Coupling for powered trailers

[roverrescue]

Just wondering if anyone would be so kind as to put up a few pics or links or an explanation of how LR went about their PTO powered trailer couplings on FC101.

I have seen pics but were all from a distance and just wanting to understand the finer mechanics of it all...

I am thinking outside the square at the moment.

Regards,

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The drive for the Rubery-Owen trailer was effectively a PTO shaft (same as on a tractor) in the centre of a coupling that was a tube that was secured by a single row Morse chain.

http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/Mil/LandRover/FC101/PiCs37/prot.trlrBar02.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/1236.jpg

http://www.fourfold.org/LR_FAQ/FC/101fc-01.jpg

The works of the drive were in the LT95 transfer box, and used the unique drive design to power the trailer in both ranges.

IMHO the system was effectively a failure, while it powered the trailer in soft terrain the trailer could sometimes push the tow vehicle into a jackknife position.

There was also a Scottorn Bushmaster version of the Land Rover powered trailer.

[roverrescue]

Thanks muchly indeed...
Not how i would have nutted it out.

Hmmm, time to keep pondering

S

[101RRS]

You do realise the concept was a dismal failure and never got past the prototype stage - the system wrecked a couple of 101s when the trailer at certain angles tipped the 101 over.

A couple of pics posted by a AULRO member some time ago.

Garry

[goingbush]

Ive often thought of powering my camper trailer wheels via hydraulics, with free wheeling hubs when not required

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You do realise the concept was a dismal failure and never got past the prototype stage - the system wrecked a couple of 101s when the trailer at certain angles tipped the 101 over.
...What, a Land Rover rolling over? :o

How come they considered it a failure? Rollovers are SOP for Land Rovers. :twisted: :D

[bee utey]

Even blind Freddy could see how a 1:1 drive to the trailer axle would result in tail happy driving in a sharp corner! The trailer runs a smaller arc in the corner than either the front or rear axle.

It might work with some kind of hydraulic or electric drive with a valve/brake light switch on a hydraulic brake coupling, to prevent any "push" from the trailer.

[isuzurover]

Steve, a few years back at US Top(?) truck challenge, there was a suzuki samurai (sierra) with a powered trailer. It went quite well in all tests (on and off road). I think I have the mag at home, will see if I can dig it out.

Edit - a quick google:

Tim Hardy:

In 1995, Tim Hardy wowed judges and competitors alike with his '87 Samurai and matching trailer during the Top Truck Challenge. Tim's Samurai made events like the Tank Trap and Mud Pit look easy, even with a stock motor and a strange amalgam of Sidekick, Ford, and Subaru (!) drivetrain parts.

As far as Samurai builders go, it's tough to top Tim. Although the motor remains stock, Tim built his own 4.6:1 Rock Lobster transfer case and unique 3:1 underdrive that combined with the 5.12:1 axle gears to give him 90:1 gearing. Now, to the naked eye, the axles on Tim's ride seem like stock Suzi parts. However, in an effort to create the ultimate in durability, Tim used everything from Mustang 5.0 axleshafts and Subaru Birfields to (and we're not making this up) his own cable locker for both diffs to build his axles. At the Engineering judging, the TTC judges marveled at Tim's front-wheel center caps that locked his hubs with one twist. They're also waterproof. To get an idea of how meticulous Tim is with his buildups, consider that his front-axle skidplate is 53 pieces of aluminum welded together and polished on both sides. A spring-over using a combination of Samurai springs and Nitro Cell shocks provide elevation for the 35-inch Yoko Mud Diggers. Just in case you're wondering, Tim towed that trailer (equipped with hydraulic disc brakes) through every event at TTC that year and ended up coming in Second Place overall.

Tim as been a staple of TTC ever since and was Head Judge for 2005.

