The value of roll over protection.

[PAT303]

We've been busy the last month with MVA's,I've attended five in 6 weeks and all have been quite nasty to the people involved and today we were called to a troopy that had side impacted a road train and rolled.The vehicle was fitted with both a mid mounted roll bar and rear cargo barrier and both withstood the crash saving the guys life.The vehicles body had wrapped itself around the roll bar witch had deformed 6'' into the cabin space but kept the roof off the driver,he was a lucky boy.I have a roll bar in the Tdi and after today I'm going to fit one either behind the front seats or around the rear seats in the puma,the crash today was driver error but even so we all make mistakes and I'm not perfect and I want my family protected.After the last few weeks I feel ROPs are every bit as important as good shocks and springs,tyres,secure load restraints and driving to the conditions. Pat

[digger]

I agree, recently we attended a rollover (lrooc= left road out of control) involving a D2, the owners had fitted a cargo barrier just behind the front seats and replaced both front seats with stratos/recaro type seats.

The vehicle rolled and collided with a tree, we attended and cut and rolled the roof off but it was obvious that the cargo barrier and seats had done their job (on impact with the gum tree a branch fell and also impacted the front and roof but was stopped by the cargo barrier!) and extracted the driver after she had been fitted with a flexi spinal board and neck brace (fitted in the seat before we extracted her). we then lifted her from the seat to a spinal board and a very short time later chopper arrived and she was medivaced to ADELAIDE.

I later was told by her hubby that she had 2 or 3 fractured vertebrae that would have paralised her mid chest down if any movement had been too much. She was in intensive care and was wearing a "halo" for a while. Last I heard the lady was transferred to MELB by rail but the outlook looks good.

I have no doubt this lady is still able to walk (and in fact both of them can breathe) purely because of the vehicle set up they had planned out and fitted correctly.

Also when feeling "uncomfortable" after the accident they both decided she should stay in the seat until we (CFS/AMBOS ETC) had arrived... smart move.

Today a cruiser rolled not far from town whilst towing a small bobcat, the vehicle went over, the trailer threw the bobcat (chains broke or pulled out of trailer fixings) and then as the vehicle came onto drivers side the trailer hit apex first and impacted the driver. He also was medivaced out and hopes are that he is OK (he was concious and had a badly injured arm but only concerns he had were for his family..they were OK, incl a 3 year old who was secured correctly in a capsule/seat and completely uninjured. And we almost missed the local Christmas pageant at 6pm! ( we supply marshalls and the pagent "end " vehicles after Santa!)

so what Im trying to say is.. remember how vulnerable we are, and if you are going to fix something like a cargo barrier or rops in, do it correctly as if you dont it will do more harm then good!. Also dont underestimate the value of seatings, good supporting seats for us, and decent safety seats for kids/babies (don't have to put the money you saved by buying a cheap seat towards a wheelchair!).

Im afraid that the turnout rate for prangs will only increase over the holidays :( drive careful folks and those attending prangs watch your back, (the amazing amount of pillocks that dont do 40 or less past the red and blues on the side of the road is spectacular.... although the bigger the prang the slower the drivepast seems to be (as they gawk or even video with their phones!!) -but thats another rant for elsewhere!!)

cheers guys.. be careful!

[mick88]

The early troop carriers were shocking for poor or no roll over protection.
I attended a a roll over way up the Arumpo Road towards Mungo several years back. The vehicle had rolled at about 90-100 kays an hour and done several rotations before coming to rest on it's side out in amongst the blue bush. Sitting out on the flat was something that looked like an alumium punt. My first thoughts were there must have been a boat on top of the troopy. It was the fibreglass roof of the troopy, all the rivets had popped as it rolled, then the sides crumbled in like a deck of cards. The cab was flattened to bonnet level.
Three backpackers all sitting in the front seat were not wearing seat belts and as a result they were ejected. They had cuts and abrasions and all were spinal packaged as a precaution, but later cleared of any major injuries at Emergency Dept. Had they been wearing seat beats and ridden the old girl out till the end of her rolls, they most definetly would have been seriously injured or worse....a very rare occasion where the carelessness of not wearing seat belts saved them.
But the point is how poorly constructed the troopies were, they should have had a decent ROP system.

Cheers, Mick

[Basil135]

Many moons ago, I attended the roll-over of a Pajero.

By counting the impact markers, it was determined that it rolled 7 times before coming to rest on its wheels.

