Incorrect rated rims

[Meccles]

Just a heads up dealer I brought the car from had aftermarket rims fitted at local tire dealer. These were 20" stormer copy. I had one wheel off and noticed they were stamped with max load of 665kgs, which is under what is legal/acceptable for a RRSport. The dealer accepted fault, and got the rims replaced. Same tire dealer, same rims in appearance, however, load rating on new rims is 815kgs, which is ok. When I was at the Wheel/Tire place (big place) they were real fuzzy on understanding the importance of load ratings. So there are out there rims of same appearance, same fitting/size, but different load rating, for RRS and by default Disco. Be careful.
Meccles

[33chinacars]

Have heard of this before . One Good reason to stick with factory rims.

Gary

[bbyer]

The numbers I have for the factory Cromodora rim load ratings are as follows:

D3/LR3 940 kg (2,072 pounds)

FFRR L322 925 kg (2,040 pounds)

RRSport 900 kg (1,985 pounds) wrong, RRS is 940 kg, same as the D3

[Neil P]

When I was fishing for tyre quotes last month , several tyre shops
suggested tyres that are under rated for a D3 . They ( many of 'em
, that is ... ) only think of size , not load . Hey Mate , "It's a tyre and
it fits the wheel" is a common tyre shop response . Duh ! Caveat emptor !
After market wheels are all too dodgy too.

[101RRS]

Same tire dealer, same rims in appearance, however, load rating on new rims is 815kgs, which is ok.

No - that is too low - requirements are about 920 Kg - is about 15kg less than a D3.

The standard RRS 18" wheel is rated at 940kg (just checked mine)

Garry

[101RRS]

RRSport 900 kg (1,985 pounds)

I think it is higher than that - about 920-925kg.

The standard 18" rims on a RRS are rated at 940kg (just checked my spare)

I looked this up some time ago - there is a thread somewhere on this.

Garry

[bbyer]

Actually the 940 kg makes more sense than the lower number. The vehicles are about the same weight, same frame design, and go to the same places, hence the difference puzzled me.

I wonder if I have always been wrong, (numbers are about 3 years old now), or if the wheels on the Sport were uprated when Land Rover discovered that the Sport was not just for "arriving" at the opera?:o

Thanks for the heads up.

[gghaggis]

Sport rims are rated lower than D3/4 rims - the 920kg figure sounds about right. The 19 and 20" rims are specific for each model, but I think all the LR D3/4/RRS 18" rims are 940kg.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Meccles]

According to dealer/service department of place the car came from (on Gold Coast big joint), anything over 750 kgs is legal. The GVM is listed as 3250 kgs, so with 820 kg per wheel this is within tolerance, just. To get them changed again would take legal action, and a fair old fight for sure. I will accept the 820kg for now. Apparently the car had 22" fitted when traded, which was reason they fitted new rims/tyres. I suspect the previous owner wore hoodies and baseball caps backwards! With a big gold chain. Whereas I wear anoraks!:)

[mervwho]

How much would you expect to pay for a factory rim to suit 18/19 or 20"?

[101RRS]

According to dealer/service department of place the car came from (on Gold Coast big joint), anything over 750 kgs is legal.

That is absolute nonsense - have an accident where it was determined that a wheel was a factor and you are not likely to get an insurance payout if they find out.

Other clues - the tyre placard indicates tyre with a minimum of 950kg load rating can be fitted. Also the max load on the rear wheels is 1710kg so that makes 855kg per wheel - some 35kg higher than what you have now.

I would be going back and demanding correct load capacity wheels for your car - if they will not then have them reported for selling unroadworthy vehicles - when a dealer sells a registered vehicle they are guaranteeing it is roadworthy.

Garry

[Meccles]

The rims fitted by dealer cost him 375 each. These are 20" x 9.5" I suspect genuine rims from dealer would be at least double that if not more. If you go to Duckworths in UK website they list genuine rims, though in UK.

