Tdi turbo hoses replaced - lack of power still exists. Help? [Archive]

VladTepes

11th January 2012, 02:22 PM

I have a lack of power problem that is quite likely a result of delaminating hoses (from other threads I have read). (On acceleration and hills)

Problem is I'm not sure exactly which hoses I should be checking.

Can anyone tell me what I should be looking for - marked photo or diagram pointing me to the right hoses would be very handy.

If i was to need new hoses for his problem, what would I actually be asking for? (and how much might they cost me?).

Thanks.

lewy

11th January 2012, 02:53 PM

anything between the airfilter and turbo,if the budget can handle it replace with silicon,perhaps a hose kit to suit your model,clean out the intercooler there is some posts on here as to what to use,personally i use petrol but for heavens sake make sure all the fumes are gone before reinstalling,I leave mine in the sun for a couple of hours to help with evaporation.

VladTepes

11th January 2012, 03:44 PM

So what would I ask for ? an "intercooler hose kit", a "turbo hose kit" a .... ?

TimNZ

11th January 2012, 03:52 PM

rainman

11th January 2012, 03:57 PM

You could go something like this:

PM991 | Silicone Turbo Hoses for Defender 300TDI (http://www.paddockspares.com/pm991-silicone-turbo-hoses-for-defender-300tdi.html)

Or go to Tony Powell Hose Supplies at Geebung. They have a range of black reinforced rubber hose and bends which is just as good as silicone but without the bling factor, and at a fraction of the price.

James.

VladTepes

11th January 2012, 04:32 PM

Jock The Rock

11th January 2012, 05:04 PM

My old mans were just starting to let go when I caught his.

The most noticable one is the elbow from the outlet of the turbo to the steel pipe that runs to the inlet of the intercooler.

Easiest way to check is to squeeze the hose, if it feels softer than it should it may be delaminating. Pull it off and have a look inside the hose, you should see bulges where they shouldn't be, inside the hose

This is the kit I bought

LAND ROVER DEFENDER 300 TDi TURBO SILICONE HOSE KIT | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DEFENDER-300-TDi-TURBO-SILICONE-HOSE-KIT-/300454887183?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item45f481bf0f)

Do you have a 200 Tdi or 300 Tdi?

I would recommend getting a decent set of hose clamps while your at it

Also it would pay to check to see if it is actually the hoses that are the problem, the lack of power problem may well be something else?

rainman

12th January 2012, 08:16 AM

Does Tony Powell supply these hoses ready to go to suit the 300Tdi or is he just a general hose person who cuts lengths to suit ?

Edit: Found the website - which hoses type do you mean?

Anyone know the "specs" for ordering the appropriate hoses?

Tony Powell is a general hose supply. He'll whip out his hose and cut it to length right in front of you. I wouldn't even know where to start looking on the web site. Just go in and ask them about turbo/intercooler hoses and they'll give you the options. They have a good range of hose clamps too.

The easy option, like others have suggested, is of course just to buy a pre made set off the net. You'll need an address to have them sent to though - are you still homeless ?:Rolling:

James.

slug_burner

12th January 2012, 10:17 AM

As said by Jock, the most likely one to go is the 90* elbow at the outlet of the turbo going to the metal pipe.

Many years ago my elbow hose split (LR wanted a fair few bucks to replace), I pulled the hose off, measured it for internal diameter and approx length of elbow arms, called a turbo place out of yellow pages, bloke couriered the hose to me, had to trim with a sharp knife as the arm lengths were a little longer than needed, changed in carpark in 10 min. Jobs done.

Loubrey

12th January 2012, 10:30 AM

Vlad,

Just another link. Their stuff is usually good quality, bespoke Defender and they'll have it to you in less than a week.

Silicone Hose Kit (http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&category_id=10042&product_id=13295&Itemid=14)

Delaminating and blown hoses are ops normal for Tdi's and I used to keep a full set of spares with me all the time plus an extra one of the short elbow. That one often blows on the outside of the bend and usually when you're in a hurry. Back in 1996 to 2002 when I worked Central Africa there were limited options and we just had to live with replacing hoses.

I eventually ended up with a wire reinforced elbow of a MF tractor (emergency purchase from a farmer's co-op) and it was still there when I eventually replaced the 300Tdi.

