300tdi horror stories,

[ade]

has anyone got any, there seems to be alot of threads around about TD5's, disco 3 engines, maybe puma engines doing head gaskets, liners, melting pistons etc, what nasty stories do people have of 300tdi failure, destruction etc.

[weeds]

purchased mine with 180k on the clock

head gasket @ 310k from memory previous owner did one around 120k - i wasn'r unhappy

clutch pivot at 240k - wear and tear

the main thing that you need to ensure is done is the timing belt........i do mine every 80k, if you don't know the engines history than replace this promtly

oh the other thing is to fit a low coolant alarm and if you tweak the fuel a EGT gauge

[inside]

Once I tried to accelerate to 100km/h in one... Certainly was horrific.

[langy]

Woodruff key on crank and torquing the crank bolt correctly - I 'inherited' this problem from the PO of my 300tdi Disco. Solution is to use a washer on the crank bolt to give you some room ( to account for normal stretch) so the crank bolt doesn't bottom out in the threaded hole. Otherwise a loose harmonic balancer wriggles the woodruff key around wearing the keyway into an oval.

[PAT303]

Don't know of any but I can make one up if you like?.My mates uncle had a mate that had the 5 and a half cylinder model that ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Pat

[rick130]

I've had the big ends fail.

Regularly serviced, premium, ultra expensive oils, zero wear but the bearing overlay delaminated.

JC has seen a number of crank failures from the same VIN range, so we suspect dodgy bearing shells.

Unimformed/Serg had a catastrophic engine failure.
Religiously serviced by a well known Land Rover workshop, it let go big time.

He'll be along to fill in the details ;)

[isuzurover]

Head gasket at ~260k (new head, timing belt, +++ fitted). While doing the work found bolts corroded to P gasket housing, housing was RS. Lots of time and effort to sort that.

~265k km viscous fan hub failed while towing, it is now pressurising the cooling system...

[rangieman]

Once I tried to accelerate to 100km/h in one... Certainly was horrific.
Mmmm just try to go up a hill at the posted highway speed:eek: , Im still in counseling;)

[uninformed]

I bought my 98 110 CC from a dealer, second hand in 2000 49k on the clock. I had it serviced as per LR schedule every 10,000km on the nose by a private LR specialist. I had a 3 inch madrel bent exhaust with 1 muffler fitted and the fuel turned up by the mech, using pyro gauge to make sure not to much. Firts problem I had was I did a head gasket...the LR temp gauge is useless and gives no warning of over heating. When the HG was replaced the head was stripped and tested...It came back above hardness, valve seats etc looked brand new BUT had an internal crack that was leaking water into number 3....it could not be welded. So new head. Not long after It spun the bearing thats from conrod to crank, ate the crank.... this was at 230k. So I got a 2.8 tgv instead of rebuilding the 300tdi. If I had the time I and new more I probably would have gone an Isuzu with I5 0r 6 speed? I use my vehicle to tow most days for work.

[uninformed]

btw when My truck was in getting a new engine there were 2 other dead tdi's (disco's) both stock...one melted pistons and the other bottom end..

[isuzurover]

...the LR temp gauge is useless and gives no warning of over heating...

You can say that again!!! I think it is binary, as it only seems to have 2 positions: Normal, and Too late your head/gasket is cactus.

[uninformed]

Pat, I dont know why you have to be so suspicsious and negative about other peoples failures. You should be happy that your vehicle has done so well. And for one part it is a reflection of your knowledge and effort to service it.

I believe they are an ok engine, the ones that seem to fair the best are the ones that have been serviced above LR requirements..not all have the skill/time or knowledge to do so...nore should they have to.

[uninformed]

You can say that again!!! I think it is binary, as it only seems to have 2 positions: Normal, and Too late your head/gasket is cactus.

Funny thing is I drive by my new Temp gauge...I have also fitted the mandatory EGT...as my 2.8TGV is stock, and after watching the EGT closely, it rarely goes up to 500c post turbo....But, my Temp gauge will show 1 or 2 degrees change before dangerous EGT...I do watch the EGT on hill climbs with the trailer etc...but mostly I just watch the temp...occasionally looking up to see who I have run over.

[Blknight.aus]

I got a massive dose of diesel snot in the wifes... took me 3 attempts to get rid of it in the end, resulted in This thread (www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/142531-diesel-snot-here-person.html?highlight=diesel+snot)

[PAT303]

Pat, I dont know why you have to be so suspicsious and negative about other peoples failures. You should be happy that your vehicle has done so well. And for one part it is a reflection of your knowledge and effort to service it.

I believe they are an ok engine, the ones that seem to fair the best are the ones that have been serviced above LR requirements..not all have the skill/time or knowledge to do so...nore should they have to.

Do a search on the competition,cracked heads,head gasket failure,bigends fail,injectors,pumps,wiring,ABS faults,they have the lot.The grass isn't greener. Pat

[wrinklearthur]

You would think after rebuilding a few TDi's, I would have parts left over.
No ! I will make a list up of things that I need and I will be posting them in the wanted section of the market place .

The list of damaged parts from 300 TDi's I have here from about the last two years work, is getting longer;
1 cracked head ( p gasket leak, replace P gasket when you do the pump and change the coolant on a regular basis )
1 broken conrod and block with a hole in it's side ( bearing delaminated while the driver was racing a falcon, the extra power he was using was by the wastegate stuck closed )
1 bent conrod ( hydraulic lock from turbo failure, the inside of that motor was black from lack of oil changes )
2 vacuum pump's ( they are the worst arrangement I have ever come across, they rattle loose )
2 turbo's ( one of these is off that motor with the leg out of bed, the other was out of a motor with dirty oil )
4 water pumps ( I suggest you always keep a new one on hand, the bearings are not large enough IMHO )
4 serpentine belt idlers ( the belt canary tells you that the idler is on the way out and it is nearly always the pivot bush that has failed, instead of the actual idler bearing )
1 set of push rods ( their timing belt kit was never done )
1 cracked exhaust manifold ( driver hit water fast while the manifold was glowing hot, I wonder what his EGT would have been at the time? )
1 injector fuel return line hose ( rubbed through by the misplaced engine acoustic cover, my fault this time )
2 alternators, ( dry joint in regulator and the other had crook bearing in it - worn out! )

I challenge anyone who has repaired a similar number of , say high mileage engines from Falcons to show me a list that is any smaller.
.

[bigcarle]

bought my unreg disco with 258k on the clock in 2010 did the timing belt as it had done 90k,i had an EM2 gauge fitted, water pump, regod it ran like a clock and economical to boot, within a few weeks started to use HEAPS of water and the top of the injector pump started to leak diesel bit the bullet and did the head JUST out of reusable range, got new head,gaskets and bolts from turners (brilliant) and had the IP out and sent to repairers. refitted all parts and goes well now, just had a minor water leak that turned out to be the 'P' gasket fixed that and going strong
still a great vehicle requires a bit of thought to drive, maintain and navigate for some of the idiosyncrasy's of the unit but that is what makes it interesting to own and drive and not the jump in , blast off and have mind in lala land type of car we have nowadays :mad:
many thanks to this forum for advice that came my way that gave me support, confidence and saved quite a few dollars

[d2dave]

I should not have read this thread. Mine has done in excess of a third of a million Km's and still going strong.

Dave.

[uninformed]

Do a search on the competition,cracked heads,head gasket failure,bigends fail,injectors,pumps,wiring,ABS faults,they have the lot.The grass isn't greener. Pat

No one was bringing in other brands to this thread Pat.....seems to me to be some sort of justifiable bad engineering.

[keith73]

No horror stories to tell so far its been very reliable:):)

[billnjim]

apart from alternator bushes wearing every 9 months - nothing (have replaced alternator & unsure of wear rate now, sold with plenty of life left in her) was serviced every 10 thousand without fail.

[DiscoMick]

The original coolant overflow bottle used to crack at the joint in the plastic, cooking the engine, but there is an upgraded later bottle which seems OK.

[Jeff]

I have done nearly 300,000 km and replaced a water pump and an injector pump. Neither left us stranded, the injector pump was weeping and needed new seals for rego. I also had a coolant expansion tank split, but luckily heard it hissing before it ran dry. We've had it from new and had it serviced by a Land Rover specialist regularly.

Jeff

:rocket:

[justinc]

IME you can trace most 'Horror stories' to maintenance issues, or lack thereof. Outside of that, we have seen A couple of 1998 model crankshaft/ bearing shell failures at early KM's, 1 porous bore block, and a handful of weird noisy ones that we never managed to shut up but all in all a VERY good, reliable, simple, powerful (For 2.5 litres anyway) and frugal engine. If I couldn't have a 4BD1t anymore I would revert back to a 300Tdi in a flash.
Recently rebirthed one from a rollover and fitted it to a 1997 Disco, it has done 547,000km and is STILL a powerful and economical engine. Had an injector pump at 430K, and always serviced on time since new in 1994. just shows that regular proper maintenance goes a long way to making these engine last. Still doesn't use oil.

JC

[PAT303]

No one was bringing in other brands to this thread Pat.....seems to me to be some sort of justifiable bad engineering.

Justifiable bad engineering????,please Serg,enlighten the masses on which vehicle doesn't have issue's brought about by bad design or engineering. Pat

[uninformed]

Pat, no where was it mentioned to compare brand, just 300tdi's, yet you jumped in with "compare it to the others". For what, to say that its ok because they are on the same level. Yes all brands suffer in one way or another...some more than others.

[uninformed]

JC, one of the other 2 getting done when mine died was also a porous block.

[isuzurover]

Justifiable bad engineering????,please Serg,enlighten the masses on which vehicle doesn't have issue's brought about by bad design or engineering. Pat

Since this thread is about engines rather than vehicles, and since you asked...

The engines I can think of fitted to 4x4s with no known design flaws:

Nissan TD42(T)
Nissan TD27(T)
Isuzu 4JB1(T)
Isuzu 4BD1(T)

[Jojo]

My truck has been receiving regular maintenance and TLC. Despite several issues with the vehicle itself, the engine has never given any cause for concern, returning great economy virtually every day. Passed 300.000kms a while ago, still going strong. I did change the glow plugs (once, at 300.000kms) and the oil and filter (every 10.000kms). I like the 300Tdi!
Cheers

[justinc]

JC, one of the other 2 getting done when mine died was also a porous block.

It was Damn annoying, this vehicle is owned by a great old guy, from new and cared for in an exemplary fashion. one day it started to use water a little bit at a time, couldn't see any external leaks so I wanted to look closer the following week. That weekend it hydrauliced and bent a conrod one morning:(

I removed the head to see a pinhole 3/4 of the way down in number 3 bore, and a sump full of water. It was pretty quick!

I decided not to sleeve it incase any others were cast poorly so I donated a spare block and rod I had and rebuilt the engine for him and now is all OK but when it failed, it had only travelled 145K:(

[wagoo]

I'll always be a financially challenged Luddite I guess. So,If there are any Victorian series owners taking their good but thirsty 2 1/4 litre petrol engines to the tip after fitting a 200 or 300 tdi engines to their vehicle,please give me a yell . I thought about fitting one of those deisels to my hybrid, but when I ask myself if I feel lucky,I look back over my recent history, and the answer is in the negative.:( And after reading this thread, i'd rather put up with high fuel costs, the usage of which i have some control of, than risk being immobilised far from home in need of a couple of thousand dollars worth of parts to get going again. Slow as a wet week indeed,but the 2 1/4 petrol always keeps on going, no matter how much I neglect and abuse it.
Bill.