The rear cargo area, right up to the B pillar was crushed. The driver was just sitting there in the wreck, but the front part of the cab was pretty well ok. (10 mins after we got there, it was scrap metal :D )

Whilst the front of the car held up fairly well, if it had been a 7 seater, and the last row of seats had been occupied, then the outcome would have been a lot lot worse. It would appear that the C pillar did its job, and only deformed a small way, but the D pillar was nearly flattened.

Now, I know that manufacturers cannot build a car to survive every type of crash that it may be involved in, the cost would put the out of business very quickly, but it was a concern that instead of this driver being ok, the result could have been a lot worse.

As for seatbelts, the tourists were very lucky. 5 kids in a Camira who were not wearing theirs wern't so lucky. All 5 ejected. 2 went straight into the white van with no windows, 1 more got a helicoptor ride, and ended up a quad, 1 of the others spent many many months in rehab, whilst the last one was comparitively ok in the end. The weird thing being, that the car appeard to be in fairly good shape, considering what it had been thru.

But your right, we know that seatbelts save lives, but for that 1 chance in 1,000,000 they may cost a life. I'll take my chances & wear it.

I sometimes wonder about todays cars. They tell us they are the safest they have ever been, and no doubt they are. But, are they relying too much on air bag trickery, and not enough on good old steel? I understand that there are lots & lots of forces that have to be dealt with during a sudden de-celleration, but I still wonder. Even this week, there was a story about a woman who hit a fence, and a piece of that fence went thru the floor of the car, and impailed her leg.

Whilst I will always err on the side of caution, and even more so when the kids are involved, I do sometimes wonder that if your time is up, its up.

[Hay Ewe]

sobering
I was in a rollover in my D2a (wasnt driving) and well came out ok, but it emphasied the usufullness of a cargo barrier - which we still havent fitted.....

didnt think about seats and how they might provide more protection, will consider those now. Usually there are only two of us in teh car and so a cargo barrier behind the drivers seats would be best but that means (from what I cn work out) removing the rear seats - which then removes the flexibility of the vehicle.

anyway, thanks for your service when attednding the incidents

Hay Ewe

[uninformed]

for all the mention of other brands, I would have to guess that a defender be the worst for ROP...:( I really must get around to building my new tray with roll bar incorperated

[strangy]

Thanks for the post Pat and Digger, I was about to post about seatbelts.

Had a few jobs last 2 weeks with the occupants (not wearing seat belts)being ejected from the vehicle.

I had a "reflective" return flight to Alice looking at one of those absurdly beautiful sunsets on the ranges below and then thought of the patients in the back whose partners had deceased while they were left with no injuries other than the memories of the day and a very lonely time ahead in a strange town and country, all for the sake of a seatbelt.
I cant begin to explain the heartache I witnessed at another incident with children and adults in a Troopie.

Buckle up folks. You can lose or forever change your life at any speed without a seatbelt.

cheers

[flagg]

Having been in the RFS for many years where we are the primary emergency services I've actively avoided MVAs because I know I'm not strong enough to deal with the emotion of it.

The thing that really scares me about the 110 / Defender is the cast windscreen and brittle B pillar. If they brake its sharp and violent and right next to your head.

A couple of times I've investigated ROPS and have been told its too much trouble.. but that just isn't the right answer. I don't have a Cargo Barrier now as I need the full length of the 110 for my paddles when I go kayaking.. but one of my first jobs when I get my new TIG is to make one up that I can open or something so I can have the best of both worlds.

I'm going to make up some form of proper ROPS, and get it properly approved etc eventually..

[uninformed]

Having been in the RFS for many years where we are the primary emergency services I've actively avoided MVAs because I know I'm not strong enough to deal with the emotion of it.

The thing that really scares me about the 110 / Defender is the cast windscreen and brittle B pillar. If they brake its sharp and violent and right next to your head.

A couple of times I've investigated ROPS and have been told its too much trouble.. but that just isn't the right answer. I don't have a Cargo Barrier now as I need the full length of the 110 for my paddles when I go kayaking.. but one of my first jobs when I get my new TIG is to make one up that I can open or something so I can have the best of both worlds.

I'm going to make up some form of proper ROPS, and get it properly approved etc eventually..


check out "safety devices" in the UK for ideas on different 110 ROP's

[UncleHo]

Yup! the Safety Devices units are the "bees knees" for 110/Defender Landies.

