Articulation competitions -adjustment for track?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Most of us would have been witness to or competed in articulation competitions and also been in awe of some super modified vehicle that topped them all.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/604.jpg

However

Is it a level playing field even if the ramp isn't?

http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/4651-1/IMG_2722.JPG

The wider a vehicle's track and the wider it's wheels the higher it will climb up the ramp with the same angles of articulation.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/605.jpg

Should our competitions reflect that?

Diana

[nicho]

Id say to be fair it should be like for like or it's not a fair competition

[Xtreme]

Who said competitions had to be fair? :o

[Tombie]

Lets face it.. Articulation ramps are **** :p

[dobbo]

Lets face it.. Articulation ramps are **** :p

so is pulling your pud but it has never stopped you or I before today

[goingbush]

LOL the Ambulance in the first pic has a Defender parked on its roof :-)

img below stolen from LROCV website. looks like it came from Bills shed !!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/599.jpg

[Lotz-A-Landies]

LOL the Ambulance in the first pic has a Defender parked on its roof :-)

img below stolen from LROCV website. looks like it came from Bills shed !!
... And notice the wheel arch extensions indicating wider wheels and probably wider track on a highly modified vehicle.

So the issue still stands.

(BTW, just shows how versatile Shonky's bloodbox is and the extra weight (even if it is only the size of a toy Defender) is probably the only reason that he didn't exceed the P38a! :D )

[Sprint]

it boils down to how far you want to take the modifications...... you increase ride height, suspension travel, etc, if you're serious enough, why not increase the track too?

go hard or go home

[p38arover]

LOL the Ambulance in the first pic has a Defender parked on its roof :-)


This is how Shonky got it there:

Land Rover Defender Hill Climb - YouTube

[lambrover]

The ramp is only one tool for measuring capability. When you get in the bush you will see who has the best set up or what works best. Just my opinion though

[Tombie]

so is pulling your pud but it has never stopped you or I before today

But I eased up once I started to need glasses :cool:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

LOL the Ambulance in the first pic has a Defender parked on its roof :-)

img below stolen from LROCV website. looks like it came from Bills shed !!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/599.jpgCan someone tell me what suspension device this vehicle has supporting the front axle?

Looks like a rod or possibly an extended shock absorber.

:confused: Diana

[isuzutoo-eh]

Three link suspension? Bill/Wagoo has posted about it before somewhere.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/135264-maxidrive-frame-ball-joint-question.html#post1541991

[uninformed]

Diana, how much extra travel do you think the wider track will gain....if the front axle is at 45 degrees (how many would be???) 1 inch extra width will only gain 1 inch extra hight up the ramp....not really going to gain much.. what is important with Ramp tests is the angle of the front axle and the relation of the body/vehicle to this. Bill's rig is a very good example of this. What would be idea is having the axle at say 45 degrees and the body at 22.5 ;)

[999]

Some other shots I took of it. Don't ask me about its magic though.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/1110.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/1111.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/1112.jpg

Don't ask me about the magic inside.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Diana, how much extra travel do you think the wider track will gain....if the front axle is at 45 degrees (how many would be???) 1 inch extra width will only gain 1 inch extra hight up the ramp....not really going to gain much.. what is important with Ramp tests is the angle of the front axle and the relation of the body/vehicle to this. Bill's rig is a very good example of this. What would be idea is having the axle at say 45 degrees and the body at 22.5 ;)
Ah yes but Defenders and 110 are 5" wider hub to hub than a SII/SIII Land Rover and getting up towards 7" over an S1. The minimum rim on a Defender is 5 1/2" going up to 7" OEM while a 1948 series only has 4 1/2" rims

[uninformed]

Ah yes but Defenders and 110 are 5" wider hub to hub than a SII/SIII Land Rover and getting up towards 7" over an S1. The minimum rim on a Defender is 5 1/2" going up to 7" OEM while a 1948 series only has 4 1/2" rims

and most stock series have less articulation regardless of the track width....I have heard that 80 inch SI had ok flex due to narrow springs.....The RRC from the early 70s would be LR's best

I dont think FC's rate, Lightweights probably same as series IIA/3, 101's are the only LR with Parabolics but probably still not as good as an 80, The 110 lightweight never saw the light of day, nor the 127 "LARGE" trucks...The Larma while coil sprung, would be no better than a 90/110/130....but according to your methods, the LR forest rover with 52 inch tall tyres and wide front axle (note front was much wider than rear to allow for steering) would be the ramp queen...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I was quite underwhelmed with the lack of articulation I have seen in 101s, most standard series LR would articulate as well, the only saving grace for the 101 is the track width.

As for modified series leaf springs, with a few minor adjustments and lubrication you can get them to articulate quite well, at least as well as after-market parabolic replacements. The advantage with coils is that they can dislocate something that eye to eye leaf springs, like on the series Land Rover, can't do.

Diana

[isuzurover]

Can someone tell me what suspension device this vehicle has supporting the front axle?

Looks like a rod or possibly an extended shock absorber.

:confused: Diana

IRC Bill has a 3-link front with small diameter (car-type?) coils. The upper coil mound appears to be able to drop down as the suspension articulates.

Bill has probably explained his setup in much more detail in the link above.

[goingbush]

Hey 999
Hope you dont mind, I stole your photos & squeezed them thru photoshop.

Im going to have to go & have a lie down under Bills car because Im buggered if I can see all the magic bits.

