93RRC 3.9 into 98 Disco 1 3.9 possible ?

[400HPONGAS]

Yep , blown gasket , loose liner in the 98 D1 3.9 .The 93RRC engine is good as new ! even has 10 bolts heads allready on it !!
So , the RRC 3.9 ,being V-belt , gear oil pump type obviously is pretty different to the Serpentine / gerotor pump type D1 engine .(obviously the entire inlet / injection system should be a straight changeover)
Now , can they be swapped ? so just remove Harmonic balancer from D1 3.9 and fit to RRC 3.9 , and then fit all the D1 serpentine drive accesories as the heads/timing cover location is the same . obviously the oil pump and oil cooling lines are differently orientated , nothing to hard to changeover (they are both auto's as well ) .
Come to think of it are the auto's both 22's or is the 98 D1 a 24 ?
Crank ref sensor on 98 3.9V8 and not on the 93RRC ?
Plus 100 other minor little issues no doubt !!
Will it be as simple removing all the front end drive gear from the 98 D1 3.9 and fitting it up to the RRC 3.9 .? (it appears so !!)

[Lucus]

You can knock the crank sensor mount out of the 98 block and chemiweld it in place on the 93 block.

Im 99% sure the 4.0/4.6's with the sepentine front cover have a longer crank snout (hence the need too run a space behind the pully when running the multi bet front end on the later blocks)

[PhilipA]

Im 99% sure the 4.0/4.6's with the serpentine front cover have a longer crank snout (hence the need too run a space behind the pulley when running the multi bet front end on the later blocks)

Yep and the earlier crank does not have a long keyway to fit the oil pump to so it involves removing and modifying.
Autos both 22s.



Will it be as simple removing all the front end drive gear from the 98 D1 3.9 and fitting it up to the RRC 3.9 .? (it appears so !!)

NO As above no because all RV8s are BACKWARD compatible not Forward compatible as they couldn't afford to employ clairvoyant engineers, the cheapskates.

Regards Philip A

[400HPONGAS]

Ah so !!!
So perhaps the only real modification needed is to Cut down , or indeed space out the D1 harmonic and pulleys to suit the 93RRC crank , if thats possible !!! ??
If the outer seal and inner shaft diameters are the same ? And to fit a CRS point to the back of the Block ?
Also , if they were both ZF22's then the old RRC had the Borgy , and the D1 98 had the Lt230 , a straight swap maybe ??

[PhilipA]

So perhaps the only real modification needed is to Cut down , or indeed space out the D1 harmonic and pulleys to suit the 93RRC crank

Huh?
The point is that the V belt crank does not have a long enough keyway to fit the oil pump gear on to the end of the crank so you cannot fit the newer front with crank oil pump unless you lengthen the keyway in the crank, which is AFAIK a crank out job.( or fit the later crank and a set of bearings).

Des Hamills book 'How to Power Tune Rover V8 Engines says on P18

"On these engines(interim 3.9/4.2) the crankshaft nose(sometimes referred to as the 'snout') was the same length as on all previous engines, but the key/keyway was longer.An early 3.5 3.9 or 4.2 engine's crankshaft key was long enough to drive the new crank driven oil pump, but was not sufficiently long to also engage an "interim" engine's crankshaft damper keyway."
Regards Philip A

[400HPONGAS]

Dont know if we are getting this backwards
The deal is to fit a 93RRC 3.9 into a 1998 D1 .
Ok , all is well , it is only the Thor , coil pack engines that have the Longer snout , the oil pump/serpentine thing is irrelevant , the Harmonic balancer will come straight off the D1 98 3.9 and fit straight onto the the 93RRC crank / timing case . All the D1serpentine driven accessories will bolt straight back up on the 93RRC block exactlty the same as the D1 . (Just dont try it on a D2 4 litre , then all you do is fit a 20MM spacer inside the the balancer !) still have to fit a CRS though.

[Lucus]

Does your current engine have a crank driven oil pump?

[400HPONGAS]

The 93RRC has the side gear , dizzy driven ,oil pump as they all did , the 1998 D1 3.9 has the Crank driven gerotor oil pump as they all did .It appears that only the 4litre or D2 onwards 3.9/4.0 litres have the extended snout on the crank .. so sayeth Uncle Kev , so Ill check them out !

[Lucus]

disco engine has the crank driven pump hence the need for the 20mm longer crank, so i think you'l find the original comments about the 93's crank snout being too short are correct

[PhilipA]

the oil pump/serpentine thing is irrelevant , the Harmonic balancer will come straight off the D1 98 3.9 and fit straight onto the the 93RRC crank / timing case
But your balancer will spin merrily around with no woodruff key to hold it.
Look , unless Des Hamill's book is wrong , which I do not believe, the crank snouts of the interim and V belt engines are the same length of 70MM.

