Reversing / recovery in soft sand

[HarryO]

Every muscle in my body is aching after spending 4 hours digging my Landy D3 out every 2-3 meters for about 400m of soft beach. I am not very experienced in beach driving but think I had all the basics right reading the posts on the forum.

LAndy Disco 3
18” Rims with General Grabbers
Tyre Pressure at 16psi
Sand Terrain Selected
Low range
DSC off

Basically heading down the beach above the high tide mark (with enough momentum) came around a small bend really soft sand and then the beach started to narrow and a rising tide – I had nowhere to go :eek: I had to coast to a stop. The fun started as soon as I tried to reverse bogged almost straight away. Out with the spade and 2 x Maxtrax cleared the sand around wheels and under body. Started reversing and tried to build a bit of momentum while on the Maxtrax but about a meter off them would bog again – this carried of for 400m – Terrain that I had travelled over going forward was impossible in reverse over because I could not build momentum. Ended up with the family sitting on the sand dune after about 100m! “Dad got us into this mess he can get us out:mad::mad:”.

Problems I noticed:
1) I need to trade my family in..!
2) I could not get the vehicle height to go to lowest – it was locked in extended height. Withthe chassis on the sand I wanted to raise lower the wheels a few times while packing sand under the tyres but it would not let me.
3) The Landy started sliding down the beach slope with the front and rear wheels out of line – increased drag and doubled the amount of digging !!!
4) Noticed a very strong smell of petrol which went away once we got going - can not see a leak.
5) Exhaust jack burned my hands (rather hard blocking one exhaust and using the other while your family sits on the dune)

Does anyone have any tips for recovery in reverse?

Is there a fuse I can pull to disable DSC while on the beach – keep forgetting to turn it off.

[Blknight.aus]

you need lower tyre pressures for starters... 16 is as low as tyre manufacturers reccomend that you go BUT if you go dead slow and take it easy you can go down to 12, 10, 8 and in moments of "Be buggered If Im going to dig my way through that lot" Ive been known to run 4 psi but then I also slow way down.

If its side stepping aim downslope and drive that way if you can, then get it squared up and have another go on a different line.

the suspension wont lift a wheel for you, the suspension only pushes down on the wheels stations its not capable of lifting a wheel off of the ground for you.

use a rubber bung from a damage control kit or a bit of flat rubber to protect your hand, a thong or floor mat works well.

[PhilipA]

In your case I would have tried 16PSI, then 14, then 12 , then 10 and so on.

I was once stuck like this "in irons" in a 2WD VW Type 3 at Fraser and I had to drop to 6PSI before it would climb out of its wheel tracks.
You should not have to raise the car to fit Maxtrax, just dig a bit out from behind the wheels and wedge them in. You have probably found out by now that it is a good idea to put a metre of rope on them.

The other worthwhile trick is to drive forward a couple of feet before trying to reverse without digging in. This gives a run up . usually you can go a bit forward, abit back etc etc , and it lengthens each time until you can get enough momentum up to escape. BUT this heats up the auto so you have to be careful.

It sounds to me that you kept the foot in too long if you needed to raise the car. The key to debog is delicacy. NO WHEELSPIN. As soon as you feel even a little wheelspin you stop trying and reassess the situation

You have gained the most valuable thing in sand driving; experience. You now know what not to do.
Regards Philip A

[wrinklearthur]

Don't tell anyone about this. The family got their dose of vitamin D sun baking, you gained experience, and think of the money you saved by doing the recovery your self.
Plus the healthy workout you put yourself through, again think of the money you saved, not paying the gym fee's.
All in the name of fun. :D

[superquag]

From memory, 12 to 14 psi, road-pattern 195 SR 15, bit of a run-up. - With the appropriate tyre pressures you can take most vehicles into some interesting places. :D Black Peak (north of Cervantes) in this case. No, its not a LR, Itsa Mitsi van.
Later that day a new Tojo went churning up, full pressures...and sunk to chassis. Totally destroyed track for me.:mad::mad:

Wise words given to me ages ago, Go in with "normal" deflation... get bogged... lower pressures - then decide whether to keep going or back out.

