Type of bolt on RRC front calipers ?

[superquag]

Thought I'd be Very Good and re-pack my front wheel bearings on the Classic... Till I came to removing the calipers. Naturally they're differant, using those odd-looking multi pointed-head bolts.

Whats the correct name for them, and are they a Metric or Imperial-sized abomination ?

I have to keep going as I've invested in the Hub (tube) spanner and some decent circlip pliers... and its done 160K and not been touced...


Help Please !:(

James in Gosnells

[PhilipA]

My 92 has normal 6 point imperial bolts in AFAIR 5/8.
If yours has 12 point bolts then it will be either Imperial or Metric 12 point socket, so just try both and see the best fit. They are quite close in bigger sizes.
If it is a T type bolt , then you have to buy a set Of T sockets which AFAIR are all metric.
Regards Philip A

[p38arover]

I agree with Phillip. Probably just 12-point (double hex) bolts and a standard 12-point socket will fit perfectly.

[superquag]

Thanks Philip,- needed the 'name'. Somehow, "#$%^**" does'nt help...

It turns out that 'T' or Torx is'nt it, but it put me on right track .

Done it again.... would have been cheaper to let a stealer do the job...
$40 for circlips... $18 for Big Tube spanner now $?? for top quality 1/2" 12 point socket, couple of $s for grease, silicon, gloves, rags, Time.....

No wonder Bill Gates is richer than me.:p

[superquag]

Update:-

P38 wins the chocolates... It is a 12 point head, leastways a 12 sided 1/2" socket is a very close & firm fit. - 13mm threatens to round off the points and 12 mm simply can't be forced on.

The lower one is accessable, but the top one is a bit short on working room.

- I'll try for some close up pics to decide if its a Spline Drive or Double Hex, or something else...:mad:

[p38arover]

The ones on my P38A are 12-point. I'd expect the RRC to be the same even thought the callipers are of a completely different design.

[superquag]

Pics here... taken with a cheap camera, and of the untouched/undamaged LH bolts...


They are an exact fit, which is the whole purpose of the "12 point" style... Transmits more torque without damage....

Last pic is from Google images of '12 point bolt' which looks the same as the Classic's.


Thanks for the help ! :D

[p38arover]

Good pix.

If one traces lines across the flats such that the lines cut off intermediate peaks, one can see the hex.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[awabbit6]

... 13mm threatens to round off the points and 12 mm simply can't be forced on ...


That would make it 1/2 inch double hex then ;) (12.7mm)

[Jhonno]

Update:-

P38 wins the chocolates... It is a 12 point head, leastways a 12 sided 1/2" socket is a very close & firm fit. - 13mm threatens to round off the points and 12 mm simply can't be forced on.

The lower one is accessable, but the top one is a bit short on working room.

- I'll try for some close up pics to decide if its a Spline Drive or Double Hex, or something else...:mad:

a 1/2 inch ring spanner does the job admirably.

[superquag]

I won't argue with "HEXed".... :D
Everything touched on this car becomes a 4 hour saga....

When I undid the hub locking nuts...they were'nt tight at all, barely hand-tight. Bearings are clean and free, re-packed the outer and added to the inner as I was'nt keen on disturbing the seal.

-Nice and 'firm' now. No discernable slack when I rock the wheel.

Happier now :D:D:D

[superquag]

Good pix.

If one traces lines across the flats such that the lines cut off intermediate peaks, one can see the hex.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/41875d1324698332-type-bolt-rrc-front-calipers-prof-nat.jpg

Yep. can see that now.

Ron, How do you get the pic to be full-sized and in the body of text, as opposed to the way my pics presented as thumbnails ?

[p38arover]

Yep. can see that now.

Ron, How do you get the pic to be full-sized and in the body of text, as opposed to the way my pics presented as thumbnails ?

Seeing the hex ain't so easy when looking at the bolt itself but it is when looking at your excellent pic.

How did I get a big pic? I cheated. I opened your thumbnail, copied the URL from that pic, and pasted it into my reply.

[Jhonno]

apologies, reread the post, must be getting old.

[400HPONGAS]

Jeez, SuperQuaq,if a couple of easy to get caliper bolts can give you that much Heartache , then god knows what you did to the upper RAILKO mounting bolts that enable you to lift the caliper off without disconnecting Brakelines. and while you were at this repacking thing ,how did you go with pre-load setting on the swivel housing .
What was this repacking of the bearings actually going to achieve ? Was the grease contaminated ? was there the incorrect level of grease? was the grease of the correct type ?.
Next time , just pull the outing bearing,scrape out what you can ,half to 3/4 fill the cavity,put it back together again ,correctly seating ,torquing it up again.
More bearing failures are caused by human interventions ,such as repacking , then all other failure modes put together.Obviously if you find abnonrmalities in tbearing or the lubricant,then a bearing replacement is due ,repacking it is only delaying the inevitable.
It might come as a shock to all that Rolling element bearings do not "Wear" out .
They all follow the failure pattern of "RANDOM" failure.Therefore the probabilty of failure is the same ,whether it be 10 seconds or 1000 years old .

