Electric Cars

[123rover50]

Electric cars crushed. Not heard of this before.

[muddymech]

Interesting slide show, a film "who killed the electric car" was made a few years ago covering what happened to the ev1.
Hydrogen cars have been around for a while, honda have one on sale in the USA for limited numbers, but they bring a heap of problems namley storgae and cost as well as ensureing its safe, the other problem is getting hyrdrogen the last figures i read was it takes 3gallons of oil to make 1 gallon of hydrogen, so a bit like the electric car (how much does it cost to make the batteries) there is still arguments as to its viability.
eventually i think we will all have some thing electric be it a hybrid of one varation or another.
ian

[zedcars]

Me
I love em!
Hybrids mostly at the moment .
I specialize in fixing these devices I don't call them vehicles.
I got trained on them a few years ago with the emphasis on Toyota but their systems are in Ford and Nissan to name just a few.
With maximum torque available at zero revolutions the power to launch is impressive compared with ICE power systems of the last century which I was taught to fix.

The transmission of power is a marvel of engineering, the focus not on the engine running on the Atkinson cycle, but the transmission and the battery (Nickle metal hydride or lithium) punching out about 250v DC to provide traction through the internal motor generator MG2.

The transmission (gearbox)is just a single speed epicyclic pack but the trick is the input motor generator MG1, which is used for instant start of the IC engine during power cycling and controlled slip of the sun wheel in the drive giving unlimited gearbox reduction ratios depending upon loads and speeds. All this with power melding of the IC engine power when the demand arises.

The system is remarkably simple mechanically but devilishly complicated when you take into account the one electric motor generator is emitting a sin wave from a simple 3mm thick ellipse rotor on the drive shaft and the other a cosine wave. So the on board computer knows exactly what each motor gen unit is doing. These two control systems are called resolver circuits and essentially 21st century industrial motor technology has met ancient motor vehicle technology to produce something quite remarkable.

The systems have come along way in ten years and with advances accelerating in the MV world as they do we will be driving them as town cars quicker than we think. I have two in the household for commuting.
Doubts on reliability???
The two units I have are Prius Mk 1 & 2.
They have 175K and 202 K miles on them respectively all operating on the same battery!

Its the future for townies and the new Chev Volt uses regular pump fuel for long runs but the engine (ICE) and the electric drive are not connected!
The engine just generates electricity for the traction motor to use.
I am a firm believer that urban and suburbanites will be buying these cars like hot cakes very soon.
Dennis
zedcars

[goingbush]

so who is going to buy a Range_E then,
LAND ROVER REVEALS ITS FIRST FULLY CAPABLE 4WD PLUG-IN DIESEL HYBRID | Land Rover International (http://www.landrover.com/gl/en/lr/about-land-rover/news-overview/2316326/)



.

[zedcars]

Toyota was a bit ahead of them on the diesel hybrid as an experimental.
I got following a pair of experimental Toyota Highlanders heading for the mountains about 4 years ago..

Here I was scudding back to my shop in my Rangie when I spied these two white nondescript "Toyts" coming up at a fair clip in the middle lane doing a good 75 mph.
The license plate showed a Detroit Michigan registration, an instant giveaway in Colorado; its a factory experimental/proving platform.
Sure enough as the two past me there were packed full of test gear and test blokes inside with "gear".

Written, more like scribbled in glass markers on the tail gate was "dslhbrd#1 & dslhbrd#2" . Hmm I thought!

Instead of peeling off to my destination I decided to follow these two units making for the mountains. The road (Interstate) gets steep going further west as you climb from 6500ft to about 8000' on the first part of the front range of the Rockies . Pushing the Rangie hard I could just keep up @ 75 with these two, then 80 then at 85 mph the LR just didn't have the grunt, I peeled off at my next exit.
Crikey talk about keep on trucking!
Dennis
zedcars

[JDNSW]

..........
I am a firm believer that urban and suburbanites will be buying these cars like hot cakes very soon.
Dennis
zedcars

Would be nice to think so (assuming electric vehicles, not hybrids), and it may happen. But there are severe hurdles to overcome. The first one is range - barring serious breakthroughs, this means they cannot be used for long distance travel, which may suit many urban dwellers who never travel anywhere except locally or where public transport is available. But most of Australia's minor towns and villages have poor or no public transport. This implies that urban dwellers need one electric and one other, perhaps hybrid, which may work for many people, but not for many others. It would help if fixed costs (registration, insurance etc) could be moved to usage costs, to encourage ownership of special purpose vehicles.