James in Gosnells

'95 Classic Vogue SE with working EAS. And 'road' tyres...

[mike 90 RR]

Wise words given to me ages ago, Go in with "normal" deflation... get bogged... lower pressures - then decide whether to keep going or back out.


I agree with the above ..... and the comments of tyre pressure ratings ... 2psi lower makes a huge difference ..... But be warned that at 12psi or below .... You start to run the risk of splitting the tyre off the rim, so watch the tyre spinning aggression when they are low.



Next time you venture out ... Double Line the floors of your car with strips of carpet. If you get bogged, then you can pull them out and use them as part of your recovery tracks .... Should give you 3mtr's of line. 1 person drives the car on the carpet while some one outside moves the carpet from the front to the rear as you make progress.


Or ... Make contact with,

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/gghaggis.html

He specializes in demonstrating these rides




Cheers n happy trails
Mike

[101RRS]

You said you were in low range - I have found that in many occasions low range will just dig you in. High range in a low gear often works best - less digging of the wheels. And yes DSC needs to be checked everytime you change something. As mentioned - air suspension does not raise or lower the wheels - it raises and lowers the body. I am not sure why you wanted to lower the body (I guess it was your thought it would lift wheels) but it stayed in extended because it was detecting you were beached and trying to give you more height under the body.

I have had the standard tyres down to 10psi without issue.

If all else fails - switch to rock crawl - then the car is closest to a normal 4wd in that mode (don't forget to switch off DSC).

Garry

[isuzurover]

It is amazing the difference lower pressures make. I regularly run my tyres down to 7 psi - and have not had any issues. However I have noticed that landie alloys seem not quite as good at holding the bead as steels.

I also agree that high range is best. Low range should only be used if you cannot drive in high.

WA beach sand can get very soft IME.

[101RRS]

Reverse (lowest gear available) and low range = dig holes

High range, lower pressures, DSC off and TR set to sand would most likely have worked. Also if possible backing along the wheel tracks might have helped.

Garry

[Xtreme]

With 400m to reverse in sand at the rate you describe, I think I would have tried to turn around if possible.

Also, under the circumstances, I think low range is fine - provided the right foot is used gently with no wheel spin. Results in less strain on overall drivetrain, especially the clutch/s.
I agree that high range and momentum are good/necessary on sand once you can get on top and stay there but when you're bogged in sand and each wheel is trying to climb a 60 or 80 deg 'hill' then I think the careful use of low range is called for.

[SuperMono]

My recovery gear includes some inflatable mats (never used) and stored on the floor in the rear some approx 500mm wide carpet strips folded over (so they are nearly 2metres long).

I have used the carpet previously and it does help.

[HarryO]

Thanks for all the replies..

The most common suggestion seems to be drop the tyre pressure in stages until your out - which I did not try.


With 400m to reverse in sand at the rate you describe, I think I would have tried to turn around if possible.
The tide was coming in and the beach ended up being quite narrow – also the sand was a lot softer as soon as you turned off the “tracks”.


If its side stepping aim downslope and drive that way if you can, then get it squared up and have another go on a different line. The suspension wont lift a wheel for you, the suspension only pushes down on the wheels stations its not capable of lifting a wheel off of the ground for you..
When the Landy started sliding down the slope towards the water I really got worried but another guy in my office agrees with you and says steer with it and go down onto the harder wet sand – use this harder area to build up speed / momentum and then get back onto the higher tracks. Not to sure if I am brave enough for that yet – seen too many youtube pictures of drowned / swamped vehicles.



