LT230 Centre diff damage

[Psimpson7]

I bought a rebuild kit and heavy duty cross pin for my lt230 a while back to fit before I fitted the underdrive. One reason I decided to do this was that I had found some bronzey shavings in the oil previously.

I finally got around to starting to strip the transfer this week.

Bear in mind that this is out of my 90. It is 2001 and has done 75k miles from new, and has been serviced at ridicuosly frequent intervals due to the use that it gets

spot whats missing:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/149.jpg

Yep every single bloody shim from behind the planetary gears:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/571.jpg

This is the resultant damage in the centre diff housing itself. Bugger!

I find it funny the whole load of whining about electrical issues and electronic problems on later LR's and all I ever seem to smash is the big solid heavy lumps of steel!

Makes me wonder how long these shims actually last in normal use and also hard use..

[PAT303]

I'll be doing my Tdi next year with 450k's on the clock,it has alot of backlash. Pat

[wrinklearthur]

I bought a rebuild kit and heavy duty cross pin for my lt230 a while back to fit before I fitted the underdrive. ..

Can you show us a picture of the heavy duty cross shaft?

.

[TimNZ]

Can you show us a picture of the heavy duty cross shaft?

.

This one perhaps?

Ashcroft Transmissions - HD Cross Pin (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=138)

[LowRanger]

I bought a rebuild kit and heavy duty cross pin for my lt230 a while back to fit before I fitted the underdrive. One reason I decided to do this was that I had found some bronzey shavings in the oil previously.

I finally got around to starting to strip the transfer this week.

Bear in mind that this is out of my 90. It is 2001 and has done 75k miles from new, and has been serviced at ridicuosly frequent intervals due to the use that it gets

spot whats missing:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/149.jpg

Yep every single bloody shim from behind the planetary gears:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/571.jpg

This is the resultant damage in the centre diff housing itself. Bugger!

I find it funny the whole load of whining about electrical issues and electronic problems on later LR's and all I ever seem to smash is the big solid heavy lumps of steel!

Makes me wonder how long these shims actually last in normal use and also hard use..

The vagaries of what I may find in my transfer is part of the reason,that I am going to fit an Ashcroft transfer in my Defender when I fit my Underdrive.At least I will know the actual cost upfront,and won't have to worry about all the hidden extras that pop up,and add to the cost,and to the down time.I know that I have a leak at the intermediate shaft,and it will more than likely need a steel sleeve fitted to the housing,so there is already extra cost and downtime,so a reco. makes sense for my application,and I will still have my original to repair at my own pace as a spare if ever required.Apart from the leaking intermediate shaft,my transfer appears and operates perfectly,except that the original owner had fitted the filler plug in at an angle.It doesn't leak,but every time I see it,it annoys me:mad:

Wayne

[Psimpson7]

The HD cross pin that Tim linked is the one Arthur.

After getting some advice, we are going to rebuild it as it is with new cross pin, and new shims. Apparently it doesn't look too bad.

[Bearman]

The HD cross pin that Tim linked is the one Arthur.

After getting some advice, we are going to rebuild it as it is with new cross pin, and new shims. Apparently it doesn't look too bad.

There are steel shims that you can use instead of the brass ones, which will last longer, but they should be included (in 2 sizes) with the HD cross pin.

[wagoo]

There is a firm in Moorabin east of Melbourne that re machines the hemispheres, supplies extra thick thrust washers and a one piece cross shaft. The firms trading name is Total Traction Drivelines.and Matt the proprietor is easy to deal with, unlike his former employer Jeff Mac diffs who also rebuild CDs.
It was discovered that in many instances on original CD carriers that the surface of the hemisphere was not concentric with the side gear spigot bores.
What happens then is that instead of all 4 pinion gears sharing the load, only one or two gears do the work for a while until their thrust washers and/or the hemisphere seat surface wears down, whereby the other gears gradually come in to play. That is why thrust washer wear is uneven and depth of wear in the hemisphere is generally not equal at each pinion gear position.
On that basis it is quite clear that a remachined and true (concentric) rebuilt CD , with all 4 pinion gears sharing the load from the beginning will be stronger and last much longer than an original one.
Fitting a new set of thrust washers to an unevenly worn hemisphere is just a band aid fix that gives the same un equal load sharing between the gears as original.
Bill.

