fencing

[muddymech]

we are hopefully going to start fencing off some paddocks, can anyone recommend a good book for erecting post and rail fences.
bought a fence book from tocal but it deals more with post and wire, not quite what im after
ian

[dobbo]

we are hopefully going to start fencing off some paddocks, can anyone recommend a good book for erecting post and rail fences.
bought a fence book from tocal but it deals more with post and wire, not quite what im after
ian

I can put you in touch with a few people with experience, but I don't think they have written any books about it.

[dmdigital]

Somewhere packed away I have an excellent and rather old book on fencing methods including a great section on wire knots. If I can locate it or remember it's name I'll let you know.

[korg20000bc]

Parry... Riposte... Lunge!

[dmdigital]

OK not the one I was thinking of before, but try and find a copy of The Weekly Times Farmers' Handbook. Hasn't been in print for years though.

[abaddonxi]

This bloke wrote a couple of books, I'm pretty sure one of them had a section on fencing. I'm sure someone on here has a copy and could show you. I had a copy but don't know if it was turfed in the last move.

Ron Edwards - Bushcraft 2 - Skills of the Australian Bushman - HB | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ron-Edwards-Bushcraft-2-Skills-of-the-Australian-Bushman-HB-/260922022952)

[mick88]

This bloke wrote a couple of books, I'm pretty sure one of them had a section on fencing. I'm sure someone on here has a copy and could show you. I had a copy but don't know if it was turfed in the last move.

Ron Edwards - Bushcraft 2 - Skills of the Australian Bushman - HB | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ron-Edwards-Bushcraft-2-Skills-of-the-Australian-Bushman-HB-/260922022952)

Yes I was going to suggest this author.
I have a collection of his books and they have a lot of good information on traditional methods of fencing and other aussie bushcrafts.
They are all great reading.

Cheers, Mick.

[Casper]

It's not that hard to work out.

Cut holes in posts the size of rails, dig hole, insert post pack first post in, dig hole for next post, fit rails to first post, insert rails in second post, pack second post in and repeat as many times as needed.

Corner posts may need to be bigger and run a twisted wire from the stay (Corner post) to the first post in the line to lock it all in.

We used to use this technique on our stock yards on the farm.

My grandfather built them originally from yellow box off the farm and we extended them 86 years later and the rest were still in perfect order.

Cheers Casper

[Tank]

Pay a professional, you won't regret it, Regards Frank.

[muddymech]

Pay a professional, you won't regret it, Regards Frank.


unfortunatly thats way out of our price range, but i agree they do a very good job.

[muddymech]

It's not that hard to work out.

Cut holes in posts the size of rails, dig hole, insert post pack first post in, dig hole for next post, fit rails to first post, insert rails in second post, pack second post in and repeat as many times as needed.

Corner posts may need to be bigger and run a twisted wire from the stay (Corner post) to the first post in the line to lock it all in.

We used to use this technique on our stock yards on the farm.

My grandfather built them originally from yellow box off the farm and we extended them 86 years later and the rest were still in perfect order.

Cheers Casper


thanks i pretty much got most of that its the little things i'm not sure of, such as fitting the rails, we are going to bolt them on as easier to replace should they get damaged, but wether to coach bolt all teh way though and if so do i recess the nut at the back so there is less prtusion for a horse to catch on it, how far do i go. or just bolt with a self tapper.
think we have come to the conclusion that rails need two bolts to stop warping.
with a wire strainer do you notch the post to stop the wire slipping?
what about spaceing, intially we were going for 3m gaps but the saw mill suggested 2.7m gaps, im making teh assumption they do rails that length as well, i forgot to ask when i was getting prices.
i'm trying to get my info good before i start as its not a cheap exercise. long term we will have about 400m to fence off but starting small due money time and experiance.
thanks for all your answers.
ian

[abaddonxi]

Try Cullool Sawmill for a quote on the timber, their prices are very good.

Hardwood Timber Suppliers | Flooring | Decking | Fencing | Cladding (http://www.culoulsawmills.com.au/fencing.html)

Make sure you use hot-dipped galvanised fasteners, anything else rusts out too quickly.

If you're doing through-mortises you'll probably want to get a mortising attachment for a chainsaw.

[rick130]

[SNIP]A

If you're doing through-mortises you'll probably want to get a mortising attachment for a chainsaw.