You have probably found out by now that it is a good idea to put a metre of rope on them.
Really good idea – it’s amazing how deep it sinks the Maxtrax – gone!! - your see nothing but churned up beach sand – ½ the time was spent digging & prodding with the spade to find the bloody things. I need to order new ones anyhow because most of the knobs on mine are gone now – clear sign of spinning the wheels which I now know not to do..

Thanks guys - lovely stuff this thing called “experience” plan to take a few mates back this weekend (who won’t sit on the dune) and go get stuck again so that I can try these suggestions out – only one way to learn..

[DiscoWeb]

[QUOTE=HarryO;1587359
The most common suggestion seems to be drop the tyre pressure in stages until your out - which I did not try.

HarryO,

Provided you are not planning to do any hard and fast turns you can reduce the pressures way down to get out of sticky situations as this increase the "track" significantly and lets you drive out of most places.

Obviously once you are out re-inflate to you normal sand driving pressure (I would suggest 14 psi rather than 16psi) so you do not roll the tyre of the rim or damage the sidewall etc.

Otherwise sounds like the family had a nice day at the beach.

George

[Tombie]

The tide was coming in and the beach ended up being quite narrow – also the sand was a lot softer as soon as you turned off the “tracks”.

When the Landy started sliding down the slope towards the water I really got worried but another guy in my office agrees with you and says steer with it and go down onto the harder wet sand – use this harder area to build up speed / momentum and then get back onto the higher tracks. Not to sure if I am brave enough for that yet – seen too many youtube pictures of drowned / swamped vehicles.

<snip>

Thanks guys - lovely stuff this thing called “experience” plan to take a few mates back this weekend (who won’t sit on the dune) and go get stuck again so that I can try these suggestions out – only one way to learn..

Don't (if at all possible) venture onto the wet sand on a rising tide :eek:
On a falling tide isn't really a problem ;)

Getting stuck below the wet-line on a rising tide can prove very expensive :(

[Blknight.aus]

When the Landy started sliding down the slope towards the water I really got worried but another guy in my office agrees with you and says steer with it and go down onto the harder wet sand – use this harder area to build up speed / momentum and then get back onto the higher tracks. Not to sure if I am brave enough for that yet – seen too many youtube pictures of drowned / swamped vehicles.


not quite what I ment, dont drive it all the way down, just while your trying to get momentum allow the vehicle to get a little bit of its own head, work with it not against it to get momentum and then start trying to impose your will on it. a couple of lost feet on the very soft stuff wont matter much unless you're cutting it way to close to to the line. If you dig through the dry layer to the wet stuff thats underneath near the high tide mark on a rising tide youve had it and unless your lucky enough to be pointing in a direction that favors someone snatching or winching you out with their vehicle your not likely to recover the vehicle before it gets wet.

[superquag]

".... Don't (if at all possible) venture onto the wet sand on a rising tide..."



Good reason to keep the HIgh Water line between you and the watery stuff....

- Not this way 'round.:(


Embarrasment up at Shark Bay.

[superquag]

The general opinion of the Wise Ones here is that a long-handled shovel is more useful than a 'normal' one.

[cal415]

Wow, i am supprised that you carried on for 4 hours and never went below 16psi.... i usualy start at 12 and go down from there, in my county 6-7 is the normal pressure. Long handled shovel is useful but i only carry a spade normally, the only time it gets a work out on the beach is usualy playing in the sand digging holes to try and get our vehicles stuck.

[mikehzz]

I agree with garrycol about changing from sand mode to reverse out. I have used mud ruts to reverse out of sand bogs with good effect. Sand mode was digging me a bigger hole. Tyre pressures way down of course. Also, you have to at least start by going down hill a little. The slightest slope helps a lot.

[HarryO]

Thanks for the reply's and PM's

With the reduced tyre pressure giving the increased risk of the tyre leaving the rim – do you guys run the front tyre slightly higher pressure than the rear? I would think that the fronts would be more likely to loose a tyre when your turning – even if it is a gradual turn.