Cheers,

Lou

ScottW

13th January 2012, 11:44 AM

My fathers tdi300 disco had this issue. The pipe was sucking shut. Get the right size 90 degree elbow from super cheap, autobarn, chepa auto spares or whoever is close and be done with it. No need for a kit, decent re-inforced silicone pipes are cheap these days.

Blknight.aus

13th January 2012, 03:09 PM

Mr automotive.

I might still have the old rubber ones that were ok when I pulled them in favor of the silcone ones I fitted to the wifes disco

VladTepes

16th January 2012, 12:40 AM

Yeah MR Auto $175 ! Ouch.

slug_burner

16th January 2012, 02:16 AM

Yeah MR Auto $175 ! Ouch.

IS that for a whole set?

If not then try these guys Silicone Hose Couplers (http://www.txs.com.au/silicon/)

I have no association with this vendor.

16th January 2012, 06:11 AM

Hi Vlad,

Something like this I imagine:

200Tdi Defender: Land Rover Defender 200Tdi Hose Kit (http://www.allisport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75:land-rover-defender-200tdi-hose-kit&catid=23&Itemid=158&lang=en)

I have delt with Allisport in the past an they are excellent. However, I'd imagine there are Oz suppliers that can help also.

Cheers,

I too have allisport set of silicon hoses on both my Defenders. love them and they are great

Got then from the uk and they will take of the VAT ( uk gst ) and remember that is at 20% in the at the moment

Ali

VladTepes

18th January 2012, 12:10 PM

Dave are the Disco ones the same as the Defender ones? If you dont still need thme I'd be interested.

As far as getting from O/S freight quotes seem to be GBP35-46 ! Ouch again.

Blknight.aus

18th January 2012, 12:32 PM

Havent tried it before but I believe that they are near enough to work.

yeah MR auto at $175 as opposed to buying them from overseas at about $90-100 for the 3 then paying $60-70 in shipping. (if you want them fast.) (and the ebay ones are about 2 thirds the last list price I have for them.)

I'll have a dig about for them.

VladTepes

20th January 2012, 11:20 AM

I'm going o take off and check these hoses on the weekend.
Even if they seem Ok I may replace them so at least I can be sure theya re not a factor.

IF they are OK, what else could be causeing my symptoms.

When cold (especially) and on hills - absolute bugger all power, often stall it just trying to get up the driveway !

Once going on teh freeway etc it sees not too bad but around town at lights etc take-off is often "subdued".

I'm hoping it's the hoses as that will be easiest / cheapest to fix.
Need to get this sorted as am planning a Fraser trip and need a semblance of power for the sand !

rainman

20th January 2012, 11:29 AM

Have you noticed if you're blowing grey/oil smoke when the engine is coldish? It normally happens on overrun or when you back off to change gears. I have this problem at the moment. My guess is that either the crankcase breather or the turbo are leaking oil into the inlet tract and it's collecting in the bottom of the intercooler when the vehicle isn't being used.

James.

VladTepes

20th January 2012, 11:55 AM

Black smoke only as far as I can see.

rainman

20th January 2012, 12:01 PM

That's probably fuel smoke. Does it only smoke when when it's cold? Is it at low revs/off idle or all of the time? Has you injector pump been played with?

Also, when you pull your intercooler hoses off, check for oily residue.

VladTepes

20th January 2012, 12:18 PM

Will do.

Yeah injector pump has been "tweaked" a fair while ago for extra power (ironic eh, but it did work for a while!). Smokes sometimes changing gears etc as a esult of thetweak, but nothing truly excessive to be concerned about.

rainman

20th January 2012, 12:28 PM

Hmmmm, well the injector pump settings shouldn't just "change" so like you suggested first, check the intercooler hoses.

You could also cast your eye over the boost compensator and waste gate actuator hoses. Make sure they haven't detached, split, burnt through on the exhaust manifold, etc. This is more likely to cause loss of boost/higher end lack of power, and not specifically when cold, but worth a look while you're at it ;).

James.