The second major problem is cost. At present, and for the foreseeable future, it is impossible to make a financial case for using an electric vehicle. Sure, the fuel and possibly maintenance costs may be lower, but these are swamped by the cost of ownership. Even for high mileage private cars (and no electric vehicle will be high mileage without solving the range problem) the cost of capital, opportunity cost, and standing charges represent about two thirds of the running costs. Because of the high initial cost, the two largest numbers, cost of capital and opportunity cost, are much higher for electric vehicles. While it is possible that change to mass production will bring the cost down (after all, as you say, these are basically simpler than IC engine vehicles) this needs much higher demand than at present, and this is unlikely to happen until the cost comes down. A bit of a chicken and egg situation.

A third major problem is that it seems unlikely that the widespread use of electric vehicles would actually reduce emissions, which is seen as a major intent of moving to electric vehicles. This is because most electricity in Australia is generated by burning coal. While large, modern coal fired power stations have an efficiency comparable with that of a modern small diesel, suggesting that the electric vehicle would be better by the proportion of non-coal power, this ignores the very real losses in efficiency in distribution of the power and the charge/discharge cycle of the vehicle battery. A separate related issue is the effect of changes in consumption patterns and indeed overall electric power use would have on both the efficiency and scale of the power grid.

The same comments that apply to electric cars also apply to hydrogen vehicles, except that they do not have the range limitation but neither do they have the inherent simplicity and reliability of electric vehicles. And it must be emphasised that hydrogen is not a primary source of energy - like electricity, it needs to be produced from a primary source of energy, with an efficiency that is very roughly the same (around 10-30%). As with the electric vehicle, it has the advantage of zero emissions at the point of use.

From a city pollution point of view the use of either electric or hydrogen vehicles has an overwhelming advantage - but then so does an efficient public transport system that would take most commuting cars off the road - and would probably cost less overall, and make cities a far better place to live.

John

[bee utey]

Within the next 10 years the economics of brown coal fired electricity will change (notwithstanding Abbot's promises) as coal seam gas replaces coal proper in generation. Electric cars are ideally suited to the city environment as short range vehicles. Just imagine all the school and shopping trips done in Leafs instead of Prados. Petrol or diesel/electric hybrids will have enough range for much of the mid-range travel and conventional vehicles will be needed for the last 25% of users.

As an aside, the website for the Australian electric vehicle association is here:

AEVA | The Australian Electric Vehicle Association Inc. (http://www.aeva.asn.au/)

Plenty of room for experimentors, hybrid-to-plug-in conversions etc. :)

[JDNSW]

Within the next 10 years the economics of brown coal fired electricity will change (notwithstanding Abbot's promises) as coal seam gas replaces coal proper in generation. Electric cars are ideally suited to the city environment as short range vehicles. Just imagine all the school and shopping trips done in Leafs instead of Prados. Petrol or diesel/electric hybrids will have enough range for much of the mid-range travel and conventional vehicles will be needed for the last 25% of users.

As an aside, the website for the Australian electric vehicle association is here:

AEVA | The Australian Electric Vehicle Association Inc. (http://www.aeva.asn.au/)

Plenty of room for experimentors, hybrid-to-plug-in conversions etc. :)

Brown coal power generation never made economic sense in Australia, and was only started in Victoria and SA in the 1940s when militant unions in the NSW coal industry threatened that security of Victoria's electricity supply. It remains to be seen whether coal seam gas will replace coal - my guess is that it will replace the growth rather than existing base load.

As for your suggestion as to the future of city vehicles - I agree your scenario is technically ideal - but then the existing pattern of vehicle use (e.g. Prados as city vehicles) is hardly technically optimum, so I have perhaps less faith than you that the population as a whole will suddenly start doing the technically optimum thing.

I suspect that in real life people do not choose a vehicle on the basis of its technical performance (if they did, how many on this forum could justify owning a four wheel drive?) - other factors come in - some rational (even if mistaken) such as the desire to drive a car which is easy to get in/out (i.e. high, like the Prado), but others simply following a fashion - something notoriously difficult to predict or guide.

