Suspension Issues/Fun

[Veryan]

Ok Guys and Ladies,

Second trip to the Powerlines, and for the second time I bust both my rear shockies and my springs keep coming out (I left a spring at the bottom of a hill climb 3 times).

After last time, I put in a set of Terra Firma TF117 which have about 2" more length than standard I am lead to believe. Firstly the left rear spring came out, which was easy enough to put back in. Then I sheared off the spindle in the middle of the drivers rear shockie. Then the left side did the same. I used some old fence wire to retain the tops of the springs (the bottoms had retaining plates) and completed the rest of the track without any rear shockies. The final climb caused the drivers rear to rip out the bottom retaining plates and on return it mashed its way through the rear brake line. I put a hose clamp on the rear and managed to get back home.

Also managed to banana the front track rod. But thats a minor issue.

What to do? A 2" raise dislocation cones and 5" extra length shockies? (I also not that the shockies seemed to have suffered under compression too....raise the top shock mount?)

I have been reading this with some interest

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/141398-dislocation-retention-6.html

Seems I have this same problem - the ass is moving more than the front issue. I did get a little lost with all the techno talk in the middle :angel:


The truck seems to go up everything I point it at, even when missing either a spring and/or 2 shockies. Amazing. It was not like I was doing anything really crazy. Was going slow, mostly in low 1st, so crawling.

Advice?

[Cliffy]

Mate, are you sure the shocks you put in were long enough??
Look at your trailing arm bushes, are they flogged out allowing the rear to flop about?
My old RR classic always used to discocate springs. I'd say too that you are missing the spring retainers that fix the spring to the axle. you can weld bits of flat bar to your top mounts as tempory guides.
If you rear is moving that much better check your prop shaft too.
As i was not there I can't comment on any other causes.
Maybe you need to get a new set of shocks and coils that are matched??

[Allan]

If you have no dislocation cones they will drop out of the mounts often useing +2" shocks.

Allan

[uninformed]

sounds like shocks are to long on standard mounts....getting fubar'd under compression and at full extention longer than the spring between its perches so they fall out.....I would be supprised if your running stock rear trailing arms that they havent started to bend due to your other damages....

spring rate and length has to matched to shock length and shock mounts have to matched back to the spring and bump stop....allowing atleast 30mm of compression of rubber bump stop!

if you want the front to flex, get the softest springs you can handle the ride of and set shocks to suit.....then match the rear to the front.

you might want to check your brake lines if you have been over extending the stock set up with longer shocks...

[Veryan]

Mate, are you sure the shocks you put in were long enough??
Look at your trailing arm bushes, are they flogged out allowing the rear to flop about?
My old RR classic always used to discocate springs. I'd say too that you are missing the spring retainers that fix the spring to the axle. you can weld bits of flat bar to your top mounts as tempory guides.
If you rear is moving that much better check your prop shaft too.
As i was not there I can't comment on any other causes.
Maybe you need to get a new set of shocks and coils that are matched??


The shocks I put in were longer than the ones that I took off. It did have spring retainers on the bottom, but near the beginning one of the tabs sheared off, allowing the spring to drop out completely. After the third time, I cut a bit of fencing wire off a old fence and wired in the tops and bottoms. The fencing wire turned out stronger than at the top and it ripped out the bottom retaining plates. When the spring returned it did some rather nasty damage to the steel brake line (ruptured it), resulting in me having to put a hose clamp on the rear flexi hose to get it home.


I'll have a look at the trailing arms and bushes. They look pretty solid. I need to check the rear prop - I was concerned about this too. No weird noises or vibrations on the way home. I did take it slow though.



If you have no dislocation cones they will drop out of the mounts often using +2" shocks.

Allan

I found the springs unseating with standard length shockies too.


sounds like shocks are to long on standard mounts....getting fubar'd under compression and at full extention longer than the spring between its perches so they fall out.....I would be surprised if your running stock rear trailing arms that they havent started to bend due to your other damages....

spring rate and length has to matched to shock length and shock mounts have to matched back to the spring and bump stop....allowing atleast 30mm of compression of rubber bump stop!

if you want the front to flex, get the softest springs you can handle the ride of and set shocks to suit.....then match the rear to the front.

you might want to check your brake lines if you have been over extending the stock set up with longer shocks...

Yep running stock everything. I will have a look at the rear trailing arms. It did cross my mind that with that much axle travel something else should be on the limit.

I will extend the brake lines. I had to hose clamp the rear braided flexi so that I did not loose all my fluid (I could not remember if duel circuits are actually fitted, I urged on caution).

I thought if I put slightly longer shocks in, then they would stop the snapping issue. Clearly not. I could not say how much the bump stops are compressing. I'm not sure I even touched them yet, even when there was a spring missing it was not sitting on the bump stop.