[superquag]

Re-packing bearings was'nt the prime objective, checking/setting the wheel-bearing slop was. - Rocking the wheels was'nt the only pointer to excess run-out...

And yes, it was way too much, plus the pair of locking hub-nuts could be rotated as a pair, with the outer undone by fingers. Not a "Good Look".

Cleaning out & replacing grease was a bonus for the bearings... may as well do it whilst the hub was off, and your suggestion was, incidently, a fair description of how I did it.

Changing the grease is beneficial in my experience, gets rid of the microscopic metal 'grinds' that in turn chew out more of the rollers & outer shell.
- Picked up that gem from my farm days, and talking to Fitters/Engineers at work before I retired.

Checking and cleaning is how I've side-stepped Random bearing failures.... Got'em before they went too far.

[PhilipA]

And yes, it was way too much, plus the pair of locking hub-nuts could be rotated as a pair, with the outer undone by fingers. Not a "Good Look".



On a 93 there should be a locking plate under each of the nuts, which has one flat bent over so that the nuts cannot move. Your post suggest to me there were no locking plates on yours?
The bearing nut should not be tight, as you need only to nip up the tube spanner by hand until you cannot turn any more , spin the hub a few times then back off one flat or half a flat.
If you do not have locking plates please get them and fit them.
Regards Philip A

[superquag]

Oh the locking plate is indeed there... the thing was when I poked a screwdriver in between the plate and nut to lever it away ,

- BOTH nuts/plate rotated as a unit as I pushed/twisted the screwdriver.....:o

Then when I wiped the outer nut ... it turned with finger-pressure only, did'nt need my fancy $17 Hub Wrench for that.

"Is it normal to find such loose locking nuts on a RR wheel hub ?" - (Rhetorical Question, don't bother biting!)

I'm grateful that there was'nt a dangerous amount of slack there.:eek: and glad you all answered my silly question about the bolts...

Unless the Stealer service did them in the first 70k for the Original Owner, they have'nt been done since...as I suspect the PO's mechanic was not LR familiar.

(Original owner, New to 70K, Previous Owner from 70K to c. 140K, Mine since)

Cheers from James in Gosnells

PS, Phil, I like your method... quicker than the double-tensioning ( LR ) technique.

[Tank]

If the nuts turned together, you either have no locking washer, or if there is a locking washer it has broken off the tab that engages in the keyway on the hub tube.
If you put it back together with a locking washer that has no way of locking into the hub tube then you are risking your life. Either get a new locking washer or take it to someone that knows what they're doing. If that wheel come off at speed you could kill someone, Regards Frank.

[superquag]

If the nuts turned together, ...... or if there is a locking washer it has broken off the tab that engages in the keyway on the hub tube.
If you put it back together with a locking washer that has no way of locking into the hub tube then .......

G'day Frank, - think our posts crossed, but to clarify...

The threaded section of my '95 Classic hub has a flat section, and my locking washer has a flattened hole that fits it perfectly. Very close fit. This is what stops the lock-washer - and hence the two Big Nuts from rotating.

Other models may have a machined groove that locates a tab. Does the same job.
Have seen that arrangement before though most of my other cars/trailers etc used the cotter pin arrangement. Some both.

None of my previous wheels have gone missing in action...

Pic is an 'end-on' view of the RH front hub, outer bearing race is removed and we're looking at the inner. Shows the flattened section. Other pic is pinched of eBay.

[400HPONGAS]

superquag , as usual you have it all stuffed up !!
That locking tab as it is , wont do anything unless you bend the tabs over . It is the bending over of the tab that is supposed to lock bearing preload .was yours BENT over?
obviously it must have been !!!Sounds to me that the succession of bad mechanics that have attended your machine have led to its condition .

[Bradtot]

Hello James
:( lock washers bent over like in this pic to stop the nuts from turning

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/239.jpg

Otherwise very dangerous to drive as wheel could come off.
Brad:(

[Tank]

Quote:"BOTH nuts/plate rotated as a unit as I pushed/twisted the screwdriver.....:o"

Doesn't matter whether it is a keyway as I described or a flat, the idea is that the lock washer is held stationary. You fit the adjusting nut against the bearing thrust washer and adjust to the correct tension, then you fit the lock washer and bend over one section of it inwards to hold the adjusting nut in it's correct position. Then you fit the outer lock nut and do it up FT, then you bend the same lock washer outwards to lock the locking nut, so if done right nothing moves. If you can turn both nuts and the locking washer together then you have a NON LOCKING WASHER THAT DOES FA. The lock washer MUST engage with the centre hub tube to locate and stop the lock washer and the nuts coming undone, hope this is clear, Regards Frank.

