West Australian suspension idea (link will only work for a few days)

[austastar]

Hi,
Interesting video from ABC TV but unfortunately it may only work for a few days till it expires.

Link (http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2011/10/14/3340541.htm'site=southwestwa)

Very successful suspension idea, and was banned from Dakar race.
I've put a screen shot below.

cheers

[Blknight.aus]

which link?

[uninformed]

Yep, Kenetic...he did this many years ago, it was in a few 4x4 mags and then just disappeared....becasue it was very good and big money got it. He seems like a very clever guy and good on him.

other will know more details, but I dont think it just hydraulic rams, but computer linked?? I do wonder if there is any corrolation with the F1 killing williams cars of the 90's that ran similar and got banned???

The Landy looked impressive going through those wombat holes.

rember you can have the best/longest shocks in the world, but no good at all with out a well designed link system that can utilise them...

[rick130]

Citroen used it on their WRC and Dakar cars, as did Mitsubishi from memory, and Toyota used it on the LC wagon as an option at one stage.

[edit] haha, just had a quick look at the link and showed the rally and dakar cars

[rick130]

[snip]

other will know more details, but I dont think it just hydraulic rams, but computer linked?? I do wonder if there is any corrolation with the F1 killing williams cars of the 90's that ran similar and got banned???

[snip]

Naa, Williams made a grossly simplified version of Lotus' active suspension system that worked far better than the overcomplicated, overweight (for racing) Lotus system.

[uninformed]

thanks Rick, I figured you would know. BTW your memory is good, click on the blue word LINK in the OP first post, it will take you to the vid and it talks about Citrone having soul rights to it, and racing, them Mitsu, then being sold....check out the landy going through the wonbat holes

happy new year mate, hope you and Vicky are both well and off to a great start

[manic]

didnt it get used by lexus/toyota? Looks like some kind of mechanical stabiliser - an improvement on fixed anti-roll bars.

Land Crui...
LandCruiser 200 - Kinetic Suspension System - YouTube

[isuzutoo-eh]

By memory it was an automatc hydraulic system but had a joystick for manual overide. There was precious little info in late 80s early 90s Overlander latest news, but a fair few pics of a blue County and a mog driving over log beds with incredible articulation at west coast 4wd shows.

[Blknight.aus]

the basics of it is cross linked hydraulics and then theres the bit of magic in the middle....

[wagoo]

The inventor is now probably a very wealthy man and good luck to him.
I remember reading about the kinetic system way back in the day.The aftermarket suspension industry could have been very different here, but LandRovers back then were pretty much the only common 4wds with link suspensions, but they were low volume sellers in Australia and it wasn't deemed viable to concentrate on producing kits just for them.Far more profitable to sell the design rights to the major vehicle manufacturers.
Bill.

[uninformed]

Bill, did you watch the vid on the link? click the blue word link in the first post in this thread.

[PAT303]

The bloke who invented it now makes boats that ride over rough water perfectly smoothly by using four floats,one on each corner set-up like independant suspension. Pat

[uninformed]

Yes Pat, just like in the vid posted.......;)

[lewy]

home made job

A Landrover with DS suspension (http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/ds/Landrover_with_Cit_Suspension.html)

[wagoo]

Bill, did you watch the vid on the link? click the blue word link in the first post in this thread.
Unfortunately Serg, 3 Gigabyte per month Wireless account doesn't allow me to view U tube without excessively slowing things down for the rest of the month..
Bill

[PAT303]

Yes Pat, just like in the vid posted.......;)

Sorry Serg I didn't watch the vid:angel:. Pat

[PAT303]

Actually while you suspension guys are here,what do you think of poly spring seats/spacers,30mm thickness on the springs to help with corrigations?.For $100 I think they are worth a try. Pat

[wagoo]

Actually while you suspension guys are here,what do you think of poly spring seats/spacers,30mm thickness on the springs to help with corrigations?.For $100 I think they are worth a try. Pat

It' been ages since I've had a good look over a Defender, but do they have rubber insulater rings between the springs and chassis mounts?
Fitting them, made from old conveyor belting to an 85 County made a significant difference to noise and vibrations heard/felt inside the vehicle.
Bill.

[isuzurover]

Actually while you suspension guys are here,what do you think of poly spring seats/spacers,30mm thickness on the springs to help with corrigations?.For $100 I think they are worth a try. Pat

The only reports I have had on them were from a mate who fitted them to a comp rangie. He said it made the vehicle handle poorly so he took them out.