John

[Tombie]

I think there needs to be incentive to be able to 'have your cake and eat it too'

Make EV style vehicles.... Cheap / Subsidised

Rego them for a greatly reduced sum

Fixed rate insurance (at very low rate)

Discounts on toll roads for EVs

Reduced parking costs for them in cities....


Make it that to own them as the 'town car' is so economical they are *wanted* and then people can have whatever long range vehicle they like at home...

Only a quick idea... Implementing it... well ;)

[VladTepes]

(current :lol2: ) electric cars are STUPID RUBBISH. Gimmicky and impractical.

Come back to me when they fit hydrogen fuel cells.

[zedcars]

(current :lol2: ) electric cars are STUPID RUBBISH. Gimmicky and impractical.

Come back to me when they fit hydrogen fuel cells.

Hey Vlad mate
Why don't you tell us how your really feel about leckie cars!:D

Seriously though if history is anything to go by, it will take at least 30 years to go BACK to electric cars & Hybrids.

You see the first successful cars were hybrids Ferdinand Posche's first production car was a 1898 Lohner Porsche and a hybrid to boot, the drive was pure electric with hub motors. That is what is often used today!

Then in the USA there was the Baker of Cleveland OH:-
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/automobiles/05BAKER.html?pagewanted=all


Not to mention the The Detroit which boasted 40 odd miles to a charge in 1900 on its Edison Alkali batteries! Then there was the Rausch & Lang, Studebaker, Riker plus a slew of others.
In the UK the electric vehicle never really went away it stayed as a milk float and city hauler like those by Smiths.

The attractiveness of electrics cars at the time was a the ease of use, like you didn't have to crank the bloody thing to start it, and bust your wrist in the process. (electric starters never came into use until around 1923)
That ease of use & starting was a Baker sales maxim in fact focused on American :twisted:women drivers.):o

The pitfall of these cars including the lack of range added to the cost kerb side weight of the early motor vehicles was their downfall, either by electric or ICE. Built to withstand the state of roads, or lack of them, they were heavy cumbersome and expensive to build & maintain.
Then:-

Along came Henry Ford and his model T.
Lightweight in construction, easy to build on a production line, with compliant suspension it was also cheap to buy for the masses! In fact bloody marvelous for the time!

This will happen again!
I can't see an American finding the key to open that tech door, most likely an Indian or China man, but there will be at the rate we are progressing an electric vehicle on the road that gets at least 150 miles to a charge within 20 years and it will make the "suck squeeze bang blow" version yesterday's news, that I am convinced!

In the meantime I will start my LR Disco 2 up later, knowing with all that sophisticated 19th century design are whirring around under there somewhere, and it is going to disappear--eventually. Might just so in my lifetime if fixing CanBus & OBD2 and all its complications & 250lbs of wiring loom doesn't do me in first!
. Enough grey hair to prove that!:eek:
Cheers Dennis
zedcars

[JDNSW]

.........

The pitfall of these cars including the lack of range added to the cost kerb side weight of the early motor vehicles was their downfall, either by electric or ICE. Built to withstand the state of roads, or lack of them, they were heavy cumbersome and expensive to build & maintain.
Then:-

Along came Henry Ford and his model T.
Lightweight in construction, easy to build on a production line, with compliant suspension it was also cheap to buy for the masses! In fact bloody marvelous for the time!

.......

As you say, the problem with early electric cars was the same as today - cost and range mainly.

But electric starters were earlier than you suggest - Kettering's patent was 1911, Cadillacs were fitting them in 1912, and even Ford in 1919. Electric cars were essentially done by 1914 - anyone who could afford an electric car could afford a Cadillac (or other luxury cars that quickly followed Cadillac in fitting starters).

Contrary to popular thought, the Ford T was not designed for mass production - Introduced in 1908, like all its competitors, it was hand built. But sales were so good that mass production on a moving assembly line was introduced from 1910 in a new purpose designed factory.