Bore cutting is one of the riskiest things you can undertake with a saw, the risk of kickback is huge if you've never done it before, so anything that can reduce the risk for a novice is good. ;)

[korg20000bc]

Bore cutting is one of the riskiest things you can undertake with a saw, the risk of kickback is huge if you've never done it before, so anything that can reduce the risk for a novice is good. ;)

I saw some horror videos of people getting mangled by doing this. It was 4 Corners or Australian story or something. A farming couple- the wife got caught and the husband found her later and she had to have bot arms amputated. Horrible.

[4x4x2]

ID go with posts and plain wire or cyclone if you want to keep horses or cattle in id go either barb or white sighter wire or even hot wire .
pity you weren't closer id give you hundreds of broken vineyard cca posts.
the offer stands for anyone who wants posts free if you take them away.

[ramblingboy42]

read Dad 'n Dave, they were pretty good fencers, they offered to build the dingo fence for 50 quid and when asked how they were going to do it, dad said well I'll start at one end and Dave here will start at the other. They asked and what if you miss each other? Dad just said well youse'll get two flamin fences for the price of one.

[abaddonxi]

I was thinking something like this -
Snedden's Fencing Products - Shopping - csaw - Mortice Safe Mini Rural_Fencing_Online (http://www.midacmedia.com/cgi-bin/shopping.pl?Source=Rural_Fencing_Online&Code=iBusOP127&returnURL=http://www.ruralfencing.com&Template=sneddens&st=&IN=&exc=&Page=Info&ICode=MSMini)

From here, which might interest you - Australia Axe Chainsaw Fencing Products and Fence Tools Australian Made Products (http://www.ruralfencing.com/index1.shtml)


Ah, and here's the HSC Ag. course - HSC Online - Install, maintain and repair fencing (http://www.hsc.csu.edu.au/primary_ind/prim_ind_240/compulsory/RTC2209A/3100/end_assemblies.htm)


If you are buying dressed or partially dressed timber you might be able to get the timber yard to mortise it for you. Depends on if they have a chain mortising machine - Used Bevan & Edwards Mortiser for sale - UNKNOWN, 39743 (http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/UNKNOWN/39743/)

If your making it out of hardwood they might be reluctant to do it for you. I ended up buying a chain mortiser like the one above.

[dullbird]

]ID go with posts and plain wire or cyclone if you want to keep horses or cattle in id go either barb or white sighter wire or even hot wire .
pity you weren't closer id give you hundreds of broken vineyard cca posts.
the offer stands for anyone who wants posts free if you take them away.not interested in wire at all especially Barb.. its not hard to keep horses in providing you have grass and your not keeping colts and stallions.
I have cut many horses that have been caught in wire fences and its not pretty....the damage barb causes while they struggle is nasty and the plain wire isn't any better.

[Tank]

unfortunatly thats way out of our price range, but i agree they do a very good job.
My next door neighbour priced doing it himself and it worked out cheaper to pay a pro, who had all the equipment, used the timber from the trees he cleared on their property and it was all done in a few days and they had a nice big heap of mulch and firewood, have you priced a pro, Regards Frank. P.S. After reading the rest of the posts I didn't know you were using sawn mill timber, I assumed you had trees on your property you could use for real post and rail fence, i.e. split log timbers, or traditional post and rail.

[dullbird]

Hey tank we do have trees but not enough to cut down and make fencing from :)

The fencing alone is going to cost a couple of grand just to do a small part this is why we cant afford to pay someone to put it in..I would love it to be done by a professional but will be out of our price range for sure

[4x4x2]

The Barb was for cattle sighter or hot wire for horses -we have a mixture of both for ours

[dullbird]

once post and rail goes up a white elec stand off tape will be put up..stop them chewing the wood..:)

[Blknight.aus]

site the fence line first and mark it all out, count them post holes...

If you want to do the marking out and checking in the evening or at night, go buy packs of the kids wrist band glowstick things, and make up a cheapy slide hammer from a bit of long metal rod some washers and a weight. hammer it into the ground, crack and shake a glow tube pull the rod and insert the glow tube.

hire a bobcat with a four in one and a post hole digger or borrow a JCB with the same and get about 10 friends around preferably ones with trailers and hand tools

get the bobcat guy on site about an hour before your friends arrive have him clear the ground with the 4 in one, drill out about 10 post holes and then use the 4in1 to carry the posts and top poles to the setup area. your friends should now arrive and while they start placing poles and top rail you and your mates knock over the first section.

a reasonably equipped and experienced crew can knock about 1Km/H worth of fencing with the limiting factor usually being the running on the bobcat

[rick130]

Lou, have you priced up the plastic poles with 4" wide hot tape at all ?
It comes in black so looks smart and is supposedly UV stabilised for 25 years.
A few studs around here have used it.
Those that have used it have used gal cattle rail diagonally across the corners of the paddocks so the horses can see them in the middle of the night.