VladTepes

20th January 2012, 12:51 PM

any diagram showing what ones those hoses are.

rainman

20th January 2012, 12:56 PM

It's pretty easy to spot them. Start at the large 2 inch-ish steel tube between the turbo and the intercooler (your rubber hoses either end of it). On top of that there's a small hose (approx 1/4") coming off. Trace that to the T-piece. From here it splits, one going to the wastegate actuator underneath the exhaust manifold, and the other around the back of the block to the top of the injector pump. Check that all of those 1/4" hoses are connected, split free, etc, etc.

James.

Jock The Rock

20th January 2012, 05:27 PM

When were you tappet clearances last checked?

I notice it when mine need adjusting. As you said low down torque is affected, especially when cold

Most noticable was when I had a lash cap let go and one was way out

The book says every 20,000km I do mine every 10,000

Blknight.aus

20th January 2012, 06:08 PM

my hoses are no good, they made their way under something heavy and now have a cross section that might feed an RC nitro engine.

VladTepes

27th January 2012, 10:02 AM

Well I finally did the hoses. Wasn't too hard a job.... until I got to the bottom one. Talk about inacessible ! What a bugger of a thing to work on. Anyway finally got it done and problem with power is..., unchanged.

Where to look next? I really want to get this fixed asap.

rainman

27th January 2012, 11:19 AM

So, let's just revisit the symptoms again - is it bottom end power, top end power, or just generally a "lack of power"? Are you making boost? You wouldn't happen to have a boost gauge fitted would you? Can you hear the turbo spooling up?

You could check the function of the boost compensator in the injector pump. On top of the injector pump, where the small hose from the intercooler pipe attaches, there are four screws (could be allen head or flat blade). Undo them and very carefully lift the top. The diaphragm underneath may be slightly stuck to it, so don't pull it all of the way up, and don't rotate the top while it's attached to the diaphragm. You'll need to separate it carefully. I use a Stanley knife, but you have to be really, really careful not to score, or puncture the diphragm, or score the mating surfaces of the injector pump. As soon as you have the lid off, mark the position of the diaphragm in relation to the pump body with a pen. It rotates to change the amount of fuel delivered as boost changes. This is very critical in the tuning so mark it, and then preferably don't rotate it. Now push gently directly down on the metal centre. It has a spring under it so it should slide down and spring back up freely.

Having said all of this, if you're not confident it's probably best that you don't do it. Trying to think what else to check :angel:. Did this suddenly start happening?

James.

VladTepes

28th January 2012, 11:37 AM

So, let's just revisit the symptoms again - is it bottom end power, top end power, or just generally a "lack of power"? Are you making boost? You wouldn't happen to have a boost gauge fitted would you? Can you hear the turbo spooling up?

Bottom end power definitely. When starting of from lights etc is sluggish but ESPECIALLY when on a hill its prone to stalling and I wonder whether there is some sort of fuel delivery problem.

Top end power - its a Tdi there is none! Seriously though I'm unsure about this but its certainly not really noticeable as compared to low down.

Making boost? Unsure what you mean there. No boost guage fitted, no.
Turbo does (as far as I can tell) spool up but takes a while....

You could check the function of the boost compensator in the injector pump. On top of the injector pump, where the small hose from the intercooler pipe attaches, there are four screws (could be allen head or flat blade). Undo them and very carefully lift the top. The diaphragm underneath may be slightly stuck to it, so don't pull it all of the way up, and don't rotate the top while it's attached to the diaphragm. You'll need to separate it carefully. I use a Stanley knife, but you have to be really, really careful not to score, or puncture the diphragm, or score the mating surfaces of the injector pump. As soon as you have the lid off, mark the position of the diaphragm in relation to the pump body with a pen. It rotates to change the amount of fuel delivered as boost changes. This is very critical in the tuning so mark it, and then preferably don't rotate it. Now push gently directly down on the metal centre. It has a spring under it so it should slide down and spring back up freely.

Having said all of this, if you're not confident it's probably best that you don't do it. Trying to think what else to check :angel:. Did this suddenly start happening?

James.

Definitely not confident to tackle something like that myself.

I honestly can;t say if it was sudden, just that its been happening for a long time now. LR mechanic I go to canlt seem to replicate the problem, but I suspect its just not finding an appropriate hill or something to try it on.