BUT THE WOODRUFF KEY SLOT AND THE KEY ARE SHORTER SO THE 98 HARMONIC BALANCER WILL SPIN AROUND.

The 4.0 and 4.6 have a longer snout which is 90MM long.
There are about 4 pages on this in Hamill's book.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

The 93RRC has the side gear , dizzy driven ,oil pump as they all did , the 1998 D1 3.9 has the Crank driven gerotor oil pump as they all did .It appears that only the 4litre or D2 onwards 3.9/4.0 litres have the extended snout on the crank .. so sayeth Uncle Kev , so Ill check them out !

Simple enough to find out, just remove both front pulleys and check the key position and nose length (measure back to the block edge with a ruler across the crank end), I think you will find PhilipA is correct! (unless someone fitted a later crank, miracles could happen:angel:)

[LRCounty]

I've just been through this.
Philip is spot on.

Once you take the timing covers and inlet manifolds off both your engines, the only difference you should see is that the keysteel is longer (and hence the slot it sits in, in the crank) on the serpentine block. The crank snouts are the same length as I understand it until you get to the 4.0L motor, and this was true for mine.

SO..to use your 93 motor with serpentine timing cover and ancilleries, you need to do what Philip says. Either have the slot in your '93 crank lengthened so you can fit the longer key steel, OR do what I did, and use the crank from the serpentine motor with the slot and keysteel at the correct length already. Obviously means new mains and big ends....don't mix those mains caps up between motors :eek:

On my driver side head, I also had to drill and tap a bolt hole for the serpentine alternator/aircon bracket, as it was blanked off on the older head from a V-belt motor.

One other thing is the cam. The 98 should have the retaining plate, and the 93 probably won't. I pulled a late 94 Disco serp motor apart (the first of the serpentines), and was very surprised to find NO cam retaining plate, and no bolt holes for one either. I don't know exactly when they were standard. But you will need to make a decision on whether you're happy to run the cam with no retaining plate and with the serp timing cover, or drill and tap to accommodate the plate, and get a new cam.

Cheers
Andre

[sheerluck]

One other thing is the cam. The 98 should have the retaining plate, and the 93 probably won't.

No retaining plate on my 98 when I pulled it out last year!

[400HPONGAS]

Interesting LRCounty, but Im not wishing to change Timing cases and if the remaining snouts are still the same length then wheres the problem ? arrangements. ?(if thats possible ?)So it could come down to whether the pulley places the polydrive in the correct position.Then would the power steer/altenator/water pump/air-con all still line up ?
Also wondering why the actual polyV drive hub bolted to the Harmonic Balancer couldnt be simply exchanged for the double V belt drive pulley , if indeed the harmaonic balancer itself cant be used .
Think Ill get a 98D1 suffix B harmonic balance with its PolyV pulley up from Perth and compare it with the original 93RRC VBelt harmonic and Vpulley drive.and as Beeutey says ,measure them up ,I could just machine them up to fit !!

[PhilipA]

So you are going to use the v belt timing case with camshaft driven pump and put the multi rib accessories on? I just reread your original post and you did say that in a roundabout way. I just assumed you wanted to put the later timing case on the earlier motor as this is what most do.
So sorrreeeee ( as my daughter would say when forced)

Could work if all the brackets fit and you can machine a poly pulley to line up if it doesn't. Oil cooler lines may be a minor problem.
This approach is not the purist as the later oil pump is supposed to be much better.
We would not have had pages of this if you had added at the start " including the 93 timing case "
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

Of course the serpy bits may indeed be able to be grafted to the vee belt timing cover but remember, the water pump rotates the other way! You will need to figure out how to drive the vee belt pump c/w and reconfigure the belt to fit. Possible? Maybe but I doubt it.

Hey, you're living in the bush, how 'bout extending your keyway with a slitting wheel on your small angle grinder? A job for steady hands.:eek:

[PhilipA]

Well spotted Bee utey. I missed that one .
Email sent re vac.
Regards Philip A

[400HPONGAS]

Yes , beeutey , that will be a problem , wonder what the 93RRC water pump will do when spun in the opposite direction , as isnt the Viscous hub a RH thread on the hub as well . So basically , looks like using the early model case isnt going to work , apart from the issues with harmonic balancer . Ah well , back to plan A then , pull it out Top hat liners , big solid cam , High comp , ported flowed heads ,look out 300HP He He He !! (just dreamin !!)