Sydney Biodiesel Retailers -B20

[edisco]

Does anyone know of retailers in Sydney that sell biodiesel (B20) and up? The only one that I currently know of is the United Manly station which sells B20. Sorry if this has question has been asked before.

-eidsco

[Tombie]

If your vehicle is Td5 or newer avoid Bio.


"Where the Desert meets the Sea"
'Did I mention some great 4WDriving is just 5 minutes from home?'

[edisco]

TD5 Disc 2 runs great on B20. I would much rather support locally sourced Australian biodiesel than giving money away to foreign governments.

[Tombie]

Runs softer with less rattle and less torque and power.

Burns more, does less...

B20 is not good for unitary injectors either...

Your not saving anything... It will cost you in the end!


"Where the Desert meets the Sea"
'Did I mention some great 4WDriving is just 5 minutes from home?'

[seano87]

Runs softer with less rattle and less torque and power.

Burns more, does less...

B20 is not good for unitary injectors either...

Your not saving anything... It will cost you in the end!


"Where the Desert meets the Sea"
'Did I mention some great 4WDriving is just 5 minutes from home?'

Mmm and if it screws those injectors, at ~$5k for the set, that's a whole lot of ouch.

And seeing as bio can contain palm oil, I'd rather have dino diesel every day of the week than support that industry.

[uttanutta]

Guys, bio is a phenomenal product however the quality of the bulk of BIO we have in Australia is the poorest you can buy. The cetane levels are low meaning you have less punch therefore you burn more fuel to do the same job effectively eliminating the benefits of both the lower price (if that is the case, usually not!) and conscious environmental decision that you made.
Our product is imported by a number of independent suppliers and at times they have been found to have circumvented the minimum standard requirements for the product and are selling a product that does not in any way meet minimum standards that our vehicles require. The mix of bio to diesel is important as the more cheap bio in the mix means the better the cogs (cost of goods sold) for the seller. It may only be a cent or two at the pump but when you sell a Billion litres Australia wide ............ So a 5% mix could very well be a 10% mix (who can tell) or even a 20% mix depending on how much cream a seller needs to make. The guys who were caught playing with the ethanol blends when it first came on the market are still out there in business, bigger and badder than ever. As a buyer there is little you can do to check or even ensure that the percentage mix is as per advertised. (love the signs that say... This product may contain bio product .. no determination of yes or no and no determination of percentage mix if it does exist at all)
The product produced form palm and coconut oils etc have high particulant levels (not good for filters and injectors) along with the tallow (read cow fat) product that performs extremely poorly in colder climates. Remember, the fat on a steak congeals on your plate in an air conditioned room. Your landy in the high plains in Victoria is way more prone to being stopped dead because a percentage of your fuel wont flow because of the wintry climate you are in and it does separate and clog!
BIO is also an extremely efficient solvent (used by most local government offices in the USA as a graffiti cleaner), first one or two filters block extremely quickly from the gunk from the fuel tank and fuel lines being lifted and if it makes it past your filters the injectors suffer badly, leading to major costs. (this occurs quickly if you use a 100% bio fuel but happens more slowly and insidiously with a lesser blend). BIO also has the capacity to hold water in situ (in small amounts but it does exist), as opposed to dino fuel which will allow a water mix to eventually separate out.
The products made from SOY, Rapeseed (Canola) and Cottonseed are by far better products and their cetane levels are equivalent if not a little better than diesel however there is limited availability, it is very expensive (more expensive than non-bio product) and you still have the characteristic solvent/ moisture problems to deal with.
BIO is already in some Major's product produced in Sydney at a rate of 2% and this is being lifted to 5% (this may have occurred already). The government is pushing strongly for all fuel companies to meet a minimum delivery quotient of bio products per total volume sold (Bio-diesel and ethanol) but this is impossible at present as the ethanol and bio-diesel just does not exist in Australia in the quantities required to meet these levels. Even though this is the case, the Government on one hand is handing out waivers to the fuel companies for failing to meet the levels required and on the other hand has lifted the current 2% minimum levels to an even higher level effective January of 6% to look good in the eyes of the "greener" population.
Bio-Diesel does have a positive carbon footprint (good) as opposed to ethanol which has a negative carbon footprint. Meaning ethanol uses more carbon to produce than it saves us through its use.

Okay the final breakdown, it is a good product but you need to make sure that, as in all things, you have a good quality product to begin with or you are in trouble. There will be teething issues being filters and injectors from the solvent qualities of the product. Finally and probably most importantly, we unfortunately had better get and work out some way to deal with it as your elected officials with little or no idea of what they are doing are forcing these products into the market place whether you like it or not.