[justinc]

A Month ago I had a similar failure in a 2008 130. Ended up replacing the whole case as the intermediate shaft had also flogged the case out. A good low mileage used one was cheaper than a rebuild.

The puma 130 had covered 110,000km.

I wouldn't be fitting it back together using that diff housing , the side gears look to have caused too much damage to the case.

I see a lot of D2's now with bronze particles in the oil when drained, these get the thrust washers addressed ASAP because the next thing is the CD housing gets destroyed like in those pics, and costs a LOT more to replace.

JC

[OffTrack]

I see a lot of D2's now with bronze particles in the oil when drained, these get the thrust washers addressed ASAP because the next thing is the CD housing gets destroyed like in those pics, and costs a LOT more to replace.

JC

Did an oil change on the transfer case of my 2000 D2 about 6 weeks ago and it looked like someone had dumped a bag of gold and silver glitter in the oil. Of course when I bought it 6 months ago I was told the TC had been checked and was in excellent condition. Looks like I have a TC rebuild/replacement to look forward to in the near future.

[tebone]

Hi Guys,
If you want to save heaps of money and have reliability in the centre diff I welded my lt230 centre diff rear spider gear to the carrier and got rid of the side spider gears. It turned my car to rear wheel drive but still locks into 4wd the same way. Very happy and had no problems also the car drives better especially under acceleration.
Regards Paul

[uninformed]

Hi Guys,
If you want to save heaps of money and have reliability in the centre diff I welded my lt230 centre diff rear spider gear to the carrier and got rid of the side spider gears. It turned my car to rear wheel drive but still locks into 4wd the same way. Very happy and had no problems also the car drives better especially under acceleration.
Regards Paul


hmmm, not something Id ever do. Considering the number of LT230's on the road around the world and they are one of the few parts that are reliable on a rover....

[tebone]

hmmm, not something Id ever do. Considering the number of LT230's on the road around the world and they are one of the few parts that are reliable on a rover....

It seems to me in this thread maybe there not so reliable. Guys are wanting to upgrade to HD cross shaft and bronze shims are wearing causing back lash and filings in the gearbox. The weak point is the lack of lube to the spider gears causing them to seize onto the shafts which they break.
I have had both set ups I know which one I'm going for especially with a bit of hp going through the drive line.

[wagoo]

I tend to agree with Tebone.
One scenario where I find constant 4wd a PITA is when exiting a lane or driveway onto a busy road. You have a bit of left hand lock wound on,One or both front wheels are in the gutter, you see a short break in the traffic and give it some berries to accellerate into the traffic stream and all you get is massive front axle tramp with the possibility of breaking a front diff, halfshaft, CV joint, or all of the above because the centre diff,together with the front diff sends power to the wheel (left front) with the least resistance.Due to the 2:1 step up ratio of differential action multiplied by both the centre and front diffs, that spinning hopping wheel is spinning at 4 times the speed it would if all 4 wheels had equal traction.You can imagine the shockloading on that wheels drive components once the other wheels get a bit of drive.
For Australian conditions where the majority of the populace do not live in the snow belt, constant 4wd is an unnecessary complication IMO. A competent 4 wheel driver knows when to engage the front axle to improve vehicle control on loose slippery surfaces.
A decent strong diff in the bum and selective 4wd is all that is needed IMO, but LandRover steadfastly refuse to provide the former with later models
I knew a bloke many years ago who was a dead set Hoon who used to try to impress everyone by doing burnouts in his 400 cu inch Chev powered Rangey. He broke virtually everything on that vehicle untill he made a spool for the centre diff to allow selective 2wd/4wd and slapped a built 9'' diff in the bum.Very few problems after that despite him remaining a hoon.

Bill.