[newhue]

Pat, ley us now what puma options you come up with. The internal frames I have seen take a fair bit of space, external frames kind of look off road racerish.

[justinc]

I have seen first hand the survival of 2 people after a 130 end for ended and finished up on its wheels, engine still running, and then they woke up:o covered in glass and rocks gravel etc. This vehicle was fitted with an external cage, which doubled as a roofrack and cabguard, it was manufactured by a rally car cage maker in Hobart, and he will now be making me one for my 110. The vehicle (130 CC) was pretty well destroyed tearing off the rear axle and shocks ripped the upper A frame bolts clean out of the chassis crossmember, and bending the front axle housing etc but the only injuries sustained were from trying to crawl through the window openings and getting cut by the glass. They were VERY lucky.

On the seatbelt note, my eldest daughter is alive today after a freak accident when a Pajero hit us at the drivers B pillar as we were rounding a sharp bend in our diesel gemini (:cool: most frugal vehicle I have ever owned) and opened the vehicle up like a tin opener, all the way to the boot and tore the trailer we were towing off the back of the vehicle and threw it into a paddock. My daughter had FOR THIS TRIP ONLY been allowed to take off her seat belt and lie down on the seat with her feet against the door, as we had been driving for about 3 hours at 10pm and she had a stomach upset. She sustained 3 crushed toes but where her head would've been resting had she been sitting up with a pillow against the C pillar was gone.

Still seatbelts are worn AT ALL TIMES in our vehicles.

JC

[TDman]

A couple of times I've investigated ROPS and have been told its too much trouble.. but that just isn't the right answer. I don't have a Cargo Barrier now as I need the full length of the 110 for my paddles when I go kayaking.. but one of my first jobs when I get my new TIG is to make one up that I can open or something so I can have the best of both worlds.

I'm going to make up some form of proper ROPS, and get it properly approved etc eventually..

I'm not sure what the laws are in Aus but in NZ if you fit an internal cage you need a cert but if its out side there is no complacence as it does not impact on the passenger space.
Mite be worth having a look into it.
(NAS spec 110).
As to the look, mate, safety first.;)

TD

[flagg]

check out "safety devices" in the UK for ideas on different 110 ROP's

Yeah I wouldn't mind one of these:

Land Rover Defender 110 Station Wagon 6 Point Bolt-in Roll Cage | Safety Devices (http://www.safetydevices.com/expedition/products/roll-cage/Land+Rover+Defender+110+-1983-present/643/#!prettyPhoto)

Problem is getting it rego'd in NSW (or ACT). I spoke to a rally cage builder about it and showed him a picture of the safety devices cage, he woudn't have a bar of it saying it wasn't supported well enough :(

There was a chap in Australia who was selling the safety devices cages on Ebay a little while ago... I emailed him asking if anyone had rego'd one in NSW but never got a reply.

[d2dave]

About six or seven years ago a Landcruiser full of drunks, including the driver, hit a channel bank and rolled one km from my place. All were wearing seatbelts except for one. He was thrown out and killed.

Dave.

[PAT303]

Pat, ley us now what puma options you come up with. The internal frames I have seen take a fair bit of space, external frames kind of look off road racerish.

I'm looking at small dia steam pipe or chrome molly as it'll fit in the cab,I'm not getting to carried away with it as it only has to work once. Pat

[uninformed]

the problem with internal cages and Defenders are #1 the space/room to fit it in, and #2 the body construction and therefore the pick up/load points.....This has been a long term problem for race guys, and that is why you see VERY few truck cabs competing in Oz as they will NOT allow external cages. So for an internal to be done, major engineering and rebuilding/redesign of the floor sections etc have to be done. I understand why an internal is preferred over external (as a large solid object could crush the roof in, inbetween the external bars) but consider this....is an external ROPS in the likes of the SD type etc going to be better than the stock vehicle itself? Also it seems that in the UK and Europe that the external type have been fine for comps and im sure they give their trucks some grief.... I find it funny how cage builders etc will make comments on the SD stuff but yet they have had nothing to do with LR and their particular type of body construction...ie cast alloy, sheet alloy and sheet steel....all only bolted together....look at a nissan or Toy 4x4 ute, even though they are seperate chassis, the body is still like a monocoque as in a solid 1 peice frame all welded, which provides so much more structure to fit a cage to....so the idea is (for those types) that in theroy, the body could seperate from the chassis with the internal cage fitted to it and the whole thing is one saftey cell......that is never going to happen with a LR and these short sited people need to address that problem. IMO SD do a good job with what they have got, and fixing the cage to structual points on the chassis is a dame sit better than holding your hand on top of your head in a roll over/accident

[uninformed]

for those looking for some ideas, look at SD, but in the "RACE" or "MOTORSPORT" section, not the expidetion section. These seem to be a bit better designed for actual roll over...yes they are a weld in design as apposed to bolt in, but that is the point...every place you have a bolted joint, stucturaly it is considered a "hinge" joint to some degree....