[rick130]

JC, what's your favourite head gasket ATM ?

Elring composite or laminated shim ?

I want to do a precautionary change very soon, (probably when I do the timing belt)
I burst the heater header tank six weeks ago and pumped all the coolant out as I crested the range here.

[justinc]

JC, what's your favourite head gasket ATM ?

Elring composite or laminated shim ?

I want to do a precautionary change very soon, (probably when I do the timing belt)
I burst the heater header tank six weeks ago and pumped all the coolant out as I crested the range here.

Elring composite rick. Steel shim type only for new decked blocks IME.

JC

[uninformed]

I'll always be a financially challenged Luddite I guess. So,If there are any Victorian series owners taking their good but thirsty 2 1/4 litre petrol engines to the tip after fitting a 200 or 300 tdi engines to their vehicle,please give me a yell . I thought about fitting one of those deisels to my hybrid, but when I ask myself if I feel lucky,I look back over my recent history, and the answer is in the negative.:( And after reading this thread, i'd rather put up with high fuel costs, the usage of which i have some control of, than risk being immobilised far from home in need of a couple of thousand dollars worth of parts to get going again. Slow as a wet week indeed,but the 2 1/4 petrol always keeps on going, no matter how much I neglect and abuse it.
Bill.

Bill, I think it more depends on the vehicle and work load....Mal did a 200tdi/R380 conversion in a 88 soft top...also widened axles and some MD custom alloy flares...it went awesome.

I think they can be a good engine esepcially someone like you that can adress a few things, give proper service and know any little signs that will get sorted before a bigger problem.

I personaly think they dont make a good everyday high load work engine...just my opinion

for you i would go the 200tdi with short bell housing

[DiscoMick]

Didn't the British Army prefer the 300tdi to the Td5 because it was easier to service in remote places?

[uninformed]

DiscoMick, I believe that was LR's reason for 3rd world countries....the uk military had problems with the TD5 regarding electronic noise. They could not cure it...Ill ket Rick130 tell the rest of the story

[roverrescue]

JC,
just to confirm on a decked block with brand spanker head would you opt for steel shim HG?
Im just about to bolt down this 300 rebuild that has been going for a year or three.
Piston protrusion on the decked block limits me to a zero hole (thickest) head gasket.

Still havent triggered on which gasket to put in it...

Steve

[isuzurover]

JC,
just to confirm on a decked block with brand spanker head would you opt for steel shim HG?
Im just about to bolt down this 300 rebuild that has been going for a year or three.
Piston protrusion on the decked block limits me to a zero hole (thickest) head gasket.

Still havent triggered on which gasket to put in it...

Steve

Is that the engine you had the Provent fitted to??? Did I end up giving you the oil analysis results on that one?

In the end, your engine was an outlier that we had to remove to end up with decent models :D

[Casper]

300TDI is a great engine.

Mine has never been split from the trans in 360,000kms, I've done 2 head gaskets, one dew to age and a very hot day, a very long hill and a very heavy trailer but it didn't leave me stranded, the second due to me being cheap and not replacing head bolts or having the head properly checked out and surfaced nor did I re tension the head after initial start and warm up.

This time I have had the head properly checked and surfaced 12 thou (which to me was a bit much) but a slightly thicker steel shim head gasket and all is good so far.

So far in the 200,000kms I have done with this car on the engine,

Lift pump (leaking fittings but had crimped fittings so replaced it and then repaired the old one as a spare)
Vac pump (replaced as I had a spare and I was trying to find a loss in brake booster performance, ended up being the booster so original is now the spare)
Water pump (Leaking at the bearing @ 220,000)
Oil cooler lines vibrated loose while 4wding, lost 6 litres of oil and only had 4 in the back : (
Head Gasket the first time (as described above)
Head Gasket the second time (My fault really)
Injectors (replaced at 300,000kms as removed them for testing and found them to be worn beyond repair, picked up 3 ltr/100kms in doing so)
Valve clearances every 5 to 10,000kms and replaced the tappet caps with the first head gasket change.
Turbo was rebuilt at about 240,000kms as it was getting a little noisy, I didn't notice until I drove a mates and then it annoyed me so I took it to the turbo bloke who stripped it down and said he was surprised I drove it in as it should have disintergrated.

I used to have oil analysis done where I used to work and I could push oil changes out to 20,000kms with a filter change every 10,000kms but change it at 10,000kms now as I no longer have free access to oil analysis.

I'm noticing it is getting a bit fumey now days and there is a bit more oily residue in the intercooler than normal so I think it may be time for a freshen up but it has not had an easy life, I use it flat out for work, it's been used extensively off road in just about every state/territory of Oz, it's towed a full sized 21' tandum van around Oz twice before we bought it and we drag our Camper with it most places we go.
I have had 4.5 tonne of steel on a tandam trailer behind it from Shepparton to Melbourne, I've trailered Series landies to Jeeps and landcruisers behind it and it's recovered a hell of a lot of people from bogs.

It's only ever once left me and my family stuck on the side of the road but that was the transfer case and due to a bearing failure.

Cheers Casper

[isuzurover]

300TDI is a great engine.

[in 360000 km]

...I've done...
...2 head gaskets...
...Lift pump...
...Vac pump...
...Water pump...
...Oil cooler lines...
...Injectors...
...Turbo...



Sorry, I couldn't resist.

By means of a comparison, in ~420000 km in my 4BD1T (full service history and I have owned it from 240k km)

0 head gaskets
0 lift pumps (hand primer though)
0 vac pumps
0 water pumps
0 oil coiler lines
New nozzles on injectors ($200)
2nd hand ($300) turbo fitted at ~300k km as part of T conversion.

nothing else apart from oil, filters, a front main seal and an AC idler bearing...

After owning a 4BD1, my definition of a "great" engine seems to differ from yours...

[rick130]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

By means of a comparison, in ~420000 km in my 4BD1T (full service history and I have owned it from 240k km)

0 head gaskets
0 lift pumps (hand primer though)
0 vac pumps
0 water pumps
0 oil coiler lines
New nozzles on injectors ($200)
2nd hand ($300) turbo fitted at ~300k km as part of T conversion.

nothing else apart from oil, filters, a front main seal and an AC idler bearing...

After owning a 4BD1, my definition of a "great" engine seems to differ from yours...

Much like our TD42T in the Patrol with 385,000km on the clock which we've had since new.
I replaced the water pump twelve months ago 'just in case', as I can't believe the bearings would still be OK and I didn't want SWMBO stranded somewhere.
They were.
Alternator, still original. (I want to get that serviced soon, JIC)
The engines been cocked twice and still hasn't had the head lifted. (fitted new hoses though)
Injectors, still original.
Injector pump's never been touched.
Clutch is still original. :eek:

Every other component on that engine is original/never been touched except consumables and it doesn't have any oil leaks either. Hell, I haven't even lifted the rocker cove to do valve clearances in, maybe, 150,000km ?
I really think premium oils help there as I hardly ever lift the Tdi rocker cover either. :angel:

I've replaced two radiators, one of which, and I suspect both were victims of stray current.

The Tdi, on the other hand has had a clutch @ 222,000 when the fork broke. Everything else was worn anyway and needed changing anyway.
A water pump @ 230,000 or so. Seal and bearing failure.
P gasket failure.
Front alternator bearing failure at roughly the same time. (rear needle roller has been cleaned and re-greased with syntheric grease fairly regularly and it's not the original alt, but had been changed prior to my ownership @ 75,000km)
Valve stem cap failure (I love the thought of shrapnel through my engine :()
Several idler/tensioner bearing failures.
Two new fan belt tensioners (nylon guide/pivot worn out)
(Timing belt and idler/tensioners are service items IMO)
One lift pump (The current Delphi one seems very good)
Several broken inlet manifold gaskets.
Several inlet/exhaust manifold studs gone ta ta's.
A couple of welsch plugs. (which shouldn't happen if the coolant levels, etc are OK, but prior history isn't known, so that one can't be taken as a 'failure')
Bloody oil leaks.
Surprisingly the vacuum pump is still original (oh, ohh, I've said it know :o) as is the IP and injectors and the head gasket.

Big end failure, as already detailed. :(

[roverrescue]

Ben,
The rebuild is to replace the "outlier" 300tdi which is still ticking along in the 130. Sure it uses some oil (5L per 5000km or so - the benefit is I havent bothered doing an oil change in 20,000km figure I do slow changes) - But I have found from extensive testing that you can have no oil on the stick, need 2L to get it on the stick but oil pressure is still maintained ;)
It gets hot on big hills - I pedal back at 115 degrees (alarm on EMS)
But - It still pulls hard, I still flog it up the cape any chance I get.

I still have the provent installed but have chosen to run "filter free" in order to save expensive elements.

Once I have the rebuild done I assume I will change em over but the old worn out one still just works. When I loaner it to people I just make sure the oil is topped up and tell em if the alarm goes off to slow down.

I think in some ways preventative maintenance is similar to some types of medicine. If you go looking hard enough you will find problems... we like to call them 'incidentalomas'
I honestly believe that the reason tojo owners have no maintenance issues is because the oil seals work so the bloody things dont drop oil to encourage the owner to open the bonnet and start looking at things!!!!

300 makes a good jigger IME

btw I use to care alot more when I had a 300 in a disco.

S

[isuzurover]

I will email you a copy of the paper when it is accepted. It will be easy to spot yours...

[roverrescue]

Ben,
you are a better researcher than I ever was... them outliers use to accidently fall off the desk BEFORE publishing back when I was at uni!!!!

I would definately be keen to have a read thogh!

S

[Casper]

Well you all put the mozz on me, no sooner had I said that my 300Tdi was a great engine, It dies.

I had done the head gasket at christmas and also did the timing belt at the same time.

I was having a few issues getting it running right and I'd made some cam timing adjustments and took it for a drive and didn't get home.

It was ok but sluggish and I noticed it seemed to be running a bit hotter than normal and then it over heated.

I let it cool, got some coolant into it and headed home and of course got stuck in traffic with nowhere to pull over.

By the time I pulled off the road........the engine stopped all by it self.....oopps.

I got it going enough to get it home but it has almost no power off boost and is pumping the water out faster than I can get it in so my guess is it's knackered.

So I'm in the market for a cheap V8 auto Disco, Rangie or a County or Stage 1, the key word is cheap, rego and near RWC would be an advantage.

Will happilly use Oakley (Series 3 hardtop) as part payment :p

Cheers Casper

[rick130]

Well you all put the mozz on me, no sooner had I said that my 300Tdi was a great engine, It dies.

[snip]

Cheers Casper

Ouch. :(

[Casper]

Ouch. :(

That was my wallets reaction I had a few other explicits to say.

I should have just put it on a trailer when it first looked at getting hot, I do know better, thats what hurts the most.

Trailer hire $55, new or second hand 300Tdi $500 to $3000, Another car $1000 to $3000, the lesson learned not to be so bloody bull headed and take stupid gambles that I know I wont win.......Priceless.;)

Sorry Couldn't help it.

Cheers Casper

[uninformed]

I may have another to add to this list....not quite a 300tdi and no fault of the manufacture, rather me....and for nothing more than $10 worth of oil

[rangieman]

Well you all put the mozz on me, no sooner had I said that my 300Tdi was a great engine, It dies.

I had done the head gasket at christmas and also did the timing belt at the same time.

I was having a few issues getting it running right and I'd made some cam timing adjustments and took it for a drive and didn't get home.

It was ok but sluggish and I noticed it seemed to be running a bit hotter than normal and then it over heated.

I let it cool, got some coolant into it and headed home and of course got stuck in traffic with nowhere to pull over.