[PhilipA]

Now I do not want to upset anyone, but you have really hit the nail on the head with why LT230s, and LT95 diffs fail.

The damage on the thrust washers and hemispheres is usually caused by a BIG difference in speed of the front axle versus the rear. In normal non wheelspin driving this does not occur. The spiders are just sitting there or moving slowly as the car corners. Ditto with rear diffs.
I think the answer is to lock the diff on low friction surfaces, particularly sand .
I had my LT95 fixed with modified thrust washers when I first bought it, ( because of lots of trans backlash) and 8 years later I had no problems.
No wheelspin no diff problems.

Regards Philip A

[uninformed]

I tend to agree with Tebone.
One scenario where I find constant 4wd a PITA is when exiting a lane or driveway onto a busy road. You have a bit of left hand lock wound on,One or both front wheels are in the gutter, you see a short break in the traffic and give it some berries to accellerate into the traffic stream and all you get is massive front axle tramp with the possibility of breaking a front diff, halfshaft, CV joint, or all of the above because the centre diff,together with the front diff sends power to the wheel (left front) with the least resistance.Due to the 2:1 step up ratio of differential action multiplied by both the centre and front diffs, that spinning hopping wheel is spinning at 4 times the speed it would if all 4 wheels had equal traction.You can imagine the shockloading on that wheel drive components once the other wheels get a bit of drive.
For Australian conditions where the majority of the populace do not live in the snow belt, constant 4wd is an unnecessary complication IMO. A competent 4 wheel driver knows when to engage the front axle to improve vehicle control on loose slippery surfaces.
A decent strong diff in the bum and selective 4wd is all that is needed IMO, but LandRover steadfastly refuse to provide the former with later models
I knew a bloke many years ago who was a dead set Hoon who used to try to impress everyone by doing burnouts in his 400 cu inch Chev powered Rangey. He broke virtually everything on that vehicle untill he made a spool for the centre diff to allow selective 2wd/4wd and slapped a built 9'' diff in the bum.Very few problems after that despite remaining a hoon.

Bill.

Bill I always take in what you have to say, But I have never experinced this front axle tramp in either my old 81 RRC or my current 110. The 110 I have owned since 2000 and it had a hopped up 300tdi and now a 2.8. When unladen it would be one of the lightest 110's (cut down alloy tray, no sides etc. I dont drive like miss Daisy either....for me the LR 4wd system is perfect. I can use low no difflock on jobsites which may have uneven high(ish) traction dirt tracks, this helps with my 1.8t trailer.

anyone running 2wd in a rover would want to have atleast an upgraded Sals rear!

[uninformed]

Now I do not want to upset anyone, but you have really hit the nail on the head with why LT230s, and LT95 diffs fail.

The damage on the thrust washers and hemispheres is usually caused by a BIG difference in speed of the front axle versus the rear. In normal non wheelspin driving this does not occur. The spiders are just sitting there or moving slowly as the car corners. Ditto with rear diffs.
I think the answer is to lock the diff on low friction surfaces, particularly sand .
I had my LT95 fixed with modified thrust washers when I first bought it, ( because of lots of trans backlash) and 8 years later I had no problems.
No wheelspin no diff problems.

Regards Philip A

Philip, do you remember the little notice plate infront of the gear lever on the old RRC? it stated not to engauge the center difflock UNTILL traction was lost! this plate and wording was changed because of exactly what you say........its common sense really.

[rick130]

FWIW Quaife make (and have done for years) a torque biasing centre diff for the LT230 (if you want to pony up the $$$$)

[wagoo]

Bill I always take in what you have to say, But I have never experinced this front axle tramp in either my old 81 RRC or my current 110. The 110 I have owned since 2000 and it had a hopped up 300tdi and now a 2.8. When unladen it would be one of the lightest 110's (cut down alloy tray, no sides etc. I dont drive like miss Daisy either....for me the LR 4wd system is perfect. I can use low no difflock on jobsites which may have uneven high(ish) traction dirt tracks, this helps with my 1.8t trailer.

anyone running 2wd in a rover would want to have atleast an upgraded Sals rear!