Ideally someone with a good mechanical / LR knowledge needs to take it for a drive and they may well be able to put their finger on likely diagnoses, and also what is unlikely to be the cause.

DEFENDERZOOK

28th January 2012, 12:54 PM

ok...just so i don't have to go back and read through 3 pages of threads.....

have you checked to see the fuel is clean....?

are you still using the same tank of fuel.....or is it having the same problems with fresh fuel......?

have you checked the fuel filter to make sure its not blocked.....?

are you getting full throttle at the butterfly when the accelerator is flat to the floor.....dont laugh.....it happens more often than you think.....

have you checked to make sure that the metal fuel pipe from the injector pump isn't cracked and leaking.....common prob too....

and also make sure the air cleaner is clean as well......

these are some basic and free checks......if this is still the same problem with different fuel.....then theres always the chance you may have got some diesel bug.....
thats why the fuel filter needs to be checked.....give it a shake and pour some fuel out into a clean container...preferably white or glass....pour out some fuel from both sides of the fuel filter.....and see how that looks.....

im assuming you've already checked the water sedimenter in the bottom of the filter for water first......?

camel_landy

29th January 2012, 08:28 AM

Some more points:

Intercooler - Have you cleaned it out?
Fuel sedimenter - Drain & re-fit.
Fuel filter?
Turbo to fuel pump hose... Is it OK?

As for the fuel pump boost compensator. It is actually quite an easy job. If you do a search, I've done a couple of detailed(ish) writeups on how to do it.

Good luck.

M

Blknight.aus

29th January 2012, 08:58 AM

Im reshuffling the schedule ATM, Send me a PM in about a weeks time and I might have an at home slot for you, might not be long enough to fix it but should be long enough to diagnose it,.

uninformed

29th January 2012, 02:55 PM

Vlad, do you have a EGT gauge? If so, is it reading higher than normal for a given rpm-gear-speed-load?

VladTepes

30th January 2012, 11:34 AM

Dave will do.

Other q's people asked:
No EGT guage.

Problem has existed for numerous tanks off fuel - like heaps so that's not the problem I think.

No I haven't checked the fuel filter. Where is it?
Sedimenter? WHat? Where?

How can I tell whether the throttle is fully opened when pedal to the floor?

No i haven't checked the metal pipe

air cleaner seems fine.

No I haven't cleaned out the intercooler. I had enough drama just accessing the bottom hose I have no wish to give myself a bigger headache and even think about removing the intercooler !

The hoses all seem to be OK.

As you can see I have little mechanical nouse so will be talking to Dave about it !

rainman

30th January 2012, 11:41 AM

The fuel filter mounts on the inside edge of the right hand guard at the front, kind of just behind/back from the radiator.

The sedimenter is beside the fuel tank on the left hand back corner.

A question for Camel-landy (or perhaps Blknight):

Does the 300Tdi have a butterfly/butterflies? I thought the only common/popular diesels that did were later model Toyotas. I certainly don't get vacuum in my inlet manifold.

James.

rainman

30th January 2012, 11:45 AM

Does the 300Tdi have a butterfly/butterflies? I thought the only common/popular diesels that did were later model Toyotas. I certainly don't get vacuum in my inlet manifold.

Now that I think about it, it can't have butterflies. There's no throttle linkage to the inlet manifold. Is that right?

rick130

30th January 2012, 12:21 PM

No butterfly ;)

PAT303

30th January 2012, 12:45 PM

Check the water trap,if you don't know what it is it hasn't been cleaned out and is probably full of fungas.Do a valve set. Pat

uninformed

30th January 2012, 01:52 PM

Check the water trap,if you don't know what it is it hasn't been cleaned out and is probably full of fungas.Do a valve set. Pat
Pat, what do you mean by "valve set"?

wrinklearthur

30th January 2012, 02:54 PM

Now that I think about it, it can't have butterflies. There's no throttle linkage to the inlet manifold. Is that right?

I get butterflies sometimes driving my Defender along the side of banks ! :eek:
.

harro

30th January 2012, 03:22 PM

Does it have an EGR?
I know some 300tdi's did
If it was stuck open you would have symptoms like you describe similar to what happens to the TD5.