The claim to fame is none or greatly reduced injuries with horses.

As Lou said, barbed wire is a no-no with horses, as is any wire.

Horses are a thousand times more fragile than cattle or any other livestock, and the injuries from wire are horrific.

The other thing to possibly consider if using timber post and rail is to hire a tractor with post ram (donger and operator :D)
IMO you get a more stable post, and it speeds up the operation significantly.

[Xtreme]

Lou, have you priced up the plastic poles with 4" wide hot tape at all ?
It comes in black so looks smart and is supposedly UV stabilised for 25 years.
A few studs around here have used it.
Those that have used it have used gal cattle rail diagonally across the corners of the paddocks so the horses can see them in the middle of the night.

The claim to fame is none or greatly reduced injuries with horses.

As Lou said, barbed wire is a no-no with horses, as is any wire.

Horses are a thousand times more fragile than cattle or any other livestock, and the injuries from wire are horrific.

The other thing to possibly consider if using timber post and rail is to hire a tractor with post ram (donger and operator :D)
IMO you get a more stable post, and it speeds up the operation significantly.

Words of wisdom spoken by a man who lives in the horse capital of NSW :D

[richard4u2]

electric , non permanent for future development

[weeds]

never had an issue with barb wire fences when i had my horse in my younger years........

sure where we used to saddle him up in the corner of his paddock the first section of fence going in either direction had timber rails but i think this was more for holding the riding gear, making it easier to climb through the fence and something to sit on, but than again my dad was a stockman back in the 60's so thing have probably changed a bit since since than

i well maintained wire fence should not cause any issues with horses

i could be wrong but unless you use good quality hard wood a timber fence will require more maintenance in the long run

[Xtreme]

.................................................. ...................

i could be wrong but unless you use good quality hard wood a timber fence will require more maintenance in the long run

Any colour will do ............................. as long as it's sump oil black :D

[rick130]

n
[snip]

i well maintained wire fence should not cause any issues with horses


[snip]


Depends on how valuable the animals are to you and how many shares you have invested in Vet clinics.

Wire injuries to horses destroy careers or worse, apart from the expense of treatment and rehabilitation, and vet costs have spiralled out of control over the last decade.

We've always used electric standoffs and double width spacing between paddocks where possible to minimise striking.

[LWB123]

It's not that hard to work out.

Cut holes in posts the size of rails, dig hole, insert post pack first post in, dig hole for next post, fit rails to first post, insert rails in second post, pack second post in and repeat as many times as needed.

Corner posts may need to be bigger and run a twisted wire from the stay (Corner post) to the first post in the line to lock it all in.


This is pretty much how it was done on our farm - only for cleaning up sections of the orginal post and rail fence around the old homestead. Too expensive for anything else, and you usually have to run ringlock or netting around them anyway to keep small things in or out.

To do it properly, ideally you will need an adze (hoe like tool with an sharpened blade) to shape the butt ends of each horizontal rail to fit a neat square hole cut in each vertical post - chain saws can be used, but I feel they make a bit of a mess of it. If the adze is sharp enough it is possible to do it reasonably quickly and with a bit of experience you get quite good at it.

A cheaper alternative that we used mainly for stock yards was to use 'reject' railway sleepers from the uprights and 'roundbacks' for the horizontal rails, either wired on or coachbolted as pairs on the front of each upright. Roundbacks are the side cuts from the logs from which the sleepers are cut - have a round profile on one side which was the edge of the log and a flat profile on the other which is where the argon saw or whatever cut the block from which the sleepers are eventually cut. The sleepers were those that the railway inspectors rejected for various reasons - often one side not quite straight - and would otherwise be cut up for firewood.

Cheers,

[weeds]

Depends on how valuable the animals are to you and how many shares you have invested in Vet clinics.

Wire injuries to horses destroy careers or worse, apart from the expense of treatment and rehabilitation, and vet costs have spiralled out of control over the last decade.

We've always used electric standoffs and double width spacing between paddocks where possible to minimise striking.

fair enough, each to there own. I did however value my horse very highly and we had no issues with the type of fencing we provided. never needed to call a vet in the 10 years we owned him.....

i will have to play more attention on my drive out to my mates cattle/dairy farm this weekend to see how horses are fenced in in this part of the world

having a nice timber fence all painted white would be nice but out of reach for most

[rick130]

Kelvin, dedicated horse fencing is hardly ever plain wire and never barb, mostly netting and electric tape, (which is nearly as dangerous as wire) just to keep the buggers away from the fences and each other.