[bblaze]

The mob I am working for atm build a tray that is a certified ROPS, also been fitting internal ROPS to hiluxs and prados. The design of these is they bolt to the floor at the base of the B pillar and have at least one anchor point through the B pillar at about window height, some have another mount near the roof. These are all certified
cheers
blaze

[rick130]

for those looking for some ideas, look at SD, but in the "RACE" or "MOTORSPORT" section, not the expidetion section. These seem to be a bit better designed for actual roll over...yes they are a weld in design as apposed to bolt in, but that is the point...every place you have a bolted joint, stucturaly it is considered a "hinge" joint to some degree....

I'd reckon the 'expedition' cages would be fine for 'normal' use and it has to be better than a stock Defender cabin :D
As Pat said, even a Milford cargo barrier helps.

Land Rover Defender 130 Roll Cages | Safety Devices (http://www.safetydevices.com/expedition/products/roll-cages/'s=true&make=Land+Rover&model=Defender+130%7C%7C1983%7C0&variant=4-door%7CHigh+Capacity+Crew%2FDouble+Cab+Pick-Up%7C)

One day I'll bend up a basic internal hoop, 6 point cage, and the plus is that it will hold up the hood lining.

For ultimate roll over protection you want a cage like a V8 Supercar, but that isn't very practical and good luck getting a state RTA to OK it :angel:

[JDNSW]

Just to put it in perspective - the SMHEA was, in the 1950s, the first organisation to introduce the mandatory fitting and wearing of seat belts (anywhere) for a large number of vehicles, mostly Landrovers. Their experience was that following this, the number of fatalities in motor vehicle accidents was reduced from a very high figure to zero (except for those not wearing the belts). It is worth noting that none of these vehicles had roll cages, or, for that matter, retracting seat belts, or belts or fitting to ADRS!

Obviously there are exceptions, as shown by the examples quoted earlier, but the statistics do not show that deaths and injuries for rollover accidents are a major concern. Certainly, the statistics show that when fatal accidents are concerned, rollovers are more highly represented in four wheel drives, although I have not seen any figures to suggest that they are high for Defenders, specifically. What is usually glossed over in these figures is that the actual fatal accident rate for four wheel drives is low compared to other types.

And the number of fatalities related to rollovers is very small compared to those related to failure to wear seatbelts or, even more, driver blood alcohol levels.

The situation in offroad competition driving is very different, and here rollover protection is appropriate. And probably also for those who drive on (or off) the road as if they are in a competition. But for most drivers, I suspect the relative lack of body roll control in a Defender frightens them from undertaking driving that is likely to result in a rollover. (Probably should exclude from this a low speed lying on its side offroad - but this is unlikely to result in death or serious injury provided a seat belt is worn and you keep your arms in the vehicle.)

John

[uninformed]

The mob I am working for atm build a tray that is a certified ROPS, also been fitting internal ROPS to hiluxs and prados. The design of these is they bolt to the floor at the base of the B pillar and have at least one anchor point through the B pillar at about window height, some have another mount near the roof. These are all certified
cheers
blaze

A tray is one thing that is easy to do well. As for the Hiluxs and Prados, well as I said, they are a different construction to a Defender and this is the big difference....you would not bolt a cage to the floor of a Defender, especially a truck cab!

[Allan]

Just looking through a TD5 workshop manual and came across a "Beach Bar" used by militery vehicles only but was introduced for fitment to all 02MY soft top vehicles. I Have noticed our ninety has a ber behind the seats but no hoop. I may look at getting one to see if it can be fitted.

Allan

[rick130]

[snip]

Obviously there are exceptions, as shown by the examples quoted earlier, but the statistics do not show that deaths and injuries for rollover accidents are a major concern. Certainly, the statistics show that when fatal accidents are concerned, rollovers are more highly represented in four wheel drives, although I have not seen any figures to suggest that they are high for Defenders, specifically. What is usually glossed over in these figures is that the actual fatal accident rate for four wheel drives is low compared to other types.

