UK Diesel vs Australian Diesel

[LRO53]

I have recently imported a 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS into Australia. I am still only on my first tank of diesel after the vehicle sat in the container for 3 months.

When acclerating at high rpm more i get more then normal puffs of smoke. Normal driving it does not do it. Just when i give it a thrashing i see a nice long smoke trail. It's like it's slightly overfueling or something.

I can't remember it behaving like this a few months ago while in the UK. Today i filled up with BP Ultimate Diesel which might be closer to the UK spec diesel. I will see how this goes.

The vehicle is "Chipped" by ADM Ltd Northants (Alastair Milne) It was done in 2008 and has been great. Could a UK chipped vehicle act differently on Australian Fuel? Or is Australian Diesel poorer quality and this is normal?

This could be totally normal and i should take no notice and just move on perhaps.... Also fuel consumption is exactly the same as it was in the UK.

[isuzurover]

The diesel fuel standards are basically identical in AU and UK.

Australia: max. 10ppm sulphur, Cetane rating 46, max. 5% Bio/FAME
Diesel Fuel Quality Standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/diesel/index.html)

BS EN590: 10ppm sulphur, Cetane rating 46, max. 7% Bio/FAME
EN 590 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Any issues you are experiencing are likely to be due to the lay-up period, rather than fuel.

[bee utey]

If anything I would suspect hot aussie summer air would be less dense so you'd be on the verge of overfuelling. See how it goes with new fuel, lower air temperatures.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The diesel fuel standards are basically identical in AU and UK.
Ben

I'm not challenging your data, but isn't there some differences in some of the fillers, waxes or oils used in diesel fuels dependant upon ambient temperatures in the region of sale?

Many people have reported problems with waxes or similar precipitating in diesel fuel purchased in Queensland when they return to areas like Victoria or the NSW southern alpine regions during winter.

Diana

[djam1]

Maybe you couldn't see the smoke through the gloom in the UK

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Then again you could LPG fumigate the diesel and then black smoke would be a thing of the past. (More Km/$ and a little better performance too)

[LRO53]

Maybe you couldn't see the smoke through the gloom in the UK

You might be right. or it was too dark!

It's due for service in a while. I will be chaging to Penrite HPR5 Diesel which is a little thicker. I will also fit a new airfilter. I will see how it goes after this.

[isuzurover]

Ben

I'm not challenging your data, but isn't there some differences in some of the fillers, waxes or oils used in diesel fuels dependant upon ambient temperatures in the region of sale?

Many people have reported problems with waxes or similar precipitating in diesel fuel purchased in Queensland when they return to areas like Victoria or the NSW southern alpine regions during winter.

Diana

Fuel formulation of LPG and Petrol is typically adjusted between summer and winter.

Formulation of diesel is changed in cold areas - as you suggest - to prevent "waxing" of the filters. However, the fuel quality standards still apply - i.e. both summer and winter diesel must comply with the fuel standard. Summer diesel in the UK and summer diesel in AU could be expected to be effectively the same, excluding the extra 2% fame permitted in the UK.

[LRO53]

Could it be that the Upto 7% bio in UK diesel actually makes it cleaner?

[harry]

i would dare to suggest that you may still have some uk diesel in the tank that has gone stale to which you have added a top up of aussie fuel, i think you give it a look after a couple of tankfuls go through it, it will probably clean up.

but on the subject of aussie diesel,
i look after a bunch of diesel powered aircraft, which are allowed to run european diesel but not allowed to run aussie diesel, in aust they are required to operate on jet a1 turbine aircraft fuel, so maybe our fuel isn't as good as the euro stuff.

[isuzurover]

Could it be that the Upto 7% bio in UK diesel actually makes it cleaner?

2% probably won't make a huge difference (i.e. be enough to mean visible smoke vs no smoke). The bio is mainly added as a means of getting the fuel lubricity up to spec. West coast diesel in Australia normally has 0% Bio, as there is no local source, so it is cheaper for them to use other lubricity additives.

Do you have a DPF???

[LRO53]

Do you have a DPF???

No DPF fitted.. It's not a new 2.2 Ford Engine.

[isuzurover]

No DPF fitted.. It's not a new 2.2 Ford Engine.

I can never remember what was fitted to the UK TD5s... I though all got oxy-cats and some got DPFs?

[LRO53]

I can never remember what was fitted to the UK TD5s... I though all got oxy-cats and some got DPFs?

I don't think there is any differance to the Exhaust System to a UK / ROW Spec Td5?

I've still got a Cat and EGR that need to be removed one of these days. It's 2005 so it's the EU3 Spec System.

On another note anyone got a good idea how i can mount a Australian Size Number plate without it sticking out? I don't really want to buy a personalised one yet... We can get USA Size in Queensland which are perfect for this.

I don't have the stupid little metal bit the Australian Spec Vehicles have.

[100inch]

I had my chipped and intercooled Td5 110 taken to AUS for 2 months and back to Switzerland in 2005. The difference between the European BP Utlimate and the AUS diesel was really surprising! Saying that the UK BP Ultimate is the best diesel I ever tried. My current Puma goes the best with Caltex.m

[Slunnie]

I don't think there is any differance to the Exhaust System to a UK / ROW Spec Td5?