Of course cattle properties just use their normal cattle fencing, etc. but SWMBO's business was performance horses for thirty years and with the years of training put into your own plus customers horses on agistment for training you just don't take any risks.

All the Thoroughbred studs around here are the same, (we share a fenceline with one of the bigger ones) and yes the visible, roadside fences are mostly for show, (the joke around here is that all the strainer sized coastal Gum trees ended up as fence posts in the Upper Hunter) but the internal fencing away from the public eye are still all safety first as horses cut up so much more easily than cattle. (We used to run SWMBO's parents cattle property too)

Prevention is much cheaper than a vet.

[weeds]

Kelvin, dedicated horse fencing is hardly ever plain wire and never barb, mostly netting and electric tape, (which is nearly as dangerous as wire) just to keep the buggers away from the fences and each other.

Of course cattle properties just use their normal cattle fencing, etc. but SWMBO's business was performance horses for thirty years and with the years of training put into your own plus customers horses on agistment for training you just don't take any risks.

All the Thoroughbred studs around here are the same, (we share a fenceline with one of the bigger ones) and yes the visible, roadside fences are mostly for show, (the joke around here is that all the strainer sized coastal Gum trees ended up as fence posts in the Upper Hunter) but the internal fencing away from the public eye are still all safety first as horses cut up so much more easily than cattle. (We used to run SWMBO's parents cattle property too)

Prevention is much cheaper than a vet.

no worries, as a teenager back in that 80's my mates had similar basic fencing to what we had.........i remember it taking for ever to save up enough money to muy my own horse, just glad my grandfather was a saddle maker, only had to clean his shop windows, sweep the floors etc in return for riding gear

[dullbird]

Lou, have you priced up the plastic poles with 4" wide hot tape at all ?
It comes in black so looks smart and is supposedly UV stabilised for 25 years.
A few studs around here have used it.
Those that have used it have used gal cattle rail diagonally across the corners of the paddocks so the horses can see them in the middle of the night.

The claim to fame is none or greatly reduced injuries with horses.

As Lou said, barbed wire is a no-no with horses, as is any wire.

Horses are a thousand times more fragile than cattle or any other livestock, and the injuries from wire are horrific.

The other thing to possibly consider if using timber post and rail is to hire a tractor with post ram (donger and operator :D)
IMO you get a more stable post, and it speeds up the operation significantly.

Hey Rick..

Yep looked and looked..I really like the look of the PVC fencing in black (not interested in texas white post and rail) but cost wise just way out of my league almost double of what normal post and rail is a linear meter is:(

I also looked in to Zappa rail the wide stuff which would of been cheaper and even though has a wire inside (thats how you tension) has been known to minimises injury by repelling the horse on impact this stuff also looks just like post and rail when up, and of course can be electrified. My biggest concern with this is if a horse did get stuck or what ever in it unless close enough to slacken the tension off on the fence you would need to cut it rendering the fence useless until you acquired another bracket to enable you to tension the fence in to seperate parts (assuming you have only cut one of the 2/3 rails that were strung) also causing you not to be able to use it as electric.

Weeds even though the wood is expensive I don't think it will rot in our time here as long as it is maintained..and should a rail get broken its a simple case of unbolt and bolt a new one in.

Have you had any experience with the zappa rail at all Rick? It did work out I think the most cost effective way to fence over 100meteres

[rick130]

No, sorry Lou.

We've tossed around so many options and the one we liked the most was gal steel RHS posts and cattle rail, just for the extended life and lack of upkeep, (and paint it black eventually) but the price of steel has gone through the roof.....

Current fencing for our horses is treated pine posts with five strand plain wire with two hot ones and Vickie hates it.

We'll be doing some fencing here in autumn as I've convinced her that I can cut the trees and then mill the timber in the neighbours Lucas mill.

The plan is to run a post and top rail with netting, as she's owed quite a few hours labour by one of the local semi-retired fencers as a contra for lessons.

After reading what I just wrote I can't believe I even suggested it :eek:

I did have a cunning plan if we were to use split posts and wire.

Invite some of these blokes around for a training day :D
Kendal Show.. 2010 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/JVvnzchHWko)

[dullbird]

Somehow I don't think that first bloke needs training, unless of course you mean exchanging horsey rides for wood hahahahah :D

[dullbird]

OK so fences are up..just need one or two rails to go up on the short side of the gate....