I did not like the idea of going anywhere near the wet stuff - I would rather sit and wait until the tide goes out than loose the Landy..


Wow, i am surprised that you carried on for 4 hours and never went below 16psi.

Now that the wife has seen all these posts she has a colourful way of describing why I did not let the tyre down - goes along the line of me being to F@#$ (F@#$)#@ stupid and Stubborn.... She will feed of this every arguement for the next 20 years if I live that long!! ;-)

[cal415]

typically on a car with low profile tyres i airdown the rear slightly more, i did this on the 18s i had on my d2 and 17s on the prado, but eventually i jsut started running same pressure front and rear with them with no spun beads. I also run slightly higher pressure when full loaded, some times more in the rear if very heavily loaded over the back axle. The disco's(d2 atleast) alloys have a really tight bead, several tyres places have commented to me how much harder they are to break then other makes. I have been they have an extra ridge or something in the rim to hold the bead.

I have spent alot of time driving at low pressures on the sand with lots of different tyres and have never lost a bead myself, seen it done a few times but its usualy when someone tries going full lock while stationary, i have also seen one pop off a rear on with the car on bad side angle stuck on a dune but that was running very low pressure and being driven stupidly.

[PhilipA]

Now that the wife has seen all these posts she has a colourful way of describing why I did not let the tyre down - goes along the line of me being to F@#$#@ stupid and Stubborn.... She will feed of this every arguement for the next 20 years if I live that long!! ;-)


Vision is always 20:20 in hindsight.
And you can maybe ask her why she didn't take over if she knew how to do it.
Regards Philip A

[cal415]

btw you should have had the family pushing the car as well, you'd be supprised how much that actually helps in some situations.

[mike 90 RR]

Vision is always 20:20 in hindsight.
And you can maybe ask her why she didn't take over if she knew how to do it.


Oooooooh no Philip :no2: .... You neeeeeeever say that ... :no2:

More like ...



............ Yes dear



............ Sorry dear



............I know dear




............ Your right dear



............ Sorry dear





.....

[superquag]

Mike has the right idea....

ALL men must learn the Important Lies...

I'm sorry Dear,,,,

You are Right,,,

I am wrong,,,

Learn to tell these lies with a straight face...and you will have a long and happy marriage.

Old(er) James in Gosnells
(Still married to same Wife for... um.... er.... xx years)

[superquag]

"...She will feed off this every arguement for the next 20 years if I live that long!! ...."


...You will indeed live those next 60 years... Certainly it will feel like it :p:p:p

[PhilipA]

btw you should have had the family pushing the car as well, you'd be supprised how much that actually helps in some situations.
__________________


Very true and gives them a stake in the outcome.

The only time I ever was bogged on Fraser was at the Eurong Fuel pump in my VW. There was a busload of old ladies there and I asked them to push. 12 old ladies can push well and I popped out of the bog.

I remember once in Thailand I had a Nissan GQ with difflock, and went to try and visit the Kuomintang regiment in Northern Thailand. It rained on the way up Doi Thun and became so slippery that you couldn't stand up. I couldn't go forward and slid back to within 1 foot of a cliff edge.

I got the wife and 2 little kids to stand on the edge of the cliff and push the car sideways as I spun the wheels. This straightened the car up and I was able to then reverse down and turn around.
Get them involved.
Regards Philip A

[123rover50]

I dont go on beaches much but here in Qld everyone drives on the wet stuff rather than in the dry powdery stuff. Only when the tide comes in are they forced up into the dunes.

Didiman

[Xtreme]

I dont go on beaches much but here in Qld everyone drives on the wet stuff rather than in the dry powdery stuff. Only when the tide comes in are they forced up into the dunes.

Didiman

IMHO, that is generally due to flatter beaches (especially where the reef is offshore) and harder packed sand due to resultant smaller surf - except when the monsoons hit, but then beaches recover reasonably quickly and sand packs down again.