAP aren't they? Or at least fairey bought out Mayflower Auto Parts.

The big problem with the hubs is trying to find someone who has them, to be honest about what they have. How many times have you asked for USA/Au/GB Timken or Japanese bearings and received Indian Timken or Chinese something else.

Diana

[Warb]

If you look on Warn's web site you will find they don't list any hubs for Land Rovers. But they list their Sydney dealer as Ateco Equipment 02 8577 8151


Selectro are made by Milemarker (www.milemarker.com) and they still list both 10 spline and 24 spline LR versions.

[clubagreenie]

This is interesting as I has what has turned out to be SUE's (genuine SUE's as they were marked) on my 2a but could never ID them. Always thought they were OK as I never had a failure, they were easy to service (just orings) and held the wheel up to align the studs when changing.

[wagoo]

Hi Bill

The Fairey are the MAP aren't they? Or at least fairey bought out Mayflower Auto Parts.

The big problem with the hubs is trying to find someone who has them, to be honest about what they have. How many times have you asked for USA/Au/GB Timken or Japanese bearings and received Indian Timken or Chinese something else.

Diana

Hi Diana. I believe the earlier Fairey hubs were of the same design as the MAP types, where they were engaged by turning a hexagonal knob with a 15/16'' wheelbrace. These hubs had a habit of occasionally skipping and slipping as the palls cocked in their slots and rode up the unlocking cam ramps,
The later Fairey hubs were similar in design and operation to Selectro hubs with the exception that Faireys use a sqare section nylon strip that is fed through a hole in the twist knob and slots into an annular groove in both the knob and the hub body. This strip retains the knob to the body instead of the 3 screws that Selectro use to do the same. This feature is the cause of the destruction of many Fairey hubs by mechanics and others that couldn't decipher how the hub is assembled. I believe they are the only FWH that was tested and approved by LandRover. Not that that is much of an endorsement, seeing as LandRover also approved Fairey overdrives, and we know what they are like.
Bill.

[wagoo]

I ran a driveflange on one wheel and a steel selectro on the other for some years with no ill effects to the rest of the front end.This is similar in principal to some Toyota four runners and old Chev Blazers that had a vacuum inner halfshaft disconnect on one side only.The single hub has the advantage of vibration reduction, but there is just sufficient drag to roll the differential, halfshafts etc to keep things lubed.
Bill.

[Warb]

More photos of the Shute Upton PowerLock hub, this time "another way to die".


Rather than the star gear forcing the cam out through the side of the aluminium casing, this time the star gear itself lost a lobe....
41860


The lobe jammed between the star gear and the case, and pushed the side out. When unlocked, the loose piece of the gear can move about in the hub and sporadically jam, causing further damage. When locked, the hub can engage both cams or only one, depending on the position of the star gear. The driver has no idea this is happening until they notice the sides of the hub pushed out.
41861


The surface of the cams themselves are starting to break down, pieces are falling off and floating around in the grease.
41862


The nylon bushes, which provide the bearing surface between the drive axle and the hub when disengaged, are also failing.
41863


With the nlon bush removed, another crack is revealed. This time the area at the base of the cam has cracked. The cam is free to rotate, but the cracked area has trapped the cam and it cannot be removed.
41865

[Dana27]

G'day. Just wondering what sort of front diff a Landie has as I've got the same Shute Upton Locking hubs on my '64 Scout. Just stumbled on here as it was in the search list. I have exactly the same hub but only one and if a Land Rover runs the same DANA 27 Diff then I may have just found my applicable donor to fit one to the drivers side, maybe they had a blow out before I bought it:wasntme:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

G'day. Just wondering what sort of front diff a Landie has as I've got the same Shute Upton Locking hubs on my '64 Scout. Just stumbled on here as it was in the search list. I have exactly the same hub but only one and if a Land Rover runs the same DANA 27 Diff then I may have just found my applicable donor to fit one to the drivers side, maybe they had a blow out before I bought it:wasntme:A series 2a Landy has a Rover diff at the front end.

Freewheeling hubs are not popular with many members here and the SUE brand are considered the least popular of all, mainly for the problems you describe, personally I'd recommend you send the SUE hubs to the recyclers and fit plain flanges.

As for whether they would fit, the Land Rover halfshaft has 10 spline halfshaft and 6 retaining bolts. However if the PCD of the retaining bolts are the same you may be able to use the Land Rover housing and your own internals. Throw up a wanted ad in the markets section and see if you have any luck.

[Dana27]

A series 2a Landy has a Rover diff at the front end.

Freewheeling hubs are not popular with many members here and the SUE brand are considered the least popular of all, mainly for the problems you describe, personally I'd recommend you send the SUE hubs to the recyclers and fit plain flanges.

As for whether they would fit, the Land Rover halfshaft has 10 spline halfshaft and 6 retaining bolts. However if the PCD of the retaining bolts are the same you may be able to use the Land Rover housing and your own internals. Throw up a wanted ad in the markets section and see if you have any luck.
Cheers LotzALandies, 10 Spline and 6 bolt is what I have so as soon as I can learn how I will. Thanks for your help

[wagoo]

G'day. Just wondering what sort of front diff a Landie has as I've got the same Shute Upton Locking hubs on my '64 Scout. Just stumbled on here as it was in the search list. I have exactly the same hub but only one and if a Land Rover runs the same DANA 27 Diff then I may have just found my applicable donor to fit one to the drivers side, maybe they had a blow out before I bought it:wasntme:
Afraid the PCD of the landRover hub is larger than the Scouts.Try Willys Jeep spares, as some models ran 10 spline Dana 27 front ends.
Bill.

[Dauntless]

So how good/bad are the free wheeling hubs on my 2A? It seems nobody has mentioned them so far

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1204.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1205.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1206.jpg

[123rover50]

They look the same as the AVM,s

[wagoo]

So how good/bad are the free wheeling hubs on my 2A? It seems nobody has mentioned them so far

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1204.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1205.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1206.jpg

On very early AVMs the inner splined member rode in a bronze bush fitted to the housing. These lasted quite well unless the outer stub shaft snapped, in which case the guts of the free wheel hub would get pushed out through the dial.Later AVM s were rubbish and wore out quickly as they deleted the bush so that the splined member rode directly in the hubs cast iron housing. If your Dualmatics have a bushing they may be good quality providing the housing was cast either from steel or good quality nodular iron.