Wow it is not as easy as simply dig a hole and drop in a post AT ALL especially when you have never done ANY fencing before in your life!!.

Anyway we had a crack they are reasonably straight..well as straight as we could get them with the wood that was delivered:mad:..

4 posts that were delivered were warped when we opened them the next morning one of which had bannana'd so badly it was unusable to put a meter long spirit level on gave a gap over 2 inches in the middle. would of made a nice bridge over a small pond though:D

The rails were disappointing too had a number of rails that were split from small amount up to about a foot and a half in to the rail..some were also bannana'd at the end making it very difficult to get them level. all of them were bowed in the middle but I guess that is to be expected from a 5.6 meter rail.

its not the best fence in the world in the sense of strength a number of holes we could simply dig no further due to rock (a lot we managed to dig out but some was just tooo big we think we may of also caught the corner of the septic (not where we though it was as its a soak away) so waiting to see if that suddenly becomes a very expensive fence) so some posts are really hard in to the ground and some have a little movement in them which is not good..however I hope it will be ok especially with the stand off electric which will keep the horses from leaning on it.

heres a few pics.. the next question is What to treat it with???? a friend has just done hers with a linseed oil and turpentine mix..Big mistake horses like and can have linseed oil and now they are chewing the bejesus out of her rails.:D still they will have nice dark shiney coats:p..

we have treated pine posts with hard wood rails


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/678.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/679.jpg

Finished result of this fence

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/680.jpg

another one of the fences

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/681.jpg

and again finished result

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/682.jpg

we still have to hang the gates and cut the tops of the posts so they are all level....I assume this is just done with a chainsaw.:)
So we have 3 new fences which gives us 2 usuable paddocks..once I can save enough money again we need to start embarking on the 100M+ fences..I guess this was a good tester to see if we could actually do it.

for anyone that is wondering I simply couldn't afford the third rail..we were worried about how it was going to look but I think it looks OK..I think that is only because we had such a deep rail though

[roverrescue]

Sorry off topic

"Bore cutting is one of the riskiest things you can undertake with a saw,"

You learn something new everynight on AULRO - I always thought the riskiest thing you could do with a saw was up a 30ft tree after a cyclone in your wife beater and stubbies, bourbie in one hand, 14" Stihl in the other taking it to the burdekin plum that decided to have a lie down on the roof of the house... oh well I must make sure to keep away from this risky bore cutting procedure. ;)

Steve

[rick130]

Sorry off topic

"Bore cutting is one of the riskiest things you can undertake with a saw,"

You learn something new everynight on AULRO - I always thought the riskiest thing you could do with a saw was up a 30ft tree after a cyclone in your wife beater and stubbies, bourbie in one hand, 14" Stihl in the other taking it to the burdekin plum that decided to have a lie down on the roof of the house... oh well I must make sure to keep away from this risky bore cutting procedure. ;)

Steve

But a 14" Stihl isn't a saw Steve :p (unless it's a 200T ;) )

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I'll see your windy drinky climb and raise you juggling 6 42" bar chainsaws with the throttles jammed on while you stand on your head with legs akimbo!! :p


Using Capitals, the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse or helping your uncle jack off a horse...

[dullbird]

Ok so does anyone have any comments on what best to protect the fence with?

[rick130]

Lou, yes, you trim the posts with a saw.

As to what to paint/coat with :confused:

The studs tend to paint them around these parts, the average people just leave them natural, but some sort of paint does give you a longer life.

Actually, one of the small stud/agistment owners setup a fence painting business for the off season a couple of years ago, but I have no idea what Fred uses.

[roverrescue]

Your right rick, the 14" stihl wasnt a saw... it became way to still to be useful so I turfed it and bought one of those piece of junk chingaling Talons. Which despite my finest abuseful efforts running on anything from straight old petrol to at a guess 5 to 1 with boat oil just wont bloody die. And I still look good in a wife beater and stubbies. ;)

Sorry for the interuption Lou, that is one fine fence you have built to keep the donkeys.
I like the neighbours donkey, Bella eats the grass and means I dont have to mow so often.

Return to your usual programming now

S

[33chinacars]

The best thing to prolong the life of timber fences is creosote. Sump oil can be use in its place. But both a bit messy till it soaks into timber.