Tim also participated in the 2006 4Wheel and Off-Road Magazine Ultimate Adventure.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/1234.jpg

[101 Ron]

The internet can be a dangerous thing to the truth.
There was one mention of the trailer could cause the 101 tow vehicle to roll if if was on hard lock and on a leaning sideways angle etc.
The facts are.
The drive was disengageable and the trailer could be reverted to a normal trailer.
Many of these trailers done serious work without trouble...ie the one which is in Aust was normally loaded and did its work with a tour company in central Aust.
Another went across the Shahara Desert, while one trailer was abandant for various reasons, the issuse with them in this roll was driveline vibs, as the trailer drive was in continous use with overloaded vehicles and sand.
I can only see the trailer drive as being a good thing.......just use it when needed.
Price and need was the killer of this system after the bugs were worked out of it.
The complication , to extra maintance, to purchase price , to the amount of times the trailer drive could be used to advantage canned the system.
The drive coupling on the rear of the was in fact very different to a tractor PTO ...splines very short, larger dia ect.
A early 101 driven trailer set up used a normal trailer lunnette and pintle with a tractor spline coupling and universals off to one side and under the pintle........it worked too, but it was not soldier proof in the fact too much trailer and vehicle ( jack knife)could break the coupling........yet one survives still in Africa.
If I had a no 5 aust trailer, 101 rear axle with wheels and a perentie 6x6 drive PTO I would look into making a copy cat system using a tractor PTO splines and coupling

[wagoo]

Ben, I am reasonably certain that Samurais trailer wasn't powered. I remember the story on the TTC event back then, and no mention was made of the trailer being powered, nor is there mention of it in the Google text you posted. There were other photos of the rig in the magazine articles, and there wasn't any evidence of a diff or other type of drive components on the trailer axle.

The 101s trailer concentric drive and tow coupling appears easy enough to fabricate, and the transfercase PTO if not available through military surplus auctions can be quite easily made up with bits from a scrap LT95 t/case.
However, with mechanical drive, the 60 degree maximum articulation limit between trailer and vehicle is where I have reservations for the type of terrain I would use such an outfit in. A narrow gully or ravine with 30 degree banks either side will reach that limit, and what breaks or bends if the angles are a little steeper? Could the driveline vibrations Ron mentioned on the Sahara outfit have been caused by exceeding the angular limit?
Bill.

[Blknight.aus]

why not just bolt a series diff in under the trailer and then direct couple a DC motor to the flange wire it up so that when you need the push it can draw from a bank of high discharge batteries and when you dont its either regenning or more simply charging from the alternator?

[wagoo]

why not just bolt a series diff in under the trailer and then direct couple a DC motor to the flange wire it up so that when you need the push it can draw from a bank of high discharge batteries and when you dont its either regenning or more simply charging from the alternator?

Yes, I guess that matching gear ratios isn't all that critical for the rare occasion that drive assist from the trailer is needed.
As an example. When I toured Vietnam a few years ago we passed through a province of around 20km radius where almost every vehicle was a grey Fergy sized 2wd tractor hitched up to a powered trailer, that consisted of an old truck with the cab, front axle and engine removed. Just the gearbox, propshaft and rear axle remaining. The front of the chassis rails were bent inwards to form the drawbar and a driveshaft from the tractors PTO coupled to the input shaft of the old truck gearbox.
It would be unlikely that any of the old trucks gear ratios matched that of the tractor, but any assist from the trailer was obviously better than a dead weight in the swampy terrain in that province.
Bill.

[Blknight.aus]

actually with an electric drive it doesnt matter because theres no mechanical coupling as the combination picks up speed the torque from the electric motor falls off, but that wasnt the key reason I suggested a series axle.

series axles are setup for leaf spring suspension and with the 4.7:1 ratio would give better initial gear reduction for the electric drive system.

[clubagreenie]

Thinking about this, I first saw the Owens system in a book (LR workhorse of the world, which I just ordered a "New" copy of from amazon).

In todays systems I can imagine you could hook it up with the TC/ABS systems to engage/disengage drive as it received feedback from the tow vehicles systems. Just don't know what you'd use to couple the drive system engagement.