[Meccles]

The tire placard on car lists 275/40 R20 106Y as the only 20" tire. There is no load rating as the 106 was I thought the tyre load rating. There are different tyre pressures listed for different loads.
There are 275/40 R20 106Y Hankook Ventus ST fitted. They have a load rating indicated on them of 800kgs.
So by the tyre placard, they are acceptable, correct?

[jonesfam]

On the D3 at least they do not list the rim load ratings.
I had to ask all over the place to find it.
It's not in the glove box manual either.
I remember it was over 900kg but not the exact figure, the BB6 wheels from Performance Wheels are rated well above this.
Jonesfam

[Meccles]

Just re checked with good light tyres have max load rating of 950kgs on them.
Thanks GarryCol I will talk to dealer again.

[101RRS]

The tire placard on car lists 275/40 R20 106Y as the only 20" tire. There is no load rating as the 106 was I thought the tyre load rating. There are different tyre pressures listed for different loads.
There are 275/40 R20 106Y Hankook Ventus ST fitted. They have a load rating indicated on them of 800kgs.
So by the tyre placard, they are acceptable, correct?

On the RRS tyre placard, under the list of tyres sizes listed there is a box that says the tyres fitted to the vehicle must have a load capacity of 950kgs or above.

According to the load index chart 106 tyres have a load rating of 950kgs

Load & Speed Ratings - Tips & Info - Bob Jane T-Marts (http://www.bobjane.com.au/load-speed-ratings.html)

I am not sure why your tyres would have a 106 load rating but indicate it is only 800kgs - something wrong there. The Hankook site has them listed a load rating of 950kgs.

So nothing wrong with those tyres - just the wheels.

Garry

[Meccles]

Email has gone off to dealer. I can hear the squeal from here!;)

[101RRS]

Good luck - the dealer should have known better.

I hope it all works out well.

Cheers

Garry

[33chinacars]

How much would you expect to pay for a factory rim to suit 18/19 or 20"?
Have seen genuine 18" L322 rims priced at ~$750

Gary

[bbyer]

I doubt that there is any fancy aftermarket alloy rim made that meets factory numbers for the 3. Well, maybe Cromodora makes some but they would not be cheap.

I would expect that there are aftermarket steel rims made for real working vehicles that meet LR spec, but that is why they are steel and are for working vehicles. I wonder what the Police spec Discovery's use - alloy or steel? Generally here in North America, all Police vehicles, (mostly Ford body on frame Crown Victoria's), have steel wheels; the civilian market gets alloy. The Chev Suburbans that the SWAT guys use are all steel wheels as well.

I alway think the one who writes the cheque is the final authority; that is most often the insurance company.

[Mike_S]

Police & Highways Agency spec Discovery's use alloys in the UK. I've seen them wearing every size from 17" to 19".

[Meccles]

Update so far, dealer is checking with LR Austraila as to what is official correct load rating. I have also contacted LR Aust, and am waiting for response from both parties. As FYI the original, 20" spare is rated at 860 kgs max load. Spoke to a few independent tire places they reckon that the tire placard does not automatically follow through to the rims. Be interesting to see what the "official" line is.

[TerryO]

I doubt that there is any fancy aftermarket alloy rim made that meets factory numbers for the 3. Well, maybe Cromodora makes some but they would not be cheap.




The 17" BB6 alloy wheels from Performance Wheels in SA not only match the standard OEM wheel load ratings but far exceed them. They will make any of their various design wheels to fit any vehicle to any size and spec as well as off sets as required.

And best of all they aren't that expensive either for a good quaility alloy wheel.

cheers,
Terry

[bbyer]

I found the link below to some BB6 and other alloy wheels. I was surprised at how high the load ratings were, 1,400 kg is quite impressive, I must say.

I did wonder about the positive offset numbers however. All the wheels in the link had a positive offset between 20 and 45 mm. The 3's factory wheel is 53 mm positive which by my understanding means the greater the P, the more the wheel wraps around the brake caliper. This can of course be a problem when fitting over sized calipers or smaller wheel diameters.