By the time I pulled off the road........the engine stopped all by it self.....oopps.

I got it going enough to get it home but it has almost no power off boost and is pumping the water out faster than I can get it in so my guess is it's knackered.

So I'm in the market for a cheap V8 auto Disco, Rangie or a County or Stage 1, the key word is cheap, rego and near RWC would be an advantage.

Will happilly use Oakley (Series 3 hardtop) as part payment :p

Cheers Casper
Mmmm sorry to hear :eek: im thinking Ls1 out loud:wasntme:

[Casper]

Mmmm sorry to hear :eek: im thinking Ls1 out loud:wasntme:

I'm not confirming nor denying your suspicions.:)

Cheers Casper

[isuzurover]

Ouch. :(

x2 - sorry to hear that.

[Judo]

Bought my D1 at 137k and by the time I got to 140k:

power steering pump died
front and back wheel bearings exploded
heater core leaked out the radiator water and it overheated.

Fixed them, and I've had no problems since. Not really "engine" problems specifically I guess. Next on the list is timing belt since I have no idea when it was done. Just have to figure out how the hell to do it and where to get the special tools needed. Then I reckon I'm due for some solid kms with only oil changes!

[Judo]

P.S. Too many stories of head gaskets here for my liking! Do not want!!

[wrinklearthur]

P.S. Too many stories of head gaskets here for my liking! Do not want!!

Hi Judo

That is the penalty of reducing engine weight by fitting alloy heads, it's a shortened life span for a head gasket and is due to the different expansion rates of the alloy head against the cast iron block.

The other killer for those head gaskets is not changing the coolant mix at least once every two years, this lets corrosion get a hold.
.

[d2dave]

Judo. I have all the tools needed to do the job. You are welcome to borrow them.

Dave.

[loanrangie]

I need to do mine and i have most of the tools except locking pins (can do without) and a mechanism to hold the balancer to undo the crank bolt.

[d2dave]

I need to do mine and i have most of the tools except locking pins (can do without) and a mechanism to hold the balancer to undo the crank bolt.

I have all of this and I am happy to lend.

Dave.

[Judo]

Judo. I have all the tools needed to do the job. You are welcome to borrow them.

Dave.
Cheers mate. I've ordered a few of them online already so I'll decide if I want to fork out for the rest and let you know. Where are you based? Tatura near Shep?

[d2dave]

Judo. Yes, Tatura near Shepp, but I travel to Melb a fair bit, depending where in Melb you are I could drop them off.

Dave.

[loanrangie]

Maybe we could do 2 at the same time ;).

[Judo]

haha I like the way you think. I need to obtain the parts first though. Ordered them from the UK so not sure how long they will take to arrive...

[LRO53]

Hi Judo

That is the penalty of reducing engine weight by fitting alloy heads, it's a shortened life span for a head gasket and is due to the different expansion rates of the alloy head against the cast iron block.

The other killer for those head gaskets is not changing the coolant mix at least once every two years, this lets corrosion get a hold.
.

Correct. To combat this Rover started to use the through bolt head idea in L-Series Diesels, K-Series Petrols and Project Storm Td4,5,6. With great success.

While living in the UK i had a 1995 Rover 420D with 270,000 miles it had only had timing belts done. That's it and an oil change every 8,000-10,000 miles. It never used oil. Sadly the body was almost dead.....

We also had around 3-5 Farmers Td5 90 hard tops with inexcess of 240,000miles with no issues other then regular oil changes. Although one had a cracked head (2002 model) As we used to say just throw - Filters, Oil and Clutchs at them. (Towing over the limit as they like to soon uses clutchs)

You talk to people in the motortrade over there and they say they are now doing less then half the work they did in the mid to late 1990s as the vehicles are getting more reliable. Take the exhaust system on a Tdi. It's steel and in the climate only lasted until it rusted 3-6 years... Then they started to fit stainless ones to Td5/Puma... There is 1999 Defenders still running around on there orgional exhausts. Not good for business's expecting the normal spare parts turn over of the Turbo Diesel, Tdi era..

Now back on subject. I am not a Tdi owner but have a good friend that had a Headgasket go at 327,000km while towing on a hot day. Fair enough. He had the head cracktested and machined. Fitted with brand new bolts. Sadly a week ago this vehicle now at 340,000 1 year later failed on a motorway outside melb. Due to lack of water it seems the system was pressurising and it was not holding the coolent. Sadly this melted a piston and the engine is a total mess.

Other then Headgasket issues it's a bullet proof engine. Just a shame about the timing belt idea. Why Why what was wrong with a chain!

[wrinklearthur]

Just a shame about the timing belt idea. Why Why what was wrong with a chain!

I must join the chorus.
what was wrong with a timing chain?
.

[d2dave]

Rubber belts are far cheaper than a chain. It is the same with a lot of cars also. Most had timing chains(overhead cam cars) in the seventies and eighties and then belts started to appear. Now more cars have belts than chains.

Dave.

[rick130]

If Land Rover did the belt properly in the first place it wouldn't be a problem.

Apparently the HS2.8 has nicely made cast pulleys (much less distortion under load than the pressed tin Tdi ones) and a slightly higher spec belt so it's recommended change interval is 120,000km in South America.

[uninformed]

why why why did Zues put so much helic angle on their replacement gear set. From accounts they are beautifilly made, just not the best design.

[PAT303]

What Rick said,it isn't a problem now as the updated gears come out in '97/'98. Pat

[uninformed]

What Rick said,it isn't a problem now as the updated gears come out in '97/'98. Pat

so a late built 98 tdi should have cast timing gears from factory?

[justinc]

so a late built 98 tdi should have cast timing gears from factory?

No only the crank gear, the cam and fuel pump are still pressed steel.

JC

[loanrangie]

Its slightly ironic that LR went to a chain on the TD5, since the tdi timing cover is enclosed i'm surprised that a chain conversion wasnt done instead over the zues gear conversion.

[uninformed]

Its slightly ironic that LR went to a chain on the TD5, since the tdi timing cover is enclosed i'm surprised that a chain conversion wasnt done instead over the zues gear conversion.

The gears were a great idea and very well made. But from what I understand, the helic angle is what plays havic...and the only reason to go helic is noise. I cant see timing gears making a tdi that much noisier :confused:

[LRO53]

If Land Rover did the belt properly in the first place it wouldn't be a problem.

Apparently the HS2.8 has nicely made cast pulleys (much less distortion under load than the pressed tin Tdi ones) and a slightly higher spec belt so it's recommended change interval is 120,000km in South America.

Your right here. Land Rover did not do a very good job with the belt on the Tdi engines. It wore alot quicker then it should and was stressed at the wrong points. And they stuffed up again on the 300 Tdi early on.

I've seen TdV6 Range Rover Sports, Disco 3s with 120,000 miles on there orgional belts., They have come into have a belt change after 5 years the belts still look like new! Still it's only safe to change them. Ford seem to have the idea.

Td5 would have had a belt as the L-Series Diesel which has the same basic block design/conrods did. But... because they went for EUI Injectors a single belt would not have been enough. So a timing chain it had to be as it was strong enough to drive them.

Belts are very good and cheap but they are no good for low mileage cars as the time factor starts to kick in. I had a friend buy a 2002 Rover 45 with a L-Series Diesel. It had 33,000 miles on the clock.. Never had a belt change. It's 10 years old now? What do you do? Change the belt? Or run the risk that the rubber does not perish. ( He had ended up changing the belt )

[d2dave]

I am currently living my 300 Tdi horror story. I cooked the old girl big time last night. I am now looking for a new head.

Dave.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/img6092com.jpg/)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/img6091r.jpg/)

[Grizzly_Adams]

The gears were a great idea and very well made. But from what I understand, the helic angle is what plays havic...and the only reason to go helic is noise. I cant see timing gears making a tdi that much noisier :confused:

You'd be surprised - ask anyone who has heard mine (she has the Zeus gears - has had for the past 10+ years). I'm often asked if she's running the Isuzu 4BDT1 :eek:

[uninformed]

I am currently living my 300 Tdi horror story. I cooked the old girl big time last night. I am now looking for a new head.

Dave.


http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1686/img6092com.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/img6092com.jpg/)

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8432/img6091r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/img6091r.jpg/)

well its going to cost you "X" amount just to get it checked, about $400 to get it decked cleaned and re built if OK, or just by a new one from Turner's. They seem to have a good reputation.

[wrinklearthur]

X2

Turner Engineering - Remanufacturer of Land Rover Engines and supplier of Land Rover engine parts (http://turner-engineering.co.uk/)

.

[d2dave]

I am not even going to look at repairing it. Paddock spares have brand new at $435 and Turners are $608. Can anyone tell me pros and cons of the two different companies and their heads?

I don't mind paying $173 more if it is a better head. The Turner head is made in Spain. Paddocks do not say where their heads are made.

Dave.

[rick130]

I am not even going to look at repairing it. Paddock spares have brand new at $435 and Turners are $608. Can anyone tell me pros and cons of the two different companies and their heads?

I don't mind paying $173 more if it is a better head. The Turner head is made in Spain. Paddocks do not say where their heads are made.

Dave.

Maybe ask on the UK boards like LR4x4 Dave ?

Mostly they sing the praises of Turners, and Frida, Richard Turner's wife used to post regularly with engine advice on the now defunct LRE board.

[uninformed]

Is $608 for a stock or modified head?

Being made in Spain, they might just be from the same manufacture as the International HS 2.8tgv head :confused:

[d2dave]

$608 is for the stock head. I was wondering myself if they were the same as Paddocks. I would not think that there would be to many companies making TDI heads.
The performance head from Turners is $779.

Dave.

[isuzurover]

I am not even going to look at repairing it. Paddock spares have brand new at $435 and Turners are $608. Can anyone tell me pros and cons of the two different companies and their heads?

I don't mind paying $173 more if it is a better head. The Turner head is made in Spain. Paddocks do not say where their heads are made.

Dave.

I bought a new paddocks head recently. IME they are good quality. Haven't had a Turner's head to compare, however I suspect their stock head would be from the same manufacturer.

[rick130]

Just had a thought (yeah, it hurt)

Is one price excluding VAT and one including ? VAT is now 20% in the UK.

[d2dave]

I bought a new paddocks head recently. IME they are good quality. Haven't had a Turner's head to compare, however I suspect their stock head would be from the same manufacturer.

Did you get all the other stuff from there as well, like gaskets and head bolts. How long did it take to arrive.

Dave.

[d2dave]

Vat is 20%, but all prices I am quoting are pre Vat converted to $Au.

Dave.

[isuzurover]

Did you get all the other stuff from there as well, like gaskets and head bolts. How long did it take to arrive.

Dave.

Yes - bought everything there. It took the parts ~ 1 week to arrive, but took paddocks ~3 weeks to sort the order. I have since found out you need to phone them daily after placing your order online until they ship it.

[DiscoMick]

Ouch! Been there, done that, feel your pain. Mine needed a replacement engine it was so bad.
What caused it - coolant bottle break?

[d2dave]

I left the coolant bottle cap loose and it pumped out the water. I suspect that I might have had minor head problems, as even with no cap it should not pump water out like it did(about 20km of highway driving). I did notice recently that on very hot days I was losing a small amount of coolant from the cap. I thought at the time that the cap was faulty, but now I suspect that I did have head issues.

This makes it not so bad apart from the inconvenience of having to do it when the car tells me, rather than when I am ready to do it, plus having to have it towed home.

Dave.