[123rover50]

why not just bolt a series diff in under the trailer and then direct couple a DC motor to the flange wire it up so that when you need the push it can draw from a bank of high discharge batteries and when you dont its either regenning or more simply charging from the alternator?

There was a stretched 6 wheel Rangie for sale in Gympie a couple of years ago with that system. He said it worked well up the beach.

[wagoo]

Something to make the 101 purists throw up.:)
If one was to convert the rear suspension to coils, move the rear crossmember forward to just behind the rear axle, shorten the drawbar of the powered trailer so that the wheels were much closer to the rear wheels of the 101, and restricted trailer articulation to just roll and pitch but not yaw,
would it approach this kind of mobility? http://www.unusuallocomotion.com/pages/more-documentation/6x6-wheeled-articulated-vehicles-medium.html Click on photos to enlarge.

bill.

[isuzurover]

Ben, I am reasonably certain that Samurais trailer wasn't powered. I remember the story on the TTC event back then, and no mention was made of the trailer being powered, nor is there mention of it in the Google text you posted. There were other photos of the rig in the magazine articles, and there wasn't any evidence of a diff or other type of drive components on the trailer axle.


Bill - you may be right. I have (unfortunately) thrown out the mag during a cleanup, and I can't find anything conclusive either way - however from the pic it doesn't look like the Samurai has an extra drive shaft for the trailer...

[roverrescue]

Thanks all for your responses... Its all on the drawing board in an effort to build an offroad boat trailer that will weight up over the tonne - and need to get through soft sand mud and slop. No real need to be engaged except for short nasty sections that are generally straight.

Dave,
Series track is too narrow and would need to be widened... also wouldnt a series diff be geared too high for an electric input? I was thinking even a rover 3.58 would mean an electric motor free spinning at 2000rpm would be too tall a gearing. 4.7 requires more torque not less than 3.58 does it not?

I agree that electric has its benefits. Weight is a negative but the lack of coupling linkages is a positive. Any batteries used to power the trailer can be cross utilized to power the boats electric motor once fishing???? I would reckon a 12V winch motor would likely be useable source of power.

Hmmm, more thinking to be done

S

[isuzurover]

...4.7 requires more torque not less than 3.58 does it not?


No, lower (numerically higher) gear ratio requires less effort to turn it.

How about hydraulic Steve? For short-term use on straight sections you could maybe even tap the PAS pump. Only weight on the trailer will be a small hydraulic motor + hydro lines...

You could even use hydro wheel motors to have independant operation!

Hydro components would probably be much better at holding up to water/mud/salt etc...

[roverrescue]

But Ben, when Im on a pushie, if I have the chain on the little cog at the pedals (think pinion) and big cog at the back (think crown) its bloody hard to push the pedals... dosnt a 4.7 diff mean the crown has 4.7times the teeth of the pinion?

I had thought hydraulic... I did like the thought of hydro wheel motors too BUT also needs too quickly and easily free wheel. Half shafts and free wheeling hubs are cheap and easy to come by.

Any ideas on a source for hydraulic motors? Especially wheel motors? Are ag implemet motors going to be a starting point?

There are lots of powering possibilities. Just pondering the best/easiest/ghettofab capable path of least resistance.

Part of me thinks I should start building the trailer and then incorporate drive at a later date BUT if there is some vital component like a driveshaft that needs to be incorporated it makes sense to plan for that.

[isuzurover]

But Ben, when Im on a pushie, if I have the chain on the little cog at the pedals (think pinion) and big cog at the back (think crown) its bloody hard to push the pedals... dosnt a 4.7 diff mean the crown has 4.7times the teeth of the pinion?

I had thought hydraulic... I did like the thought of hydro wheel motors too BUT also needs too quickly and easily free wheel. Half shafts and free wheeling hubs are cheap and easy to come by.