Gary

[DeanoH]

The best thing to prolong the life of timber fences is creosote. Sump oil can be use in its place. But both a bit messy till it soaks into timber.
Gary

A 50/50 mixture of creosote and sump oil gives a pretty good result. The last 20 litre drum of creosote I bought was a couple of years ago was $60+ so it can be a bit expensive to use pure creosote wheras sump oil is free.
Creo is brownish/black. If you want to 'spiff' it up a bit you could use auto trans fluid instead for a reddish/black/brown result, used diesel oil for a real black result or used LPG engine oil (honey colour) for adifferent result. Another aproach is to mix creo, sump oil and coloured ochre (used to colour concrete) for your desired result.
Pay particular attention to the end grain when you coat your timber, especially the tops of the posts and particularly if there are any with sap wood.
Liquid creo will burn your skin so it's real important to cover up and wear eye protection and gloves when working with it. It's OK once it's on and your initial coat may look a bit streaky. Leave it a couple of days to soak in, apply a second coat and it will come up a million bucks.

Deano:)

[dullbird]

I didn't think you could buy creosote anymore?? I thought it was illegal.

I have plenty of sump oil..was wondering about mixing turpentine with it to for the ants and to thin it out a bit make it a little easier to absorb..

[woody]

I didn't think you could buy creosote anymore?? I thought it was illegal.

I have plenty of sump oil..was wondering about mixing turpentine with it to for the ants and to thin it out a bit make it a little easier to absorb..

Creosote and sump oil is one of the best treatments out there, the reason it is so good is that it contaminates the soil around the posts. The local council or greenies may take offense to it's use. But what they don't know won't hurt them.

We used it to treat the cattle yards until DPI started to say that it shows up in the cattle when tested for contamination. We had to pull them down and erect steel yards.

Copper Napthenate is also good if you can get hold of it, but most paint suppliers don't handle it any more.

woody

[dullbird]

so do you reckon I would be oK to thin it down a bit with turps? it would make the oil go a lot further I reckon...although something tells me if I need oil a sheer shout out on here for anyone that has any left in there engine from it leaking out might get me some hahahahah

[isuzurover]

Metal caps on top of the posts will help prolong their life.

Linseed oil is also good, and less toxic than some other options.

[wrinklearthur]

I saw some horror videos of people getting mangled by doing this. It was 4 Corners or Australian story or something. A farming couple- the wife got caught and the husband found her later and she had to have bot arms amputated. Horrible.

I saw that program, the machine was a tractor PTO driven, post hole digger. It was not clear or I have forgotten! whether she was caught by the auger or the PTO shaft, a truly sad story about that couple.

Doing It Yourself without seeing it done first is -----dangerous-----!!!! I don't know what to suggest other than try and find someone who has done this work before, then get them to give you a hand to get started, they should be able to point out any dangerous practises before a problem occurs.

I hold a chain saw operators licence, but I even won't try and pass on this information here. That info is best left to an accredited instructor teaching in a properly organised course, as they can spot any short coming the student may have and correct them .
.

[woody]

so do you reckon I would be oK to thin it down a bit with turps? it would make the oil go a lot further I reckon...although something tells me if I need oil a sheer shout out on here for anyone that has any left in there engine from it leaking out might get me some hahahahah

we found that mixing creosote with with used diesel engine oil was a good mix for penetrating ironbark posts. We also had a habit of putting the old oil filters on top of the post so that any oil would soak into the top. Quite a funny sight seeing all these posts with little hats on until you added up the cost of oil filters over the years.

woody

[Beckford]

we are hopefully going to start fencing off some paddocks, can anyone recommend a good book for erecting post and rail fences.
bought a fence book from tocal but it deals more with post and wire, not quite what im after
ian

Probably a bit late. Two good books I have are;

Fencing - NSW Agriculture Home Study Program Land Management Series - Jennifer Laffan, Tocal. (excellent book on wire fencing) Probably the one you already have?

Horse keeping on a Small Acreage - Cherry Hill (American, but has good ideas)


I use a mixture of sump oil, creosote (until I run out) and stud black (use the no-name brand).

If you need to do any wire fences in the future, make sure you use a white sighter wire and plain wire (not high tensile or barbed).

Looks like you have done a really good job, which is worth it as horses are really tough on fences.

[dullbird]

we found that mixing creosote with with used diesel engine oil was a good mix for penetrating ironbark posts. We also had a habit of putting the old oil filters on top of the post so that any oil would soak into the top. Quite a funny sight seeing all these posts with little hats on until you added up the cost of oil filters over the years.

woody

So can I confirm is creosote still available to buy? or are you all talking about cresosote derivatives and just using creosote as a generic term.

[DeanoH]

So can I confirm is creosote still available to buy? ...........................