[wrinklearthur]

Did you get all the other stuff from there as well, like gaskets and head bolts. How long did it take to arrive. Dave.

Delivered by DHL to my door took only three days from Turner.
.

[luke68]

Turners Performance Head with VRS KIT $985. Ordered Tues morning in Melb Fri morning. waiting on customs. Hopefully Monday???
DHL If you want it there in a Hurry!!!!

Question. with these new heads that are fitted with new vlaves and springs, do you need to grind the valves to sit correctly or have they already been done.

Cheers
Luke

[bigcarle]

yep Turners for me too
in late 2010 mine took 4 days from the time i filled their form out and paid via PayPal until it was at my door, should have been sooner but the head landed in Brisbane on a Sunday!
cost all up was $905 door to door including freight and no VAT/GST
i was so impressed i kept the readout
here is the said readout

[d2dave]

I have just got off the phone from Turners. The heads are made by AMC in Spain which makes me think that they would be the same heads that Paddock sell much cheaper.

I have placed an order with Turners as they do a performance version. They get the new head and give it a port and polish. For the sake of a couple of hundred extra I will take any increase in HP that I can get. I also decided on Turners after recommendations from others on this forum of their speedy service.

Whilst I am typing this post I have received an email from DHL confirming that they have received a shipment for me from Turners. This was about one hour after my phone call with them. Total cost, just under 1K.

luke68, I asked the question, and yes these heads are complete, ready to fit.

Dave.

[Casper]

I don't believe you will get too much improvement from a port and polish job on a turbo charged diesel engine, as when the engine is force fed, it doesn't matter to as much a degree what the ports etc are like.

You can get a marked improvement with match porting if there is a large step or if there are tight turns in ports which can be smoothed out but neither of these are much of a problem with a 300Tdi to my knowledge.

Also being a Diesel, you don't have atomisation issues with rough ports so polishing would be pretty much useless as well as far as I know.

It will be interesting to find out what it goes like when you have it together, I would gladly like to eat my words if it goes like a rocket ship.

The turn around time is bloody excellent though and for just under a grand that's making me think I may just rebuild mine now too.

Cheers Casper

[rick130]

I don't believe you will get too much improvement from a port and polish job on a turbo charged diesel engine, as when the engine is force fed, it doesn't matter to as much a degree what the ports etc are like.

[snip]

Cheers Casper

At a wild arsed guess it'll be a throat/seat job.
An inch above and below the valve are the most critical areas for improving flow into the chamber. (bathtub chamber heads can be made to flow much, much better than a chamber in piston head with a poppet valve, but the combustion characteristics of direct injected diesel override any flow issues)

This is something that can be done easily on a CNC machine.

Having said that a 300Tdi has a huge turn right at the inlet port in what I'm assuming is an effort to promote swirl into the chamber.
It has an extremely sharp inside radius, maybe Turners do something there ?

[JohnF]

The original coolant overflow bottle used to crack at the joint in the plastic, cooking the engine, but there is an upgraded later bottle which seems OK.

Have a 1994 disco at home with a cooked 300TDI due to this-- any offers

[uninformed]

Have a 1994 disco at home with a cooked 300TDI due to this-- any offers

$3.50

[wrinklearthur]

Have a 1994 disco at home with a cooked 300TDI due to this-- any offers

I bid $4.00 and one broken series 2A axle.

[d2dave]

yep Turners for me too
in late 2010 mine took 4 days from the time i filled their form out and paid via PayPal until it was at my door, should have been sooner but the head landed in Brisbane on a Sunday!
cost all up was $905 door to door including freight and no VAT/GST
i was so impressed i kept the readout
here is the said readout

In this readout some of the times don't add up. Your head left Heathrow at 7.51 am and arrived at brisbane at 11.43 am on the same day. :confused:

They must have shot it into space, waited for the planet to spin a bit and then landed it in Brisbane.:)

Dave.

[bigcarle]

In this readout some of the times don't add up. Your head left Heathrow at 7.51 am and arrived at brisbane at 11.43 am on the same day. :confused:

They must have shot it into space, waited for the planet to spin a bit and then landed it in Brisbane.:)
yea just noticed that discrepancy i think it should read Nov 05 not Nov 07. it arrived/processed at DHL Heathrow at 7.50am and then left Heathrow DHL 7.51am and they got the days wrong ;)

[d2dave]

I must admit, it is pretty impressive service. I ordered mine(all times used here are Au east coast times) at about 9.30 pm on Mon. It is now on the plane and expected to arrive in Australia around 10 tonight.

Dave.

[Judo]

My only purchase for comparison is from LRDirect in the UK and it arrived 6 business days after I ordered through their website. I'm pretty damn happy with that.

[bigcarle]

Have a 1994 disco at home with a cooked 300TDI due to this-- any offers
what the hell, i will go $10 :D;)

[luke68]

Got the old girl running again. did the complete top end clean/rebuild.
Turners performance head, new hoses, new water pump. Radiator rodded.( Rad shop said it didn't need it, was clean!). Flushed and cleaned Intercooler. Turbo checked and bearings ok. Cleaned everything before fitting new head.
Bleeding the cooling system is a PITA. You'd think that they would have made the filler hole on top of the thermostat bigger!
Tentatively took it for a spin around the streets seemed ok, kept very close eye on temp guage. Finally got heat into the heater core, NICE!!
Put a thermometer into the expansion tank. Temp range 52-57 degrees.
Gradually went up in speed and revs.
TURNERS Performance head!!! Bloody great mate. You can feel the extra HP and the turbo sings a lot louder and earlier. Around1500/1600rpm.
Going to tinker with the fuel and possibly turbo boost once I have the EGT Guage installed.

One other benefit of the new head. It's a lot quieter in the tappets/valves. Don't need the crappy sound deadener cover anymore.

Cheers
Luke!!

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Luke

That's good news about the head, I will keep it in mind incase when I need another one myself.
.

[luke68]

When I think back to when it possibly started. The water pump was starting to leak so I Plugged up the two holes with pop riverts and this stopped the leaking for about 7 months. This in turn had caused a pressure build up in the cooling system and cracked one of the heater hoses on the back of the motor. Couldn't see it until all the water was missing. 1st overheating. 2nd overheating 15 minutes later when I had refilled the system with water to get me home. Put coolant in after fixing hose with joiner. (Temp fix). Started to lose water thru the w/pump bearing on/off over the next couple of months. No big deal just kept topping up. No overheating issues.
At this time I noticed an excessive amount of oil from the rocker cover was getting into the turbo and intercooler. Should of seen the writing on the wall? Managed to get the car from Darwin to Melb with caravan in tow and drive around melb for 2 weeks before the symptoms started again but on a daily basis. Possible 3rd overheating.
4th and final overheating was towing a moving trailer from the west Melb to the Dandenongs. The old girl finally said enough is enough.
thought about scrapping it and getting a D2a, but the sentimentalist in me said no. Wife thinks I'll be buried with the disco. In the end didn;t cost as much as I thought. Helps when you do all the work yourself and not some ripoff mechanic that charges $150/hr or more.
A few more things to get done to make her good as new.
Headlining, Timing belt, A-frame Balljoint. Maybe new springs? Re-Spray.

NOTE: If you have excessive oil in intercooler, and/or oil around the rocker cover cap get your headgasket checked and a compression check. Will save a lot of grief later

Cheers!!!:)

[d2dave]

You were brave to take the Disco from Darwin to Melb and very lucky to make it. The hole in the water pump is designed to stop the water from getting into the water pump bearing should the seal fail, as yours did. You are lucky that the water pump lasted the distance.

If you were getting pressure build up the gasket /head was already gone. Plugging the holes in the water pump would have made no difference.

Dave.

[Tank]

When I think back to when it possibly started. The water pump was starting to leak so I Plugged up the two holes with pop riverts and this stopped the leaking for about 7 months. This in turn had caused a pressure build up in the cooling system and cracked one of the heater hoses on the back of the motor. Couldn't see it until all the water was missing. 1st overheating. 2nd overheating 15 minutes later when I had refilled the system with water to get me home. Put coolant in after fixing hose with joiner. (Temp fix). Started to lose water thru the w/pump bearing on/off over the next couple of months. No big deal just kept topping up. No overheating issues.
At this time I noticed an excessive amount of oil from the rocker cover was getting into the turbo and intercooler. Should of seen the writing on the wall? Managed to get the car from Darwin to Melb with caravan in tow and drive around melb for 2 weeks before the symptoms started again but on a daily basis. Possible 3rd overheating.
4th and final overheating was towing a moving trailer from the west Melb to the Dandenongs. The old girl finally said enough is enough.
thought about scrapping it and getting a D2a, but the sentimentalist in me said no. Wife thinks I'll be buried with the disco. In the end didn;t cost as much as I thought. Helps when you do all the work yourself and not some ripoff mechanic that charges $150/hr or more.
A few more things to get done to make her good as new.
Headlining, Timing belt, A-frame Balljoint. Maybe new springs? Re-Spray.

NOTE: If you have excessive oil in intercooler, and/or oil around the rocker cover cap get your headgasket checked and a compression check. Will save a lot of grief later

Cheers!!!:)
Maybe the rip-off mechanic @ $150/hour would have replaced the water pump when it first showed signs that it was on the way out, therefore saving you a heap of cash, Regards Frank.

[luke68]

Yep I know, my fault for neglecting the engine. One thing about living in Darwin. THE COST. Hence we moved back to Melb. Yes Melb is expensive but not as bad as up there. Hence not a lot of money to spend on car as all your hard earned goes towards raising 3 kids and the mortgage.
The mortgage was cheaper than renting.
To rent our house in Darwin would have been about $650-700/week, mortage was $600/week.
Now have better life and less costs. Plus a working Disco that will last me another 300000kms.

[d2dave]

I must admit, it is pretty impressive service. I ordered mine(all times used here are Au east coast times) at about 9.30 pm on Mon. It is now on the plane and expected to arrive in Australia around 10 tonight.

Dave.

I was a day out with my calculations. It has just cleared customs in Melb at 11.09 pm, Melb time.

Dave.

[Judo]

The time has come to add my horror story. :o

Went away for the weekend with some friends. Left Melbourne with 4 of us in the Disco. We got the other side of Bairnsdale and the temp gauge got above the half way point (normal temp), so I stopped and coolant was boiling out the overflow tank through the cap thread. Let it cool down, only managed to get 1L of new water in and noticed it bubbling air back into the overflow tank.

The air bubbles in the overflow tank should have told me to stop driving...

Ran the engine at decent revs while parked, a little more air bubbled out and couldn't get it to run hot again, so we decided to try driving again. Took it easy for a few Kms staring at the temp gauge and pulled over the second it looked like it was creeping over normal. Yep, overheating again. I have RACV, so I called and the mechanic who arrived told me what I didn't want to hear. He bled the air out and said if it happens again, it's a head gasket.

More air in the cooling lines pretty quick, but managed to drive at 1500 revs in whatever gear I could without working the engine too hard and made it to Buchan for the weekend.

Had a lovely weekend and the 4 of us had to get rides back to Melbourne with other people. The Disco is at the local mechanics workshop in Buchan. He's going to get the head checked and let me know the test results.

300TDI with 148k on the clock. Rubbish. :(:(

[uninformed]

Judo, 148k isnt much.

How old is the vehcile?
How often is it serviced?
Have you ever replaced or rodded out the radiator?
How often do you change coolant?
Have you turned up the fuel or boost?
Do you have a bull bar with driving lights etc?

[Judo]

It's a 1995. I purchased only about 14,000kms ago, so all the more annoying for me really.