Serg, I got caught twice in different vehicles in the exact scenario I described,in the same lane. The first time was in a Stage one V8 which I initially put down to the very poor tramp control of leaf sprung Landy front suspensions. The second time was in a RangeRover classic with all bushings, dampers etc in good condition, and that was almost as ugly, which surprised me a little, but less so when I considered that the front damper location on top of the axle does nothing to inhibit tramp and radius arm bushings that are soggy enough to allow articulation don't offer much tramp resistance either.
The big diff in the bum as I alluded to earlier is mandatory with selective 2wd/4wd conversion,a modification I would do to any constant 4wd LandRover that I intended to use as a daily driver in traffic conditions.The before and after difference in driveline backlash has to be experienced.
Bill.

[uninformed]

Serg, I got caught twice in different vehicles in the exact scenario I described,in the same lane. The first time was in a Stage one V8 which I initially put down to the very poor tramp control of leaf sprung Landy front suspensions. The second time was in a RangeRover classic with all bushings, dampers etc in good condition, and that was almost as ugly, which surprised me a little, but less so when I considered that the front damper location on top of the axle does nothing to inhibit tramp and radius arm bushings that are soggy enough to allow articulation don't offer much tramp resistance either.
The big diff in the bum as I alluded to earlier is mandatory with selective 2wd/4wd conversion,a modification I would do to any constant 4wd LandRover that I intended to use as a daily driver in traffic conditions.The before and after difference in driveline backlash has to be experienced.
Bill.


yeah the backlash reduction is definitly a bonus, but something I dont notice as its all Im use to. A mate converted his lt230 to part time, due to the fitting of portals and their extra gear train. free wheeling hubs where also made/fitted ;)


That mob in Vic you mentioned, would they do an exchange or supply a hemisphere for non locals?

[djam1]

Serg, I got caught twice in different vehicles in the exact scenario I described,in the same lane. The first time was in a Stage one V8 which I initially put down to the very poor tramp control of leaf sprung Landy front suspensions. The second time was in a RangeRover classic with all bushings, dampers etc in good condition, and that was almost as ugly, which surprised me a little, but less so when I considered that the front damper location on top of the axle does nothing to inhibit tramp and radius arm bushings that are soggy enough to allow articulation don't offer much tramp resistance either.
The big diff in the bum as I alluded to earlier is mandatory with selective 2wd/4wd conversion,a modification I would do to any constant 4wd LandRover that I intended to use as a daily driver in traffic conditions.The before and after difference in driveline backlash has to be experienced.
Bill.

Bill my stage 1 does this sometimes and its frightening.
Very easy to spin the front tyres on bitumen when turning.
Glad that I have a 4 pinion diff in the front

Duane

[wagoo]

yeah the backlash reduction is definitly a bonus, but something I dont notice as its all Im use to. A mate converted his lt230 to part time, due to the fitting of portals and their extra gear train. free wheeling hubs where also made/fitted ;)


That mob in Vic you mentioned, would they do an exchange or supply a hemisphere for non locals?

I don't know Serg. an exchange one without them first seeing and measuring the 'core' would likely be dimensionally different and then require the client to reset the bearing preloads.Of course that is something you or I would check anyway, but there are some who wouldn't and then blame the reconditioners when the transfercase whines or is sloppy or burns out bearings.
bill.

[Dougal]

