Early type swivel - convert to Railko?

[Warb]

My Series 2 has the early type swivels with the steering arm on the top. It seems I have the choice of overhauling them to the same spec., or converting them to the later type with a conversion kit.

What are the pro's and con's of each approach? If "converted", does the steering arm move to the bottom of the hub, because (please correct me if I'm wrong) it would seem that having the steering gear higher would keep it out of the way of damage.

[Timj]

Hi Warb,

If you are talking about converting to a Railko bush rather than the brass cone then that can be done without moving the steering to the bottom. I recently did this on my Series 1. You need to drill out a pin and press out the splined rod from the steering arm and press back in the one to suit the Railko. You also need to press the brass cone out of the swivel ball and put in the Railko bush housing. Not too hard if you have a press, harder without but you might be able to do it in a vice for some and use a hammer to drive out the rest. All the other parts are the same so you might need to replace the lower bearing and the swivel seals as well.

Cheers,

TimJ.

[Warb]

That would sound like what I need to do, and far more helpful than the parts suppliers "you need to convert to the later system" with no more details or instructions!

Thanks!

[fc110]

That would sound like what I need to do, and far more helpful than the parts suppliers "you need to convert to the later system" with no more details or instructions!

Thanks!
this should make it easier!

[Warb]

this should make it easier!

It certainly does!!! Thanks!

[Warb]

Reading the instructions posted above, I can't see any reference to lubricating the new Railko bush. Should the new bush be lubricated on assembly? And if so, is the recommendation to use grease, or the normal oil (or "One Shot" liquid grease) that is used in the swivel housing? I would have thought that lubrication would make a difference to the rotation of the bearing, which is important given the need to shim to a particular resistance........

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Warb

You shouldn't be using one shot grease in the swivel unless you have a scored chrome ball that won't hold oil any more, and even then it should only be a temporary fix until you replace the chrome ball and seal.

If you're doing the Railko conversion then you may as well finish the job completely.

The reason that you don't use grease or semi-fluid grease is that it doesn't splash around and lubricate as well as oil. Both the uni-joint and particularly the railko are lubricated by the splashing oil running into the joint/bush and the thicker the lubricant the less it gets in.

Regular grease is sufficient for the initial assembly.

N.B. If you have F/W hubs, you also need to engage them frequently to get the lubricant splashing around to lubricate the Railko.

Diana

[Warb]

I haven't decided what to use in the swivels, I've seen a great deal of contradictory advice..... I also have a couple of bags of the BritPart "One Shot" equivalent (freebies!), and to be honest it is only marginally more viscous than a normal "heavy" oil - at room temperature it clings but self levels. I'd guess it is much the same viscosity as the OO(O?) grade semi-fluid that I use in one of my slasher gearboxes, and that splash lubricates without a problem. In a supposedly (what happened to summer?) hot climate I'm not sure it's thick enough to cause a problem...

However, this vehicle is getting all new swivels, bearings, seals etc., so if any LR can keep it's fluids in, it should be this one! I have both One-Shot and EP90 to hand, and sooner or later I'll have to choose!

But on your advice I'll assemble and shim with grease in the Railko.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Warb

Penrite used to advertise their brand of one shot "Semi-Fluid Grease" as the recommended lubricant for Series Land Rover swivels however they discontinued that recommendation in about 2007 in favour of their brand of 90EP gear oil "Mild EP".

I have no knowledge of the reason behind the change suffice to say, if an oil company changes a recommended lubricant, you can be sure there is a reason.

Diana

[isuzurover]

The railko bush gets its lubricant via a very small hole. Semifluid grease will not lubricate it as well as 80W90 gear oil.

It is also very difficult to remove the SFG properly if it becomes water contaminated.

[Warb]

I have no knowledge of the reason behind the change suffice to say, if an oil company changes a recommended lubricant, you can be sure there is a reason.

True, but of course oil companies do not test their recommendations, especially on older vehicles, they simply use the product from their range that matches the manufacturers original specification. In this case I would guess that they recommended the product that matched LR's specification without realising that the LR recommendation for the later models (which I am told is the "One-Shot" product) is not the same as was originally specified for the Series Land Rovers. The change was probably made when they discovered that the earlier vehicles had a different original specification. An oil company can't easily be taken to court for recommending what the vehicle maker specified! Equally it is unlikely that LR themselves would ever revisit the specifications for the Series vehicles, it is simply not economically viable to do so.

Having said that, it is also true to say that the original specification product is usually at the very least "OK" for the job, even if later developments improve upon it. The trick is knowing whether the later development is an improvement, a cost saving, or an attempt to hide a flaw....such as leaks!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Except that Penrite (http://www.datateck.com.au/Lube/PenritePre1970/?x=0) make a 90EP oil specifically for older vehicles with yellow metals and why they recommend that "Mild EP" because the bronze cone in the swivel pin and bush in the back of stub axles of some series Land Rovers.

But you are correct, your choice to use anything you want.

[Warb]

The railko bush gets its lubricant via a very small hole. Semifluid grease will not lubricate it as well as 80W90 gear oil.

I'll have to look at the housing in the morning. I had assumed that the lubricant flowed in from the top of the Railko bush (after being splashed up on the to case) and that the hole in the bottom was a drain. To be honest I'm very surprised that oil of any viscosity could manage to get through that small hole, past the thrust washer and up in to the bush purely through splashing!

I must also say that I have just disassembled a pair of swivels that were lubricated with "real" grease, not the semi-fluid variety, and both Railko bushes were perfectly lubricated as were the universal joints. Whilst I have no knowledge of what mileage or use the vehicle had done in this condition, there were no apparent ill effects even after it had stood idle for several years. Of course removing and disposing of possibly half a litre of grease from each joint was messy, and there is clearly no way of changing the grease without a complete strip down of the swivel!

[Warb]

Except that Penrite make a 90EP oil specifically for older vehicles with yellow metals and why they recommend that "Mild EP" because the bronze cone in the swivel pin and bush in the back of stub axles of some series Land Rovers.

I had the same problems with recommendations for old tractor transaxles that used the old-style plain bearings, and discussed it at length with the reps of a couple of the oil companies. It was interesting that every oil company recommended their least advanced product, but when one of them stopped making that "old style" product their recommendation changed to the next one up the line!

This particular LR does have the bushed stub axles, though the cone type swivel is being upgraded to Railko (the original subject of this thread!).

[p4t]

This is an old thread but although its already been pointed out that the small hole under the top bush is a drain hole not a feed hole .. I wanted to point out why landrover changed steering arms from top to bottom because it may convince anyone reading this thread to go for lower arms.
When the old cone system was discontinued it was noted that with top mounted steering arms the new bush design wouldn't take the direct fore & aft loads from the steering without increased wear so the arms were relocated to the bottom as the lower taper roller bearing coped better & gave easier steering.
So the bottom steering arm upgrade should be seriously considered & is an easy job if done at same time.
lower bolts (4 off) must be replaced with 3 correct later type studs & one "special" stud (it has a larger diameter & is an interference type fit), this stops chance of movement now it has all that leverage on it during steering.
Change steering rods to later ones also as length may be different (due to king pin inclination).
Another benefit is the track rod ends will now be non pendulum so slightly more fail safe.

[p4t]

..oh I forget to say new lower studs have 2 of the special size ones each side not one like the older type.
also they are bigger 7/16" BSF thread so tapping out old holes if yours are 3/8" is required it's because lower arms are now going to be taking alot more stress.

Old TOP mounting is now going to get alot less stress so just cutting back the original old top arms is fine.
part numbers...
Special stud 531043
Normal stud 531494

bottom type levers for RHD car
530988 & 530989