Service book has a stamp every 10k from new, but never serviced at LR, just some random workshop with no indication of what work they actually did. I've tried calling them to get the service history, but they only file records by rego, and the rego was changed when I bought it, so they couldn't help me. *shakes fist* Rather frustrating to know the records are there, but I can't get to them!

No fuel boost stuff as far as I know, but it does have a heavy bull bar with winch. I suspect the previous owner gave it a hard time and did a lot of towing. (Came with tow bar and electric brake controller installed). I'm slowly discovering a whole bunch of stuff that indicates a hard life and cheap servicing.

[uninformed]

If it is the head gasket, and it sounds like it is, you will need the head checked for hardness, crack and leak tested. I would at the very least, get the radiator out and end tanks removed and rodded out if ok. New thermostat as a matter of coarse. If you dont have a EGT gauge I would get one installed.

Does anyone know if the Disco temp gauge is like the defender gauge as in it takes about +15c to get it to START to move off the "normal" position?

I asked about the bullbar as to if it or things like driving lights are blocking air flow.

[Judo]

Thanks, some good tips there. The mechanic was quick to explain that the head needs to be checked for all those things and would report back to me. So I'm at least happy he understands what is required. There was also something he said that made me think he's seen a Disco with these problems before.... I think his words were, "These things should be banned", after I explained the situation. He certainly wasn't a Landy man, that's for sure...

Also, based on my experience, I would be pretty confident in saying the Disco gauge takes a lot to move off normal temp - which is why everyone says to get an EGT gauge. It's on my list, but the "preventative maintenance works curve" is behind the "things breaking curve". I.E. I'm feeling quite jaded and cynical this week. ;)

[uninformed]

dont worry, I know the feeling all to well.

If you have a black plastic expansion tank, get it change for the white/opaque type or even aftermarket aluminium. The black ones split open and dump the coolant :(

Cooling system is marginal so needs to be VERY well looked after. Guys here are recommending Rad removal and rodding with every timing belt at 80k. EGT will tell you some of the story, but for me, I have found that it seems to opperate in the safe zone, but I can watch the cooling temp move and I use both to drive by.

I think JC has recommended the metal head gasket if the head is decked and the composite if it hasnt. You may want to ask him.

BTW I am far from an expert, so take with a grain of salt

[PAT303]

K's mean nothing,the vehicles 17 years old and I'd bet a carton the viscous is nackered at the very least. Pat

[uninformed]

K's mean nothing,the vehicles 17 years old and I'd bet a carton the viscous is nackered at the very least. Pat

good call Pat. Are they servicable or just replacement? what is the best way to check them?

[rick130]

good call Pat. Are they servicable or just replacement? what is the best way to check them?

Replacement only.

At least they are fairly priced, unlike some Nissan Patrol and TLC bits.

A viscous clutch and fan blade for the Patrol are insanely priced in comparison, as are heater hoses and you can't get aftermarket heater hoses either, only genuine.

[PAT303]

good call Pat. Are they servicable or just replacement? what is the best way to check them?

Cheap from the UK,really cheap from a Ford wrecker. Pat

[PAT303]

Replacement only.

At least they are fairly priced, unlike some Nissan Patrol and TLC bits.

A viscous clutch and fan blade for the Patrol are insanely priced in comparison, as are heater hoses and you can't get aftermarket heater hoses either, only genuine.

Tell me about it,a mates Patrol started overheating a few weeks back and the viscous spins free,the brand new one lasted a fortnight before it started overheating again and it spins free too,POS.We used to tap two holes on opposite sides of the hub and fill them with Toyota fluid until full and loctite grub screws into the holes. Pat

[uninformed]

Cheap from the UK,really cheap from a Ford wrecker. Pat

what year and make Ford's? Are the Ford fan the EXACT same as the LR unit?

[rick130]

At least the TD42T one can be pulled apart and re-filled, but there will come a time when the hub bearing will fail and then it's $$$$$ :(

[PAT303]

what year and make Ford's? Are the Ford fan the EXACT same as the LR unit?

Straight screw on,the fans are different so replace the lot,mines from an EL? I think.A quick look at the threads will tell you the one,dime a dozen also. Pat

[d2dave]

Can't be off an EL as they had thermo's. ED was the last Falcon that had Viscous. This is for six cyl, not sure what V8's had though.

Dave.

[rick130]

Can't be off an EL as they had thermo's. ED was the last Falcon that had Viscous. This is for six cyl, not sure what V8's had though.

Dave.

And some ED aftermarket ones didn't work either (and I'm talking large name brands like Dayco)
Genuine is the only way to go there.

Dad's ED is sitting in the yard here, I'll spin it off and compare it to a spare LR 300Tdi I have and post the photo's

[Disco_owner]

97 300tdi with 200k km on the clock , I have regularly serviced mine and still have the original black expansion tank in the vehicle , i did install a low coolant alarm a while ago , I clean the radiator once a year , timing belt replaced at 120k. no major issues other than the clutch master and clutch plate replaced at 140k.

[uninformed]

Disco owner, do you remove and rod out, or just pressure flush?

[Disco_owner]

I just pressure flush it , I haven't had the radiator rodded on my vehicle yet since I owned it.

[PAT303]

And some ED aftermarket ones didn't work either (and I'm talking large name brands like Dayco)
Genuine is the only way to go there.

Dad's ED is sitting in the yard here, I'll spin it off and compare it to a spare LR 300Tdi I have and post the photo's

The Ford fan on my Tdi's been there for 5 years or so so I know it works,I would not fit an unknown brand or type. Pat

[PAT303]

Can't be off an EL as they had thermo's. ED was the last Falcon that had Viscous. This is for six cyl, not sure what V8's had though.

Dave.

It's got the model on it but it's at a friends as her vehicles getting new CV's so can't check. Pat

[PAT303]

I just pressure flush it , I haven't had the radiator rodded on my vehicle yet since I owned it.

With yearly flushing it won't need rodding. Pat

[uninformed]

Pat, with yearly flushing, how long would you expect out of the OEM radiator?

[PAT303]

Mines as good as it ever was after 14 years.As I've said a million and one times before a cent spent on maintenance saves a dollar in repairs. Pat

[uninformed]

I was getting mine flushed every 12 -18 months. It was competely fudged at 200k/11years old. Second one lasted me 80k and the fins corroded :confused:

[rick130]

I was getting mine flushed every 12 -18 months. It was competely fudged at 200k/11years old. Second one lasted me 80k and the fins corroded :confused:

But maintenance won't/cant stop the fins corroding on the outside, that's a material/environment thing.

Had a look at the Falcon and I'm not pulling the fan out :angel:
It isn't as easy/straightforward to manoeuvre around/past the shroud as it is on the Defender.

[PAT303]

I was getting mine flushed every 12 -18 months. It was competely fudged at 200k/11years old. Second one lasted me 80k and the fins corroded :confused:

You spend alot of time at the beach but don't you?,salt water+LR=corrosion. Pat

[uninformed]

yes the fins I am guessing due to parking at the beach while surfing/paddling. But I figured I would have got more than 2-3 years from an ADRAD?? I will try and wash the new one more carefully. I was more saying that I hadnt had the run with my OEM one that you had...The inside of the tubes was really bad.

But I would not say that regular maintenacne is a bad thing, of coarse, just some dont have the good return other do. One thing is for sure, the more things break or I fug up, the more I learn. I really need to make up a worksheet with every thing on it for service intervals, LR schedule stuff and the other stuff guys like Pat, JC, Rick etc have added as good practice.

[scarry]

Also the juices out of insects help corrode the radiator fins.Regular hose out with fresh water helps reduce corrosion.

[uninformed]

funny things is i did 7 Fraiser Isl trips on the OEM radiator, all 5 days +....No Isl trips on the ADRAD, But has been parked right at beach 2-4 times a week for sometimes up to 5hrs....

I have the AC condensor infront of Rad and I/C, any tips for cleaning those behind it?

[slug_burner]

I think your pushing the proverbial up hill if washing bugs off and trying to remove salt residue of your radiator is meant to give a longer life out of a radiator when your down the beach on a regular basis. Your always going to be at it and insect get caught all the time. Understandable if your down the beach for a week or two then you give it a clean when you get home after your holidays but if your down all the time, your going to be at it all the time and not sure for what return. Probably cheaper to replace the radiator than pay for the water and your time hosing the salt off.

In order to keep you cooling system at its best you would need to ensure that the coolant/inhibitor is not spent and that can be checked via litmus paper to check the pH or just change it at recommended intervals. Washing the radiator from my view is worthwhile when what you are washing off is impeding the airflow. If you got a big dose of mud or a swarm of locust it would be a good idea to remove the blockage. Bur a layer of oxide? It will increase the thermal resistance of the metal on the radiator but I suspect this will be marginal and probably on a par with a good paint job. So unless the salt air is resulting in the formation of salt crystal that impede the airflow I'd say that your p1ss1ng in the ocean.

[DiscoMick]

The original radiator on my 300tdi lasted 15 years and was still working, but would rise under heavy loads, so I replaced it before heading for the Cape two years ago.

[wagoo]

funny things is i did 7 Fraiser Isl trips on the OEM radiator, all 5 days +....No Isl trips on the ADRAD, But has been parked right at beach 2-4 times a week for sometimes up to 5hrs....

I have the AC condensor infront of Rad and I/C, any tips for cleaning those behind it?
Radiator corrosion on series Landrovers was relatively rare compared to later versions that were insulated from the chassis/battery earth via rubber mountings. I recall a suggested modification back in the era of the first 110's to run an earthing strap from the rad to the batteries negative terminal or a reliable earth on the chassis.
Bill.

[PAT303]

Defender rads are rubber mounted. Pat

[wagoo]

Defender rads are rubber mounted. Pat
Then perhaps earthing them is worth a try.
Bill.

[wrinklearthur]

Radiator corrosion on series Landrovers was relatively rare compared to later versions that were insulated from the chassis/battery earth via rubber mountings. I recall a suggested modification back in the era of the first 110's to run an earthing strap from the rad to the batteries negative terminal or a reliable earth on the chassis.
Bill.

Hi Bill

I agree that earthing the radiator, will stop electrolysis and associated corrosion of the core's outside, with the side benefit of shielding some radio noise .

My thoughts are that it may then cause a problem inside the cooling system, unless there is a sacrificial plate.

I am now at the limit of my knowledge with this, if there is a person on this forum, that has spent their four years at Uni studying the effects of positive hydrogen ions, I for one would like to know a little more about the prevention of electrolysis around the cooling system of engines.
.

[d2dave]

The phenomenon is known as 'stray current corrosion. An earth strap to the radiator should stop this.

Dave.

[wagoo]

I wonder if anyone including some engine manufacturers really know all there is to know about electolysis or cavitation/stress corrosion Arthur, when I see things like well serviced Isuzu 4BD1s with pin holes from behind the water pump through into number 1 cylinder. Or when I worked at an engine reconditioners some years back, we dissected a near new but scrap Ford 7.3 PowerStroke deisel block to reveal severe corrosion near the top of the cylinders,in the water jacket side, just below the head mounting surface. It was suggested by the Engine technician that microscopic expansion and contraction of the cylinders was occurring on the compression and power strokes, causing stress corrosion.These issues may have been addressed in the years since I left the trade, but why weren't they picked up during the engines design and development testing stages?
Bill.