You may want to check if they are legal???

[rick130]

Pat, all they are usually used for is to even up spring heights or as a cheap way to raise one end of the car, and they will probably reduce a bit of NVH in a Defender.

Riding corrugations is a spring/wheel rate/damper rate thing.

[PAT303]

But for 100 bucks and a few hours work I might give them a go. Pat

[uninformed]

Sorry Serg I didn't watch the vid:angel:. Pat

just stirring :D

[uninformed]

just did a quick search and it looks like Kinetic sold their stuff to Tenneco in 2006 for $52 million :eek:

I wonder what the set up was on the defender in the vid? It looked like the springs and shocks had been replaced with a single Ram on each corner. would be interesting if he could still set up a basic rig and how much$$

[isuzurover]

just did a quick search and it looks like Kinetic sold their stuff to Tenneco in 2006 for $52 million :eek:

I wonder what the set up was on the defender in the vid? It looked like the springs and shocks had been replaced with a single Ram on each corner. would be interesting if he could still set up a basic rig and how much$$

Serg - yes there is a single hydraulic ram at each corner which handles all duties normally handles by a spring/damper. There must also be some funky links on some of the vehicles to allow the articulation they get (I have a mag somewhere with a hilux in it - converted from leaves).

Kinetic offered one of the WA uni motorsport teams a licence for $1 to use their suspension system. The idiots turned down Kinetic's offer...

[wagoo]

The diagonally cross linked rams at each wheel would surely need to be connected via an additional sprung hydraulic expansion chamber of some sort.Otherwise what happens when the interconnected wheels hit bumps simultaneously?

[isuzutoo-eh]

29-12-2010, 07:14 PM
Look, I don't have a modern Prado or KDSS, but I have followed the Kinetic suspension project of Chris Hayring's since the late ninties. In its simplest form KDSS is two double acting hydrolic cylinders, with one replacing the swaybar mount on one side at the front and one replacing the sway bar mount on the same side at the back. The two compessive hoses are contected together, and the two extending hoses are connected. Result is if the vehicle tries to lean, both cylinders are being compressed or both under tension and both are are stabilizing each other... no oil flows. However if you cross load your axles, the one unit is under compression, and one in under tension, the oil flows and one extends and the other contracts. Free movement, if a little restricted in speed. In the system there are two acumilators to equalize the pressures and take shock loading. You guys speak of a valve that is used to correct the lean? Ok this must allow the oil to flow between the epansive and compressive sides. The system is so simple that it must be pretty easy to work for the above info and work out how to park on a wee side angle, to correct the lean and open said valve to redistribute the oil.
KDSS - aftermarket suspension lift Ques? [Archive] - PradoPoint - Toyota Prado 4x4 Landcruiser Forum (http://www.pradopoint.com/archive/index.php/t-15762.html?)


If the above person's observations are correct it is active on one side, not cross axle or diagonally accross the vehicle. The better articulation seen on the Jeep and Defender on the vid could be due to forcing the suspension to work with better front/rear balance. The extra stability provided means softer more flexible suspension doesn't wallow on road. Seems logical enough!

This bloke reckons he is the Cheif Engineer at Kinetic:


With a conventional suspension (springs + anti-roll bars) the roll stiffness (cornering) and the articulation stiffness (think off-road, where bumps are trying to twist the front and rear suspension in opposite directions) are completely linked. If you want better handling you make the roll stiffness higher, but the articulation stiffness must also increase. High articulation stiffness = poor traction over bumps (and bad off-road performance). Low articulation stiffness = great off road performance and traction, but poor handling. There is always a compromise between the two.

In a nutshell - the system connects the front and rear anti-roll bars hydraulically (no electronics whatsoever). When the vehicle is in roll, the hydraulics resist any motion, so the anti-roll bars have full stiffness. When the vehicle is going over bumps (articulation) the hydraulics move and the anti-roll bars freely rotate. So you have the full effect of the anti-roll bar when you need it (in roll) and no anti-roll bar when you dont want it (in articulation).

Where the system is particularly clever is that it can do these things simultaneously. If there are bumps halfway around a corner, the system has full roll stiffness for handling but at the same time the wheels are able to freely move over the bumps. It is this benefit which has allowed the system to be applicable not only to 4wds (which is what it was originally invented for) but also for sports cars and race cars which require high handling performance but also need maximum corner traction when the road is not 100% smooth.