If I understand positive offset correctly, spacers do not solve a positive offset concern if the purchased wheel has an offset of a smaller P number than what one was trying to match up to. As such, I wonder if reduced positive offset, (which means the centreline of the tyre is closer to the outside), matters much to the suspension? I also have a feeling that the greater the positive offset, the more money the wheel costs.

http://www.performancewheels.com.au/Home/Wheels.asp'theGroup=4&Cat=4WD

[Meccles]

Wheels supplied by dealer details are:
Size 20x9.5" PCD 5x120, Offset 50, CB7255, Bolt Set 23.1*37. Max Load 815kgs. Brand is not stamped on them, nor on the box they came in. China???
Cost was $375 per rim.
Also spotted today anther RRS I am sure wearing same rims. Spoke to LRA today as they are having problems with email. They advised that info re what is correct required load rated rims is " not something we normally advise however we will check on it". Which surprised me. You'd think this was pretty easy question to answer.

[roamer]

HI Meccles.

You have obviously not dealt with LR Aust before,
So welcome to the world of "useless pack of bastards".

I think alot of the times the dealers wear the brunt of their incompetent,
couldn't give a dam, noncommited, I'll get back to you sir, crap :wasntme:

They should have been able to tell you the rim ratings or looked it up while you waited. Probably will tell you they need to check with UK. :o
Would find it odd if it was less than original ratings.

You will be better off hanging in with your dealer, they do seem to try,
And remember they have to deal with LR Aust as well, poor buggers

Cheers Ken...

Ps. Bet ya LR Aust don't ring back...

[bbyer]

I looked on the inside of one of my 6 spoke 19" Cromodora rims, LR part number ALY72191U, and in addition to the Land Rover logo and a sort of Ford marking plus Made in Italy moulded on the inside, there are other letters, all of which I believe to be wheel acceptance design standards.

These were E-DOT and the three closely spaced symbols, a stylized JWL that per the link below, are a Japanese standard. VIA is another Japanese standard linked to the JWL marking. It appears an aftermarket wheel to be sold in Japan must have both markings, (or at least VIA), but for OEM, the JWL only is OK.

I also looked inside an aftermarket alloy rim today and saw the word JAPAN and the same symbol/letters, JWL. The load rating of the rim I noted as 825 kg so that must be a common load rating.

"JWL" stamp on alloy wheels | Cartype (http://www.cartype.com/pages/2101/jwl_stamp_on_alloy_wheels)

VIA Registration of Aluminum Wheel (http://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html)

I suppose that if a wheel has no markings moulded into it, the good news is that one cannot conclude he has been misled. Acceptance marks are normally moulded in as a routine part of the copy process so the lack of markings could be viewed as a positive.

[Graeme]

If a rim is rated at less than half the vehicle manufacturer (LR) stated maximum load of the "heaviest" axle (usually the rear) then the rim is obviously under-rated for maximum axle load.

[sean c]

Meccles,
I have been down this path trying to get correct info on wheel load ratings from local LR dealer and Qld dept of transport and main roads. Received answers that were not based on fact but reluctance to vary from original.
If it comes down to a legal argument from an insurer trying to knock back a claim due to a modification from original then it will come down to the legislation in your state. I looked up the Qld regulations and there is reference to wheel load ratings. Reference from legislation below. There is no mention of tyre placard or varying from OEM wheels.
Wheels and tyres—size and capacity
35. The wheels and tyres fitted to an axle of a vehicle must be of
sufficient size and capacity to carry the part of the vehicle’s gross mass transmitted to the ground through the axle.
I am not a lawyer though, so seek advise if in doubt.
cheers,
Sean
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/SLS/1999/99SL213.pdf

[Meccles]

Guys many thanks for all the feedback. The LR customer assistance guy "promised" to call back, however, he did comment that I sounded "angry".
Wonder why?

[Meccles]

Wow must be my lucky day! Just had LRA on the phone. Very polite and helpful.
Two comments, one they only rate the axles, which for my TDV8 are:
Front Axle Max load 1540kgs.
Rear Axle Max load 1710kgs.
Divide by half = front 770kgs per rim
Rear =855kgs per rim.
So my rear rims are under rated.