Check this out with the intercooler and radiator. I only say this because I was under the impression with the Disco2 that there was a hot climate specification that the Australian ones got and it included better radiators etc. I'm not sure if the intercooler was a part of that, especially as in the D2a they changed it to a thicker core, but there may be different specs in the intercooler for the Defender that may explain the smoke probs in these parts of the world.

[Blknight.aus]

i would dare to suggest that you may still have some uk diesel in the tank that has gone stale to which you have added a top up of aussie fuel, i think you give it a look after a couple of tankfuls go through it, it will probably clean up.

but on the subject of aussie diesel,
i look after a bunch of diesel powered aircraft, which are allowed to run european diesel but not allowed to run aussie diesel, in aust they are required to operate on jet a1 turbine aircraft fuel, so maybe our fuel isn't as good as the euro stuff.

Last time I had some batches checked our fuel barely made it to the required Euro III spec. Technically only just safe for the TD5 (for the fuels that made the grade) and out of spec for the PUMA and all the diesels ford put in. From memory the failing points were the suspended particulate matter and the water content.

[LRO53]

Last time I had some batches checked our fuel barely made it to the required Euro III spec. Technically only just safe for the TD5 (for the fuels that made the grade) and out of spec for the PUMA and all the diesels ford put in. From memory the failing points were the suspended particulate matter and the water content.

Interesting. They say the Puma 2.4/2.2 can only handle upto 5% Bio and 0.3% Sulfur 3000 ppm. The EN590 states upto 7% Bio go figure!

I think the test will be now to run 3 tanks of BP Ultimate through and on the 3rd tank by which time the system should be much cleaner. See if there is any less smoke.

Nothing else has changed with the vehicle since it left UK so the only factor is the change in fuel.

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/australia/corporate_australia/STAGING/local_assets/BP_Ultimate_Diesel_prod_info_25022008.pdf
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/australia/corporate_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads_pdfs/d/BP_Ultimate_Diesel.pdf

Reading this it says on there Website Ultimate is comparable to EURO5 Spec Normal Diesel perhaps we really do have rubbish fuel here in Aus.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I dont know the difference between UK and Aus diesel.

I have a UK imported 2006 TD5 complete with remap and intercooler.

I know that it produces more smoke here than it did in the UK when the engine is under load or my right foot is particularly heavy.

WHY????

Not sure, I put it down to the hotter ambient temps and crappier diesel.

I have found that after a few tanks of BP Ultimate my smoke levels reduce considerably.

Wollies fuel seems to smoke a lot, but it my local shop/source.

On the plus side its better to over fuel than under-fuel.

Jon

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just a question for Jon and Alex.

Do your UK spec Defenders have R380 gearboxes with: the external transmission coolers up front.
The short loop external pipe.
no external gearbox cooling plumbing at all.I know that was a design difference between the European spec Discos and South African/Australian spec discos with the R380 boxes, but have never known if it extended to Defenders as well.

[Mike_S]

I'd go with others suggestions as well with regards to fuel quality. I'm having issues with the 1979 Spitfire 1500 we brought out with us, now on its 3rd tank of fuel (Caltex 98) and it's still running like a bag of nails, so it's off into the workshop next week. After spending a similar length of time in the container, opinion's divided on whether the carbs have gummed up in the heat of the container or if something else is amiss. Don't know about the OP but our container spent 3 weeks on the docks in Singapore, in 90+ degree heat & humidity that's knackered a few items of furniture, so it's certainly feasible that it's had an effect on the car as well.

As others have said, if you have a UK remap then bear in mind it'll be set for UK conditions, humidity & air temps. Totally different conditions here and there's every chance the intercooler isn't now up to the job, even if uprated, because it'll be set to use the uprated cooler in the colder air of the UK. I know our Focus XR5 (ST in the UK) has a different cooler & map for Aus conditions. Shame it still has the crappy european AC though, anything over 28 degrees and it's hopeless.

I've had my RRS ecu reset to Aus spec on the engine map, prior to it going in the container at the weekend. Chap who drove it down from the midlands to the south east commented that it definitely ran differently (can't say his exact words on this forum :p )

[Yorkie]

i think you will find very little difference between uk and aus diesel, with both being ultra low sulphur. ok a chemist might be able to explain the slight variations but really for the average person they are the same. :)

you will also find what you buy in bp could be the same stuff your buying from caltex or shell depending on your location and each suppliers local infrastructure. ;)

i would change your fuel/air/oil filter and run a few tanks through before getting too serious and ripping the engine apart. :)

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Just a question for Jon and Alex.


Do your UK spec Defenders have R380 gearboxes with:

the external transmission coolers up front.
The short loop external pipe.
no external gearbox cooling plumbing at all.
I know that was a design difference between the European spec Discos and South African/Australian spec discos with the R380 boxes, but have never known if it extended to Defenders as well.