Looks like an ingenious use of Motorbike monoshocks (could be mistaken) to locate the back of the leaf springs, Are they Transit Van front springs , Or Holden Combo Rear springs ??? Also clever locating bumpstops ontop of springs !!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/558.jpg



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/559.jpg


Wow, there it a thing of folklore, Portalled Axles, (drop box under swivel housing) Front Radius Arm mount is empty, are they Wristed RA's ??
What locates the front end from torque reaction, What I thought was an upper link in the orig image appears just to hold the top of the spring in place

http://www.goingbush.com/landy/bl3.jpg

I suppose a True Magician does not give away his secrets.

oh, one other thing, why are the front tyres on backwards ??

cheers Don

[wagoo]

Don, everything was explained several years ago in the minutest detail on the Rover forum on Outerlimits and the 'Members Vehicle' forum on lr4x4.com ,but you need to be a member there for some BS reason to access the members section, so it can't be linked to.
Rather than repeat it all here,probably best you call in sometime and lay under the truck for a while and it will all become clear.There's no magic or rocket science involved. just straight forward, simple, basic and cheap (because i'm a pauper) engineering.
The front tyres are on back to front because this is a tool as well as a toy, and in winter I regularly winch a lot of trees out of the ground and then drag them in reverse gear to a central fire site for burning.
The rear springs are transit fronts. the rear drop shackles are made from old scrap army Landy 2 stage jacks. the forward end of the spring attaches to pivoting drop down hangers, just visible in your blown up photo.Torque reaction and for/aft axle location is controlled by a 'Tripod' (one link) pivoting from the t/case crossmember.Lateral location is by the leaf springs,ie even during articulation there is always at least one forward spring hanger in the laterally rigid position, thereby precluding the need for a rear panhard rod,the geometry of which, would be real crap at those angles anyway.
The front suspension linkage is what's called a 3 link plus panhard rod arrangement. there is a top link above the diff to control torque reaction.
Incidently, that ramp is sitting on loose top soil and was surmounted in rear wheel drive with difflock disengaged.Had the ramp been longer it would have gone further.So anyone who criticises suspension flex as a **** because they see dangling ,drooping wheels as having little or no traction are not necessarily correct.That may be the case with many examples, but not with this one.Offroad stability is another consideration.Imagine how unstable that vehicle would be by locking the suspension so it couldn't flex and then driving the front wheel to the top of that ramp.As it was it would take the strength of 4 men lifting on that front wheel to topple the truck over.
There was so much happening at the trials on Sunday that I forgot which vehicle it was that several helpers had to prevent it from falling on its side due to instability caused by insufficient articulation.I would have liked to study that in a bit more detail because the same cross axle obstacle merely caused most other vehicles participating in the event to lift wheels and/or lose traction.

As to Dianas point about the points score formula for ramp competitions taking into account wheelbase and track widths. We don't do RTI scores because it is meaningless in the real world. Cross country terrain doesn't give a stuff or make adjustments for how long or wide your wheebase is. Your vehicle either has the ability and stability to overcome the obstacles or it is winch and tether time.

According to my protractor, an increase in trackwidth of 10'' gives an increase of approx 7'' vertical height of the upper wheel if the axle was tilted to 45 degrees.Or only 3'' with the axle tilted at 22 degrees, which happens to be the angular limit of the standard rear A frame ball joint.
Bill.

[modman]

Still reckon the duals looked tougher bill. ;)

How are Nigel and tim's (son, not hood) trucks going??
Any changes since initial builds?


I find the rti calculation invaluable!!!!!
You never know when you may have to wheel through the valley of forklifts and ramps!


Remember zombies are coming and they know there trig!!!!!!!!!!

David:p

[999]

There's no magic or rocket science involved.

Don't be so modest.
the rear drop shackles are made from old scrap army Landy 2 stage jacks. Now that is magic.:BigThumb:

[isuzurover]

Cross country terrain doesn't give a stuff or make adjustments for how long or wide your wheebase is.

Well said. I think this answers the original question.

Bill - are you able to cut and paste your posts from the other fora on here?

[wagoo]

Bill - are you able to cut and paste your posts from the other fora on here?

I can't Ben.But my 6 month old grand daughter probably can.
I'll ask my daughter when she's home.She told me how once, but it went in one ear and straight out the other and didn't slow down as it passed through the mush in between.
Bill.

David. I haven't seen Nigel or Tim for over a year. Tim has become more interested in long distance touring in his GU Nissan, so there is a very capable fully engineered portalled 110 ute lying idle most of the time.

[wagoo]

I was quite underwhelmed with the lack of articulation I have seen in 101s, most standard series LR would articulate as well, the only saving grace for the 101 is the track width.
Diana

I made a pair of difflocks for a mates 101 years ago, and when testing in wet, slippery and twisty terrain it was found even with both locks engaged and on new Silverstone MT117s to be less capable than the Landy pictured above with both locks disconnected.
The only way we could get that 101 to perform to a satisfactory degree was to disconnect the antiroll bar.
Bill.

[uninformed]

Bill, how do you think the 101 would have faired with say 500-700kg payload?

[isuzurover]

I can't Ben.But my 6 month old grand daughter probably can.
I'll ask my daughter when she's home.She told me how once, but it went in one ear and straight out the other and didn't slow down as it passed through the mush in between.
Bill.

Bill, when you have the other forum post open:

1. Hold down "Ctrl" key, then press "A" (selects all text)
2. Hold down "Ctrl" key, then press "C" (copies everything you have selected)
3. Hit the "reply" button on here
4. Click inside the text box and Hold down "Ctrl" key, then press "V" (pastes all you have copied)

[wagoo]

Bill, how do you think the 101 would have faired with say 500-700kg payload?

That no doubt would have improved articulation Serg, but widely spaced overslung parabolic springs, intended to give stability with a 1 ton payload on a high platform are probably never going to flex al that well in a cross axle scenario.
Bill.

[goingbush]

Who needs a ramp ....What about this ??

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/259.jpg