Any ideas on a source for hydraulic motors? Especially wheel motors? Are ag implemet motors going to be a starting point?

There are lots of powering possibilities. Just pondering the best/easiest/ghettofab capable path of least resistance.

Part of me thinks I should start building the trailer and then incorporate drive at a later date BUT if there is some vital component like a driveshaft that needs to be incorporated it makes sense to plan for that.

Little cog (chainring) on the front and big cog on the groupset at the back is a LOT easier to turn than vice versa. You have to pedal a lot faster, but the effort required to commence movement is a lot less.

Just like it is much easier for the engine to move a car in first than 5th.

4.7: 1, you are right, a series diff has 10 pinion teeth and 47 CW teeth. So 4.7 turns of the pinion for one turn of the axle.

Bush65 is the best person to ask about hydraulic motors. However any ag stuff is a good place to start. No reason you can't have a wheel motor and a FWH grafted together.

[Blknight.aus]

no a higher ratio means more turns of the input shaft for less turns of the axle which means that you get more torque but less speed, which to me sounds ideal for getting the trailer to push along at low speed.

if you put the chain on the largest chain wheel and the smallest cluster gear (at the wheel) on a push bike then stand up on the pedal you will cover more distance but you will do so slowly at first and then get faster.

if you put it on the smallest chainwheel and the largest cluster gear you'll go a very short distance but you'll take of quicker.

[wagoo]

But Ben, when Im on a pushie, if I have the chain on the little cog at the pedals (think pinion) and big cog at the back (think crown) its bloody hard to push the pedals... dosnt a 4.7 diff mean the crown has 4.7times the teeth of the pinion?

I had thought hydraulic... I did like the thought of hydro wheel motors too BUT also needs too quickly and easily free wheel. Half shafts and free wheeling hubs are cheap and easy to come by.

Any ideas on a source for hydraulic motors? Especially wheel motors? Are ag implemet motors going to be a starting point?

There are lots of powering possibilities. Just pondering the best/easiest/ghettofab capable path of least resistance.

Part of me thinks I should start building the trailer and then incorporate drive at a later date BUT if there is some vital component like a driveshaft that needs to be incorporated it makes sense to plan for that.

If it's just for a boat trailer, therefore long front and rear overhangs, then mechanical drive is probably easiest and cheapest.You'll never exceed the driveshaft angularity limitations with a boat on, so the hitch and driveshaft probably won't need to be concentric.If your vehicle is fitted with an LT95 transmission, the high/low range PTO is the go, but if it has an Lt230 or Series T/case, then an additional transfercase on the trailer drawbar is the solution.Series or coiler axles can be widened an extra 9'' or so by lengthening the short side axle tube to centre the diff and run a long halfshaft each side.
Bill.

[JDNSW]

I would think that the hydroulic route would be the way to go, with a hydraulic motor either on the diff (simplest) or on each wheel. Agricultural equipment suppliers would be the way to go. Best would be a pump driven off a PTO, but an engine driven pump would work. Not sure about the steering pump though - you really need a much bigger reservoir or things would get awfully hot awfully quickly. Some decisions would need to be worked out on size of pump (pressure and volume) and motor requirements/gearing - fairly simple calculations, but you need to decide on what speed you need the assist - a variable displacement pump would help flexibility. Agricultural quick connect fittings would be the way to connect.

John

[roverrescue]

Brainfart - all makes good sense now....

Well then. If hydraulic: what flow and pressure is the PS pump good for... as opposed to an MR Automotive PTO hydraulic pump. I sent them a query but havent heard back with ratings of the PTO hydraulic pump.

dave, would not there be a risk of stalling/burning and electric motor if trailer traction/mass cannot be overcome by available torque? Is there a way I can calculate size/output of motor required with some rough inputs?

I do like the concept of electric, I already have the fender wired up to operate a Warn9000 on the big boat trailer. If i was to run a trailer diff driven by a driveshaft up to the winch post the electric motor would be relatively clear of mud and water. If needed I have a few old winches lying around which could have planeteries butchered to alter the driven shaft speed???