I tend to agree with Tebone.
One scenario where I find constant 4wd a PITA is when exiting a lane or driveway onto a busy road. You have a bit of left hand lock wound on,One or both front wheels are in the gutter, you see a short break in the traffic and give it some berries to accellerate into the traffic stream and all you get is massive front axle tramp with the possibility of breaking a front diff, halfshaft, CV joint, or all of the above because the centre diff,together with the front diff sends power to the wheel (left front) with the least resistance.Due to the 2:1 step up ratio of differential action multiplied by both the centre and front diffs, that spinning hopping wheel is spinning at 4 times the speed it would if all 4 wheels had equal traction.You can imagine the shockloading on that wheels drive components once the other wheels get a bit of drive.
For Australian conditions where the majority of the populace do not live in the snow belt, constant 4wd is an unnecessary complication IMO. A competent 4 wheel driver knows when to engage the front axle to improve vehicle control on loose slippery surfaces.
A decent strong diff in the bum and selective 4wd is all that is needed IMO, but LandRover steadfastly refuse to provide the former with later models
I knew a bloke many years ago who was a dead set Hoon who used to try to impress everyone by doing burnouts in his 400 cu inch Chev powered Rangey. He broke virtually everything on that vehicle untill he made a spool for the centre diff to allow selective 2wd/4wd and slapped a built 9'' diff in the bum.Very few problems after that despite him remaining a hoon.

Bill.

Bill, wouldn't the main reason he was now not breaking anything, be that he has 1/2 the traction he used to have?

Like Serge I find the fulltime 4wd the best single feature of my rover. Having plenty of traction without having to scrub everything up by selecting 4wd and having front and back diffs forced to turn the same speed around all the corners. I don't have any significant tramp on hard surfaces in my rangie with poly bushes in the radius arms. It does start hopping if I try to play tractor pull (trying to pull out a stuck tractor and having it not budge).

[wagoo]

Bill, wouldn't the main reason he was now not breaking anything, be that he has 1/2 the traction he used to have?
.

Well no Dougal,not in the way he drove the vehicle.It's all about the smoke with hoons you see! On the bitumen where he did the majority of his hooning, he had more traction than before when he did his burnouts with the centre diff unlocked, because under severe accelleration there is a lot of weight transfer to the rear axle, and with 35'' mud terrains in combination with the rear locker there was sufficient traction to rip the rear trailing arm mounts from the chassis, which he then had to substantially reinforce.
bill.

[rick130]

I have to say I've not experienced any front end tramp either, but then I only have an anaemic Tdi :angel:

(I'm not experienced with Tramps at all.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it :D)

[uninformed]

Bill, regarding the tramps, I will try and re/create it in the next few days. I do wonder if spring rate, shock valving, and bush type (material and width) are playing a part. Currently I run 200lb springs, Koni 80 series shocks and have the later/wider type RA's with oem rubber at the axle.

would lift make it better or worse?

I would not want 2wd on road after having a series as well, I like the added braking/ better grip in cornering and to me safer in the wet. Each to their own and if 2wd works better for a person more power to them.

[wrinklearthur]

This one perhaps?

Ashcroft Transmissions - HD Cross Pin (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=138)

Hi All

Ordered my heavy duty cross shaft today, along with a second one for a mate who had dropped by.

I find Ashcroft's pretty good to deal with.

.

[wagoo]

Rick, i'll admit to having my fair share of experience with tramps in my younger, boozier days. It's a wonder I still have both arms:)
Serg. I'm not certain shock valving would have much influence, because being mounted atop the axle tube I can't see how they would inhibit/damp axle housing rotation which is what I am referring to with the word tramp.
The dampers on 80 series Landcruisers and GQ/GU Patrols,mounted behind the axle centre would seem to be better able to control tramp.
But like you say, each to their own. If you haven't experienced the issues I mentioned and the vehicle suits your purpose, all well and good.
For so called hardcore 4wdriving i use my hybrid.For commuting, medium to softroading, or if the wife has to drive, we use our Jackaroo even though we have the use of a much more powerful and just as economical 4,4 LPG RRC in sound mechanical order. My wife can't stand the standard issue backlash, and I've got less tolerance for it than I used to have as well.
I use 4wd for control on the gravel secondary roads in our region without any windup issues on the Jackaroo, and the rear diff is sufficiently strong that it's not really necessary to share the drive between front and rear diffs when towing loaded car or water tank trailers around.
Bill.