Just rang a mate who works at the local (rural) produce store. He tells me that creosote is definitely available (in Victoria), no restrictions and costs about $90-$100 per 20 litre drum. Also available in 200 litre drums.

Deano:)

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i should be able to get you sump oil......but it'll be mixed oils....
prob get you heaps more than you'll need.......

[dullbird]

i should be able to get you sump oil......but it'll be mixed oils....
prob get you heaps more than you'll need.......


I know someone else that wants it to Tony..so I may be in touch...what other oils are mixed do you know? just trans and that

[dullbird]

Ok so went to CRT and was told they have not sold creosote for years only the pretend creosote which is massively expensive.....so I guess its not available in NSW although I cant find anything that states its band!

anyone coming up from Gippsland :angel:

[isuzurover]

Ok so went to CRT and was told they have not sold creosote for years only the pretend creosote which is massively expensive.....so I guess its not available in NSW although I cant find anything that states its band!

anyone coming up from Gippsland :angel:



Preservative Treatments - Creosote

The use of creosote in Australia is restricted to railway sleepers, piles and other heavy engineering applications due to the odour and surface condition of treated timber. Treatment of these products is by a vacuum/pressure impregnation process employing heat.

Pigment Emulsified Creosote (PEC) is a cleaner alternative to creosote as "bleed through" has been considerably reduced.

Timber Building in Australia (http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tbia/view_article.asp?articleID=259)


I still remember seeing a creek full of fish poisoned because a bridge had been painted in creosote.

I find it interesting that you are very concerned about reducing the risk of injury to your horses, yet you would be happy to slowly poison them and/or give them cancer???

[dullbird]

they dont like the taste of cresote so they don't eat it (which is why I was asking after it in the first place)..there for they dont get poisoned and they wont get cancer. Probably moree likely to get cancer from the cars driving up and down my road

Even so I will have an electric fence to stop them from chewing

As if I WOULD BE HAPPY!!! geez sometimes some people

[isuzurover]

they dont like the taste of cresote so they don't eat it..there for they dont get poisoned and they wont get cancer. Probably moree likely to get cancer from the cars driving up and down my road


Just because they aren't chewing the timber doesn't mean they won't get a high dose of PAHs (the main carcinogens in creosote) by bioaccumulation in the soil or plants surrounding the fence.

e.g....

Bioaccumulation of PAHs from creosote-contaminated sediment in a laboratory-exposed freshwater oligochaete, Lumbriculus variegatus.
by Tarja Hyötyläinen, Aimo Oikari
Medicine › Pharmacology Papers

Overview
Related research

Chemosphere (2004)
Volume: 57, Issue: 2, Pages: 159-164

PubMed: 15294439

Available from National Center for Biotechnology Information (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
or
Abstract

The oligochaete, Lumbriculus variegatus, was used for a bioaccumulation assay in the creosote-contaminated sediment of Lake Jämsänvesi in a 28-day experiment. The PAH concentrations of the whole body tissue of worms, sediments and water samples were determinated by GC-MS. Chemical analyses showed that benzo(k)fluoranthene, anthracene and fluorene were the main PAH compounds present in the tissue of oligochaetes, just as in the sediment. The biota-sediment accumulation factors (BSAFs) of the individual PAHs varied from 1.2 to 5.7. It is concluded that oligochaetes have a marked ability to accumulate and retain PAHs from creosote-contaminated sediment.


Sorry if what I said came across as harsh, however I was trying to point out that you have put a lot of thought into the design and construction of the fence, but seem happy to slap on any toxic chemical. Btw - the chemical dose they get from coating the fence in diesel oil could potentially be higher than any roadway exposure...

[dullbird]

So what else do you suggest? because if I put linseed oil on its like inviting them over for a fence chewing party horse like linseed oil. you can actually feed it to them.

I do know of people that have used creosote for years and have never had a horse die of poisoning

Still if you have any other alternatives I'm all ears.

As for the road way exposure I'm only 150meters away from a rail way line that runs steam trains almost every weekend they run on coal and wood...and engulf our yard with smoke some days when the wind is right, I think oil on the fence would be only a small worry in this case along with all the other things around my place if we are talking carcinogens and chemical build up.

[isuzurover]

As for the road way exposure I'm only 150meters away from a rail way line that runs steam trains almost every weekend they run on coal and wood...and engulf our yard with smoke some days when the wind is right, I think oil on the fence would be only a small worry in this case along with all the other things around my place if we are talking carcinogens and chemical build up.