Paul.

PAT303

30th January 2012, 03:29 PM

Pat, what do you mean by "valve set"?

Sorry mate,I worked on CAT machinery for quite a while and we checked valve clearance and injector lift every 1000hrs and it's called doing a valve set.Just a bit of info,to do a valve set on any of the big trucks takes 12hrs and involves winding the engine over by hand with a 1/2'' drive ratchet and lying on top of the big piece of crap setting all the clearances,the engines are V16's with four valves per cylinder.You get big forearms after doing a few. Pat

VladTepes

30th January 2012, 03:40 PM

EGR ? whats that?

I think there was/shoulb be a sedimenter or water trap or something mounted in the rear guard (visible near the wheel, from the outside) yes?
If so mine has been removed to allow space to fit the remote reservoir for the shock absorber. hmmm.

Valve clearances were done not too long ago... should be fine.

uninformed

30th January 2012, 03:44 PM

Vlad, I hope your sediment bowl hasnt been removed...a very simple but very effective bit of gear on the LR.

does your turbo sound normal but maybe a bit louder? more noticable whistle?

Blknight.aus

30th January 2012, 04:02 PM

valve setting is the art of setting the valve clearances so that each cylinder recieves the same amount of air.

Pat if thats the sheet time for a valve adjustment where you work can I come work with you?

No, the TDI doesnt have a throttle butterfly, They are a horrid idea that are put in for one of 2 reasons the first being to create manifold vacuum to run the brakes because the designers are too lazy to install a vac pump on the engine the second is to make a diesel engine respond like a petrol engine so that people who've never driven a diesel before dont have to learn to adapt from one type to the next. Fortunately that idea died of in the mid/late 80's.

I'll be spanner swinging on friday arvo, wheel it on over after about 1600vlad.

rainman

30th January 2012, 04:08 PM

throttle butterfly, They are a horrid idea that are put in for one of 2 reasons the first being to create manifold vacuum to run the brakes because the designers are too lazy to install a vac pump on the engine the second is to make a diesel engine respond like a petrol engine so that people who've never driven a diesel before dont have to learn to adapt from one type to the next. Fortunately that idea died of in the mid/late 80's.

Love it! :BigThumb: You are so justifiably bitter Dave :D.

James.

harro

31st January 2012, 07:27 AM

[QUOTE=VladTepes;1618062]EGR ? whats that?

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/attachments/f7/14694d1270048333-egr-removal-extra-bits-p1090004.jpg

EGR= Exaust Gas Recirculation, don't know if it was fitted to all 300tdi's but it will eventually give you problems if it is not bypassed or removed.

Paul.

rick130

31st January 2012, 07:52 AM

harro

31st January 2012, 08:27 AM

[quote=harro;1618540]

AFAIK EGR was never fitted to any Defender imported into Australia.

Thanks for the info Rick, I know my 300 didn't have one but didn't know no Oz imports did.
Cheers,
Paul.

uninformed

31st January 2012, 10:11 AM

[quote=harro;1618540]

AFAIK EGR was never fitted to any Defender imported into Australia.

is it that electrical plug on the waste gate?

rick130

31st January 2012, 11:17 AM

[quote=rick130;1618555]

is it that electrical plug on the waste gate?

All I know is that the valve and piping went from where the blanking plate is on the exhaust manifold to a tee on the hose between the IC and inlet manifold.

There was a throttle position sensor on the IP and (I just read the manual :D) a control box under the cubby box, a vacuum valve on the firewall and it looks like the EGR valve was mounted straight on the exhaust manifold.

Some Tdi Defenders even had a cat in the exhaust, so we got off lightly here.

harro

31st January 2012, 01:03 PM

Sounds a lot like it is just down on boost.
Couldn't be as simple as a sticking wastegate?

pawl

8th February 2012, 06:42 PM

Just a thought, I remember reading ages ago that the defender lift pumps had a gauze filter screen under the cap at the top of the pump and can get blocked occasionally. Is this correct? Could this be an issue? My 300tdi disco doesn't have this, as from what I read, the defender had these because they are the type of vehicle that drives to areas with suspect fuel. Correct me if I'm wrong.

rick130

9th February 2012, 09:03 AM