And the number of fatalities related to rollovers is very small compared to those related to failure to wear seatbelts or, even more, driver blood alcohol levels.

[snip]
John

John, it'd be interesting to break down the figures (if available) by region and state as I'd reckon from anecdotal reports that roll overs contribute significantly to fatalities and injuries in the NT but then most of those casualties are caused by people riding in trays and not wearing seatbelts when in the cab.
Take those out and it'd be an interesting comparison state by state.

[JDNSW]

John, it'd be interesting to break down the figures (if available) by region and state as I'd reckon from anecdotal reports that roll overs contribute significantly to fatalities and injuries in the NT but then most of those casualties are caused by people riding in trays and not wearing seatbelts when in the cab.
Take those out and it'd be an interesting comparison state by state.

The only actual figures I've seen are in some of the Monash University reports. But they do not break down by state and do not break down by vehicle model, only class of vehicle.

Most fatal accidents involve either drink driving or failure to wear seatbelts (or both) - I suspect that if you remove these from the rollover statistics the numbers would be pretty small, probably too small to draw any useful conclusions.

John

[Allan]

Just found this listing, no price guide though.

Terrafirma Roll Cages - Safety Devices Accessories for Land Rover ... (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=20)

Allan

[PAT303]

The only actual figures I've seen are in some of the Monash University reports. But they do not break down by state and do not break down by vehicle model, only class of vehicle.

Most fatal accidents involve either drink driving or failure to wear seatbelts (or both) - I suspect that if you remove these from the rollover statistics the numbers would be pretty small, probably too small to draw any useful conclusions.

John

The roll overs we have here mostly cause spinal injuries not deaths,the deaths we have are caused by the vehicle hitting tree's and having wide open roads the speeds are high and nothing short of a rally spec cage would help,some of the vehicles are in pieces or twisted to the point of not being able to tell the make or model,drink driving is a big one as is excessive speed.I look at a bar as a one shot deal,it only has to work for one crash. Pat

[tuffrangie]

Just found this:

Land Rover capotando - Indoor de Mogi - YouTube

Bet this bloke wishes he had a roll cage!

[newhue]

That's a pretty flat cab for a relatively low speed roll, and one roll at that.

Does anyone recall a you-tube vid of a prado rolling several times down a hill after sliding whist reversing down a dirt track. I just wonder how the trusty 130 would cope. I'm pretty sure the good wife won't.

[Ranga]

That's a pretty flat cab for a relatively low speed roll, and one roll at that.

Does anyone recall a you-tube vid of a prado rolling several times down a hill after sliding whist reversing down a dirt track. I just wonder how the trusty 130 would cope. I'm pretty sure the good wife won't.

That was a Pajero wasn't it?

Sent from my phone using Tapatalk

[bidds]

A big thanks to those guys and girls that respond to these horrific crashes. :BigThumb:

I was nearly killed by car while riding (safely!) my pushbike a few years ago and I'm grateful there were legends close on hand to help and get me to more help.

As a previous poster said, I believe that when your times up, it's up. But these saints have to clean up when all those other peoples' time expires/nearly expires.

Hat's off to you.

[wagoo]

LandRover may have made subtle structural changes to the Puma series that I'm not aware of, but based on personal professional experience maintaining, repairing and wrecking previous models, there is no way IMO that Defenders could be considered a comparitively safe vehicle to be in, regardless of the type of accident.
The bodywork has the structural integrity of a wet cardboard box, and I beleive they weren't permitted to be sold in the USA unless fitted with a Safety Devices full roll cage.The authorities should compell LandRover to do that here also.
Bill.

[wagoo]

That's a pretty flat cab for a relatively low speed roll, and one roll at that.

Does anyone recall a you-tube vid of a prado rolling several times down a hill after sliding whist reversing down a dirt track. I just wonder how the trusty 130 would cope. I'm pretty sure the good wife won't.

Take a close look at the back panel of your truck cab. Aside from windows there's nothing but a thin sheet of aluminium with no vertical or horizontal reinforcing.
I extensively rebuilt a rolled 130 Double cab some years ago, but used the much stronger back panel from a series 2 truck cab.No substitute for a bar or cage though.
Bill.