I was going to get a set of King Springs with 2" lift. I hear that these are pretty soft and allow plenty of axle articulation from guys in the know out just off the Albany Highway around Bentley.

Is there a secret to matching the correct coils and springs? Or a little trial and error?

I do have the unfaltering ability to break just about everything I touch. Regardless of how well engineered. :twisted: Or I am just a naff driver.

[Veryan]

I think you can just make out that the rear axle has dropped right down. Front is not flexing too much.

42426

[wagoo]

These Terra Firma Shocks you have been breaking? How does the size of the bottom pin/rubbers and top bushing compare to std LandRover items?
The angle of the shock mounts and orientation of the top bushing on 110's etc places a lot of strain on the shocks and bushings at the limit of articulation, and if the aftermarket shocks ends and bushings are smaller than standard they will break.
Bill.

[Veryan]

These Terra Firma Shocks you have been breaking? How does the size of the bottom pin/rubbers and top bushing compare to std LandRover items?
The angle of the shock mounts and orientation of the top bushing on 110's etc places a lot of strain on the shocks and bushings at the limit of articulation, and if the aftermarket shocks ends and bushings are smaller than standard they will break.
Bill.

Bottom pin was bigger. It took a M14 rather than the M12 I took off. Spindle was a touch thicker. Upper Shock mount (Eye type) was the same, but larger weld. I'll post a picture up. They both sheared at the same point - where the spindle joins the top eye.

I have checked and the TF117's I used are replacement parts for the originals - they were maybe a 1" longer extended. I was informed that they would be fine with a 2" lift (which I had yet to fit)...clearly not.

I have been looking at now replacing the top shock mount with a pin type arrangement rather than the eye type. Sensible?

I note that you can actually see my rear diff under the vehicle in that picture the rear has dropped down that much. And only 235/85 on 16's. I checked and they have not been rubbing on the inside of the wheel arches.

Thanks so far.

[wagoo]

Bottom pin was bigger. It took a M14 rather than the M12 I took off. Spindle was a touch thicker. Upper Shock mount (Eye type) was the same, but larger weld. I'll post a picture up. They both sheared at the same point - where the spindle joins the top eye.

I have checked and the TF117's I used are replacement parts for the originals - they were maybe a 1" longer extended. I was informed that they would be fine with a 2" lift (which I had yet to fit)...clearly not.

I have been looking at now replacing the top shock mount with a pin type arrangement rather than the eye type. Sensible?

.
Ask Serg (Uninformed) to post up photos of his patented upper rear shock mount.
A few years ago I spent a whole day with a hoist cycling the rear suspension through its articulation limits to determin the exact position and orientation to place the top eye type mounting so as to eliminate bending and shearing stresses on the shocks, only to sell the vehicle without making any notes or drawings.:o
The tyres on a coiler shouldn't rub on the inside of the wheel boxes, but would polish the upper spring perch.
Bill.

[Veryan]

Pic of the set up, after I had put the spring back in.

42432

Not the ideal place for your rear spring.....:eek: wheel is not touching body work or bottomed out the bump stops either. Got pretty quick towards the end at putting this one back in until I found some old fencing wire to hold it in.

42433

[uninformed]

I looked for my pics but cant find them.....and Bill, as you know the credit should go more to you as they were built from your findings...Basicly the Disco 2 got it right. Have a look under one and see the angle of the top rear mount...I am yet to see anyone sell a bolt on rear upper mount that duplicates this angle.

[lambrover]

The standard retaining plate for the coils are to thin. By the looks of your coil it is thick wire and when retained would put a lot of strain on the retainers. I think you need a lighter weight coil so it will open up easier and fit heavy duty retaining plates

[wagoo]

I looked for my pics but cant find them.....and Bill, as you know the credit should go more to you as they were built from your findings...Basicly the Disco 2 got it right. Have a look under one and see the angle of the top rear mount...I am yet to see anyone sell a bolt on rear upper mount that duplicates this angle.

I'm fairly certain that we were working independantly on parralell lines Serg, as I don't recall posting anything very specific about my solution because its very difficult to describe the orientation without pics or drawings.
Bill.

[uninformed]

Well Bill, I do give you 95% credit and me 5% for making them...It was postings by you describing your findings and the D2 set up that was in my mind when I made them...Thanks :cool:

[Veryan]

OK, I will climb overs the neighbours fence and dodge the rather happy but woofy Lab and try and get a sneaky peek at there D2 ;)

So the Terra Firma shock mounts that use Pin types are no good? Like this

Terrafirma Long travel rear top shock mounts | Suspension - Hardware Accessories for Land Rover Vehicles (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=1&grp=21)

Not that I would get that specific make, just an example. These seem to relocate the top pin slightly aft wards.

[saiken]

Gwynn Lewis make some awesome mounts, including one that gives you three different options for the angle of the shock. But you will require pin/pin shocks to use them.