[400HPONGAS]

Now you will confuse him Bradtot , that picture shows the early model tooth and slot style , his is the later model D-ring . Still , the tab bending is the same at least .

[Bradtot]

Now you will confuse him Bradtot , that picture shows the early model tooth and slot style , his is the later model D-ring . Still , the tab bending is the same at least .


The bending is all I wanted him to see as per Franks description above as well

:)

[superquag]

Hello James
:( lock washers bent over like in this pic to stop the nuts from turning

http://forums.lr4x4.com/uploads/1204569671/gallery_2_473_50629.jpg

Otherwise very dangerous to drive as wheel could come off.
Brad:(

Nice picture. - Thats how I bent the tabs when I put it back together. Correctly, as everyone is so kindly concerned about...

But now the two nuts are tighter against each other, (60Nm outer) sandwiching the locking washer, not 'finger-tight' as the outer was when I disassembled it.

The Big concern was the exact pattern/type/etc of this 12 pointed caliper bolt. Could have been a Triple-square, Spline-Drive or Double-Hex, all have 12 points but slightly differant shaped.. I've never come across these before, only external and internal HEX. - Normal and Allen-heads. -Must have led a sheltered life regarding bolts.... though I do remember square ones!

[Tank]

Superquag, how do you explain this Quote:"BOTH nuts/plate rotated as a unit as I pushed/twisted the screwdriver.....:o"

If you could, as you said, turn the nuts and lockwasher, then our concern was that you didn't have a lockwasher that locates on the hub centre tube, if that is so then the nuts will eventually undo and the wheel will come adrift.
So one last time, DOES THE LOCKWASHER LOCATE ITSELF ON THE CENTRE HUB TUBE OR DOES IT ROTATE AS YOU HAVE STATED. Regards Frank.

[superquag]

Superquag, how do you explain this Quote:"BOTH nuts/plate rotated as a unit as I pushed/twisted the screwdriver.....:o"

If you could, as you said, turn the nuts and lockwasher, then our concern was that you didn't have a lockwasher that locates on the hub centre tube, if that is so then the nuts will eventually undo and the wheel will come adrift.
So one last time, DOES THE LOCKWASHER LOCATE ITSELF ON THE CENTRE HUB TUBE OR DOES IT ROTATE AS YOU HAVE STATED. Regards Frank.

Yes, it does, sort of. Manufacturing tolerances plus the entrails of a goat allow it to rotate a little. If the nuts are TIGHT against it, then the high lateral force at right-angles to the direction of the threads will result in Huge Amounts of Friction which will not allow ANY rotation from a gentle force applied.

Detailed explanation:-

Its my fault, in that I did'nt define the amount of 'Rotation', and that's gotten everyone worried.:o:o:o

Lets take it from the top. And I'm going to use lots of words doing it ! :p

First, I read up Section 54 "Front Axle And Final Drive" RAVE manual, noting torque settings and order of assembley.
Looking at FRONT HUB ASSEMBLEY

Service repair no - 60.25.01.
'Remove'

Step 2 started all this, with my unfamiliarity with the exact nature and correct name of these 12 pointed bolts...

When I came to step 6, "Bend back Lock washer tabs" I inserted a flat screwdriver blade between the nut and the bent washer. Then I started to wriggle & twist it - as you do - to work it deeper....

This twisting action caused the 2 nuts and sandwiched washer to rotate several degrees, to the extent of tolerance allowed for by the "D" hole. It was not a powerful twist, it barely got started when the small rotation happened.

If the 'Lock Nut' had been correctly tightened at manufacture or at a previous servicing, , then there should have been ZERO movement with the amount of force applied.
At this point I exchanged the screwdriver for a chisel and gently tapped the flat away from said nut. As I wiped the nut (counter-clockwise rotation) it proceeded to undo. :eek:

According to the RAVE instructions, I expected this outer nut to be done up to 61Nm. (step 16, "refit") It obviously was not at 61 NM ...I doubt if my fingesr could move SIX Nm.

This WAS the loose nut, (the insane nut bought the car...) It is now a correctly tightened nut. the wheel will not fall off for any reason connected to this or the other nut ("Hub adjusting nut" , J5370M) Today I drove over 20 km on the Powelines Track, and then speed limits on highways back home. Wheel is still there.

Locking washer is bent over in differant directions, over each nut. As specified.


I'm pleased to announce that the bearings are in good nick, re-greased, and correct adjustment has yielded the expected benefit. :D:D:D

And best of all, I'm now conversant with the 12 pointed bolts holding the calipers on. Again.

Cheers, James.