[JDNSW]

LandRover may have made subtle structural changes to the Puma series that I'm not aware of, but based on personal professional experience maintaining, repairing and wrecking previous models, there is no way IMO that Defenders could be considered a comparitively safe vehicle to be in, regardless of the type of accident.
The bodywork has the structural integrity of a wet cardboard box, and I beleive they weren't permitted to be sold in the USA unless fitted with a Safety Devices full roll cage.The authorities should compell LandRover to do that here also.
Bill.

This is certainly correct - but the fact remains that they have a very good safety record. This probably reflects the fact that, by and large, they attract owners who drive sensibly, and avoiding accidents in the first place is clearly much more effective at reducing deaths and injuries than is building vehicles that are more survivable. "Safety" specifications do not correlate at all well with accident statistics.

John

[CJT]

I have been following this post on Pirate4x4 regarding roll cages in Disco's.

roll cage advice? - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php't=1023698)

http://fusionmoto.blogspot.com/2009/11/new-roll-cage-headliner-for-super-rover.html

The pictures they show look quiet good with the majority of steel work being behind trim and not too noticable.

[PAT303]

LandRover may have made subtle structural changes to the Puma series that I'm not aware of, but based on personal professional experience maintaining, repairing and wrecking previous models, there is no way IMO that Defenders could be considered a comparitively safe vehicle to be in, regardless of the type of accident.
The bodywork has the structural integrity of a wet cardboard box, and I beleive they weren't permitted to be sold in the USA unless fitted with a Safety Devices full roll cage.The authorities should compell LandRover to do that here also.
Bill.

I suppose if LR are compelled to make the defender stronger maybe the Japanese should be compelled to change thier utes to a 500kg payload instead of 1000 and make GVM upgrades on cruisers no more or Patrols chassis made so they don't snap in two and handbrakes that work and wheel studs that don't snap off and have both axles the same width so they don't crab down the road or the two dozen other things that make non LR vehicles unsafe?.The facts show defenders are safe,not as safe as they should but safe all the same. Pat

[wagoo]

I suppose if LR are compelled to make the defender stronger maybe the Japanese should be compelled to change thier utes to a 500kg payload instead of 1000 and make GVM upgrades on cruisers no more or Patrols chassis made so they don't snap in two and handbrakes that work and wheel studs that don't snap off and have both axles the same width so they don't crab down the road or the two dozen other things that make non LR vehicles unsafe?.The facts show defenders are safe,not as safe as they should but safe all the same. Pat

Sounds to me like you are exaggerating the faults of the other vehicles you mention, where the incidence of failures is quite low relative to the number of units sold.
The fact is Defender bodywork is made from cheese. lay them on their roofs and they WILL collapse every time, not one time in 50, 100 or 1000.
Landrover with their Defenders, previous Counties and earlier Series vehicles have been allowed to sell vehicles in this and some other countries that would not comply with ADR specifications for crash worthiness, particularly in rollovers, simply on the basis that they fall into the multi purpose commercial vehicle category. As if drivers of these vehicles are less worthy than the rest.
Rationalise your choice of vehicle to yourself anyway you like, but the criticism i have made here about the structural integrity of Defender body construction is irrefutable, and I do hope that you and your family never have to find out exactly how weak they are before you install that cage.
Bill.

[alittlebitconcerned]

So, what is involved in getting a roll cage certified for rego? Is is merely a matter of getting an engineer to certify it or is there more to it?

[d2dave]

So, what is involved in getting a roll cage certified for rego? Is is merely a matter of getting an engineer to certify it or is there more to it?

If you installed a non certified one who is going to know? I would rather roll with an uncertified one than none at all.

Dave.

[Psimpson7]

So, what is involved in getting a roll cage certified for rego? Is is merely a matter of getting an engineer to certify it or is there more to it?

Depends on the state you live in, but I have a fully engineered internal / external bolt in 6 point cage in my 90.

No dramas in Qld.

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

My thoughts on this are, If a ROPS style frame is designed that replaces the B pillar and ties forward to the top of the windscreen, this would be a step in the right direction.

The external frames, as good as they are, do increase weight above the old centre of gravity and the pipes are a magnet for sticks to jamb between them and the body.

The separate frames fitted inside the truck cab for example, are ----- words fail me! --- hard to live with.

So that is my reason for replacing members of the body with an incorporated frame.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Hi Arther. Are you saying you have already replaced the B pillar in the way you've described, as well as other elements that have become an incorporated frame?

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Arther. Are you saying you have already replaced the B pillar in the way you've described, as well as other elements that have become an incorporated frame?

Hi

No that's not been done yet, It's what I think should be a solution to the problem.