Yes we all have R380 box. Definately dont have an R380 cooler fitted up front and Im 99.9% certain the dont have the pipe loop either (Id need to get underneath and check to be 100%).

[Yorkshire_Jon]

...you will also find what you buy in bp could be the same stuff your buying from caltex or shell depending on your location and each suppliers local infrastructure. ;)...

Given the industry your in, I guess you should know! Very interesting.

[LRO53]

Wollies fuel seems to smoke a lot, but it my local shop/source.


Jon

Interesting as my first tank of Aus diesel was Woolies!

I will see how the second, third, fourth tank goes of BP Ultimate and report back.

[isuzurover]

Given the industry your in, I guess you should know! Very interesting.

Yorkie is of course correct.

Here is a list of refineries in each state:


New South Wales

Kurnell Refinery, (Caltex), 124,500 bbl/d (19,790 m3/d),[10] Botany Bay
Clyde Refinery, (Royal Dutch Shell), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Clyde

Victoria

Geelong Refinery, (Royal Dutch Shell), 130,000 bbl/d (21,000 m3/d), Geelong
Altona Refinery, (ExxonMobil), about 75,000 bbl/d (11,900 m3/d), Altona North (refinery reduced from 2 trains to 1 train between 2000–2004)

Queensland

Bulwer Island Refinery, (BP), 90,000 bbl/d (14,000 m3/d), Bulwer Island
Lytton Refinery, (Caltex), 104,000 bbl/d (16,500 m3/d), Lytton

South Australia

Port Stanvac Refinery, (ExxonMobil), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Lonsdale (mothballed since 2003 - 239 ha site to be cleaned up and redeveloped for housing)

Western Australia

Kwinana Refinery, (BP), 138,000 bbl/d (21,900 m3/d), Kwinana


The "brands" have product sharing arrangements. So whatever flavour servo you go to, there is a 99% chance the fuel came from whichever refinery is in your state, regardless of brand.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

So whilst the fuel all comes from the same refinery, what about additives and other stuff they put in to make it specific for shell, bp, caltex etc?

When does that get added?

Or is that all a big con too?

Jon

Sent using Forum Runner

[stuee]

So whilst the fuel all comes from the same refinery, what about additives and other stuff they put in to make it specific for shell, bp, caltex etc?

When does that get added?

Or is that all a big con too?

Jon

Sent using Forum Runner

Most additives are added at the distribution centres. Very few fuels are refined specially at the brands refineries.

The refineries have no control over what other brands or distribution chains add to the fuel once it leaves the refinery (i.e. bio additions, detergents etc).

Fuel often comes from Singapore too, I'm led to believe mostly to central and northern WA and the NT.

[rick130]

What we are forgetting is that a fair bit of diesel is imported too, (mostly Singapore, which should be good fuel) and while technically it's supposed to meet the Oz spec, I've heard talk that in practice this often doesn't occur, depending on where it's sourced from.......

[edit] 40% of diesel is imported :o Facts about Diesel Prices (http://www.aip.com.au/pricing/facts/Facts_about_Diesel_Prices.htm)



To meet Australian diesel demand, over 40% of diesel is imported, mostly from Singapore, Korea and Japan.
Australian refiners must price diesel to be competitive with imports (ie. import parity) from the Asian region; if diesel prices were lower here, this would provide an incentive to Australian refiners to export diesel to Asia.
Growing demand for diesel in Australia will continue to be largely met by imports in the future, further strengthening the price relationship with Asian diesel prices.

[isuzurover]

So whilst the fuel all comes from the same refinery, what about additives and other stuff they put in to make it specific for shell, bp, caltex etc?

When does that get added?

Or is that all a big con too?

Jon

Sent using Forum Runner

If they blend it, they would need to get testing done to make sure it still complies with the fuel quality standard. So as a result, nothing much other than dye is added, unless significant cost savings can be had.

When I worked at a refinery on the east coast, they bought a few tankers of diesel from a chinese refinery. It was originally intended for NZ, however NZ didn't accept it because the sulphur content was too high, so the refinery got it cheap. They made several million $ by cutting it with other feedstocks to bring the sulphur down, however this was done at the refinery, not the distribution centre.



What we are forgetting is that a fair bit of diesel is imported too, (mostly Singapore, which should be good fuel) and while technically it's supposed to meet the Oz spec, I've heard talk that in practice this often doesn't occur, depending on where it's sourced from.......

[edit] 40% of diesel is imported :o Facts about Diesel Prices (http://www.aip.com.au/pricing/facts/Facts_about_Diesel_Prices.htm)



To meet Australian diesel demand, over 40% of diesel is imported, mostly from Singapore, Korea and Japan.
Australian refiners must price diesel to be competitive with imports (ie. import parity) from the Asian region; if diesel prices were lower here, this would provide an incentive to Australian refiners to export diesel to Asia.
Growing demand for diesel in Australia will continue to be largely met by imports in the future, further strengthening the price relationship with Asian diesel prices.


Rick - AFAIK most of that is used by the mines. A lot of mines are large enough to bypass the refineries and source their own tankers of diesel from asia. I know that is the case with RT and BHP in WA.