[bee utey]

I wonder if anyone including some engine manufacturers really know all there is to know about electolysis or cavitation/stress corrosion Arthur, when I see things like well serviced Isuzu 4BD1s with pin holes from behind the water pump through into number 1 cylinder. Or when I worked at an engine reconditioners some years back, we dissected a near new but scrap Ford 7.3 PowerStroke deisel block to reveal severe corrosion near the top of the cylinders,in the water jacket side, just below the head mounting surface. It was suggested by the Engine technician that microscopic expansion and contraction of the cylinders was occurring on the compression and power strokes, causing stress corrosion.These issues may have been addressed in the years since I left the trade, but why weren't they picked up during the engines design and development testing stages?
Bill.

Back in the 80's I went to Regency TAFE college and one unit was on corrosion protection and failures of inhibitors. Various brands were highlighted for their failure to prevent cavitation corrosion and the reasons why explained. So this is old hat, engineers should know this. Accountants don't, which is why cheap coolants still surface in industry.

[rick130]

Hi Bill

I agree that earthing the radiator, will stop electrolysis and associated corrosion of the core's outside, with the side benefit of shielding some radio noise .
[snip]
.


The phenomenon is known as 'stray current corrosion. An earth strap to the radiator should stop this.

Dave.

Stray current and subsequent electrolysis is far more common in aluminium radiators where it's not unknown to eat through a core in a matter of weeks, regardless of coolant used.

I've lost two Patrol radiators go it, the first time using prestone coolant, the second using the best/latest propylene glycol/HOAT coolant Cummins/Fleetgaurd are currently using.

[isuzurover]

Coolant would be highly conductive and the block is earthed. I cannot see how this could be an issue.

I am not however a corrosion chemist, though I know someone who is - I will have to ask him...

[Judo]

Coolant would be highly conductive and the block is earthed. I cannot see how this could be an issue.

I am not however a corrosion chemist, though I know someone who is - I will have to ask him...
Is coolant really conductive? That really surprises me. I thought one of the reasons for using distilled water is that it's non-conductive, thus reduces corrosion. If the coolant additive is conductive, then aren't we back to square one?

[Judo]

Just thinking about it more.....

I'm no expert either, but logic tells me that if coolant is non-conductive and the radiator is isolated (not grounded), then in theory there is no way for the radiator to corrode from electrolysis.

The idea is to create no way for electricity to flow in the objects. Grounding the radiator or having conductive coolant (Eg. non distilled water) would destroy all this...

Thoughts?

[wrinklearthur]

Coolant would be highly conductive and the block is earthed. I cannot see how this could be an issue.

I am not however a corrosion chemist, though I know someone who is - I will have to ask him...

Corrosion was explained to me this way, you can store sulphuric acid in 200 litre steel drums (44's for us mature types) and the drum will last for ages.
Then you can store distilled water in 200 litre drums and again those drums will last without problem.
But when you mix a drop of sulphuric acid into the distilled water in that same drum, the drum will eat out within weeks.
.

[rick130]

I'm not sure what all this theorising about stray current is for, it's a known, common problem and is easily measured with an analogue DC volt meter. :confused:

Once you fix the bad earth, wherever it is (and it's usually on the block) no more eating away of the radiator.

Earthing a radiator is only done if you can't pinpoint the original earth issue, so it's really only a crutch.

Judo, The Patrol rad is plastic tanked and rubber mounted yet they eat out if an earth is bad.
Commodores, Falcons, Japanese cars, trucks, they all do it and the radiators are constructed similarly.

In that case, aluminium is more reactive than the other metals in the system, so it disappears faster.

No coolant on earth can protect against stray current.

[wagoo]

Radiator corrosion on series Landrovers was relatively rare compared to later versions that were insulated from the chassis/battery earth via rubber mountings.
Bill.

Regardless of the various interpretations of the science,How do we explain the above? Series rads are hard bolted, read earthed to the body/chassis and last for decades, aside from expansion/contraction fatigue cracks in the top tanks. Could the all iron construction of the 2.25 engine have something to do with the relative lack of galvanic corrosion?
Bill.

[Judo]

It really only leaves the construction material of the engine and radiator doesn't it.

[isuzurover]

Corrosion was explained to me this way, you can store sulphuric acid in 200 litre steel drums (44's for us mature types) and the drum will last for ages.
Then you can store distilled water in 200 litre drums and again those drums will last without problem.
But when you mix a drop of sulphuric acid into the distilled water in that same drum, the drum will eat out within weeks.
.

Like most simple explanations or examples, that one is wrong.

Here is a graph of the corrosion of carbon steel by H2SO4 solutions as a function of concentration and temperature.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1086.jpg

And here is a graph of corrosion rate of iron as a function of pH. Note that you need to go below 4 for any significant corrosion to occur.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

I suggest you try your experiment. Get a new 44gal drum and fill it with distilled water. Then add a drop of the most concentrated H2SO4 you can find... I suspect the drum will last years rather than weeks - especially if it is a room temperature and not stirred or aerated artificially.

[wrinklearthur]

Just thinking about it more.....
I'm no expert either, but logic tells me that if coolant is non-conductive and the radiator is isolated (not grounded), then in theory there is no way for the radiator to corrode from electrolysis.
The idea is to create no way for electricity to flow in the objects. Grounding the radiator or having conductive coolant (Eg. non distilled water) would destroy all this... Thoughts?

Maybe the coolant is non-conductive to direct current, but neither is the dielectric of a capacitor.

So are we looking at a capacitive type of action that allows alternating currents to pass but stops direct current?

Direct current is needed for electrolysis to work and then a alternating current would have to be rectified with a diode junction.

Now for the interesting bit, ask some old returned soldiers that where stuck in one place during the war, just how they got on making a crystal radio set, when they didn't have any germanium crystal, --they used a rusty safety razor blade as the detector or diode junction.

What would cause the alternating currents inside a water jacket?
Some movement of a magnetic field, powered by the vibrations of the motor perhaps?

That wouldn't explain corrosion in a vehicle that has been sitting for years,
so what forces had been acting there?
.

[wagoo]

Earthing a radiator is only done if you can't pinpoint the original earth issue, so it's really only a crutch.
.
Crutches are sometimes very effective.Take a one legged persons crutch away while they are standing and see what happens.
In many instances, mainly in the past the antiroll bar was a crutch for a vehicle with poorly designed suspension or weight distribution.
Bill.

[isuzurover]

Regardless of the various interpretations of the science,How do we explain the above? Series rads are hard bolted, read earthed to the body/chassis and last for decades, aside from expansion/contraction fatigue cracks in the top tanks. Could the all iron construction of the 2.25 engine have something to do with the relative lack of galvanic corrosion?
Bill.

IME, rubber mounted ISUZU 110 rads last just as long as hard bolted series rads. I suspect you are right that it is the metals that are usually the issue.

[wagoo]

IME, rubber mounted ISUZU 110 rads last just as long as hard bolted series rads. I suspect you are right that it is the metals that are usually the issue.

I wonder if the old alloy head 6 cylinder Landy radiators suffered higher corrosion rates?
Bill.

[wrinklearthur]

Like most simple explanations or examples, that one is wrong.

Here is a graph of the corrosion of carbon steel by H2SO4 solutions as a function of concentration and temperature.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1086.jpg

And here is a graph of corrosion rate of iron as a function of pH. Note that you need to go below 4 for any significant corrosion to occur.
http://www.corrosionist.com/effect%20%20of%20pH%20on%20iron%20corrosion%20rate .jpg

I suggest you try your experiment. Get a new 44gal drum and fill it with distilled water. Then add a drop of the most concentrated H2SO4 you can find... I suspect the drum will last years rather than weeks - especially if it is a room temperature and not stirred or aerated artificially.

Stray currents in the milking shed, now that's something I do know about!
Steel pipe work that has been galvanised mixed with concrete ( calcium ), water, cows urine ( acid ) and cows faeces ( all sorts of organic compounds ) , all of which are acting as a generator for stray currents.

Mate! the times that I have seen that situation get out of hand !!!
Cows do not like getting a zap or tingle on their teats when you are putting the cups on.
Keep the floor washed down and that's the end of the problem.

That is a voltage generated by electrolysis that is definitely there and it's almost impossible to detect with a multimeter.
.

[Judo]

The time has come to add my horror story. :o

Went away for the weekend with some friends. Left Melbourne with 4 of us in the Disco. We got the other side of Bairnsdale and the temp gauge got above the half way point (normal temp), so I stopped and coolant was boiling out the overflow tank through the cap thread. Let it cool down, only managed to get 1L of new water in and noticed it bubbling air back into the overflow tank.

The air bubbles in the overflow tank should have told me to stop driving...

Ran the engine at decent revs while parked, a little more air bubbled out and couldn't get it to run hot again, so we decided to try driving again. Took it easy for a few Kms staring at the temp gauge and pulled over the second it looked like it was creeping over normal. Yep, overheating again. I have RACV, so I called and the mechanic who arrived told me what I didn't want to hear. He bled the air out and said if it happens again, it's a head gasket.

More air in the cooling lines pretty quick, but managed to drive at 1500 revs in whatever gear I could without working the engine too hard and made it to Buchan for the weekend.

Had a lovely weekend and the 4 of us had to get rides back to Melbourne with other people. The Disco is at the local mechanics workshop in Buchan. He's going to get the head checked and let me know the test results.

300TDI with 148k on the clock. Rubbish. :(:(
^^^ Update

Spoke to the mechanic and job is complete. Decked the head a little and put on a new gasket. He is sure the head has been removed before. He also said it had TTY bolts which he replaced.

Head removed more than once at 147k on the clock? :o

I think I'll be buying an EGT gauge...

[DiscoMick]

Aren't 300tdi radiators brass? Or have I got that wrong?

[PAT303]

I wonder if the old alloy head 6 cylinder Landy radiators suffered higher corrosion rates?
Bill.

Mines so old all the paints peeled off and the hoses have glued themslves to the outlet/inlet but it's still holding coolant.Coolant goes off over time and I think the main reason we are having issue's today is because of long life coolant,making it go 5 years is a laugh just like filled for life gearbox's and 20,000k oil changes. Pat

[PAT303]

^^^ Update

Spoke to the mechanic and job is complete. Decked the head a little and put on a new gasket. He is sure the head has been removed before. He also said it had TTY bolts which he replaced.

Head removed more than once at 147k on the clock? :o

I think I'll be buying an EGT gauge...

It could have done a timing belt in the past,a 95 model would have the non flanged gears,sprockets so it's a good guess,when they originally did belts removing the head was a given. Pat

[rick130]

Crutches are sometimes very effective.Take a one legged persons crutch away while they are standing and see what happens.
In many instances, mainly in the past the antiroll bar was a crutch for a vehicle with poorly designed suspension or weight distribution.
Bill.

Would it help if I mentioned I added an earth to the radiator anyway :D

I reckon the t/stat housing should be cheaper to replace if it does it again ;)

[rick130]

Mines so old all the paints peeled off and the hoses have glued themslves to the outlet/inlet but it's still holding coolant.Coolant goes off over time and I think the main reason we are having issue's today is because of long life coolant,making it go 5 years is a laugh just like filled for life gearbox's and 20,000k oil changes. Pat

I did plenty of 20,000km oil changes on the Patrol Pat and it's still travelling like a new one @ near 400,000km without a spanner on it (touch wood)

I reckon extended life coolants are good too, you shouldn't get any buildup of anything if it's all clean to begin with.

[slug_burner]

The use of distilled water is to try and reduce the dissolved crap in the water which can form scale or perhaps an acidic mix depending on what is dissolved in the water. Coolant is basic (opposite of acidic), the more basic the greater the abundance of H3O+ ions. The presence of ions in water provides the means by which to carry charge (current = movement of charge). So the presence of unspent coolant also provides charge carriers. Therefore, no, coolant is not there to prevent currents. If anything it will facilitate the flow of charge through the cooling system.