[superquag]

Amen to the above.... from someone who used to make B100 from 'selected WVO suppliers'.

You sound like you've done the same.... :D

I'm not advising it... but if you know anyone still brewing it (properly) then ...

Actually, my bio was quieter, smoother, and pulled strongly at lower RPM, allowing noticeably earlier gearchanges. The Mazda would inexorable turn till stalled, rather than the violent death-rattle on Dino Diesel

Top speed was reduced, the smaller the engine the more lost, though my 2 litre Mazda van only came down to 130 km/h from 140.... We should'nt be anywhere near either velocities in such a tiny engine/van-body

Was used by other folk in Tojos and Patrols, who kept on coming back till I stopped brewing.

James in Gosnells

[Blknight.aus]

the reason you avoid bio in td5 and common rail is simply the pressure and temp at the injector nozzle...

its above what bio can handle as a lubricant. its marginal in the TD5 if you had perfect bio then you'll be ok, just but if the mix is off or it pics up water in the tank youve had it, eventually. all it takes is one injector to get spotty and the fail open and you get all kinds of wonderfullness that results in much wallet raping.

Common rail has the same problem but the rail pressure starts ABOVE that of the td5 and goes up from there and as rail pressure is for all intents and purposes constant if an injector stays open :)..... theres also the issue of the hygroscopic nature of bio, it pics up just enough moisture and carries it around in the fuel system and as every early puma owner knows that engine just loves having watery fuel.

but if youve got a VE, cav or inline injector pump go and run whatever the hell you want the max pressure is typically less that 15000psi at the injector nozzle. me, I run a 2.25 Diesel on nothing more than dewatered filterd used cottonseed oil with just enough diesel to let it start on a cold morning and to help it flow. typically about 20% by volume. with dieso at $1.50/l with what it saves me in time chemicals and electrons Im just in front of making proper bio.

[isuzurover]

the reason you avoid bio in td5 and common rail is simply the pressure and temp at the injector nozzle...

its above what bio can handle as a lubricant. ...

Bulldust. Bio has better lubricity than standard diesel.

The biggest problem with Bio in TD5 and commonrail engines is the high rate of recirc of hot fuel - which causes polymerisation, oxidative breakdown and filtration/water carryover issues through the filters.

Btw - any/all diesel sold in AU can have up to 5% bio without labelling. In most of western europe 10%. The BD is added to improve the lubricity of UULSD (conventional diesel)

Filtration is the most serious issue. Despite what you read, no filter company will guarantee their filters will work for B10+

[Blknight.aus]

Bulldust. Bio has better lubricity than standard diesel.

untill you put it under pressure.


The biggest problem with Bio in TD5 and commonrail engines is the high rate of recirc of hot fuel - which causes polymerisation, oxidative breakdown and filtration/water carryover issues through the filters.

Right problem wrong, no better not the complete reason and the filtration problems not an issue, a filter change is easy as is modding the fuel system to have extra filters, Fozzys got 6 filters on board now (but I am running pretty much unprocessed WVO)


Btw - any/all diesel sold in AU can have up to 5% bio without labelling. In most of western europe 10%. The BD is added to improve the lubricity of UULSD (conventional diesel)


actually depending on which version of the standards you want to read and work from its 10% unadvertised and depending on your interpretation of the same documents fuel advertised as 10% bio can be up to 20%bio AND theres no requirement to specify what the feedstocks were, the production process was OR what the % of water or particulate count of the bio was prior to being blended with the diesel providing that the fuel at the bowser complies with the overall tolerance for normal diesel.

99% of common rail diesel engines are listed as NOT compatible with BioDiesel. the latest round of euro5 complient diesels have a bio tolerance of 0%.


whats the cracking pressure and temp of your bio?

[isuzurover]

untill you put it under pressure.

Right problem wrong, no better not the complete reason and the filtration problems not an issue, a filter change is easy as is modding the fuel system to have extra filters, Fozzys got 6 filters on board now (but I am running pretty much unprocessed WVO)


actually depending on which version of the standards you want to read and work from its 10% unadvertised and depending on your interpretation of the same documents fuel advertised as 10% bio can be up to 20%bio AND theres no requirement to specify what the feedstocks were, the production process was OR what the % of water or particulate count of the bio was prior to being blended with the diesel providing that the fuel at the bowser complies with the overall tolerance for normal diesel.

99% of common rail diesel engines are listed as NOT compatible with BioDiesel. the latest round of euro5 complient diesels have a bio tolerance of 0%.


whats the cracking pressure and temp of your bio?