[tebone]

Hi Guys,
The reason for me changing to the 2wd centre diff mod was traction problems and spider gear failure. I have a 86 rangie with a supercharged 383 chevy under the bonnet.
Whilst towing my camping trailer the front wheels (33inch) uesd to spin taking off from the lights and coming out of round abouts with using not to much throttle at all ( keeping in mine it produces alot of torque down low). After a while it gets a little annoying.
With the auto and the centre diff mod it has very little back lash and its far easy to drive especially under acceleration which the steering doesn't get loaded up or pull left or right following the road contours

PS: I have upgraded the rear to a salisbury, upgraded brakes to defender and have broken a diff yet which is a pleasure to drive and brake now.

[Dougal]

Hi Guys,
The reason for me changing to the 2wd centre diff mod was traction problems and spider gear failure. I have a 86 rangie with a supercharged 383 chevy under the bonnet.
Whilst towing my camping trailer the front wheels (33inch) uesd to spin taking off from the lights and coming out of round abouts with using not to much throttle at all ( keeping in mine it produces alot of torque down low). After a while it gets a little annoying.
With the auto and the centre diff mod it has very little back lash and its far easy to drive especially under acceleration which the steering doesn't get loaded up or pull left or right following the road contours

PS: I have upgraded the rear to a salisbury, upgraded brakes to defender and have broken a diff yet which is a pleasure to drive and brake now.

I have the same front tyre traction issues towing. But I could avoid it if I wanted to.:angel:
A BW transfer might be more suitable if that's your main problem. Towing stuff around offroad gets difficult if I only have the choice of 2wd or locked 4wd.

I had shocking backlash, the front diff was the worst. Between swapping the axles to later disco items and the transfer for a higher ratio low km (was around 400-500,000km, now around 80,000km) one I'm pretty happy with how that side of it runs.

[rick130]

I have the same front tyre traction issues towing. But I could avoid it if I wanted to.:angel:

[snip]

As I mentioned earlier, a Quaife ATB centre diff fixes that, juts don't look at the $$$$$ :eek:

[uninformed]

I do more towing than most here and haven't suffered this issue.....but only have a 2.8tgv with 3 inch exhaust

[rick130]

I do more towing than most here and haven't suffered this issue.....but only have a 2.8tgv with 3 inch exhaust

Wheelbase and rear spring rate makes a big difference with weight transfer (pitch and squat) though mate ;)

[Dougal]

I do more towing than most here and haven't suffered this issue.....but only have a 2.8tgv with 3 inch exhaust

Moving to a wetter climate helps.:D

[uninformed]

Wheelbase and rear spring rate makes a big difference with weight transfer (pitch and squat) though mate ;)

Can you explain more on this please?

[rick130]

Can you explain more on this please?




The center of gravity is the fulcrum point through which the vehicle's weight is multiplied by dynamic forces. In particular, the higher the CG point is, the greater the effect of the forces. Reduce the CG height reduces the product of the forces and vehicle weight. The longer the wheelbase and wider the track in relation to the height of the center of gravity, the more resistance the car has to weight transfer. They behave as counteracting lateral levers to the vertical lever of the center of gravity point.


TurnFast! • Weight Transfer (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_weightxfr)

[PAT303]

Living where I live and doing the driving I do I'd never change either of my defenders to two wheel drive.I've just driven from Newman to Cessnock via a very wet center and the handling and grip is what it's all about.I've never had the axle tramping problem either and my Tdi will have it's TC recoed the same way it was made. Pat

[wagoo]

Living where I live and doing the driving I do I'd never change either of my defenders to two wheel drive.I've just driven from Newman to Cessnock via a very wet center and the handling and grip is what it's all about. Pat
Just select 4wd on a selectable 4wd vehicle! What's so difficult about that?
Bill.

[Dougal]

Just select 4wd on a selectable 4wd vehicle! What's so difficult about that?
Bill.

On slow and tight work the selectable 4wd vehicle refuses to turn like it should. On hard surfaces where the traction is still needed (i.e towing heavy loads uphill) selectable 4wd would be chewing up tyres. On even moderately steep loose surfaces the selectable 4wd vehicle digs the road up on every corner.

Fulltime 4wd in these cases turn like they should, have the traction to move loads on hard surfaces without needing to be locked up and don't dig tracks up when cornering.