Difference between series cooling systems and more modern cars is not restricted to the method of mounting (insulated/isolate or via conductive hard metal to metal mounts), the mix of metals between iron blocks/alloy heads and radiators is more likely to be a contributor to corroding radiators.

[d2dave]

My TDI horror story has come to an end. Finished fitting new head and TM4 watchdog. The old girl is again purring like a kitten and this makes me happy.:D
My Disco is like a part of me and when it is broken I feel pain:(

Dave.

[Judo]

Congrats Dave. Mine is also now running with a new head gasket. Feels good! :D

[Casper]

The use of distilled water is to try and reduce the dissolved crap in the water which can form scale or perhaps an acidic mix depending on what is dissolved in the water. Coolant is basic (opposite of acidic), the more basic the greater the abundance of H3O+ ions. The presence of ions in water provides the means by which to carry charge (current = movement of charge). So the presence of unspent coolant also provides charge carriers. Therefore, no, coolant is not there to prevent currents. If anything it will facilitate the flow of charge through the cooling system.


Difference between series cooling systems and more modern cars is not restricted to the method of mounting (insulated/isolate or via conductive hard metal to metal mounts), the mix of metals between iron blocks/alloy heads and radiators is more likely to be a contributor to corroding radiators.

The last bit is correct but using de-ionised water or distilled water will not stop corrosion in the engine or stop your radiator from damage.

From Wiki,(easier than typing it out myself)

Most automotive engines are "water"-cooled to remove waste heat, although the "water" is actually antifreeze/water mixture and not plain water. The term engine coolant is widely used in the automotive industry, which covers its primary function of convective heat transfer for internal combustion engines. When used in an automotive context, corrosion inhibitors are added to help protect vehicles' radiators, which often contain a range of electrochemically incompatible metals (aluminium, cast iron, copper, brass, solder, et cetera). Water pump seal lubricant is also added.
Antifreeze was developed to overcome the shortcomings of water as a heat transfer fluid. In some engines freeze plugs are placed in areas of the engine block where coolant flows in order to protect the engine from freeze damage if the ambient temperature drops below the freezing point of the antifreeze/water mixture. These should not be confused with core plugs, whose purpose is to allow removal of sand used in the casting process of engine blocks (core plugs will be pushed out if the coolant freezes, though).
On the other hand, if the engine coolant gets too hot, it might boil while inside the engine, causing voids (pockets of steam), leading to localized hot spots and the catastrophic failure of the engine. If plain water were to be used as an engine coolant, it would promote galvanic corrosion. Proper engine coolant and a pressurized coolant system can help obviate the problems which make plain water incompatible with automotive engines. With proper antifreeze a wide temperature range can be tolerated by the engine coolant, such as −34 °F (−37 °C) to +265 °F (129 °C) for 50% (by volume) propylene glycol diluted with water and a 15 psi pressurized coolant system.[1][2]
Early engine coolant antifreeze was methanol (methyl alcohol), still used in windshield washer fluid. As radiator caps were vented, not sealed, the methanol was lost to evaporation, requiring frequent replenishment to avoid freezing of the coolant. Methanol also accelerates corrosion of the metals, especially aluminium, used in the engine and cooling systems. Ethylene glycol was developed, and soon replaced methanol as an engine cooling system antifreeze. It has a very low volatility compared to methanol and to water.

[d2dave]

My alternator died today:( but hey I can not complain. 340,000 km and in the six years I have owned it I have spent very little on it. As it had to happen soon I am happy that it went not to far from home and during daylight.:).

Dave.

[Judo]

My alternator died today:( but hey I can not complain. 340,000 km and in the six years I have owned it I have spent very little on it. As it had to happen soon I am happy that it went not to far from home and during daylight.:).

Dave.
Nice to see you're looking on the bright side. Does it help today's a public holiday? ;)

[Davo]

I found this helpful: GM Radiator Manufacturer. Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.gm-radiator.com/?page=faq)

[isuzurover]

How crap are these engines???

I just pulled down my 300 that had a top end rebuild less than 5000 km ago. 6 of the 8 lash caps have worn through!!! I may as well omit them when reassembling!

[d2dave]

Lash caps? Are these the small round things that that go between the top of the valve stem and the rocker arm?

Dave.

[isuzurover]

Lash caps? Are these the small round things that that go between the top of the valve stem and the rocker arm?

Dave.

Yes. Genuine lash caps, valve clearances correctly adjusted, new RX super oil, <5000 km.

[d2dave]

I have just put a new head on mine. Engine has done 338,000 clicks. Lash caps looked ok and went back in.

Dave.

[rick130]

How crap are these engines???

I just pulled down my 300 that had a top end rebuild less than 5000 km ago. 6 of the 8 lash caps have worn through!!! I may as well omit them when reassembling!

Something wrong there Ben.

I lost a set about 150,000km ago and the new ones have been fine since.

Yours have either missed out on the hardening or something's missing from that batch of RX-Super ?

[wrinklearthur]

I just pulled down my 300 that had a top end rebuild less than 5000 km ago. 6 of the 8 lash caps have worn through!

Wear like that means the oil hasn't been flowing correctly to the top end, check to see if the oil galleys that feed up from the bottom end somehow have not been partially or fully blocked off.

First thing, where are the identification holes in your head gasket, they should be on the back LHS ( looking at the front of the motor )?

Then there a chance a small lump of silicon or rubbish is caught somewhere, the oil way hole in the head gasket could have something blocking it, as it is very small for to reduce the oil flow to the head in normal circumstances?
I am wondering if a piece of stiff fine wire could be passed back down the oil galley from where the rocker shaft sits to try and see if that hole is clear.

It is possible that something is in the oil galley in the block, dropping back down into the motor then is only lifted up into the hole in the head gasket when the motor speeds up.

By turning the motor over with the starter motor should be enough to bring oil up to the rockers and then open the last bung in the oil galley that runs along the RHS of the block ( looking at the front of the motor ), by opening it up and giving the starter a few turns should be enough to get rid of anything in that oilway, use plenty of rag as it will be messy.
Good luck!
.

[wrinklearthur]

Something wrong there Ben.
I lost a set about 150,000km ago and the new ones have been fine since.
Yours have either missed out on the hardening or something's missing from that batch of RX-Super ?

I will go and have a look at the rocker shaft I have for my spare motor and check to see if the holes can be misaligned, when that shaft is installed.
.

[isuzurover]

Something wrong there Ben.

I lost a set about 150,000km ago and the new ones have been fine since.

Yours have either missed out on the hardening or something's missing from that batch of RX-Super ?

Given that 2 were as-new, and the others were completely worn through (worse than when I pulled the engine down the first time (with ~260k on the clock) I suspect it may be the bolded bit.

Everything was nice and oily up top. No evidence of lack of oil.

As for the RX Super - we test each batch in the lab as we also use it for experiments, so would know if something was amiss there.

[wrinklearthur]

I will go and have a look at the rocker shaft I have for my spare motor and check to see if the holes can be misaligned, when that shaft is installed.
.

Nice and oily ! that can only leave the hardness of those caps .
.

[rick130]

I was going to upload a series of tests the other day which show when my lash caps went south (and the big ends on later tests, but I haven't worked out yet how to edit some bits out of the PDF ??)

The Fe levels don't change much but the PQ index goes through the roof.
Basically the chunks are so big a normal particle sample test doesn't pick it up, nor did the lab.

[isuzurover]

I was going to upload a series of tests the other day which show when my lash caps went south (and the big ends on later tests, but I haven't worked out yet how to edit some bits out of the PDF ??)

The Fe levels don't change much but the PQ index goes through the roof.
Basically the chunks are so big a normal particle sample test doesn't pick it up, nor did the lab.

Hi Rick,

Adobe acrobat professional allows you to select pics from a pdf. Otherwise print screen, paste into paint and cut and paste image you want to an image file.

Back on the topic - I may have found the fault. The rocker oil feed is the little drilling in the front right corner of the block/head??? It seems that the head hasket holes don't line up properly, which may be restricting oil flow...

[wrinklearthur]

Oh Dear! It's my turn for the oil no go woes

It's 'Fred' turn to not wanting to play, I turned the near completed motor over yesterday arvo with the starter motor and without the glow plugs in.

After a long session winding it over there is no oil appearing at the nipple where the oil line normally connected and then goes up to the turbo, nor is there any oil showing at where I pulled the oil light switch out.

This isn't good, as I did prime the oil pump through the hole, before I fitted the oil pickup back in.

The oil pump is one thing I hadn't disturbed as the wear in the rest of the motor didn't seem to warrant it.

Is it possible for the inside portion of the oil pump to spin on the crankshaft? as the front harmonic balancer is only tightened up a bit at this stage.

Is there some other way of priming the oil ways in the motor or should I just pull it down again and replace the oil pump?
.

[d2dave]

I had a look in the manual and the picture shows a keyway in the pump gear so it should still work with a loose balancer.

Dave.

[wrinklearthur]

I had a look in the manual and the picture shows a keyway in the pump gear so it should still work with a loose balancer.

Thanks Dave

My thoughts are now the same, as I had a look at a spare that I have here.

Just in case there is a air lock, I will try and back fill the oil ways with a pump and see if that will get the engine's oil pump working.

So I'm looking at the possibility of the relief valve being stuck open, as even a worn pump should move some oil.

Does anyone know of a schematic of the oil galley's for the 300TDi ?
.

[bee utey]

Pump a litre or two into the oil pressure switch port. You will feel the pressure build up if all is well and your hand pump hose doesn't jump off and spray oil everywhere...;)

[wrinklearthur]

Looking at my spare cover-timing belt-inner (ERR4664), which houses the oil pump.
I dismantled the pump out of my spare housing and have found what I believe is the problem, the one face in the timing belt cover that is common to the oil pump has score marks in it, this would stop the pump picking up the oil.

Had a look how much another would cost and the best is Turner Engineering UK
ERR 4664 Cover - timing belt, In stock, Price: £190.00, freight would be extra.

The next thing I am going to do is ask the young bloke down the road how much it would be to machine and fit a wear plate into the housing.
I do have some two part liquid metal here and that may be worth a try as well.
Collective thoughts are now required for the best way to do this repair.
.

[PAT303]

The best way,190 pounds from Turners.Did you prime the pump?. Pat

[d2dave]

I would have my doubts about whether this would be your problem. Oil pumps are generally very reliable and I am sure that a lot of high mileage TDI's, mine included, would have far from perfectly smooth housings and are still working ok.

Can we have some pictures?

Dave.

[wrinklearthur]

The best way,190 pounds from Turners. Did you prime the pump?. Pat

Yes Pat, did do that


----This isn't good, as I did prime the oil pump through the hole, before I fitted the oil pickup back in----- .

Looking at the spare cover where the oil pump is, the scoring isn't that deep.
So given that the pump is a low pressure high volume type, those score marks would soon fill up and would not be a problem at any speed from idle and upwards.

Back to the drawing board!

I wish I had a setup already made that I could force oil back into the motor, when you sit and ponder Freds plight, it then stares you back in the eye,
----!!! https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/513.jpg (http://www.cool-smileys.com/smiley-with-a-light-bulb-above-his-head) !!!!
the vacuum pump! :clap2:
a length of clear plastic hose coupled to the vacuum pump and back to the nipple where the pipe goes from up to the turbo.