Its difficult to explain just using words - if you look at the website there is a little more in the way of pictures etc.

Citroen used the system on the Xsara WRC cars from 2003-2005 when it was dominant - there is even a small Kinetic sticker on the car. It was then banned by the FIA for being an unfair advantage! Mitsubishi Dakar used our technology in 2004 and 2005 to also win (after which time it was also banned...). I was lucky enough to work on both projects. Riding with Sebastian Loeb in Finland was an experience I will never forget (as was being in Africa for the Dakar rally - for very different reasons).

Sorry for the long post

Ray
Australian Suspension Technology on New LandCruiser 200 - R/C Tech Forums (http://www.rctech.net/forum/australian-racing/184004-australian-suspension-technology-new-landcruiser-200-a.html)

[rick130]

Even though Tenneco own the rights to it, the bloke has thirty patents ATM :eek:

There's various degrees of sophistication, eg the Land Cruiser/Lexus system only has a single ram on each anti-roll bar with an accumulator between them.

Patent Searching Database (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/result.html?query_txt=Christopher+Heyring&sort=relevance&srch=top&search=)

[uninformed]

thanks Ben, I watched the landy in the vid about 20 times and it looks to me to be running stock RA's up front and stock rear links (hard to tell.) I can clearly see the front rams mounted to the lower spring shock mount.

I vaguely remember that Lux with massive wheel travel. It would not be hard to achive that with a basic 3 or 4 link and these rams...Im guessing the rams will "force" the articulation more than a spring shock combo...

[rick130]

thanks Ben, I watched the landy in the vid about 20 times and it looks to me to be running stock RA's up front and stock rear links (hard to tell.) I can clearly see the front rams mounted to the lower spring shock mount.

I vaguely remember that Lux with massive wheel travel. It would not be hard to achive that with a basic 3 or 4 link and these rams...Im guessing the rams will "force" the articulation more than a spring shock combo...

Yep, remember how we all used to talk about interconnecting airbags off road, as one is forced up it forces the diagonally opposite side down.

This is a better vid of the 110, from 1:50 on

http://youtu.be/1GfLTWQyF4A

[edit] how do you embed these bloody things ?

[vnx205]

It would appear to be a development of the Morris 1100 "Hydrolastic" (It Floats on Fluid) suspension from the 1960s.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/715.jpg

Morris 1100 in Australia - Hydrolastic Suspension (http://www.elevenhundred.com/hydro.php)

[Nero]

It would appear to be a development of the Morris 1100 "Hydrolastic" (It Floats on Fluid) suspension from the 1960s.



The difference is this actually works.

[wagoo]

It would appear to be a development of the Morris 1100 "Hydrolastic" (It Floats on Fluid) suspension from the 1960s.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/715.jpg

Morris 1100 in Australia - Hydrolastic Suspension (http://www.elevenhundred.com/hydro.php)
The 'hydro' part is self explanetary. The 'Lastic' part? does that refer to the elasticity of the rubber capped Hydraulic chambers in absorbing fluid displacement when both wheels hit bumps simultaneously? If the Kinetic system works on the same or similar principal, I wonder how the inventor was granted a patent.
bill.

[vnx205]

The 'hydro' part is self explanetary. The 'Lastic' part? does that refer to the elasticity of the rubber capped Hydraulic chambers in absorbing fluid displacement when both wheels hit bumps simultaneously? If the Kinetic system works on the same or similar principal, I wonder how the inventor was granted a patent.
bill.

Yes, the chambers were elastic.

The Kinetic system is obviously much more sophisticated and incorporates features that were not in the suspension fitted to the Mini, Morris 1100, 1500 and 1800.

[Bush65]

Kinetic offered 3 (maybe 4?) different suspension systems - all different principles and complexity/performance.

The one that Toyota use in 200 series Landcruisers is the simplest and bears no similarity to the highest performance system that was used (now banned) in world rally champ cars.

The one Toyota use consist of front and rear swaybars that each have a hyd cylinder on one side. By diagonally (top to bottom) connecting the hyd cylinders the swaybars work normally to counter sway during cornering, but offroad when the front and rear axles articulate the diagonal connection of the cylinders give a degree of forced articulation.

Bill, with the system that uses cylinders at each wheel, there is an accumulator between the diagonally (front to rear) connected cylinders, and from memory a pump in the system as well.

[slug_burner]

This simulation covers it fairly well

Kinetic Dynamic Suspension System - YouTube