OK, in that case you are probably right :D

Burning coal emits more radiation (in the form of radon gas) than nuclear power... Not to mention the sulphur.

Paint is probably the best compromise between environmental/toxicology and fence longevity considerations... However may not be the cheapest.

[dullbird]

I had a feeling you would say paint.my only thing with Paint is..its expensive like you said its seriously labour intensive, and from my experience does not stop horses having a go at yeah fences and I do like the look of the wood too, not that that has much sway

*sigh* bloody horses...this horse is really expensive and I haven't even bought it yet :D

[Alex 110]

What Casper says puts it in a nutshell. I've built a lot, and unless you go the easy way & bolt the rails to the side of the post, that's how its done. As a professional I'm out of your price range, but I'm happy to give advice on the forum.
Cheers,
Alex

[dullbird]

Alex thanks but all rails are bolted..it might not be the "Right way" but it was the only way for us, being a frist fence we have ever done were're not good enough to go notching etc....

unfortunately the rails were quite warped which was disappointing we had to put to of them up with a hi lift jack they were so bad.

[isuzurover]

Alex thanks but all rails are bolted..it might not be the "Right way" but it was the only way for us, being a frist fence we have ever done were're not good enough to go notching etc....

unfortunately the rails were quite warped which was disappointing we had to put to of them up with a hi lift jack they were so bad.

The fence looks great, and is more than straight enough (the horses won't care ;) ).

Most wood is sold green these days. Wait and see what happens when it dries out fully... We have a CCA treated post we used on our deck that twisted almost 45o at the top - that bugger was straight when we putit up!!!

Another option...
What's New | Diggers 'Eco' sets new pace in timber protection... | Recochem - Australia (http://www.recochem.com.au/index.php/whats_new/recochem_develops_paint_thinner_with_the_greener_g ood_in_mind/)

However the base of the posts will probably rot first. Did you treat them with anything before they went into the ground?

If you are looking for a cheap/free option, old/used gear oil/ep90 should work and be far less toxic than used engine oil as it won't have all the combustion by-products and soot.

[dullbird]

no we didn't treat the wood before it went in we thought it would be OK being CCA treated...we did put blue metal dust in the whole to help with drainage and we have VERY sandy soil so does drain well. and was hoping what ever oil we put oon will eventually seep down to the base by reapplying to the top of the post..it seemed to work on the 20year old posts that make our garden fence as they were really starting to rot away and they have a small lease of life now probably all be it a short one as they were fairly well gone by the time we got to them

we will certainly treat the bases of the long fence when we do it..that was part of the reason this thread was started as we had no idea...as someone said in here "its easy dig a hole put a post in and fill a hole"

thats all well and good but it was all this sort of stuff of treating the bottoms and stuff that we didn't know about, along with spacing and all that Jazz.

When we said we had no idea we really had no idea.

I'm pleased we have done the smaller ones first kind of like a tester..because if posts rot out then its less to change. 24 posts in all did these two paddocks so not huge.

Perhaps gear/transmission oil would be a good compromise especially if your saying its less toxic (someone else did recommend that in the thread as they said it gives the fence a nice honey/redish look to the fence.....we don't have any of that though so would have to have a chat with a few garages to see if I could get some off them.

[wrinklearthur]

we did put blue metal dust in the hole to help with drainage and we have VERY sandy soil so does drain well.

Hi Dullbird

What rots wood in sandy soil is fungi, see if you can get blue stone crystals ( copper sulphate ) and put that around your posts. its inexpensive and doesn't harm the environment.
.

[dullbird]

in the hole or just around the hole?

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Dullbird

Copper sulphate is water soluble, so round the top close to the side of the post in my opinion would do the job, as for amounts, a bit of suck it and see applies, as soil does vary a bit with its chemical makeup and pH levels.
.

[dullbird]

sorry for being dumb just wanting clarification,

above the soil line close to the sides of the post..your saying its water soluble so does that mean once it rains it will then seep in to the ground and further protect? or just wash away and will need reapplication

or did you mean close to the sides of the post just beneath the soil line

[wrinklearthur]

once it rains it will then seep in to the ground and further protect

Try and get it mixed in with the last of the soil in the top of the hole.

Grote Reber told me about using this, as he used this method to protect his poles in his aerial array, used in one of his Radio Astronomy experiments at Dennistoun, Bothwell, Tasmania.
Queen Victoria Museum & Art Gallery - Grote Reber Medal (http://www.qvmag.tas.gov.au/?articleID=539)

About Grote Reber


Grote Reber in Bothwell in 1995
Martin George, QVMAG