It took about 15 seconds the create the vacuum to prime the pump again! , Fred has lubricant! Fred Lives! :arms:

[DiscoGav]

Your an ideas man Good stuff :)

[isuzurover]

Can someone please confirm that this is the oil feed for the rocker shaft?

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/309.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/304.jpg

[wrinklearthur]

Can someone please confirm that this is the oil feed for the rocker shaft?

That is the oil feed hole, but it is definitely not where the hole for the oil feed should be.
It looks like in the photo, you have overlaid the head gasket with a misplaced hole over another that has the hole cut in the correct place and it is easy to see that the oil way was blocked off.

I just came back inside after picking up the newspaper (shh! don't tell anyone that I was still in my pyjamas), while I was outside I studied a old head gasket that I had not thrown out.
Looking at it's oil way hole, I noticed that the build up of carbon rubbish around that hole had reduced the size in the opening to less than 2mm and the motor that head gasket was from, had not shown any signs of oil starvation in the top end.

[isuzurover]

That is the oil feed hole, but it is definitely not where the hole for the oil feed should be.
It looks like in the photo, you have overlaid the head gasket with a misplaced hole over another that has the hole cut in the correct place and it is easy to see that the oil way was blocked off.

I just came back inside after picking up the newspaper (shh! don't tell anyone that I was still in my pyjamas), while I was outside I studied a old head gasket that I had not thrown out.
Looking at it's oil way hole, I noticed that the build up of carbon rubbish around that hole had reduced the size in the opening to less than 2mm and the motor that head gasket was from, had not shown any signs of oil starvation in the top end.

That is a multiplate gasket. The centre plate(s) are punched in the middle, the top and bottom are offset as you can see in the picture.

The old gasket (just removed) is identical. Things looked nice and oily around the tappets, (and the tappets weren't overly noisy surprisingly) but obviously not enough!

I ordered an Elring, but Paddocks said, "you have ordered the new style head, but an old style head gasket, do you want the new style". I foolishly assumed the "new style" gasket would also be an elring.

[uninformed]

That is a multiplate gasket. The centre plate(s) are punched in the middle, the top and bottom are offset as you can see in the picture.

The old gasket (just removed) is identical. Things looked nice and oily around the tappets, (and the tappets weren't overly noisy surprisingly) but obviously not enough!

I ordered an Elring, but Paddocks said, "you have ordered the new style head, but an old style head gasket, do you want the new style". I foolishly assumed the "new style" gasket would also be an elring.

What is elring? And even if that is the new style gasket, Should those holes be offset like that or line up...If they wanted to restrick flow wouldn't they just reduce the dia???

[isuzurover]

What is elring? And even if that is the new style gasket, Should those holes be offset like that or line up...If they wanted to restrick flow wouldn't they just reduce the dia???

Elring - Home - Start page (http://www.elring.de/index_en.php)

Yes I am sure the offset of the holes is not intentional.

[uninformed]

so the elring was the old style, which is composite, correct? and the new one, has that any branding or country of origin on it or its box?

[isuzurover]

so the elring was the old style, which is composite, correct? and the new one, has that any branding or country of origin on it or its box?

Elring make very good quality (composite) gaskets. I believe they are OEM suppliers for many vehicles.

AFAIK the Tdi did not use an elring gasket OE, rather used a multiplate gasket such as in the picture above.

The gasket in the picture has a Bearmach sticker on the packaging.

[uninformed]

Ben, I just took a look (and some pics) of a spare brand new Genuine MWM International (hs2.8tgv) head gasket. I had to order 2 different thickness. Anyway, it it the same as yours. Yep the holes in that location are stagered. If I hold it up to the light I can see through it, but the passage would be, say, 1/3 of the dia of the pressed holes......

[justinc]

Elring make very good quality (composite) gaskets. I believe they are OEM suppliers for many vehicles.

AFAIK the Tdi did not use an elring gasket OE, rather used a multiplate gasket such as in the picture above.

The gasket in the picture has a Bearmach sticker on the packaging.

Elring ARE OE for 200 and 300Tdi. Thats why they last for 250 K and 15+ years. That is actually pretty good for a high boost diesel engine composite material gasket.

JC

[uninformed]

Hi JC, are those holes in Ben's and my gaskets correct, ie: stagered? Would you use a composite gasket in a full rebuild with decked block and head?

[justinc]

Hi Serg, can;t comment on those holes maybe it is their way of obtaining a particular orifice size?

I would use a composite Elring still. Have great success with them and I am no risk taker:D

IF you were to use a shim type gasket, freshly machined surfaces are when I would do it. Having said that, Td5's are fine with them even with dodgy looking block faces....

JC

[Tank]

My laminated metal head gasket has worked on a non machined block surface and with a warped head, where 3 composite gaskets blew in quick succession.
What is the reasoning behind having to have both head and block surfaces machined before fitting a metal laminated gasket.
The only instructions for fitting was that both surfaces be clean and use no lube/gasket cement., Regards Frank.

[d2dave]

Elring ARE OE for 200 and 300Tdi. Thats why they last for 250 K and 15+ years. That is actually pretty good for a high boost diesel engine composite material gasket.

JC

Mine lasted 15 and a 1/2 years and 338,000km.

Dave.

[justinc]

My laminated metal head gasket has worked on a non machined block surface and with a warped head, where 3 composite gaskets blew in quick succession.
What is the reasoning behind having to have both head and block surfaces machined before fitting a metal laminated gasket.
The only instructions for fitting was that both surfaces be clean and use no lube/gasket cement., Regards Frank.

My experiences have been the exact opposite. There isn't enough compression in the gasket in a micro sense to take up every little unevenness etc whereas a composite one will 'fill' those irregularities.

JC

[lokka]

Well My horror story started last sunday arvo half way between nowendoc and tamworth on the thunderbolts way in my newyly purchased 97 D1 SE TDI manual 221k with full service history since new i picked it up on the teusday after easter from a dealer here in newcastle .

Last friday id had the D1 3 days and it developed a smoky exhaust at idle which was not there thursday before easter when i test drove/inspected it but every time i drove it i could smell a light oil burn in the exhaust with the windows down once i had came to a stop in traffic .

My self and another local fourm buddy/TDI owner who also inspected the truck prior to purchase put the oil smoke down to sticky rings from sitting not being run much and maby being babied and that a good run would probably sort it out .

Well after a oil change friday arvo the idle smoke got worse and i gave it a quick run with about an hours driving into town and back and the smoke settled back to how it was before oil change .

Sat morn we the mrs and myself set off for a good run to shake down the new truck and find if it had any probs seal rocks was our first destination and the truck ran great tho still had the smoke at idle temp gauge was reading fine for a TDI temp gauge just under half we even did a quick spin to forster and back sat arvo and all good no probs .

Sunday we set off for forster again but this time to pass through and head to glouster via nabiac all good to glouster for lunch then onto nowendoc via thunderbolts way all was great then about 20k east of nowendoc we blew a rear tyre was an old kumho which i should have changed before we went but run out of time at this point i had the bonnet up to get the jack and no sign of a hot motor so fixed tyre and away we went again with all the big up hill pulls now behind us the truck was goin like a train .

About 40 od k,s past nowendoc i noticed a trail of smoke following us which seemed to come and go then the temp gauge started mooving up hill and the stuff i thought was smoke at first had turned to white steam and the temp gauge was headed for the top of the scale so i shut her down and pulled over in the middle of nowere .

With a gurgle sound in the expansion tank i knew straight away EFFIN head gasket what to do out here so we sat and let it cool i pulled the thermostat out and refitted the neck once cooled and gathered all the water i had as well as 2 eggs from the esky we had left over from breaky .

I first filled the rad it took about 2.5 L then in through the thermo neck went 2 eggs wisked in a cup with a stick then the last of the water i had about 2 more Ltrs packed up fitted all the cooling caps and started her up it took about 10secs of cranking to get it to start and it ran rough for about a min and blew a fair bit of steam but we were away again .

After about 2k the steam had gone temp was at about 1/3 scale and it was running fine again this lasted almost 70k of easy mainly down hill or flat driving via the port stephens cutting and got us to dungowin about 25k from tamworth it was like a blessing just as we roll into town it started to get hot so i shut it down and rolled tha last 100M to the front of the only shop in town general store post office/cafe art gallery the people there were fantastic verry helpfull .

well after a good cool down and rest i refilled the rad with water from the cafe and the lady gave me some more eggs to bung it and see if we could get to tamworth but no luck once rad was full i tryed to start it again but it was hard at first i had all the coolant bungs out and it started but only ran on 3cyls the fourth was not firing and its as well as the rest were leaking into the cooling system that bad i could not get the caps back on the exp tank or top of thernmo neck so dungowin was its final resting place .

Monday just gone D1 sitting in dungowin me back home sunday night thanks to mick my brother car transporter booked and picks up disco and takes it to tamworth which is still were it is .

Got a quote today to do the work and parts grand total $3800 this was from a local LR specialist which included a whloe new every thing for the cooling system hoses belts water pump the lot i dont feel this need if it aint boke dont fix it but surly maintain .

Now i have to battle with the dealer to get this sorted any advice on getting the dealer to make fit for purpose and be of merchantable quallity like it says on fair tradings web page info ..

My plan is the turner performance head and bolts and gasket kit from the UK and to only replace or repair the dammaged bits and do the worl my self

Any advice or ideas about this would be great thanks

[d2dave]

I cooked mine that bad that it stopped. Pulled the head off, piston and bores looked good so I got a new performance head from Turners. Truck is now purring and at a cost of just under one K, I am very happy.

Dave.

[luke68]

Same here. Turners head and purring nicely.
ONE THING!!!! Get new injectors as well as they will be damaged with the overheating. 3 out of 5 of the nozzles on the end of the injector were squirting fine but the other 2 were dripping. No power or torque down low. Can't get up hills unless you scream the tits out of the engine. Starts and idles as normal only find out when you go for a drive.

Good Luck.

All up it cost me less than 2K to fix a similar problem.

[wrinklearthur]

developed a smoky exhaust at idle--------------every time i drove it i could smell a light oil burn in the exhaust. Did you look for any oil, inside the pipe going from the turbo to the intercooler? Turbo seals can fail and in my view that's more likely than crook rings.


Got a quote today to do the work and parts grand total $3800 this was from a local LR specialist which included a whloe new every thing for the cooling system hoses belts water pump the lot i dont feel this need if it aint boke dont fix it but surly maintain .If the hoses are soft and spongy, replacing those would save a lot of grief especially after a new head has been fitted. Make sure the 'P' gasket is done at the same time as it usually does leak if you disturb the water pump.


Now i have to battle with the dealer to get this sorted any advice on getting the dealer to make fit for purpose and be of merchantable quallity like it says on fair tradings web page info ..Poor dealer! it's the PO selling the car before the costs hit, that set the chain of events in motion.


My plan is the turner performance head and bolts and gasket kit from the UK and to only replace or repair the damaged bits and do the work my self
Any advice or ideas about this would be great thanksTurner are a very good organisation to deal with. :thumbsup:
Doing the work yourself is ok, but I would only tackle that job after helping and watching someone to do another one first, there are a few things that you can come across that can trip you up.
For example; knowing when to get the radiator cored, the blown gasket could have let a lot of rubbish into the coolant, get someone to show you what to look for.
.

[bigcarle]

fit an engine monitor ASAP it would have picked up ANY temp variations before the OEM gauge would have and most probably saved you $2k as they measure the METAL not the water or lack thereof, plenty of thread with these on here.
i will ad my vote for a turners head as well brilliant service, i am extremely happy

[Judo]

Edit: removed to start a thread instead. Don't know how to delete my post.