Sorry Dave you have been misinformed. I have never seen any information which suggests that BD lubricity deteriorates more than Petro-Diesel lubricity at commonrail injection pressures. On the contrary:

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/39130.pdf
This study found no wear issues on commonrail injectors from Bio. Note that the main concern/issue is oxidative breakdown.

EN590:2009 Is the Euro standard for diesel fuel. It stipulates a maximum of 7% FAME (7% Bio). Many countries use up to 10% FAME. This applies to Euro 5 diesels as well.

On the filtration issue - sounds like you know more than the world's leading filtration companies then Dave. I bow to your knowledge. Donaldson, MANN and FG have all said that ensuring fuel quality (particle removal and water removal) for high flow, high temp, high recirc rate fuel systems used in commonrail engines is a major problem, which will become worse when mandatory BD content is increased. They admit they do not yet have the answers.


NOTE: I am not proposing that the OP runs Bio - as mentioned, the quality of Bio sold in AU is likely poor or at best highly variable. It may not do damage, but then again it might. It would be likely to do least to fill up with B20 at the start of a long trip, that way the Bio will be used quickly, before it has a chance to break down. However that does not solve the other issues with Bio.

[Blknight.aus]

a very good read,



ok onto your document



None of the candidate test fuel blends tested showed any adverse effects on the wear ratings
of the common rail fuel pumps using a novel 500 hour test procedure. The test results
indicate that the lubricity of the test fuels is adequate for the protection of common rail
pumps running under similar conditions. It should be noted that commercial decisions
concerning lubricity should be based on more than one test.


funny it doesnt mention ANY where in the entire document any measurement of common rail injectors, just the pumps nor does it cover unitary injectors

have a crack at the wear factors on the injectors and the pumps in appendix 11 12 and 15 and remember that thats only a short term test thats been conducted. as per para 4.4 500 hours of service. pay particualr attention to the deviation from norm patterns on the injector pins... and thats after ONLY 500 hours (unknown for the heavily contaminated fuel, it didnt make the whole test) And thats only for standard low pressure injection.

and..


The results produced from injector wear tests indicate that the lubricity of the test fuels are
adequate for the protection of diesel injector components running under similar conditions.
The injector component wear test on the highly oxidised B20 blend failed to reach
completion due to fuel filter blockage. It should be noted that the test method used for this
study was a novel 500 hour test procedure. Commercial decisions around lubricity quality
should not be based on a single test.


hmm filter blockage, sounds like a filter doing its job, time to change the filter, you know, maintenance wise because the filter has done its job in stopping bad stuff from hitting the injector pump and injectors.

the problem with the filtration is easily solved if you dont mind a fairly large multi packet solution... with current technology a one package setup that provides a realistic long term low maintenance solution is not currently achievable.

My filtration system utilises filters intended to run a 250+hp heavy transport diesel and Im only pushing a piddly 50ish HP engine yet I still change filters at the same interval as the big diesels... try finding room for that stuff in something like a D2/3/4, new toyota, jeep, mitsu.. take your pick.

A good re-read of a document Ive read before.

and EN 590 permits a MAXimum of up to 7% bio content in diesel it does not stipulate that it MUST contain 7% biodiesel...

Mercedes, Ford and Volvo still stipulate that their common rail diesel engines are not designed to run with any bio content.

[alexturner]

Top speed was reduced, the smaller the engine the more lost, though my 2 litre Mazda van only came down to 130 km/h from 140....

I find that I'm getting a bit more 'kick' from SVO than Diesel but theres a bit of loss with bio.

I understand that different veggy-oils can yield varying energy content though I've run some preliminary tests (nothing scientific) on my 200tdi comparing performance between BIO and SVO (where the source of oil has been a constant) and found that I am getting higher performance from SVO than BIO.

I'm thinking that on a molecular level vegetable oil has a carbon chain similar (if not identical) to that of petroleum diesel however the glycerol that bonds 3 carbon chains together in vegetable oil is also built up of carbon/hydrogen - it could be possible that the carbon content present in the glycerol could be aiding the the combustion within the engine - resulting in a greater power output.

That glycerin is removed from the oil (as that is what makes oil so viscous) and replaced with methanol in BioDiesel.

Enough of me rambling on - I'm not quite sure why running bio in newer diesels is cause for concern. Bio and Diesel have similar (identical) hydrocarbon chains, the only difference is really viscosity and the addition of methanol which makes bio a solvent.

Bloody new engines...

[seriesLR]

You could try National Bio-diesel Group (NBG), their head office is in Ryde.
They are the importer/wholesaler, the product is made from Soy and imported from South Africa.
Nice guys as well.:)