The reason for its success? It was well designed, and advanced for its time. Just about the first car with a detachable cylinder head, the first to use high alloy steel for all critical components (Ford had to bully the US steel industry into catching up with Europe to supply the steel), the first to incorporate the crankcase with the cylinder block in a single casting. These and other features added up to a car that performed well, mainly because it was tough and light, and because of its relatively low cost, the result of good design (cost of manufacture was carefully thought about - Ford was making a car for the middle class, not like almost all other manufacturers, who were making cars for the wealthy. As assembly line production was introduced, cost and price came down, bringing it eventually into the price range of lower middle class, and, because of its durability, second hand to the lower class).

John

[vnx205]

There is progress being made in other forms of electric transport too.

The FXSuperbike Championship includes races for electric bikes. Last year they reduced their lap times by 10 seconds and reduced them by a further 5 second this year.

More information is available here:
Formula Xtreme News Item (http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xtremema.nsf/ae002b388f9db369ca2574ed00200523/5691BD3AE5F587C6CA257A6D00290585!OpenDocument)

evmotorcycle | Electrify your ride! (http://evmotorcycle.org/drupal_evmotorcycle/)

http://www.egrandprix.com/

The Australian teams don't have the financial backing of US and UK electric bike teams. An indication of what is possible with a bit of financial support is the the fact that a bike has recently completed a lap of the Isle of Man at an average speed of 104mph (167km/h). Apart from the fact that you have to be certifiably insane to ride a motorcycle around that course at that speed, it is interesting to note that the 100mph barrier wasn't broken by petrol powered bikes until 1957.

Electrifying stuff on the Isle of Man | Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/anything-goes/electrifying-stuff-isle-man)

[zedcars]

Thanks to you two blokes JDNSW1 & VNX205--useful posts

VNX's post on the bikes was very interesting and I will have something to really natter about the next time I pick up the phone and talk to an old mate in Perth WA.

We grew up in Gloucester UK, our fathers were raised in the same slum like neighbourhood, we shared the same name, "Williams"!
We went to opposing grammar schools and fought it out on the rugger field.
He went into electrical stuff in the same tech college as me doing motor vehicle. We chased the same girls hanging about with us biker types, he married one of them I was his best man. I am on my third--a keeper from the USA.
He went to your side & I went to this side but we have always kept in touch 'cos mates is mates!

One thing though we have always had a keen interest in electric cars, so much of our time is spent talking about them, and we have done so for more than 30 bloody years. I can hear the comment before phone-Here they bloody go again lecky cars leckie bikes!:)
Cheers Dennis
zedcars

[isuzurover]

Would be nice to think so (assuming electric vehicles, not hybrids), and it may happen. But there are severe hurdles to overcome. The first one is range - barring serious breakthroughs, this means they cannot be used for long distance travel, which may suit many urban dwellers who never travel anywhere except locally or where public transport is available. But most of Australia's minor towns and villages have poor or no public transport. This implies that urban dwellers need one electric and one other, perhaps hybrid, which may work for many people, but not for many others. It would help if fixed costs (registration, insurance etc) could be moved to usage costs, to encourage ownership of special purpose vehicles.

...

...


There is a concept/patent (and last I heard a trial in Israel) of a standard sized swappable battery pack. That would mean that instead of stopping at a servo to refuel, you would stop and swap battery packs in much the same way as you swap BBQ gas bottles now.

[123rover50]

Its all lightweight stuff, towny cars.
No one ton , 4wd or light truck motorhome etc stuff thats made to work.

[Blknight.aus]

Electric cars crushed. Not heard of this before.

everyone please refer to slide 26 and everyone say it with me..

Oh FFS...

it was almost not quite credible till that slide then it was, as is the rest of it, hogwash.

[vnx205]

Its all lightweight stuff, towny cars.
No one ton , 4wd or light truck motorhome etc stuff thats made to work.

I dunno about that.

These are electric (sort of). :D:D:D

http://www.miningtopnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/Komatsu-960E-1-Mining-Truck-1.jpg

Komatsu America Corp. Announces New 960E-1 Mining Truck - Mining Top News (http://www.miningtopnews.com/komatsu-america-corp-announces-new-960e-1-mining-truck.html)

[Davehoos]

There is a concept/patent (and last I heard a trial in Israel) of a standard sized swappable battery pack. That would mean that instead of stopping at a servo to refuel, you would stop and swap battery packs in much the same way as you swap BBQ gas bottles now.

based on mobile phone system.Israel organisation has permision to set up system in OZ.At a presentation last year they gave the example that it works in small countries like europe.but to get into the USA they have to prove it can work in OZ.the presentation called australia 6 island with conections.operating in th city close to recharge points or battery swaps on open road.

range is 150Km between stationscharge lasts up to 200Km.charge the car from a home [smart grid] and the car sends a bill to your account--not the point of charge.

taxi are operating with the system in japanchanging battery at end of shift in automated process.