S

[isuzurover]

I would think that the hydroulic route would be the way to go, with a hydraulic motor either on the diff (simplest) or on each wheel. Agricultural equipment suppliers would be the way to go. Best would be a pump driven off a PTO, but an engine driven pump would work. Not sure about the steering pump though - you really need a much bigger reservoir or things would get awfully hot awfully quickly. Some decisions would need to be worked out on size of pump (pressure and volume) and motor requirements/gearing - fairly simple calculations, but you need to decide on what speed you need the assist - a variable displacement pump would help flexibility. Agricultural quick connect fittings would be the way to connect.

John

for those with an ISUZU, 6BD1 PAS pumps are reported to be larger than 4BD1.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Would a viscous coupling in a mechanical set up be beneficial so there isn't any wind up? Would it also prevent the trailer from overpowering the vehicle in those rolly polly situations, if it couldn't lock up?
I know nuffink about autos and VCs so laugh at me if i'm way off the mark :)

Edit: I could be thinking of fluid couplings or torque converters or something...

[goingbush]

The idea I have been toying with is to use Bobcat hydraulic motor on each wheel & a freewheeling hub each. plenty of grunt & very simple to engineer.
Hydraulic pump on pto - no brainer.

[JDNSW]

for those with an ISUZU, 6BD1 PAS pumps are reported to be larger than 4BD1.

I have not done any calculations, but I doubt the size of the pump is the problem (particularly for the Isuzu) but the reservoir size is. There are significant losses in this sort of hydraulic system, and that all ends up as heat in the hydraulic fluid. Most such systems use the reservoir for cooling, although a heat exchanger may reduce the size of reservoir needed. Not a problem with steering, as it is essentially an intermittent use.

John

[wagoo]

The idea I have been toying with is to use Bobcat hydraulic motor on each wheel & a freewheeling hub each. plenty of grunt & very simple to engineer.
Hydraulic pump on pto - no brainer.

Don,I have only a basic knowlege of hydraulic drives, but have you seen a schematic drawing of the LandRover Mayflower (MAP) hydraulic winch assembly? What a mess of pipes and fittings.And the capacity of the hydraulic oil tank, just to keep the oil at a reasonable temperature! And on a low geared wormdrive winch at that.
I'd imagine the hyd pump and wheel motors would generate a bit of heat, thereby requiring a sizable tank.
So let's see,you'll need a high volume PTO driven hydraulic pump, 2 hyd wheel motors plus special stub shafts and adaptor plates to fit free wheel hubs, 1 hydraulic oil supply tank, 2 high pressure feed lines from pump to wheel motors, 1 low pressure supply line from tank to pump and 2 return lines from wheel motors back to tank, possibly via an oil cooler. Then you still have to mount these wheel motors to an axle with special wheels.
What could be simpler:confused:
Bill.

[wagoo]

Would a viscous coupling in a mechanical set up be beneficial so there isn't any wind up? Would it also prevent the trailer from overpowering the vehicle in those rolly polly situations, if it couldn't lock up?
I know nuffink about autos and VCs so laugh at me if i'm way off the mark :)

Edit: I could be thinking of fluid couplings or torque converters or something...

How about a freewheel unit from an old 80'' Landy t/case in the propshaft line to the diff? Lockable for reversing or creeping down steep gradients, but when unlocked the vehicle can drive the trailer, but the trailer can't overun the vehicle, except from the force of gravity, which even happens with unpowered trailers anyway.
Bill.

[easo]

You do realise the concept was a dismal failure and never got past the prototype stage - the system wrecked a couple of 101s when the trailer at certain angles tipped the 101 over.

A couple of pics posted by a AULRO member some time ago.

Garry

Here they are, took them at Gayton in 2008.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/1058.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/1059.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/1060.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/1061.jpg

Easo