Also, it is LRA policy that their dealers are not supposed to fit aftermarket wheels, they are supposed to fit only genuine rims. They indicated that they will be contacting the dealer on this one.
I am now waiting to here back from the dealer, but will be insisting on genuine, LR Stormer rims.

[bbyer]

Wow must be my lucky day! Just had LRA on the phone. Very polite and helpful. Also, it is LRA policy that their dealers are not supposed to fit aftermarket wheels, they are supposed to fit only genuine rims. They indicated that they will be contacting the dealer on this one. This just might turn out OK for you.

I think wheels, (and other stuff), are such a grey area that no one really understands the details so LR, (the Factory), routinely insists the dealers only use their supplied and marked up products.

This dictate usually does not go over too well in the Used Car department as the Factory can't lose; this also tends to explain why used cars on the dealers lot generally cost more than on a sand lot. The current wheels will look good on a Toyota and your new Stormers will look just like the ones taken off except they will meet spec even according to an insurance company - that assumes Genuine Stormer are available in Oz.

In the case of a Land Rover, I think this rating stuff matters as often these vehicles are used in extreme service rather than just as grocery getters. It seems more often than not, Land Rovers are pictured balancing on two wheels and then dropping down on to one corner, and not always gently.

[Meccles]

Contacted today by the dealer. They have done their own investigation and come to the same conclusion. Upshot is that new genuine Land Rover Stormer rims are now on order and will be fitted once they arrive from the UK.
For everyones info, the dealer, Bruce Lynton Land Rover, based in Southport, have been good to deal with. Once we identified the problem they were helpful and prompt in trying to rectify it. They have learn't, as have I, the details of wheel/rim replacement. I really can't complain about their response or attitude in my dealings with them. This will be an expensive exercise for them and has been a bit of a pain in the butt for me, but the end result should be right rims on the right car, supplied by the right people, without too much drama. They did not hesitate to do the right thing.
I will be using them again.

[33chinacars]

Good to hear you have it all sorted. Sounds like great service too. Well done

[bbyer]

It sounds like LR believes wheel rating matters. It may of course be a cunning marketing move - spend a little to make even more, but in this case, I think not.

Whenever one alters a design, particularly for off road vehicles, the failure path changes. When it is the drive train, and I would regard tyres and wheels as part of the drive train, sometimes the results of a shifted weak spot can be more undesirable than perhaps otherwise would have been the case.

Everyone involved is to be complemented as to the outcome. In this case, all parties involved were winners; knowledge learned and acted upon with no prior unfortunate events.

[Meccles]

Update, was on Gold Coast today. David Berzins at Bruce Lynton LR very helpful as he has been over last 6 months of this saga. My RRS is now fitted with 4 x genuine LR Stormer 20" alloys, complete with genuine center caps.
Very helpful, friendly. Really couldn't ask for more. Once car is clean I will take a photo as "proof" and post.:D

[101RRS]

Update, was on Gold Coast today. David Berzins at Bruce Lynton LR very helpful as he has been over last 6 months of this saga. My RRS is now fitted with 4 x genuine LR Stormer 20" alloys, complete with genuine center caps.
Very helpful, friendly. Really couldn't ask for more. Once car is clean I will take a photo as "proof" and post.:D

Noting of course they were prepared to have you drive of wheels that were a safety hazard. But it does show that sticking your ground and persevering can result in a good outcome - glad it all came together.

Garry

[Meccles]

In fairness to the dealer they never saw inside the rims. They purchased "correct" rims from aftermarket wheel/tyre supplier who was supposed to have provided fit for purpose rims. And they were fitted at the tyre place, not the dealers. The fault really lies with this wheel/tyre supplier for fitting them in first place, a reputable wheel/tyre outfit should have spotted the error right from the start.

[rmp]

Never, ever, trust what a tyre dealer says about tyres and rims.

With very few exceptions most of them just throw on anything roundish and blackish that can be made to fit then call it good.

[Meccles]

Attached is the final result.