Why do you think that smart grid/smart meters are being rolled out in bizare trial areas like upper hunter[new england hyway]????.

[JDNSW]

........

Why do you think that smart grid/smart meters are being rolled out in bizare trial areas like upper hunter[new england hyway]????.

Smart meters have become an essential tool for electricity distributors since wholesale electricity prices started to vary according to instantaneous demand. Nothing to do with electric cars. (Also nothing to do with saving the customer money!) Eventuyally they will be everywhere.

John

[superquag]

What is the point of using hydrocarbons to dig up the coal, burn it to make steam to drive turbines to drive the alternators... then carry the electricity all over the place through several voltage changes, and to your house/recharge station. Then reduce the voltage(?) and rectify to DC to charge a storage battery....

Why not just make steam on board and drive your car with it.....?

The Last Great Steam Car • Damn Interesting (http://www.damninteresting.com/the-last-great-steam-car/)

[JDNSW]

What is the point of using hydrocarbons to dig up the coal, burn it to make steam to drive turbines to drive the alternators... then carry the electricity all over the place through several voltage changes, and to your house/recharge station. Then reduce the voltage(?) and rectify to DC to charge a storage battery....

Why not just make steam on board and drive your car with it.....?


Steam offers few, if any, advantages over the internal combustion engine. It shares with electric vehicles the advantage of being inherently silent and simple - but to achieve instant starting that is inherently available with the IC engine, it becomes very complex and expensive. And has to compete with a hundred years of development of the IC engine with by comparison, practically nothing spent on steam.

And steam still requires hydrocarbon fuel, and is, in practice, less efficient than a petrol engine, and far less efficient than a small diesel. Emissions would be comparable with a modern IC engine. All the historical evidence suggests that even the best steam car today would have no advantage over the current IC engines, but would be far more expensive and use more hydrocarbon fuel.

So the question has to be not "Why not?", but "Why?".

John

[superquag]

Did you check that link ?

Some comments from the horses' mouth...

"...WALTER C. BAKER:—Why is an efficiency twice that of a gasoline car claimed?

ABNER DOBLE:—Everything depends upon what you mean by "efficiency." We know that 18 per cent thermal efficiency is obtainable from a gasoline engine running at full load. We also know that cars do not run at full rated load much more than 1 per cent of the time. .When running at 20 or 25 m.p.h. about 5 hp. is required to drive the car. Under such light load the ordinary engine will have a thermal efficiency of about 4.5 to 5.0 per cent.

The highest thermal efficiency we know of to-day with the steam powerplant is about 21.8 per cent at its full rated load. This is obtained by using a combustion system in which the air is preheated, at the risk of burning out the grate bars. The Doble steam generator has no grate bars, but uses a refractory material that we developed. It will stand about 3400 deg. F. before it fuses. The temperature attained in our fire box is about 2600 deg. F. The air is preheated to 200 deg. before it enters the carbureter, by utilizing about one-third the heat that would otherwise go out of the stack. The boiler efficiency without the economizer is about 82 per cent. This is equivalent to standard practice in boilers.

With our boiler we can increase the efficiency about 4 per cent by the economizer and by using a regenerator, which can be placed on the end of the stack, we can raise the boiler efficiency to about 92 per cent.
The best net thermal efficiency that we have been able to secure from our powerplant is about 16 per cent under full load. With the 5 hp. load imposed when a car is driven at 25 m.p.h., we realize 14 per cent net thermal efficiency.

My car, which was built three years ago, and is crude in some ways, has been driven almost 40,000 miles. It will run 15 miles to the gallon of kerosene under favorable conditions, and will average about 11.5 miles per gallon, although I drive through traffic and mud a part of the time. The old type of steam car never ran more than 7 miles per gallon...."

Hmmm, not that far removed from a LR V8. - and with HEAPS more torque.. in a car around twice the weight.

IMHO, the builders of Yesterday's steam cars - especially Doble - did a better job with what they had... than many more recent car-makers achieve. By the way, BMW is, AFAIK, still working on a waste-heat steam turbine to provide electric power... and save 10% fuel...

[isuzurover]

Did you check that link ?

Some comments from the horses' mouth...

"...WALTER C. BAKER:—Why is an efficiency twice that of a gasoline car claimed?

ABNER DOBLE:—Everything depends upon what you mean by "efficiency." We know that 18 per cent thermal efficiency is obtainable from a gasoline engine running at full load. We also know that cars do not run at full rated load much more than 1 per cent of the time. .When running at 20 or 25 m.p.h. about 5 hp. is required to drive the car. Under such light load the ordinary engine will have a thermal efficiency of about 4.5 to 5.0 per cent.

The highest thermal efficiency we know of to-day with the steam powerplant is about 21.8 per cent at its full rated load. This is obtained by using a combustion system in which the air is preheated, at the risk of burning out the grate bars. The Doble steam generator has no grate bars, but uses a refractory material that we developed. It will stand about 3400 deg. F. before it fuses. The temperature attained in our fire box is about 2600 deg. F. The air is preheated to 200 deg. before it enters the carbureter, by utilizing about one-third the heat that would otherwise go out of the stack. The boiler efficiency without the economizer is about 82 per cent. This is equivalent to standard practice in boilers.

With our boiler we can increase the efficiency about 4 per cent by the economizer and by using a regenerator, which can be placed on the end of the stack, we can raise the boiler efficiency to about 92 per cent.
The best net thermal efficiency that we have been able to secure from our powerplant is about 16 per cent under full load. With the 5 hp. load imposed when a car is driven at 25 m.p.h., we realize 14 per cent net thermal efficiency.

My car, which was built three years ago, and is crude in some ways, has been driven almost 40,000 miles. It will run 15 miles to the gallon of kerosene under favorable conditions, and will average about 11.5 miles per gallon, although I drive through traffic and mud a part of the time. The old type of steam car never ran more than 7 miles per gallon...."

Hmmm, not that far removed from a LR V8. - and with HEAPS more torque..


:D - so you believe anything you read on the internet???

So - your link says a steam power station can have 21.8% thermal efficiency. The best diesels are ~52%.

Put that in your boiler and smoke it... :p

[superquag]

:D - so you believe anything you read on the internet???

So - your link says a steam power station can have 21.8% thermal efficiency. The best diesels are ~52%.

Put that in your boiler and smoke it... :p

:):):)

Nope, just treat the 'net like any unseen "Source", like newspapers, magazines, Forums, Trade journals and a Mate-of-a-mate...

Depends a bit on how rubbery the 'efficiency' figures are, but I don't doubt modern diesels are producing the goods....:angel:

A well designed/maintained boiler drinking a lightweight liquid fuel won't produce any 'smoke'...:p:p:p - We've all read about the joys of DPF's in the latest transport diesel engines... :mad:

Wonder what BMW engineers are smoking... they're looking at utilising waste heat to generate steam... to generate electricity... Claim 10 % reduction in fuel consumption.

Us V-8 slaves would welcome that sort of reduction ...:eek:

[zedcars]

Well you blokes EVEN the Pope is being a holier shade of green than thou & than most of us!:o:D
Pope goes green with electric car - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/pope-goes-green-electric-car-165652510.html)

A green benediction upon all the nay sayers!:D
Cheers Dennis
(Now doing his spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch!):o:D
zedcars

[superquag]

http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/34761/photographer+captures+stunning+images+of+rare+viol ent+electrical+storm/

The Pope appears to be Energised by the Power from on high, (:angel:) not the heat & steam from Down Below, (:twisted:)

- I am suitably chastised for my heresy...

Amen...

[SuperMono]

(current :lol2: ) electric cars are STUPID RUBBISH. Gimmicky and impractical.

Come back to me when they fit hydrogen fuel cells.

No problem, do you happen to have a nearby cheap source of hydrogen for the refill and the energy to keep the liquid cool in storage?
Otherwise using hydrogen for personal vehicles is impractical, a bit of a gimmick really.
:D

Maybe the answer is to make hydrogen using petrol (or natural gas) out of the existing fossil based logistics system. Then fill up the fuel cells in your personal car so that the electricity can be used to turn the wheels :)